Blaze1616

I agree with you, the glow is a function of Stormlight lost. From Outis' reply, I think s/he does too. Isn't that stated in the books? I see why my wording would make you think I disagreed though...hah... We have no knowledge on any conversions, so it is possible that the 1:12 ratio would hold in both directions. It is also possible it would not, as you have suggested. Given Brandon has stated that there is a conversion, which he knows, it implies the ratio is true in both directions. As we've mentioned, though, there might be some loss when fueling a magic system with another's investiture,and that loss might not be constant in both directions (using your previous example, the reverse ratio could be 10:1, or even 14:1 or higher). As for using lumens, I do think it would work. We know from WoR (and WoK I think) that Kaladin is able to absorb a small amount of Stormlight and his glowing is minimal (small enough to not be noticed in daylight unless someone is looking for it). We also know that when he absorbs more than said "small" amount, his glow is brighter. This would mean that the glow is proportional to Stormlight absorbed. Yes, the ratio might not be 1:1, but perhaps the glow increases 1 lumen for every 5.6 units of Stormlight. Perhaps it is that the lumen measurement is a function of Stormlight instead of a ratio. Regardless, it would be measurable after some experimentation. Now, as for your argument of there being a maxed glow brightness, I agree with you simply because the Kaladin/Szeth battle at the end of WoR had no mention of a blinding glow (if memory serves) when they held a tremendous amount of Stormlight. At this point, time would become a factor. As the Stormlight drains, it will eventually reach that "capped" point and the glow will diminish. Once the lumen:stormlight ratio or function is known, the time it takes for a set amount of Stormlight to drain can be calculated. This, in combination with the time it takes for the luminescence of an individual to start decreasing after absorbing a tremendous amount of Stormlight, would allow a calculation of how much Stormlight was originally stored. Your next argument would then probably be that the Stormlight drains at different rates depending on how much the individual is holding (I'm pretty sure this is mentioned in WoK or WoR). This, though, is still measurable. It would require a relatively large store of gems of equal value and size (emerald broams, for example). A set amount of time after a stormwall hits (anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours, so long as it is constant between experiments), have an individual absorb all the Stormlight from the gems, and record how long it takes for all of the glow to dissipate. Repeat this for different amounts of gems (and therefore Stormlight), and eventually a function will be capable of being formulated. In the end, it should all still be possible, and except for the lumen portions the experiments can be performed at Roshar's current technology level. The results might be a bit rough, but you can't really expect more until technology advances (stopwatches, for example). I'm sure that, eventually, there will be a means within the Cosmere to directly measure Investiture, but until then I don't see how an exact, definitive answer can be achieved.

Ah, but Stormlight makes you glow. there just happens to be a unit for measuring glow, or luminescence, known as the Lumen in the SI system. By measuring the intensity of the glow, as well as the time the glow is sustained, we could, theoretically, create a standard unit of Stormlight. Then, once this is complete, we perform the experiment I described above. As you have said, Stormlight could be lost through other means, but this could, potentially, be noticeable in the luminescence loss. This would then mean we would have the Awakener load up on Stormlight, much more than we know would be required, and simply test how much is lost through the act of Awakening the Lifeless. If you meant, however, that the 2 units lost in your example occur after having left the Awakener, but before bringing the Lifeless to...uh...life, that would be much harder to keep track of. I'm not even sure if it would be possible, and so the conversion might go down as 12 units rather than the actual 10. However, those 2 units are still mandatory for any future conversions, and so the conversion of 1:12 would still hold true. It is possible, though, that the number of units lost in conversion is a function of the Breaths used, though, and so we would need to test on objects other than creating a Lifeless that would require more than 1 Breath. Man, research is awesome! I really wish we could do these experiments.

Welcome. Have an upvote. Read Warbreaker.

Okay, I see. I definitely do not think the energy is incorporated directly into the Returned, because the Returned is sustained for one week regardless of their activities being strenuous or not. I believe, instead, that the Breath is stored in a more "raw" form of investiture. As we know from WoB, the "spark of life" is a form of investiture: We also know that Returned are very unlike their undead cousins the Lifeless. Both must die as a human before they can become what they are, but a Lifeless just follows orders, while a Returned has free will (to an extent, anyways). Perhaps the Breath that is consumed is converted to replace the "spark of life." This does not, though, explain why the "spark" fades and eventually disappears though.

What if Returned simply cannot "own" Breath? Being Splinters of Endowment, perhaps all of their "property" is really Endowment's "property," and the transfer process is one week. This is just a wild stab in the dark. Maybe I am missing something, but is there a specific reason behind the logic that Breaths must be partially consumed to provide energy for a whole week? Why is it not possible that, after receiving the Breath and consuming it, the Returned has one week's worth of energy?

I was not trying to give a concrete amount, but was merely stating that I think a single unit of Stormlight is less raw investiture than one Breath, and therefore Vasher would need to consume more than one unit of Stormlight each week. I agree that it has to be measurable, as your WoB points out, but it is not like we can just run the experiment you propose. I also think that the "jury-rigging" Brandon mentions when discussing crossing the magic systems would make the experiment you propose much harder to perform. The easier method, in my opinion, would be to instead create a Lifeless using Stormlight. We know that the creation of a Lifeless uses exactly 1 Breath, so for a "clean" conversion between the two systems that should be the easiest experiment. That, though, brings the question of whether or not the Stormlight would then dissipate and the Lifeless would again die. Again, though, none of this matters because, unfortunately, we are not in the Cosmere (and if we were, our chances of being a worldhopper are slim). On the bright side, we know Brandon has a conversion, so he must have thought about the experiment that the characters would need to perform to achieve that ratio.

This "power" of Endowment, if you will, then manifests in the magic system itself. I like this theory. Kudos to you Moogle!

That clears it up. Thanks. It's a nice theory, but the retaining of Breath could also be a result of the Breath being an innate investiture, unlike all the other investitures we have thus far seen. I like the concept of Endowment, well, endowing Nalthians with the investiture, but I wonder if that is not just a result of the Breath being innate.

So are you suggesting that there is a constant flow of Breath through every individual born on Nalthis, and that when giving up your Breath you are instead just rewriting your personal stream to flow into someone else? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your use of the term "leaks." In all the examples given, the leaked investiture never returns to the holder (not directly, anyways). Stormlight, once leaked, is gone until you intake more. The Dor, as I've come to understand it, is a vast amount of investiture that is waiting to be released, and so it leaks from the Elantrians (and like all investiture ends up returning to the "pool" it originated from). I understood the mists to act similarly (both being gaseous investiture). Unlike these, though, Breath persists. An individual who has attained the third heightening will maintain that heightening all their life so long as they don't give up or lose their Breath (unless I've missed something?). Does my post even make sense?

You must also remember that there is no known conversion between magic systems as of yet. 1 gram of metal has no conversion into stormlight. Does 1 gram of bronze = 1 diamond broam of stormlight? What about the fact that the gems leak Stormlight naturally? How do we account for different metals burning at different rates? Those questions are merely a small fraction of the total amount of questions regarding the power levels of Allomancy and Surging, and does not include Awakening, AonDor, Forging, or Feruchemy. The only real comparison that can be made is between Breath and Stormlight, currently. A WoB has stated that Vasher is residing on Roshar because "something" is more abundant. Considering Vasher requires Breath to live, moving to Roshar gives him access to a different, albeit similar, investiture that does not require him to steal the "souls" of people. I feel this "something," then, is the investiture of Stormlight. It is clear, to me anyways, that Vasher is using Stormlight to keep himself alive. So how much stormlight does Vasher need to hold to equate the one Breath consumed every 8 days? I personally believe that it is going to be greater than 1 "unit" of stormlight, which would imply that Stormlight is "weaker" than Breath, but then Stormlight is more abundant, as Brandon said, which causes the systems to be more similar. In addition, Breath can be re-absorbed after use in most cases, but Stormlight cannot. So really there are no clean conversions right now. I would, therefore, say that it cannot be said that one magic system "consumes" more investiture than another.

WoB that the all humans have investiture. Also Nightblood (character) spoilers. I'm not sure what this means, though. If the Spark of Life is investiture, can you store that?

Well we know they can do something, because the Ars Arcanum does not specify Nicrosil Ferrings as Nicrosil Gnats like it does for Aluminum and Duralumin. This would imply that something can be done. Edit: After having hit the Post button it occured to me that the "Gnat" term might have only been used for Aluminum and Duralumin Mistings. I do not have my book with me, nor is there a picture on the internet to confirm.

Ah, okay, I get it. So in reality, all the magic systems are rather rigid. I was furthering my confusion by not fully understanding the Cosmere definition of Foci. Thanks! Given what we know, then, it would definitely seem, as you say, that bonds are the focus for Surgebinding. In addition, we've seen that intent plays a major role in just about all of the systems other than Surgebinding so far (at least, I cannot think of an example where it mattered), and potentially Allomancy, though emotional Allomancy certainly seems linked to intent, as you've said.

In addition, wouldn't Shards looking into the future, and then performing actions to change that future, cause a new future to be had? Wouldn't they see this the first time they looked? Its like and atium v atium fight. By seeing the future, you can change the future, and in doing so the future you saw should be different, an endless cycle. Now, perhaps the Shards grant their holders the capacity to make sense of it all, but I definitely do not think all Shards have future sight, as pointed out by Moogle, and I do not believe there is evidence supporting that Endowment specifically has it.

Okay, so I seem to have been mistaken in my understanding of the Ars Arcanum. I would agree, then, that for fabrials that specifically perform Surgebinding functions gem type probably does not matter, with the exception of Soulcasting. It really does make one wonder why Allomancy would require such specific foci, when the other end-positive systems do not, nor do the end-neutral systems except for Feruchemy. Thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me Moogle!

Atium. Atium is key. If the Mistborn has Atium to burn, especially lots of it, the Avatar has no chance.

Once you read Elantris, his novella The Emperor's Soul, is a great read. His other novella's are good too if you can get them. Let's be honest, all his work is good.

That art is great! You should totes upload to the Gallery! Welcome, B-T-dubs. Which of the Sanderson works is your favorite?

Thanks, and editted!

I don't see why the northern Scadrians would view the southerners oddly for not having genetic Allomancy. The northerners themselves have a very large population that cannot use Allomancy or Feruchemy. The southerners, in the situation you've detailed, might view the northerners as strange though. However the situation you've detailed implies they have access to Feruchemy, just not Allomancy. I am excited to see them meet each other for the first time. I'm most interested in what southern Scadrial is like. As a side note, it would be greatly beneficial for the forum if you would run a quick grammar check before posting. Just give your own post a once over before hitting the post button (alternatively just edit your post after posting). I hope you don't read that with a rude tone, I was not intending to be rude. I simply had to read your post a good four or five times to - hopefully - understand what you were saying. Thanks!

I think it is more likely that the process of an individual Returning is completely separate of Endowment. It is just a series of events that occur. The Returned have full control over whom they gift their Divine Breath to, and for what purpose. If Endowment was sending the Returned specifically with the purpose of changing the future, why would s/he not specifically tell them what they are meant to do? Why give them free will? Editted for gender neutrality.

That is an interesting theory. Personally, I believe the opposite. I think that they are originally genetic, and the mechanical form of the arts is the "meddled" form. This is because the magic systems on the other shardworlds are not naturally mechanical. Granted, they are not naturally genetic either (at least I have no proof/evidence). Rather than call it genetic, though, I prefer the term biological. Breath is a biological system, and the basis of Awakening. The magics on Sel all seem to have a biological aspect (the only one that is not necessarily biological is the form of magic performed by the Jindoese individual whose name escapes me). On Roshar, I'm not sure how I would classify the system. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "mechanical"? I think I might be confused...Thanks.

True story. (in reference to title of thread) Welcome! After Elantris I highly recommend Warbreaker. Take an upvote (and avoid the cookies).

You've read almost all his other Cosmere novels, might as well read Elantris next (it's also fantastic). Moreover, when you say that you've read Mistborn, I presume you mean the whole trilogy? If so, consider Allow of Law, as it is a fun, banter-filled slightly more modern Mistborn! If not, then why not finish the trilogy? The Well of Ascension is the second book, followed by The Hero of Ages. Edit: The Rithmatist was also a very fun read. It is rather juvenile though, as far as reading level. Though it is classified as "teen", like Steelheart, it is definitely meant for younger teens and the YA market, unlike Steelheart.

I totally agree. Ialai definitly has power, but I don't believe she'll be physically active in the politics like Navani is. Instead she'll be deaftly manipulating people using her spies.