Stark

Here is hoping. As before, home made internet cookies for anyone who gets a chance to ask anything about either of the following subjects: Which forms are male/female (other than dullform, mateform and slaveform, all of which can have children) and which forms are malen/femalen (the forms that cannot procreate)? Did the Shin invade the rest of Roshar to remove the missing shards from circulation (ref: Feverstone keep vision where Dalinar sees more shards than currently in active use)? Or, are the Shin stockpiling shards the same way they stockpile honorblades?

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but I have a different reasoning. A fair subsection of the moderators and arcanists seem to be able to attend many of Brandon's events to personally ask questions. They talk to him on reddit, or twitter. The email him directly. Some of them are beta readers. So when they say something, unless Peter or Brandon show up to say "Nope" - I take them at face value and add more weight to their opinions. Especially when they support themselves with a WOB. When it comes to non-theory posts, maybe a mix of the previous conditioning and the implied authority given by the title makes me give their thoughts more weight. I have yet to have an issue or disagreement with one of the Mods, but I often attribute more weight to their postings - even in off the wall theorycrafting with only the flimsiest of support. Heck, as recently as last week, I was pleased when Rshara and Calderis gave me a virtual thumbs up on a theory, more so than other responses, because they are titled members of this group. So I stick by my feeling. The mods and are doing the best they can do, and I am thankful they are donating their time to keep this running. But, as part of them evolving, they do need to be aware that a lot of us will, consciously or not, assign more weight to their posts. Official business or not. And I think most are pretty good about being careful of that perception, especially if the comments about off forum discussion for problem solving is to be believed, and I see no reason to doubt that. I don't think the solution is for mods to have official and personal accounts. That is too easy to abuse, and would be a waste of their time. I also don't see restricting areas a mod can participate in as being a solution. That sucks all the fun out of this and makes it work. Unpaid, unfun work. That would kill the interest of many mods in being here, I think. So there is merit to the discussion of freedom vs. power, but there is no solution that will keep everyone happy. For now, I'm still having fun 99.99% of the time I'm here, and I see that continuing as long as we can continue to have open, respectful discussion about issues that come up.

This. Even out of context, this. There are a couple of subjects that I simply don't open, because I have zero interest in discussing. There are posts that appear in threads I am interested in that hold no relevance (In, and only in, my opinion) to the part of the discussion I am interested in, or participating in, and I can scroll past them. If I find myself scrolling past most of the thread, I drop it. And finally, there are some posters who I actively avoid, for a plethora of reasons, some valid, and some petty. It is so much easier to scroll past a post that frustrates or insults or angers me than to carefully craft a response that is within the rules. And it is faster than shooting off a quick response that fuels the fire too. Do I always succeed? No. I responded heatedly to IronBars when I felt insulted in the Underwhelming Thread. I Responded heatedly a number of months ago in that other thread that flirted with toxicity, Suggestions or something, by a new poster. But I try to maintain the paradoxical heated-but-civil approach. And I also remembered I could choose not to be part of the argument. Did that with Underwhelming until I saw the Mods getting involved, then I went back to see what was happening and if it would affect me. We can all be rude. We can all be abrasive. And we can all choose not to respond, though that admittedly does become more difficult if we are being called out by name. I have been on the blunter end of both @Calderis, @RShara and a few others with some of my early theories. The straightforwardly showed me my error with WOBS. It was blunt, and I thanked them for it. Other times I've had some really good feedback and discussion with the Ancients of the boards. It varies topic to topic. But at the end of the day, this is a place where we have the freedom to express our opinions. And have the freedom to respond to, or ignore, the opinions of others. As long as we all stay civil, that is fantastic. If we need the Mods to remind us that we are civil humans with a fondness for the same subsection of fictional literature so we should all try to get along, well then its a good thing we have mods. If they are biased because they to are humans with a fondness for the same subsection of fictional literature, or imperfect because the best, professional mods are unavailable for a theorycrafting fansite, or uninterested in moding fans, we have to help them be better while they help us be better posters. It is give and take. So I'm happy we have a Calculus prof, a whatever @Jofwu and @FeatherWriter are/do and all the others. The fact that we can have this discussion is proof that we all care to make it better, and that the voices of non mods and non-arcanists can and will be heard. Except @Mestiv. That signature that spies on me is creepy and I don't like it. I'm certain you are a great human, and your responses to my posts, when they occur, are fun and insightful. But you scare me with that signature. (Joke with no intent to offend, apologies if offense is perceived or taken)

One of my biggest personal worries is that this would be me. I try my best to follow the rule of silence in absence of something nice or constructive to say. But when that fails, and it has in the past - I often find myself immediately hitting the edit button after posting to try to fix what I can see as potentially inflammatory phrasing. Often that results from posting without proof reading myself. Were I to post something, and have a Mod PM me to say I crossed a line and need to apologize, and rephrase, I'd like to believe I'd respond reasonably. My fear is that I wouldn't, and I'd explode at a PM just trying to do their unpaid, volunteer job. Reality is likely somewhere in the middle where I'd need to walk away for a few hours before fixing the mess I made. All that to say, I don't envy the Mods their task. And I'd hope that if I ever cross the line, they'd come to me first in private to say not cool, and try to fix it. If I turn out to be one of those that doesn't not respond well to quiet wrist taps and attempts at resolution, by all means, be public about saying you tried to resolve things in private and I was recalcitrant. But that is not to say there is no bias. It's been admitted to and pointed out enough on this thread, I don't need to re-litigate it. As for reaction from Mods to old hands versus new blood, I often feel I fall into a middle category - I'm not new. But I'm not as prolific or visible as some of the others out there. So I often keep silent for fear of reprimand, both with old and new posters. So I don't have good answers. I'm both heartened and disappointed to learn our Mods are only human. if that makes sense. Heartened that they admit they don't always get it right. Disappointed that they don't always gt it right. But having this topic where we can discuss with the mods has the potential to really help us all interact better. As long as the thread doesn't descend into "Hey ModX, remember that time I got heated with Poster Y, and you gave me crap, but not the other?" Last thought, this idea from Chaos has saved me a number of times. Extra points for tea instead of coffee. Thanks for discussing with us.

Either way, it is a comparison designed to make the idea seem awkward and uncomfortable. Both work. Both have issues. As far as I know, apes and humans cannot have hybrid children. But horses and Ryshadium can? Best would maybe be a human master breeding with a Parshman slave? Ugh, the comparisons make me uncomfortable just typing them. Let's move on, back to what level of genetic similarity exists between horse and Rosharan super horses. But the idea that the 'gemheart gene' is the recessive, determining factor is interesting. Because then we can have very closely related genetic traits with a minor, yet key difference. Then, the rest of the characteristics (endurance, inteligence, strength) are secondary from the music spren bond, which is not possible without a gemheart symbiosis. That definitely gets more interesting. And if recessive, it may account for the Herdaziens and Horneaters not having gemhearts?

I completely agree with you on the tail end of this point. Everyone makes a big deal about how intelligent Rhyshadium are, arguably as much as humans - I don't think they would willingly participate in a breeding program for pure Rhyshadium, let alone half breeds, which is probably why no military does that. Plus the cost. 1000 Emerald broams, or 2000, for a normal horse? It would be ludicrously expensive to outfit a cavalry with half-Rhyshadium, partially due to cost. Partially due to the nature of Rhyshadium, choosing their rider. So I don't quite agree with your logic that the 'Rhyshadium gene' is not the dominant expressed because we have not seen a cavalry of half-breeds. The Ryshadium, while able to breed with normal horses, are intelligent enough that they may view breeding with normal horses the same way we view breeding with children - wrong on so very many levels, and very likely a form of abuse. Normal horses are to be protected and nurtured by their wiser counterparts, not sexually exploited. I think that is why we do not see much about half-breeds. More societal than genetic. But you could be entirely right, and the Ryshadium genes might be the non-dominant gene in a mix, or be a co-dependent gene that requires numerous factors not necessarily present in a half breed to be expressed.

Now I'm curious. Horses can mate with donkeys, and produce offspring, mules - which are not genetically viable and are sterile. So, when a Ryshadium mates with a horse, what is produced? Is it A Ryshadium, a half-Ryshadium, a horse, or a genetically non-viable hybrid, like the mule? Which traits are dominantly expressed, Ryshadium or horse? How genetically distinct are they?

Okay, good. You scared me a bit there.

I'm just curious, because I have not heard anything pointing in that direction, is Skyward not working? Last I heard, it was working just fine... Or is it not working part of your Worst Case scenario?

Honestly, an animated series in the style of Avatar: The Last Airbender is one of the few ways I can see any of the Cosmere getting a screen adaptation that is faithful and not entirely made up of CGI. It is the only way you can faithfully recreate the settings and the ethnic hodgepodge that the characters represent without anything feeling out of place.

Maybe - but it still remains a good point nonetheless. The Shin are not responding to the Desolation. If someone developed artificial shard tech, they'd likely do the same, ignore the reports as myth until they were forced to confront it, at which point it may be too late. Edit: Just saw a later comment made this same point. Thanks @The One Who Connects for making that point, and teaching me to read the whole set of new comments before responding...

Thanks Calderis for voicing this politely! I tried reading it and got bored. But the best way to start an argument is to tell me I did not like something because it was too complicated for me to understand. If you like it, that is fantastic, and more power to you. Please do not insult my intelligence because I disagree with you. Ad hominem is the easiest logical fallacy to fall prey to. I did not like Gardens of the moon and stopped reading it, you did like it and read the whole series. Both are acceptable stances. No need to be antagonistic about it. Edit: @IronBars I'm sorry you found OB to be underwhelming. I'm in the camp it was awesome. I don't think we'll be changing your mind any time soon based on how this thread is progressing. I hope you find more to enjoy in subsequent entries. Until then, agree to disagree?

I think you're missing the point here, hopefully not deliberately. @Dreamstorm most likely had no hand in inventing Firemoss. If I read his comment correctly, he is pointing out that you are trying to dictate how addiction should work for a fictional substance that Sanderson created. Earth rules need not apply, because they are not on earth. Trying to apply Earth rules to Roshar drugs as a criticism makes for a flawed argument. You could make them same argument against the trees that fall over then right themselves in Edgedancer - that's not how trees work on Earth, so it must be wrong. I am lucky enough to not have any personal experience with drug addiction, or mental illness, and I know of no person in my immediate circle who suffers from addiction. Nor have I studied the psychology of these conditions. I am not qualified to comment on this. But I trust that Brandon did his research, and that trust is backed up by people on this site who have lived with mental illness extolling how well Brandon has handled various aspects of mental illness. We do not know what the long term affects of firemoss abuse are because we only have to abusers with screen time. One gets magical aid to remove his justification for using it and forcefully quits cold-turkey. The other was forced to quit by extreme poverty, and then has since backslid hating himself the whole way. We have limited info on how this plays out, but I don't think its been poorly handled so far.

Well, I would love to see if this can be confirmed or denied before book five. If we can still ask questions in ordered books, I will be asking something in this vein to try to confirm. Phrasing to come later, and I'll probably ask for help from those who go to signings more often to craft the question as well as possible to avoid an RAFO. But if that is not possible, I will offer as many upvotes as I can give to anyone who would be willing to ask about this in person at a signing or a Q&A event.

I always figured it would be something more difficult, based on the sapphire recording we saw, and the difficulty Shallan has been having reconciling her fourth ideal. Something like: "I will trust those I wish to protect to make their own choices and stand on their own, even if it means I lose them." It has to be something about letting go of the protective urge. If he spends all of his time protecting people and keeping them under his wing, they will never have a chance to grow and reach their potential. Protecting them so they can learn to protect themselves is one thing, and necessary. But once they have learned to protect themselves, trusting them to be able to do it is that much harder. You must stop protecting them and allow them to be responsible for themselves, else you are smothering their potential, which is far worse. But someone, like Kaladin, who defines himself by protecting everyone, would have a terrible time with this concept. Let them stand on their own and protect themselves. Some will stumble, and those you can save. Some will fall, and those you grieve. But the others will stand and be Radiant. But they can't stand if you are constantly swooping in to protect. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. I will trust those who can protect themselves to make their own choices.

Removing as many as they can from circulation for the greater good, then training Honorblade shcok troops for a just in case scenario where the one of Roshar's groups with a decent number of shards decides they are a tempting target? That could fit quite well. Does not really address why Szeth was made Truthless for thinking the surges were returning, but could still be a valid alternative to the reasoning of my theory.

I had not even thought of that. That would definitely help hide the disappearance of the shards - either having a priest look at the History showing the Shin taking shards and thinking "That can't be right, they have no shardbearers," before destroying that document. Or a scholar seeing the truth in a Heirocracy document and not believing it. Both would help support this. This is a fantastic question.Maybe they didn't initially. Jexrien said it was over, and the Heralds would return when it was time to retake the Tranquiline Halls. SO maybe they were initially Holding the Honorblades for that. Keep them safe, so the Heralds would be properly armed when it was time to assault heaven. Then the Recreance happens, and they shift their view, keep all the shards so the world doesn't get consumed by war, so the Heralds can give them to the worthy when the assault on heaven arrives. Then they are not doubting the Heralds by expecting another Desolation, but preparing a stockpile for the next assault that myth and legend says must take place, the one where they retake heaven. Then it makes sense to keep an eye out for the return of the Herald's powers, and to be scared of what that implies for the world, an assault on heaven and potential return of the Voidbringers. That would still be scary enough to maybe be used as justification by bad leaders to exile one of their own rather than face the truth. As for why they send the Truthless with an Honorblade into the world... I don't know. Maybe it is a Litmus test of sorts. If they send out a perfect warrior who will do as he is told, regardless the order given, eventually he will need to use Stormlight, and someone will make use of that. If the Surges are returning, eventually he will be faced by someone with surges to defeat him, like Kaladin. Which would confirm for the Shin leaders, via their spies, whether they were right or wrong. Of course, they could not have predicted Taravangian, or Gavilar. ANd Szeth's defeat happened where no one could see. So it does not work perfectly, but may be possible?

You may be right @Calderis. Everything I have is conjecture based on a few off hand mentions - as far as I know, we have no concrete timelines for some of these events. And to be fair, the Recreance left a power void big enough that society likely took a hit after it, what with the Radiants leaving shards behind like Oprah hands out cars (You get a shard! You get a Shard! Everyone gets a shard! Oh, you just killed your Sergeant with a shard... Keep it!). That would be chaotic enough for the Shin to get in steathily to grab up a fair chunk of the available shards. But eventually, things would start to stabilize, and certain shards would get names and histories that follow them, making them more notable if they were to disappear. So an invasion, where they become 'lost,' to cover their disappearance, makes sense. I'm not in love with your proposed timeline, because the shards have to disappear before they start becoming items with history that would be noticed if missing. But again, I'm theorizing out of the blue with little to no proof with which to support my hypothesis, so your timeline may well be the better fit. It all depends on how long it took society on Roshar to start rebuilding and stabilize post-Recreance, and start tracking History again. So no, I don't like the idea that it took that long, but that does not mean that it is not valid. Either way, it still ends up with the Shin possessing over 95% of Roshar's shards, with the remaining 5% spread across the nations or outright lost, and none the wiser about it. I also like @Storms! interpretation for why Alethkar and Vedenar have more than the other countries.

You don't even need all 10. With the right five blades, you have all 10 surges already.

This is an awesome extra bit of info! It falls in line with my thoughts of timing, putting the Invasions closer to the Recreance than not. Not outright proof, but helpful still. Thanks! I agree. If they accomplished their goal of capturing the shards, why hold on to territory they don't want? Especially given their views on stone and stonewalkers? Easier to let it dissolve and retreat back to their more fertile lands. And as an additional thought - there are no spren in Shinovar. Is that maybe because they are driven away by the large number of Deadeyes? If the Shin have thousands of deadblades, it may overload the Shinovar aspect of Shadesmar with so many deadeyes that no spren, even the basic spren, is comfortable going there? Get their emotion food elsewhere, from a less creepy place?

That's fair. It seems like there are a ton of things in this series that get tiny, seemingly off-hand mentions that turn out to be super important later. Like Ishar. Or all the Cremlings. Just to mention a few. It is hard to pick out which ones are foreshadowing reveals and which ones are red herrings. I think the Shin are definitely more than they appear, and Szeth's book will get pretty exciting.

This is an interesting counterpoint, but I don't think I buy it. What you describe is the First Desolation, when humanity, the Voidbringers, conquered Roshar. This was indeed a huge event. But it was thousands of years ago and has its own name. And the survivors of Ashyn may not have been calling themselves the Shin yet. Invaders almost never refer to their own actions as an invasion - its a Crusade, or an Enlightening, or a Mission of Civilization - there is always a fancy name to hide the ugly facts. The invaded people call it an invasion. So if the First Desolation as also the Shin Invasion, why do humans call it by both names? Especially seeing as the First Desolation is a far more epic name than the Shin Invasions. The Shin Invasions is also a plural, indicating they had invaded either multiple times, or multiple locations We also have Dalinar in his flashback remembering that Shin had invaded in recent history... So no, I don't think the Shin invasions are a substitute name for the First Desolation, the first Desolation is already an epic enough name for that event. The Shin Invasions are something that definitely occurred after Aharietiam. Most likely after the Recreance as well given how Dalinar and the few Historians who mention it seem to refer to it. Super thrilled to have peaked the curiosity of one of the Arcanists! That is about a good response as I could have expected for a theory. Too bad questions about this and what happened to the missing sets seems like massive RAFO bait.

Hello all, As we all know, until recently, the Shin had possession of nine out of ten Honorblades. They Lost Nale's when he stole it back (breaking the oath to leave them behind. Shame Nale, shame) and they lost Jezrien's when Szeth got taken out. We get an inkling as to how they find them in the first place during Dalinar's visions. When he brings Jasnah and Navani into the vision of the "final" battle, and they see Jezrien declare that it is over, the desolations have ended forever, they see the ring of nine blades, and they see a Shin scout find the blades first. It is not a huge leap to see the Shin declaring themselves the guardians of these blades and spiriting them off quietly. Especially seeing as we have direct confirmation from Szeth that they have them all, and he has trained with all of the surges. Then the Shin go on to become one of the most peaceful societies on Roshar, valuing those that add over those that take away. While they train warriors with the blades, they consider them to be the lowest rank in society. But they still train them. As a whole, they are isolationist, and rarely venture outside of their lands. I assume mostly to avoid violating the prohibition against walking on stone or interacting with the more other societies on Roshar. Except that one time they invaded. At some point in the past, the Shin invaded the rest of Roshar, for some reason. This was mentioned a few times in Oathbringer, the first instance I believe was in chapter 2. Why would they do this? Why would an isolationist culture that elevates farmers and artisans above all else decide to go to war with the rest of the world? Because the core of their society decided 4500 years ago that they, the Shin, would self appoint themselves the sole guardians and protectors of the Honorblades. Keeping them safe and out of circulation, not being used, until the Herald's ostensibly return to reclaim them. Who knows how much death and destruction they avoided by hiding them away from the world. They managed this secret for hundreds of years, peacefully. Until something changed that forced them to invade. I think that something was the Recreance. Dalinar saw in his vision of Feverstone Keep that hundreds of sets of Plate and Blade were dropped that day, far more than is currently in circulation. Enough to plunge the world into endless war over them. And most of them disappeared, so only a handful remain. Those that remain are high profile items, with detailed histories. But only recently (the last few hundred years) did scholars discover that they could add a gem to the hilt to allow a bearer to bond the blade, allowing them to summon and dismiss them at will. I think that the Shin invasion happened after the Recreance, but before bearers could bond their blades. I think the purpose of the invasion was that the Shin view themselves as the guardians of the Herald's blades and the Radiant's blades, and they invaded to take the blades and plate out of circulation. I think they are sitting on a stockpile that they will never use, to keep the rest of the world from destroying themselves. I think they stole as much as they could, and killed where they had to to get these. And then they retreated to their lands with their hidden stockpile, to wait for the return of the Heralds and Radiants, to keep the weapons safe. And they bunkered down. Complete Isolation. They don't leave, and let no one in. During Rysn's Interlude in WoK, it is mentioned that no outsider may progress beyond a certain point by either her or Vstim (I think, I will look for confirmation of that in that interlude). The rest of the world does not suspect they have them, because anyone else would have used them with pride, but the Shin view it as a shame, so they hid the blades and they disappeared from history. Then Szeth being declared Truthless takes on another light. If they are guarding that large a stockpile, thousands of weapons worth kingdoms, against the return of the Herald's and Radiants, having someone start saying they are back is a Big Deal. They don't want to flood the world with that much destructive power. They are afraid to. Far easier to outcast the single voice out of fear and keep their heads buried. They are watching for the return of Radiance, and terrified by what it would mean. The Shin have been preparing for this Desolation since the last one, but they don't want it to be true. They have been on high alert for thousands of years hoping this would never come, and are trying to find any valid reason to deny that it is hear, because it would mean they have to unleash death upon the world, when they value life. They are terrified, and they have all the shardblades. What do you think? Are the Shin a good candidate for possessing the missing blades? Was the Shin Invasions a cover for recovering the blades and plate left by the Recreance? Or am I off base? And I apologize if someone else already thought of and mentioned this elsewhere. I have not seen it posted, so I hope I'm original, but it would not surprise me if someone else got there first.

What @RShara said, but you get points anyway for putting in more effort than I did. Good attempt!

Challenge issued: A roses are Red style Ketek, appropriate to Roshar. Seeing as they have neither roses nor violets, and lets be honest, "Roses are red, violets are blue" would be terrible in a Ketek. I mean, what can you even do with that?