Long Game 78: The Legend of Zelda: The False Heroes

[YeetAroundABush]

9 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

YeetAroundABush

this makes more sense with context

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

8 hours ago, Archer said:

Beedle

Biplet, are items distributed after Beedle dies? Does Beedle have neutral alignment?

Barring that, the role is certainly village, as an e!Beedle would funnel items solely to their teammates and create a serious power imbalance. V!Beedle should mostly give items to villagers, using reads to better manage the distribution as the game progresses. The elims get items from those they kill, but will be disadvantaged by an insightful Beedle, so I expect they have a strong team to compensate. The elims should kill a Beedle that isn’t granting their item requests, so claiming should be a last resort.

Zelda and Link

They should both request a Tireless Frog today so Beedle knows who they are. If three people request one, the third is an elim poser. To protect their identities, none of us should roleclaim. I expect any elim in danger of being exed will claim to be a confirmed good role, either to survive or help their team discover valuable information in the event of a counter-claim. We therefore cannot rely on mechanical analysis alone; everyone please do your part to be village read so we can gauge the likelihood of an eleventh hour claim being true without relying on counter-claims.

Master Kohga, Mipha, Urbosa, Daruk

Kohga’s superkiller role seems designed to prevent a confirmed good role claiming and being protected throughout the entire game. The wincon of only needing to kill one confirmed good (plus parity) also seems designed to circumnavigate the Mipha bodyguard finding a confirmed good and Kohga having already used his kill/being killed potentially making an unwinnable situation for the elims. To balance a v!Mipha, I’d guess the elims either have Daruk (Thug) and/or Urbosa (roleblocker). Daruk would be of more use.

Sheikah

And of course, being able to see roles would help too. Given we have scanner Zelda already, there’s a good chance they GMs sought balance by giving the evil team Sheikah. Village scanner Zelda and Revali vs evil Sheikah seems balanced. 

Revali and King Rhoam Bosphoramus Hyrule

Being able to see who people target seems fairly weak for either team, so my gut says it’s village. The King’s role is also weak, but it replicates the Mighty Bananas, which v!Beedle hands out, so I’m guessing it’s evil.

Knights and Postmen

As previously stated, there’s probably multiples of these. The Knights can redirect kills, or scans from Zelda, so they’re a good elim asset. The Postmen can either catch unwary villagers off guard or be a great counter to the elim doc. Their goal should be to get a confirmed good into a PM so they buddy can counter-claim in thread instead of them if it comes to it.

So in a twenty-six-person game, we could be looking at: V!Zelda, Link, Beedle, Mipha, Urbosa, Revali, Postman, Postman, Knight, +11 vs E!Kohga, Sheikah, King, Daruk, Knight, +1. With a village alignment scanner, who can create a towncore between their scans and the confirmed good roles late in the game, this seems pretty balanced. Still not sure about the amount of vanilla though. Maybe there's some more postmen/knights thrown in there? 

Those who have played the video game may have some additional insight into the alignment of roles based on the alignments and personalities of the roles’ namesakes. If there’s someone infamous for being traitorous, that might be a clue. But it’s impersonation flavour, so that might be a dead end.

Not sure how I feel about pegging each role with an alignment with that degree of confidence.

I would say that making such bold assertions and hasty speculations about a role's alignment right out of the gates is a vaguely villagery thing, if Biplet hadn't proven me soundly wrong on that count in the previous LG 

In any case I don't really think being Beedle is alignment indicative. Like, none of the items are that strong, I don't really see a balance problem with it, so I could see an elim!Beedle who gets tradeoffs between buffing teammates or pocketing villagers (basically what Matrim was claiming was going on with Nicroburst!Szeth in LG77). I uh, may have put a somewhat similar evil role in a game once  All things held equal though, I would very much like items to stay in the game 

But supposing Link and Zelda did want to follow your plan, shouldn't they ask for durian instead of frogs...?

Idk how I feel about asking peeps to do their part to be village read

Hm, I guess the presence of Kohga is at least a strong hint that the protect role is likely to be village, at least. Assuming the role is unique, which I am doing.

I kinda expect an evil King Rhoam as well tbh, but my reasoning for this is shaky and two thirds based on writeup content, so basically take it with a couple thousand grains of salt and you'll be good.

7 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Kazs strummed his ukulele and wondered why everyone was so verbose. Far too many letters for his taste, thank you very much, and all this whispering and hiding beneath mysterious hoods and sticking heads around corners wasn't much better. He was surprised the champions had hidden themselves so well, but especially the princess and the champion that guarded her—then again, Kazs had no desire to see either of them bleeding out on the end of a Yiga knife. If you couldn't even trust the princess or the champion who wielded the Master Sword, who else could you trust, in this bloody palace?

Enough people were throwing out theories about who could be Yiga. Kazs wasn't about to throw his hat into the ring, though he wondered at the insistence that Beedle was on their side. The Princess was, that was for certain. As was her champion, the one they named Link. But Beedle? Revali? The other champions? Kazs did not know. He thought to himself that the issue was almost usually that you could never tell prima facie who the Yiga had replaced; in truth, the real question was how the scales would be balanced to accommodate such a shift. 

Zelda seeing
Link the swordsman
Kohga hidden
The perilous threat

Grace, by Mipha
Calling new dawn
Daruk the rock
And Hylia I'm stuck

This was more attention and energy that Kazs wanted to give his little bit of doggerel, when Yiga assassins were out to kill them. As far as Kazs was concerned, initial guesses were decent enough but what they really needed was to be able to gather more data to make sense of what the forces arrayed against them were.

Just for old times' sake, Kazs thought to himself. If Zoel [= @DrakeMarshall] wasn't Ezlo in disguise, Kazs would eat that hat and sing for his supper.

Ezlo?! Who's Ezlo????

My name is clearly Zoel, not Ezlo, as evidenced by my glorious and completely genuine and tape-free moustache. Whoever this Ezlo character is, though, they sound very intelligent. And handsome.

Anyway, if ever you need my insight, press SELECT. I'll be happy to help!

7 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I agree that Beedle is probably village, but I think you could also build an elim team specifically around him being evil as well. Striker doesn’t have a huge reputation for being a troll GM (yet), but I guess my stance would be more on the side of role safety than not. I’d rather not lose the game before it has really started.

I mean, it's not a terrible gamble to make, honestly. Even though I agree that Beedle is not necessarily village, the potential payoffs are tempting. Idk.

Then again Archer's plan would require that everyone cooperates with it, which tbh I have doubts about the viability of.

6 hours ago, Archer said:

Huh. I was sure the balance was that they were neutral. I guess them being NKable is enough to deter a claim

Updated plan: we hedge out bets. Only Zelda requests a Frog, while Link avoids signalling their identity. Either we get double scans throughout the game, or we lose a key player but at least the game isn't over. I'd rather tackle this head on than waffle and eventually decide to trust them anyway. Either it'll be a bad idea now and we'll know sooner rather than later that the item pipeline will be dry, or it'll be a bad idea later when Beedle claims and we all go yeah, they're probably fine. Probably. I suspect we'll all trust them at exlo if it comes to it and we have to play balance of probability, so why not trust them now and make the most of it? 

Also, Mat mentioned Sheikah isn't actually a name but a generic role, so there's probably multiples of them. Good catch

Yeah a neutral gift-giver role is a fun time. I have a Nightwatcher role pretty similar to this in one of my google docs somewhere... Would have been cool to see how that played out.

Anyways with regards to the hedging of bets, it really should only be Zelda who reveals no matter what. I guess the question I'm asking here is, what are the actual benefits of village!Beedle knowing who Zelda and Link are? For Zelda, a village!Beedle might side with Zelda in votes, which is pretty useful since Zelda should be better informed, but for Link it doesn't really help us much. So yeah.

6 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Of everyone posted so far, feeling super good about Archer. After reading Mat's post, I was about to disagree with him that Beedle not be village, but Archer's point that it would make it easy for e!Beedle to supply the elims with whatever they need to too OP even for trolly!Striker to come up with. I don't see how to build an elim team around Beedle.

The overall though process of the post as well, seems very village-ish. Though there is a flaw with 'go for Frog' plan as I wouldn't advice making deductions based on item requests because here you're assuming all the villagers will not go for it, and also that Zelda/Link might go for the double life item.

Edit: Ninja'd by Archer's latest post. That is a much better plan, and yeah it only increased the village read of you. Still unsure if all the other villagers would follow through the plan, or if Zelda/Link are on board too. As I said, IKYK situations like Zelda not going for the Frog but an elim going for it might lead to Beedle hard clearing the elim.

Smh everyone village reading Archer all the time 

6 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Mostly quoting this just to note that the differences between my and Archer's assessments, which I find somewhat interesting but also expected  Archer, does realizing that the Sheikah are in fact the and not a make your guess different?

Yeah, I agree that Zelda and probably Link should claim if up for the exe, but it still potentially could be nice if she scans an elim. Like I said, weigh the benefits if that happens. The Postman idea is a good point, seeing as an elim Postman who tries to do anything tricky would be immediately outed.

It did occur to me that a smaller team with e!Beedle is a possibility, but I agree with you in that it probably isn't the case. I don't really love 'probably' though so I'll join the hordes in being cautious of this.

If this is the plan, why choose Zelda to signal instead of Link? I mean I get the double scans but a single scan is still better than a dead Zelda :P.

Mostly I'm curious just to see how many people will ignore this plan altogether. Like, there's no way for that curiosity to be fulfilled until the Aftermath and the GM spreadsheet, but I still wonder  

Yeah, that's why I said Beedle is very likely village, I just didn't mention exactly why I said that I guess. The way to balance it would be Beedle plus like one or two more, maybe both vanilla, so that their team is underpowered but gets free items. It's technically possible but unlikely.

Hmmm I could read into your role based on this if I was so inclined 

Imo scans are often better than kills and also its much more useful for a village!beetle to know who a scanner is than it is to know who a vig is, so I do think there are solid reasons for it to be Zelda and not Link. But yeah, I kinda doubt the plan will go off without a hitch.

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, YeetAroundABush said:

this makes more sense with context

Indeed  

The following signifies an unvote: YeetAroundABush  

3 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

In any case I don't really think being Beedle is alignment indicative. Like, none of the items are that strong, I don't really see a balance problem with it, so I could see an elim!Beedle who gets tradeoffs between buffing teammates or pocketing villagers (basically what Matrim was claiming was going on with Nicroburst!Szeth in LG77). I uh, may have put a somewhat similar evil role in a game once  All things held equal though, I would very much like items to stay in the game 

I mean, I was evil in that game and trying to come up with any reason I could to justify my fake tunnel, so I don't really know if that's the best example  Kinda surprised you're using it, honestly, wouldn't have guessed you would use that considering you were one of the most vocal against the likelihood of elim!Szeth that game :P.

[Biplet she/her]

5 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

if Biplet hadn't proven me soundly wrong on that count in the previous LG 

(i'm gonna ride the high of that forever)

[Kasimir he/him]

28 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Ezlo?! Who's Ezlo????

My name is clearly Zoel, not Ezlo, as evidenced by my glorious and completely genuine and tape-free moustache. Whoever this Ezlo character is, though, they sound very intelligent. And handsome.

Anyway, if ever you need my insight, press SELECT. I'll be happy to help!

I'd like to know more about this product before I subscribe with SELECT 

[Steeldancer he/him]

56 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Do have to agree that this is pretty much normal Illwei... maybe a bit more chaotic than usual, but I'm blaming that on her just coming off from MU Champs especially after pulling a slight urist

So is this mainly normal for them? That's good to hear. 

I'm still objecting to the utter chaos through my vote, but I guess that's not indicative of suspicious behavior. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

 

9 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

It's nice to see you too Stick. If it helps, I used the old "who hasn't posted yet, point and pick" method. Stick

Ah, that time-honored method never fails 

9 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I still think it’s too risky - suppose this plan does go ahead and Zelda gets that frog thing. Whenever Zelda does decide to use this item and an elim scanner happens to be scanning Zelda during this time and sees that two people have been targeted by this player theyd know it’s Zelda straight away (or of Zelda decides to hold onto the frog for a while and use it later in the game, the elims would still obtain a very small pool of suspects of potential Zeldas). I realise this is kinda far fetched but hey you can never be too careful can you  

Response to @Archer’s question (for some reason it won’t quote the actual post):

Publicly calling it out would probably be the last thing I’d do, unless I have other reasons to suspect the player in question. 

Now maybe I'm readin too much into this but Stick could you walk me through why you are assuming that the elimin team includes Revali?

9 hours ago, Azmine_king said:

Hiya, read over the rules again since yall like to do a lot of setup speculation during RVS. Theres not much to say that already hasn't been said or addressed. This is a lot less complicated than other games on here and seems pretty straightforward.

Tbh this game is still fairly complicated by SE standards  Also hi

9 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

For role distribution, I'm just not gonna worry about it too much. I get balance and what not... but I've been stabbed in the back one too many times by trusting anything at all. Including what I thought was "balanced"
So I just trust no one. 
What I am worried about is winning. The best way to win, honestly, is to keep Zelda and Link completely hidden, yet protected. I have no idea how to accomplish that. So, let's do that! 
Also, how many elims would there be, if we're trying to calculate roles and whatnot?

I mean, you gots to trust some things. That's kind of our job, is to decide which things and people we are okay with trusting more than others.

Reiterating the village win con in a post feels a lil sus to me, kinda laying it on too thick I guess?

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

I think that Beedle can not be an Elim. Sure you could try and fit that all together, but in the end that means that Beedle could approve all of the Elim requests and deny all the village. or most of the village. Or at least know what each person has, which means that it makes the Elim's job much easier.

I'm going to say there's a 5 person Elim team with the Soother role. Functionally means that they can win at 6v5/5v5 and they still have a pool of 21 people that they have to-

Okay I'm modifying that. I think 6 people with the soother. I forgot about Link and Zelda for a minute. Basically they could be at 6/7 and basically almost win but it means nothing if they don't kill Link and Zelda. Even if they have it figured out, then /shrug who knows. I'm losing thoughts.

There is a roleblocker role as well, I think that if the doctor is village, then the roleblocker is an Elim and vice versa. the roleblocker and Doctor could both be an Elim, and then I would put a knight on the Elim team. more likely that there's like two village knights and an Elim roleblocker, because I think the knights are more swingy.

EDIT:

SHHHH THIS IS FINE

Why is it gamebreaking for elim!Beedle to do that? I don't get it

Five eliminators sounds potentially reasonable to me but I'd agree that we should plan for six.

Tbh I'm starting to get wary of this much early role analysis in a game where I'm judging role analysis is pretty much actively harmful to the village

Quote

EDIT2:

Hot take: If you're saying that Beedle could be an Elim, you're an Elim.

Oh rusts Illwei is on to us!!  quick burn all the evidence

9 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

Everyone that isn't Link or Zelda should roleclaim immediately  That certainly won't cause any problems. And I guess, since it's not happening in PMs, it doesn't even violate PM Safety! My role is:

Satori: The reclusive Lord of the Mountain is the fastest mount in Hyrule. Any player that targets Satori will go for a wild ride instead of their normal action. Satori wins the game and is removed if 6 players are roleblocked in this fashion.

Wait no my role is Satori, Araris must be a fake!! >:[

8 hours ago, Illwei said:

A quick note about SE theory and how I will play this game. Note that the arguments and facts presented here are indisputable, and that I will not engage in arguments about them, because those arguments are you wasting everyone else's time about meta that is well and comprehensively established. Go make reads so we can read you.

I've reflected on my role and realized that there is a GTO play for me in this game, and therefore I am compelled to pursue it. I am going to brute force my clearness immediately upon the opening of the thread.

I am hard-claiming, and I will never be rescinding. I am Zelda. When it becomes prudent I will provide my Results.

Benefits:

1. I will survive tonight: I do not believe the Elims are able to kill me tonight, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would ever do this as Zelda. I believe that this decision reduces the importance of the seer cover to be provided by all of you to the point of it being negligible. The Elims have already been outplayed, as it were.

2. I'm lock clear: All of you already know I'm lock clear, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would do this as an Elim. You know this for at least two reasons. First, this is the easiest, lowest-stress, lowest-demand game to be an Elim in that I've ever played in. I have no need to complicate my life, as an Elim, by open-claiming on thread open, when all I have to do is provide like a C-level Elim game to probably win. This is the rare instance where you literally know that I have a billion other options as an Elim, AND that I would pursue probably ALL of them before pursuing this. Second, I engage in FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) exceedingly rarely, which necessarily means that I *know* that this will look WEIRD and SHOCKING to you. There is no merit to an Elim play that instantly generates WEIRD and SHOCKED responses that I would be obligated to finesse and manage for the remainder of the game. As a villager, which I am, the burden is totally on you to not mess up and kill me. Makes my life super awesome.

3. There are only 25 players you need to try to read, rather than 26: I have already provided a "free" peek of me in a game with 26 players. Our win equity is dramatically improved by my being entirely off the table for the entire game.

Conclusion:

The burden of sound reasoning is now entirely upon you. I am Zelda, and thus a villager, and thus lock clear. The game is immediately simpler than it would otherwise have been, because of my decision. Now, let us enjoy that benefit and win the game.

Uh

Ok

I don't know how to read this

I think I like the thinking here though for reasons^TM

But its weird

...very...

7 hours ago, Archer said:

Darn, you guys got all the good ones. I just got a GM PM saying you are a Yiga Clansman, your role is to bring about the Calamity, conspire in the doc yada yada

Guys guys guys I think Archer is a fake, that isn't what the Yiga PM looks like at all 

Quote

For meta reasons (4 elim games in a row) I'm going to assume Mat isn't an elim. 

Imma just note that isn't how math works but carry on

Quote

So here are the interesting scenarios. 

1. Zelda doesn't put in an order for a Frog and an elim does, which confuses Beedle. That's bad, but I'm not sure why they'd do it, unless they think Beedle is evil. I respect their right to stay in hiding, but in this situation the elims correctly predicted that Zelda wouldn't go for it and were bold enough to make a fake submission. Which I find unlikely. 

2. Zelda and an elim both submit a request. In this scenario, Beedle now knows one is good and one is evil. They can't expose the elim until they know who Zelda is, but they can use reads to sus it out. Regardless, they've got a good lead on an elim, which is better than nothing. If they cut both off to be safe and Zelda doesn't get items, it isn't a huge loss. 

3. Most likely, only Zelda will submit a request. Because the elims don't want to risk being outed on D1. Why would you throw away your chances of a fun elim game like that? So Beedle can watch their back, and confirm their claim if they look about to be exed and need to divert a bad wagon. 

4. Beedle is evil. He kills Zelda, and funnels items to the elims and no one else. That's unfortunate, but then we know not to count on him, right? Which is better than not knowing and relying on him at a worse time. Like exlo. 

Oh hello, Illwei. Nice claim you got there. It's a shame it's not true because *rips off mask* I AM LINKOV! I mean Zelda! Yeah! 

Yeah this is pretty much the eventualities I'm thinking of too

Like it really isn't a sure thing that Beedle is good or that everyone follows the plan, but even in the cases where the plan doesn't work it most likely costs the elims something to foil it

Tbh I don't think a plan like this is going to win the game for the village but at least I promise I won't interfere with it

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

ALSO

to preempt a lengthy and pointless discussion.

It is NOT dumb to ponder this post and convince yourself of its wisdom. That is your obligation as a villager, and I encourage you to think it over for as long as it takes to quell your (initially valid but ultimately unnecessary) concerns.

It IS dumb to, AFTER doing that pondering, conclude that I'm "neutral" or "wolfy." That is legitimately stupid, and I won't entertain it. ONE of the reasons it is a stupid conclusion is that the upside of this play as a wolf is absolutely DWARFED by the upside of this play as a villager. There is no equivalency between the EV gain for wolf-me in this position and villager-me in this position. They're universes apart. That means I wouldn't DO the poorer option of the two (by extension, wolf-me also wouldn't BELIEVE that I could convince the entire game of the truth of these assertions for the entire game, which as an end-game wolf I would have to believe if this strategem were to be worth pursuing). A SECOND reason that conclusion is stupid is that the EV bonus of oding this as a wolf is COMPLETELY DWARFED by me baseline wolf EV anyway. Anything that complicates my wolfing life is RIDICULOUSLY stupid for me to do, given that my wolfing life is ALREADY one of the smoothest, highest expectation wolfing lives in WW history anyway. A THIRD reason that conclusion is stupid is that you would probably have to worry about being EXPLOITED by this gambit in order to get there. However, I have NEVER engaged in this, or any similar, gambit in my entire career, meaning that if there IS exploitation to be had with this play, it is in FUTURE GAMES, not this game. For these reasons, pressuring me is extremely wolfy and should not be engaged in by any villager, ever, in this game. There will be no less productive pursuit than that in this game.

Sucks for the wolves when meta is wielded this brutally, but my allegiance is plain and my strategy perfect. Get #rekt.

So from this I am conclusing that Illwei is either "neutral" or "wolfy" what do you guys think 

All these interspersed all-caps words are giving me Homestuck flashbacks

But anyways real talk are you really saying elim!Illwei who believed they had "one of the smoothest, highest expectation wolfing lives in WW history" wouldn't stir the pot just because?  Because I think you would.

But you get minor village points for saying the eliminators have such an easy job, bc I feel like the elims probably would be somewhat less likely to think that their job is "too easy". So congrats for that I guess 

[Mat he/him]

Drake you do realize Illwei c/pd all that from someone else in another forum’s post from like five years ago, right?  

[Kasimir he/him]

7 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Drake you do realize Illwei c/pd all that from someone else in another forum’s post from like five years ago, right?  

There was a good word for this, Kazs thought. He cleared his throat.

"Surely you have heard of the great and glorious Copypasta?"

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

16 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Drake you do realize Illwei c/pd all that from someone else in another forum’s post from like five years ago, right?  

Uh, no  lmao does someone have the link to that post I've never seen it before

[|TJ| he/him]

11 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm getting a bad feeling. The sort of bad feeling I get when Wyrm asks me to trust him. The answer is still no!]

Hey HEY, now I didn't ask you to trust me at all! I just want a chill PM with you! Hmmmmm you're being evasive smh :P.

10 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Um... it's more that we've just interacted a lot in the past then specifically me fooling him in pms? Like, restricted PMs in this game means that I can't attempt the same kind of stuff I've pulled on TJ when I used to do SE anyways.

 smh see this implies you want to pull similar stuff. *concern* indeed :P.

9 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

Not widely roleclaim, but communicating on what items I'm asking for so ten others don't go for the same item making the chances of getting the item go from how much Beedle trusts you to how much Beedle trusts you and how active and skilled you have been in past games.

Aaaand I'm getting LG73 vibes in which you were free with information, particularly with items.

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

A quick note about SE theory and how I will play this game. Note that the arguments and facts presented here are indisputable, and that I will not engage in arguments about them, because those arguments are you wasting everyone else's time about meta that is well and comprehensively established. Go make reads so we can read you.

I've reflected on my role and realized that there is a GTO play for me in this game, and therefore I am compelled to pursue it. I am going to brute force my clearness immediately upon the opening of the thread.

I am hard-claiming, and I will never be rescinding. I am Zelda. When it becomes prudent I will provide my Results.

Benefits:

1. I will survive tonight: I do not believe the Elims are able to kill me tonight, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would ever do this as Zelda. I believe that this decision reduces the importance of the seer cover to be provided by all of you to the point of it being negligible. The Elims have already been outplayed, as it were.

2. I'm lock clear: All of you already know I'm lock clear, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would do this as an Elim. You know this for at least two reasons. First, this is the easiest, lowest-stress, lowest-demand game to be an Elim in that I've ever played in. I have no need to complicate my life, as an Elim, by open-claiming on thread open, when all I have to do is provide like a C-level Elim game to probably win. This is the rare instance where you literally know that I have a billion other options as an Elim, AND that I would pursue probably ALL of them before pursuing this. Second, I engage in FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) exceedingly rarely, which necessarily means that I *know* that this will look WEIRD and SHOCKING to you. There is no merit to an Elim play that instantly generates WEIRD and SHOCKED responses that I would be obligated to finesse and manage for the remainder of the game. As a villager, which I am, the burden is totally on you to not mess up and kill me. Makes my life super awesome.

3. There are only 25 players you need to try to read, rather than 26: I have already provided a "free" peek of me in a game with 26 players. Our win equity is dramatically improved by my being entirely off the table for the entire game.

Conclusion:

The burden of sound reasoning is now entirely upon you. I am Zelda, and thus a villager, and thus lock clear. The game is immediately simpler than it would otherwise have been, because of my decision. Now, let us enjoy that benefit and win the game.

Lmaoooo I remember reading this from somewhere, I think it was the MU quiz? Or no, it was the infinite scroll mafia page? But it's definitely a copypasta :P. 

9 hours ago, Illwei said:

ALSO

to preempt a lengthy and pointless discussion.

It is NOT dumb to ponder this post and convince yourself of its wisdom. That is your obligation as a villager, and I encourage you to think it over for as long as it takes to quell your (initially valid but ultimately unnecessary) concerns.

It IS dumb to, AFTER doing that pondering, conclude that I'm "neutral" or "wolfy." That is legitimately stupid, and I won't entertain it. ONE of the reasons it is a stupid conclusion is that the upside of this play as a wolf is absolutely DWARFED by the upside of this play as a villager. There is no equivalency between the EV gain for wolf-me in this position and villager-me in this position. They're universes apart. That means I wouldn't DO the poorer option of the two (by extension, wolf-me also wouldn't BELIEVE that I could convince the entire game of the truth of these assertions for the entire game, which as an end-game wolf I would have to believe if this strategem were to be worth pursuing). A SECOND reason that conclusion is stupid is that the EV bonus of oding this as a wolf is COMPLETELY DWARFED by me baseline wolf EV anyway. Anything that complicates my wolfing life is RIDICULOUSLY stupid for me to do, given that my wolfing life is ALREADY one of the smoothest, highest expectation wolfing lives in WW history anyway. A THIRD reason that conclusion is stupid is that you would probably have to worry about being EXPLOITED by this gambit in order to get there. However, I have NEVER engaged in this, or any similar, gambit in my entire career, meaning that if there IS exploitation to be had with this play, it is in FUTURE GAMES, not this game. For these reasons, pressuring me is extremely wolfy and should not be engaged in by any villager, ever, in this game. There will be no less productive pursuit than that in this game.

Sucks for the wolves when meta is wielded this brutally, but my allegiance is plain and my strategy perfect. Get #rekt.

And I see we're continuing c/ping their posts for the rest of the game? smh Mat, don't fall for it :P. And I wanna search for this game :P.

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

hi

wait what? it's 2+2?? not the infinite scroll forum? I'm misremembering stuff smh [Edit: @DrakeMarshall, it's the hi in this post]

7 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

And yes, the roleplay got it right, I will be attempting to purchase a Hearty Durian today. I'm following through and telling you what I'm buying in the hopes that only one other person will be joining me. In other news, I'm enjoying writing this character way more than I expected. It's also pretty fun to go back and narrate the discussion that was going on.

The Unknown Order Durian is more important to Link and Zelda. You being a vanilla and going for it doesn't make sense.

Okay at this point, with how Archer is pushing the plan, I'm reading him as strong village or strong elim Beedle. Nothing in between

5 hours ago, Illwei said:

Biggest comparison i can make is in the AG i gave and denied people PMs. There was often no rhyme or reason for why i denied or granted PMs, and there might be no rhyme or reason to why beedle grants items sometimes. 

There's a difference though, you can infer things about people from the items they ask. More than you can infer stuff by knowing who's talking to whom. So, if Beedle uses the 'no rhyme no reason' method while handing out goodies, I'd be concerned :P.

3 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

In any case I don't really think being Beedle is alignment indicative. Like, none of the items are that strong, I don't really see a balance problem with it,

There definitely is a balance problem btw. 2 Durians mean 2 double lives from Link's attack, which is OP imo. Even disregarding that, they can have untrackable kills every cycle, and depending on the roles, they can use Frogs to double target scan, double roleblock and so on. It'd be a really really weird distro for there to be an elim!Beedle.

3 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

But supposing Link and Zelda did want to follow your plan, shouldn't they ask for durian instead of frogs...?

Also agreed. 

Reading Drake as village right now.

Edited June 23, 2021 by |TJ|

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

Hey HEY, now I didn't ask you to trust me at all! I just want a chill PM with you! Hmmmmm you're being evasive smh :P.

What part of the fact that a 'chill, quiet game' excludes a PM with you is so difficult to understand?  

Edited to add:

12 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

3 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

But supposing Link and Zelda did want to follow your plan, shouldn't they ask for durian instead of frogs...?

Also agreed. 

I can see a case for either. More aggressive/risk-friendly Zelda at least might want to get off more scans. Zelda/Link with smaller risk appetite might want a durian. Or they might distrust Beedle anyway and go for an item (durian) which other Champions (exception of Daruk) have a reason to go for.

Currently inclined to mildly trust Archer the way I like my noodles - with a dash of soy sauce, nothing more. Too much soy sauce is unhealthy.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Kasimir

[|TJ| he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

What part of the fact that a 'chill, quiet game' excludes a PM with you is so difficult to understand?  

YOU'RE IMPLYING YOU CAN'T HAVE A CHILL QUIET GAME IF YOU PM WITH MEEEEEE >>

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, |TJ| said:

YOU'RE IMPLYING YOU CAN'T HAVE A CHILL QUIET GAME IF YOU PM WITH MEEEEEE >>

I'm not implying it. I'm outright saying it  

[|TJ| he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

I'm not implying it. I'm outright saying it  

-__-  oh well we can PM-ify the thread :P.

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, |TJ| said:

-__-  oh well we can PM-ify the thread :P.

Thanks but no thanks. If I must be subjected to you, I'd rather a PM. At least I can ignore the PM. How am I supposed to ignore the thread when making memes?  

[|TJ| he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Thanks but no thanks. If I must be subjected to you, I'd rather a PM. At least I can ignore the PM. How am I supposed to ignore the thread when making memes?  

Nah naaah, you're waaay too polite to ignore a PM. xD

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, |TJ| said:

Nah naaah, you're waaay too polite to ignore a PM. xD

You want to test me? 

[|TJ| he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

You want to test me? 

Oh please, you apologize profusely whenever you miss a PM  Also, how can we test it? You're saying to do want a PM? :P.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, |TJ| said:

Oh please, you apologize profusely whenever you miss a PM  Also, how can we test it? You're saying to do want a PM? :P.

Sure, open one. I'll spend the rest of the game ignoring it and chilling. Let's see how well that works for you  

[Biplet she/her]

57 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Homestuck flashbacks

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

 

8 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Aw man, that would’ve been such a fun thing to put in the game. People could’ve got items that way! That would’ve been fun.

If there is ever a rerun I absolutely support there being breakable containers to get items from 

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

hi

oh ok  well played

7 hours ago, Illwei said:

 I can assure you sir that there is zero crem running through my veins

what about your arteries 

6 hours ago, Archer said:

I was assuming you were trying to waste the elim super kill and was hoping you'd come up with some good additional logic to fake the elims into doing it. Trying out something from the wiki makes sense too.

Yeah this is pretty much what I figured was going down as well, or at least one of several possibilities

5 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

RULES INFO:

If you're redirected by a Knight, you are informed! This means scans are always accurate (afaict).

Also, it's possible that it's possible for there to be more than one of roles that only really make sense for there to be one of! So we could have 10 Miphas!

Interesting. Also useful info.

Paranoid!Drake is wondering how you are finding the time to dig up all of these interesting rules fax with relatively less thread activity but for now Paranoid!Drake can stay in his box it's good to see you again Pyro 

5 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

oh hi drake

Hi! 

5 hours ago, Tani said:

I wanna eat a frog! Hey Beedle, can I have a frog? Preferrably live!

idk if I ever ask for a frog I kinda want it to be deep fried

4 hours ago, Alvron said:

*stands up*  I'm Spartacus... er, Zelda.

Upvoted.

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

durian

delicious

I respectfully disagree with everything you just said

3 hours ago, Illwei said:

Well, according to my PM and what other people seem to be saying, it feels like you, the GM, are just objectively wrong here smh

this is the only reasonable explanation

3 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I mean, I was evil in that game and trying to come up with any reason I could to justify my fake tunnel, so I don't really know if that's the best example  Kinda surprised you're using it, honestly, wouldn't have guessed you would use that considering you were one of the most vocal against the likelihood of elim!Szeth that game :P.

I mean, I read Szeth as a villager, but not based on their being a Nicroburster, based on how they chose to use that ability. Similar to how people sussed you, but not based on your being a thief, but based on how you used it  I figured an elim!Nicroburster was totally possible, and that something similar in this game would also be possible. Your argument in that game may have been bogus but the reason it was at least plausible was bc the premise wasn't fundamentally bogus.

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

SELECT

Thank you for subscribing with SELECT! You will now receive messages until the end of time and we will maintain the polite fiction that the unsubscribe button actually does something.

Just now, |TJ| said:

YOU'RE IMPLYING YOU CAN'T HAVE A CHILL QUIET GAME IF YOU PM WITH MEEEEEE >>

you say in all caps

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I respectfully disagree with everything you just said

Oh c'mon, we have durian parties here  Can't while we're in lockdown lite but I'm heading out this evening to go buy a bunch of durians to munch on while reading the thread because 'tis the season, and some mates of mine are having a Zoom durian party instead. Life is good.

Edited to add:

3 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Thank you for subscribing with SELECT! You will now receive messages until the end of time and we will maintain the polite fiction that the unsubscribe button actually does something.

I'd like to call an airstrike down on Ezlo please. Hats shouldn't talk like that.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Kasimir

[Ashbringer he/him]

HEY!

The thread wasn't updating right.

Uh... I'll be back tomorrow. With more time and brainpower.

[attic_gremlin]

Horatio Archibald Stibbons has always been a pragmatic and levelheaded man. He keeps a watchful eye on every aspect of the castle and the people in his care, and thinks carefully about the solution to any problem. He takes obstacles in stride and believes that any challenge can be overcome with patience and hard work. 
 

Unfortunately, getting bloodstains out of carpet takes quite a lot of patience and hard work. Still, despite the fear running through each artery of this castle, the work must continue. Now that everyone is cloistered in their chambers, meals must be plated up and brought to rooms individually. People must still be fed, after all, and fires tended; not to mention, the garden keeps on growing no matter how fearful the landscapers are. Although the diplomatic work has ground to a halt while they search for the traitors in their midst, there is always work to be done for the housekeeping staff -- the bustling hidden world tucked away behind secret passages and narrow staircases, and which is the beating heart of Hyrule Castle.

Horatio hopes the diplomats will sort out this traitor business soon, though. The more blood is spilled, the more stains there will be to wash up. He'll keep an eye out for anything suspicious, but for now, it's business as usual.

Edited June 23, 2021 by attic_gremlin
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