Stark

I agree completely. Seeing how close things get to the fire, or sometimes how deep into the fire, before they can be pulled back from the brink is part of the appeal. Sometimes watching things slip over the edge mid series helps build to a better end. Very rarely do I read something with the expectation that everything will go wrong, and things end worse than they began by series end. And I feel Brandon is more the author to have things end well overall, if dramatically changed. However, I don't think that Odium is the Cosmere's ultimate bad guy. Roshar's maybe. And he definitely is a Cosmere wide menace. But he was named, and brought to be the face of the Rosharan conflict far too soon to be the ultimate villain. It would begin to feel a bit tired if he were the villain for everything after this point. So I think Odium, such as he is, will cease to be a villain after Stormlight is concluded. We have the hints being dropped of the master manipulator Bavadin, Trell (maybe also Bavadin) and the possibility of something worse still beyond Odium in later books. But Odium was unmasked far too early in the Cosmere as a whole to be the Cosmere's Dark one, and he is far too straightforwardly destructive for me to see him as the ultimate villain. We do know that the shard, Odium, survives this conflict, but that it may change hands. But I also have trouble seeing him as the Thanos, Darkseid, Galactos, Necros, or any other universe level villain you care to compare him to for the Cosmere. Also, woohoo! Post number 300!

In another thread I made the mistake of assuming someone witnessed the second murder. It seems they are identical within 24 hours, leading people to think it is a copy cat. My mistake. However, I do not believe the murderer is an Unmade, listener or human variant. Something or someone that can go anywhere unseen, undetected, while having enough physical form to kill violently, in an identical manner. I feel the copy cat is an Aimian. We know part of their agenda is to keep people away from their island. And that an Oathgate is on their island. It would track that they would have an agent in Urithiru to prevent their gate from being re-opened. How copy cat killings would accomplish this is unknown to me, but we also do not know enough about their motives yet. We saw in Edgedancer that a single Aimian was enough to take down two proto-radiants who had spoken at least their first two ideals. They are capable of violence, and are skilled combatants, who have less to fear in a fight to the death than humans due to their hive nature. I really think an Aimian is a good fit for the killer. I just don't know why. Thoughts?

You're not wrong, if Kaladin does it wrong. But Kaladin is not a hypocritical idiot like Nynaeve often was. Also, his start - surrendering to them, then teaching them fire, is far more nurturing and less aggressive than just yelling at them to stand up for themselves. He is helping, rather than commanding. Directing while submitting rather than seizing and forcing. Man, except for being a dude, Kaladin sounds like he would be far better at channeling Saidar than Nynaeve ever was at the beginning. Maybe because Syl is female, she would give him an in? Male/Female radiant-spren pairings getting auto channeling circle pairs?

@Dreamstorm - These are more my predictions for the end of book 5. Ending two is what honor and the Stormfather were pushing Dalinar towards. As it currently stands, with how complacent the world has become since the 'last' desolation, and how much the rest of the countries doubt the trustworthiness of the Blackthorn... They have a bigger uphill battle that Kelsier's crew did. At least the skaa knew that they were in danger, knew they had a common enemy they could accept or struggle against. Roshar is so full of different secret societies with different agendas, numerous countries in place of an empire, communication breakdowns, lack of trust, and centuries of cultural divide to contend with. Unifying them to face a common enemy, especially a common enemy who is appearing to negotiate rationally with some leaders, while the guy who says their are evil has a reputation for being a berserker warlord from a family with a penchant for world dominance and heretic thought? The struggle they face here is orders of magnitude more difficult that toppling a single authority figure in an empire. And on top of that, the only monarch who appears to be siding with the protagonists is Mr T., who we all know is not necessarily a good ally to have for many reasobs. So yeah, I am not seeing many options for a positive outcome by book five, where the best case scenario is still pretty awful. Heck, previous desolations had a 90% mortality rate, and sent civilization back to the stone ages. And those were victories. So yeah... Is a happy ending possible by book ten? Probably. But I don't see it yet. But I'm also not really looking past book five. But, you are not wrong for calling me out as a pessimist. Struggle and adversity make opportunities for better stories to emerge, and that does require things to get worse before they get better. So I am expecting things to get worse.

The way I see it, there are five options for how it plays out. 1)Odium win, doesn't matter hows - Bad option, but not the worst. 2)Odium is forced into a champion battle, his champion loses. He retreats for a time, and is pissed. Comes back after humanity has had time to forget and tries again. Most positive option. 3)Rayse himself is drawn out and killed. Cultivation splinters the shard, covering Roshar in splinters of hate. Hoid's "I would see this planet burn" scenario 4)Rayse is drawn out and killed. Someone else takes up the shard. New devil. Could be worse, could be better, but eventually the intent of odium will rule out. But whether that means actively trying to kill everything or not could depend on the bearer. Potentially best option. 5)Rayse dies, Cultivation absorbs the shard to create a new dual shard to try to contain it and prevent it from returning. Either succeeds, or becomes cultivated hatred (Dark Galadrial) and spreads hate across the Cosmere. Best or far worst option depending on her control. Sanderson seemed to imply in the December 2016 seattle thingr that this was not likely. He seemed puzzled by the question and his response implied that this wasa terrible plan that would not happen.

Well, as longs as she's honest about. "Pattern, I am a serial killer." "This truth is accepted" "I am using the trophies I collect to make my own special ink for portraits of my new persona's based off my victims. I choose my victims for the traits they have I desire. Using them to craft my illusion makes it stronger." "This truth is... deeply unsettling. Terrifying and gross. And.., storm it, accepted, but only because I have no choice. Seriously, get some help, or go divide by zero with that nice swordsman who wields my cousin's corpse. You're starting to scare me." I don't feel that there is a moral code to Lightweavers, as long as they honor the truths they have admitted to their spren.

Pretty sure the first second on screen Truth from her that we see is "I am a murderer." So killing dudes would confirm that her oath is true, while deeply unsettling Pattern as to what she would do with the corpse. Use it as a chair, or food, or a sword, or something. Thanks to @Dreamstorm for the correction. "I am a murderer" is the second truth she spoke to Pattern, to reveal herself to Jasnah. I had completely missed that she spoke two truths in Way of Kings. I think I overlooked the first one because it was so seemingly minor.

Yeah, I actually think it might be an Aimian. We have seen that they watch everything. No one would take note of a cremling while committing murder. They have an agenda, both from the back cover blurbs, and from the preview interlude we saw. They seem like they would be capable of perfectly imitating another's actions. And appearance, so the witnesses would have seen Adolin and Ned look alikes doing their own copy cat work. I feel an Aimian hiding in Urithuru, trying to keep the Alethi off balance and from looking towards Aimia, with the 10th oathgate would fit their motivations, such as we've seen so far, quite well. Much better than one of the Unmade doing it. The Unmade are spren. They have no physical form unless bound. They may be influencing the murders, but they are physically incapable of doing the deed themselves. People screaming 'The Unmade did it' need to flesh out that theory a lot more before I am willing to buy into it. Random other thought, Dalinar's hiding spot may not be as good as he thinks it is. I get the impression that poopspren are terrible gossips.

I really hope that Navani doesn't Marie Curie herself with all her self testing... Dalinar can't make her a squire to stormlight away any of the radiation damage she may be doing to herself in her unprotected experiments. I'll grant yo, Stormlight seems less radioactive than other energy sources, but still. Very little good comes to those who use themselves, their friends and family as guinea pigs. But hey, she did make him a pretty sweet watch. Wonder how often it needs to be infused??

I love that Pattern and Shallan are talking to each other and trying to resolve the rift between them. So often we have these issues prolonged because characters wont talk to each other, and they aren't falling into that cliched trap. Very happy. And she DOESN'T WANT HIM TO DIE! But once again, we have a Shallan POV were it is directly referenced what she hates. She hates herself, and does not deny hating Pattern when he mentions it. If we look at characters who talk about their hatreds, and how often it comes up, Shallan is near the top. Granted, the Truth she admitted is still super fresh, but still. She admits to hating. I am more worried and convinced that she, as the most advanced Radiant we have on screen, with the most fragile sense of self, is extremely open to Odium's influence. Which would result in her being a candidate for Odium's champion. And can we talk about the Ghostblood's for a minute? Setting aside the naming convention of your average ten year old, how f^@ked up are these people? That your above standard thugs are petrified of them, and it is completely acceptable that one of them would STAB A HAND TO A TABLE THROUGH THEIR OWN HAND! And that is getting off easy! What the rust. And Shallan has not made the connection that these super messed up psychos, who admit to trying to have her and her mentor killed have her entire living family essentially hostage under the guise of bringing them to her? How can she not see that this will not end well. She asks Pattern if she killed her family and replaced them with illusions. No, Shallan, you didn't. But you may well have killed them by pulling the Ghostblood thread to see where it leads.

Worldhopper? Unlikely that a worldhopper would let themselves get taken as a slave, or made a bridgerunner. I'm thinking a cameo of one of Brandon's friends or beta readers. Just seems really odd to mouth off to the most powerful man in the world right now, even if he has a reputation for being a bit more relaxed about rank through Kaladin, right after he calls you on being mouthy... Edit: Though that may just be my personal bias. I tend to be too mouthy for my own good, and if I had been given the honor of a cameo in Oathbringer by Brandon, I would totally have asked to be in Bridge Thirteen.

Okay. Vasher being Vasher, awesome. Ardents having a crisis of faith and the total takedown of tradition for tradition's sake, brilliant. Evi's name, oh dear, what is happening? Is the stormlight healing the holes in his brain, because he does not view himself as a person who would not remember his wife? Will he also lose the counterpart to his Nightwatcher visit? So much hope and happy feels at Kaladin working to establish trust. Red clawed cremlings are poisonous, huh. Lighteyes fancy up their liquor, amusing. A literal, body doubling copy cat murderer. What the heck? I don't think we will see another Sadeas style murder, but damnation. The copy cat literaly looked exactly like the first killer. So, if someone saw the second Sadeas style murder, they would have seen Adolin killing the person! Also, Dalinar being Dalinar, and being there with his guys. Bridge thirteen's guy being a little too casual strikes me as odd. That tradition busting story has to be my favorite part of this week. Tradition for tradition's sake is one of the things that bother me the most. THe line, just because its old doesn't make it right Hits me deeply. Final thought, listener children. Good to see them. A lot of emotions come up as they discuss the reality of being born into slavery. Also, there seems to be a colour change in the patterning of the listeners as they achieve maturity, from orange-pink to orange-red. Like deer? Super cool.

Vasher looks like Vasher! Scruffy-rope-belted-breath herder is back!

Ah, the link is there on Tor's homepage, but it keeps 404ing me! Storm it!

Here's hoping for some nice long chapters this week. The Kaladin Chapter last week was awesome, both tragic and hope inspiring, but far too short. I need my fix. I can do short chapters in the actual book, not on a week to week basis. Til 9, trying to focus on all the work I won't be doing after 9...

Likely by the end of the 5th book at the latest. While SA is a ten book series, Brandon has made it pretty clear that it will be two arcs of 5 books. If I remember correctly, there wil be a 5-15 year gap between books 5 and 6, in worlds, where as each arc happens essentially back to back. So I think you can expect most of what we are seeing to wrap up by book five, with the longer lasting consequences of what happens here and now to be dealt with in the second arc, but also likely to have a different, or at least drastically changed core antagonist. Second half could be more along the lines of: All the nations united to throw of the Desolation, we are recovering. Now what? We all have our own Radiants, and none of us want to bow to the Warlord Dalinar Blackthorn Kholin. Civil war, politics and Radiant vs Radiant, plus certain autonomous external forces potentially exerting themselves. But the core idea is that this champion business will likely come to a head soon, with the Champion likely named in this book, coming to power in the next, and coming to a "final" confrontation in book 5.

If I had to think for cruelty that could have broken her, changing her from the liar to the spy, I'm looking at Mraize and the Ghostbloods. The casual cruelty he exhibits by allowing underlings to try to kill each other, sanctioning assassination attempts. Tysn (sp) on the journey to the shattered plains. There is a lot of casual cruelty in the ghostbloods. But also among the nobility of the War camps. Navani ignored her initially before turning mother hen on her, and that can be cruel. Sadeas is a perfect example of cruelty. Yes, there was cruelty in her past, especially her father towards her brothers, and that can break people quite easily. But also more recently.

@heroofpages Ooh, good point! I can't believe I forgot about her!

@kari-no-sugata I think you are exactly right. As the characters grow and develop, their worldview and status change. Referring to Kaladin as the Slave/Surgeon, even though he may still view those brands as part of him, now that he is Captain of Dalinar's personal guard and lead Windrunner. Shallan is no longer just a Liar trying to rob the king's sister, but a Spy playing a dangerous game with the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor. And so on and so forth. What will be interesting to see is how these titles evolve in the next two books. Also, the Sleepless text - is it prophecy or prediction?

Would Adonalsium always have split into 16 equal shards, or were some pieces uneven? Do some shards have a fraction more power than others, or are they all equal? Also, we know a different group of sixteen would possibly have gotten a different 16 intents. But what if it had been a group of 10, or 17 that shattered Adonalsium? Would they have gotten 10, more powerful, but less diverse shards? Or 17 slightly lesser shards than the existing sixteen. If it had been a group of 8, would they have gotten 8 shards of Harmony's power level with a singular intent each (but without Harmony's divide between Ruin and Preservation), or would their 8 have been dual intent?

See for me, I figure the characters referenced in this blurb are the same that have always been referenced, just with updated titles. And those are the 5 perspective characters for arc 1. The Warlord became the King, and is Dalinar The Surgeon became the Captain, and is Kaladin The Assassin became the Stonewalker, and is Szeth (only one who has had any care about walking on stones) The Liar became the Spy, and is Shallan The Explorer became the Traitor, and is Eshonai (betrayed Venli by allowing the group to escape, and betrayed herself by being possessed, maybe. Mostly process of elimination) Disclaimer, my memory of what the original titles are is a little fuzzy. But I don't see why people are looking outside our main five POIs for the first arc for these characters. The Sleepless have always been looking at them. Moash, and the other secondary and tertiaries should not figure into it, I don't think. Hope we get an Eshonai perspective chapter, soon. Edit: Corrections, thanks to @Fulminato

Nah, super magnets. They are fun, and they mess with metalborn trying to sneak in and steal my thoughts.

I agree with you, her facing truths about herself, however painful and abrupt, will help her heal in the long term. Especially with positive influences from Adolin, and Jasnah, provided she returns. However, that healing could be slowed, halted or straight up sabotaged if an external force finds an in to twist her to its desires. And the fact that she and Pattern are making such a big deal about her trying not to hate the blade, and Pattern being willing to die so a different Cryptic can bond her truths, seems to be a huge thing. As a quick aside, Pattern dying for her would be a terrible idea. If another person, that close to her dies, and for that reason, I can totally see her spiraling. Her mother and father dead by her hand, her spren essentially committing suicide for her. Recipe for disaster. Odium, like Ruin before, finds people who are cracked to worm influence in. Odium is more subtle by necessity - he does not have hemalurgic spikes, that we know of, to exert his influence. But if we look at a family that has been under the direct influence of Odium for years, through her father, and she has this giant crack in he soul she is trying to repair. A crack that could easily lead to hatred if untended? Yeah, Odium can get in there. On her own, without a Shard influencing, I think she will heal, and faster with Adolin's help. With Odium expending effort to keep her uncomfortable around her spren and stoking her hatred, especially with the shady influence of the Ghostbloods, who seem less than altruistic.... Yeah, she can be pushed of that particular ledge and become the champion by degrees. Especially if something terrible happens to Adolin. And if nothing else, it would be compelling. A villain you can empathize with is the best kind of villain, because they are not black and white, good vs evil. It is part of why Eshonai is so tragic, she was possessed. But Shallan, who step by step slips further into darkness with a malevolent force prodding her along the way, would be terrifying. There is an argument to be made that I have been reading too much Stephen King lately... Also, it would be new. Brandon has not written a true female villain yet. I mean, we have Shan Elariel, who was minor at best. Bands of Mourning spoiler: Bavadin might be up there, but that is not clear yet. Eshonai is corrupted, and her sister is definitely Mz. Hyde, so we have had unpleasant women, and we have had women on the wrong side of the protagonists. But to have a a perspective character, one who we know and deeply care for go dark side? Kelsier probably, Hrathren did the wrong things with the best of intentions, but we do not have a female villain. And I would love to see it happen. I know it's not likely to happen, but dark side Shallan would be really neat.

Thanks @Firerust! I agree, it awkward. I'm the guy whose been at the party for a while, interacting with everyone, who only decides to introduce himself at the 5th event containing all the same people. Weird and awkward. But it is done now, so I can fade back into my normal behavior of mostly lurking and only commenting when I feel I have something amusing, or insightful, to say. That and throwing some crazy random theories at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I don't know. I think there is a really, really good reason why Pattern would be so concerned about Shallan hating him. She dislikes the part of herself that killed her parents so strongly that she cannot even touch Pattern's physical form without pain, almost as if he was already a dead blade. She must tell herself constantly that she does not hate Pattern, and must create a new persona for herself to be able to handle him. And most telling of all, Odium has been touching and affecting the Davar family for years. What if we are slowly watching Shallan begin to hate herself, and the spren bonded to her for what happened in her childhood? What if Shallan is the champion, unexpected, because Shallan, who would expect it? Familiar to Dalinar - though her eyes are black and blue, the colour of her current order is red. While we have a WOB stating that inherited lighteyes from a Radiant ancestor should stay, but that does not mean that hers won't change to garnet. And for @maxal, what if Adolin's role is to bring her out of her hatred? Or, more tragically, indirectly push her off the deep end if the result of the murder investigation should have a severe negative consequence for him? Why not both? What if she truly begins to hate herself, and then Alethi society if Adolin is banished for his crime, but he returns in a later book to help defeat her, the champion of Odium?