Treamayne

So, running with that idea: Would you expect that an "Enlightened" version of other Radient Spren would also offer 1 Surgebinding and 1 Voidbinding ability? Example, if we saw an Enlightened Cultivation Spren bond a Radiant, we would expect thier first ability (Abrasion) to be a regular Surgebinding, but thier version of Progression would be the Voidbinding version?

Fact (assuming Renarin really is Voidbinding - which is RAFO, but heavily supported) and hopefully Rlain in SA5. But we have seen Renarin use Regrowth, and we have seen Lift use Regrowth the same way. So: If Renarin is Voidbinding and his expression of Regrowth matches Lift then at least some expressions of Voidbinding are the same (or so similar that spotting a difference is difficult) Coppermind: WoB:

We do know that Voidbinding the Surge of Regrowth has (so far) been very similar to the surgebinding version. We also know that not all surges are, or will be, similar. Also, some relevant Words of Brandon:

But Gold shows yourself, had your choices been different.

Yeah, I said Electrum (which I will edit) when I should have said Malatium I think. I wasn't implying he saw Moash's future; it was that he was seeing who Moash could have been now had he made different choices in the past. @Frustration True - but "Void of Ilumination" sounds too weird. Voidbing Surge of Illumination? Voidbinding is still manipulating the Surges, just though different means. So, at least to me, until we have a better vocabulary it's still the Surge of illumination - just through Voidbinding rather than Surgebinding.

So, re-reading RoW, I found something in Ch 8 and had a thought. (Spoiler Tags for non-Stormlight Archive References) We've known for a while that Renarin was having problems with his second surge - Illumination. They mentioned repeatedly in Oathbringer that he was having a problem making it work, even after lessons with Shallan. In Chapter 6 (and on the Coppermind, quoted below) we see him finally make some small illusions, as Navani notes: When we get to Chapter 8, we see Kaladin confronting Moash and when Renarin arrives: My conclusion:

I think that the second Windrunner Oath is a bit too personalized (compared to the second Skybreaker Oath), and we know that the Oath is filtered through how both the Proto-Radiant and Spren view those oaths. I would be more inclined to beleive that the way the Skybreakers now function was an adaptation to working in secret after the recreance, rather than how things were done for most orders before the recreance. However, I think both of us have valid points, and there is not enough information to know for sure.

Do you perhaps mean CultivationSpren? Yes, that was my point. I was thinking closer to 65-75%, depending on where the peak of the bell curve should be placed (likely just shy of swearing the 4th Oath - Kaladin's state at the end of Oathbringer)

Concur. In fact, the whole situation has always reminded me of two books by Jim Butcher (Dresden Files #4 - Summer Knight and Codex Alera #5 Princeps' Fury Summer Knight Ch 34 Princeps' Fury Ch 39 Honor has different definitions and expressions for different races, cultures and religions; and I feel that to pass moral judgement on somebody without understanding their point of view can be as bad or worse than the crime(s) you may be condemning.

I think you kind of contradict (or whatever the term would be) yourself here since "Under normal circumstances" and only two examples out of ten orders don't really go together. I would say your example is a Skybreaker-only thing (until we see another order doing something similar). After all, not all orders have Squires, and very few have as many as Windrunners and Skybreakers. Windrunners have been bonding their Spren at the second Oath, not the third REF: Teft in OB with a spren before the third oath; as well as The Lopen and Huio in Dawnshard with spren before the third oath Here's a WoB on the subject. But you are right, it's not so much fact as deductive reasoning. Simple math tells us that the bell curve should put, on average, as many second oath knights as fourth or fifth oath nights (depending on the crest of the bell curve). So, knowing that at least the few hundred Dalinar saw at Feverstone Keep all had their armor implies that there were at least hundreds of Knights yet to earn their sword. Knowing that, I feel it is doubtful that any of them would essentially swear the third oath just so they could break it and trap their Spren in blade form. In fact, I'm not even sure that either side (Spren or Knight) realized what would happen when the oaths were broken and how devastating the consequences would be for the Spren. @KaladinWorldsingerThat was the lure to Dalinar's trap for Amaram; Taln didn't really say anything about a cache of Shardblades (since we have his words from Shallan's POV): WoR Ch 76:

Well, we know that the Nahel Bond helps give Sapience to spren in the Physical Realm. We also "know" that the Singer bond does not By "know", I mean that in all of Venli and Eshonai's POVs we have never seen interaction between a Singer and spren bonded in the Gemheart - though we have seen interaction between Venli and Timbre (even with Timbre in the Gemheart) - who share a Nahel Bond. . . I imagine it being something like this: Humans arrive and are granted the territory in and around modern Shinovar; which is remade by Honor and Cultivation to have the soil and other elements from Ashyn (if that is where the "refugees" were coming from) Honor makes the Honorblades (possibly to mimic the Investiture from Ashyn the Humans had) Spren start to for nahel bonds, finding that the sapience it brings is a more rewarding symbiotic relationship that the current one with Singers Odium quiety "arrives" and begins to meddle Humanity, like it always does, is no longer happy with a small country and starts to invade other territories Spren begin to change the Nahel Bond to more closely mimic the Honorblades, giving humanity the edge in fighting for territory Odium, like an arms merchant, starts "helping" both sides just to escalate the wars Odium helps create the Regal Forms for Singers to counter surgebinding Honor forms the Oathpact - Singers are betrayed their original god chooses humans over them (when really, he's just trying to counter Odium - but they can;t know that); this also results in the Heralds and Fused Desolations begin. . .

@AFdooda @Duxredux Maybe I screwed up on that first post. Dalinar's sentence "I am Unity" immediately precede's Stormfather's "These words are accepted." Here's the full sequence: So, reading through it again now. . . New Theory. "I am Unity" could be Dalinar's 5th Oath as a Bondsmith (in the way that Nale's 5th Oath was "I am Law"). If this is the case, then we are missing an oath somewhere. . -or- It could be his 4th Bondsmith Oath, by the way he "calls" Gloryspren the way Kal calls windspren as he nears his Fourth Oath in OB and actually swears the Fourth Oath in RoW. For 1: Stormfather replies that the words are accepted after "I am Unity" The Gloryspren gather after the "I will . . . better man" Oath, as if that was the Fourth Oath We don't know if Dalinar will gain Plate (the same way he doesn't get a Shardblade) - so using Gloryspren to pierce the realms may be what the Fourth Oath gives to Bondsmiths instead of (in addition to?) Plate He pulled power from Stormfather, like a Shardblade, to work the Oathgate long before the "I will . . . better man" Oath; which could mean he said the third Oath some time before that scene. We have already seen Dalinar swear two oaths at once before For 2: We know "I will . . . better man" Oath is the third Oath we have seen (or recognized for what it is) Odium was somehow keeping Stormfather from contacting Dalinar, so we may not have "heard" the acceptance of the "I will . . . better man" Oath, or it was delayed until Dalinar could hear "hear" him again - which just happened to be after the "I am Unity" In which case, Stormfather's Lines - "These Words … are accepted," and "How? What have you done?" are referencing the "I will . . . better man" oath and "I am Unity" conundrum respectively Dalinar doesn't act in RoW as if he knows he's already sworn the Fifth Oath We have already seen Dalinar swear two oaths at once before TCBGCs?

Nearly anything can be used as a weapon, or viewed as such after it causes harm. I had an Art Teacher who actually (like all young students are told; but never believe) lost his eye when a paper airplane hit him in the face. That does not mean that "Paper Airplanes are weapons." I wasn't quibbling that a Dawnshard, especially used incorrectly, wouldn't/couldn't cause harm - I was merely pointing out that the quote being referenced (which I provided in my post) did not reference them as weapons or even pieces of a weapon when discussing how they were involved in the Shattering. I believe that imprecise wording like that, espcialy when quoted and repeated, leads to false assumptions and inhibits theory discussion. Here's the relevant section from Oathbringer Ch 113 (with the non-conversation part trimmed out) However, notice it's not that "Honor called them weapons;" it's that a mad and dying Honor referenced them being used as weapons, which we discussed above. So, it's obvious they can be viewed as a weapon (because they can cause harm - especially when misused); but unlikely that they *are* a weapon in any traditional sense. We also know that Tanavast was afraid they would be used to destroy Roshar. One thing I have been considering lately: Just a thought Agreed, Brandon RAFOs any question about why Unity was capitalized in Dalinar's Statement. But note that it wasn't "directly after swearing his third Bondsmith Oath" it was his third Bondsmith Oath. However there was one WoB odd exchange that might help theorize: Just some of the wording and evasiveness there makes me think it is partially BS answering a question slightly different from the one that was asked (which he admits happens sometimes when he is rushing or doesn't quite understand what is being asked - so the question and answer don't quite line up) From that, I would guess that "he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power" refers to pulling Investiture from the SR to recharge spheres - not the part about opening a perpendicularity.

Well, we already knew the Singers felt betrayed because Spren started forming Nahel Bonds with Humans (not the same bond Singers have with spren in their gemhearts, but similar). I always took "Stone and Wind" to be Honor and Cultivation - Honor in the Highstorms (Wind), Cultivation in the Land (stone) since it is implied that The Singers originally worshipped H&C when Odium followed humanity to Roshar; but when Humans started following Honor and Cultivation, the Singers started following Odium. . .

Keep in mind the Metalminds need skin contact, so his bullets would have to be filled before he loaded the them. To do so during a fight, he would have ot have some way to carry them where he maintains skin contact to fill at the beginning of the fight, then use them only for the reloads. . .

Don't forget that not all Radiants to renounce Oaths during the Recreance were of the Third Oath or had the ability to Manifest a Blade (or Plate if Fourth Oath). So we still don't know exactly how that plays out with being a Deadeye (or not); since we do know that Syl did not manifest as a dead blade when Oaths with Kaladin were broken). There has been quite a bit of discussion about these ideas in this thread. Here's the relevant English Passage: Sadeas' murder kinda disproves this. "Oh, a wealthy Shardbearer is dead. . ." but Dalinar has to ask Bridge Four to search for the missing blade and AFAWK nobody else much cares (we certainly don't see squads of Sadeas Soldiers searching for it). I'm not saying that your scenario won't happen; just that apathy or "assumed stolen" are equally likely results of a dead/missing Shardbearer. Have we confirmed that for a blade that has manifested in the Physical Realm, the Deadeye disappears from the Cognitive Realm? If yes, this this could explain the small number of Deadeyes as lost blades are trapped in the PR, so the Deadeye is "missing" If no, then I wonder if it is possible to break your bond with a blade without manifesting it first (we see then manifest and break the bond so that the Gem flashes - but is that the only way?); cause I can see people breaking the bond without manifesting the blade to prevent the "enemy" from gaining the blade.

It's likely that Odium also influenced the Hierocracy (just looking at how/why that happened)

Words of Brandon (WoB) on Unity We also know that after calling himself "Unity" Dalinar was able to temporarily reform Honor's Perpendicularity, and that the statement was "Accepted" as a Bondsmith Oath by Stormfather. See below (in answer to the question) for my thoughts on this. Your wording (especially the bolded part) is a bit suspect. Dawnshard Ch 19 They are never called weapons, or even remnants of weapons. In fact, the implication seems to be that they are not a "weapon" in any traditional sense. We only know that they were part of whatever happened to Adonalsium. Also, keep in mind this is an unreliable narrator. We know Nikli was not alive for the Shattering; we don't even know if any Sleepless in the Cosmere is that old. . . so what role the Dawnshards may have played in the Shattering is very suspect. I doubt it. The context of the event, and its aftermath, makes it rather doubtful that Dalinar had/has either a Shard or Dawnshard. After all, we've had viewpoints from Dalinar since this event and he never noticed the same things Rysn did less than a day after her experience. (Warbreaker Spoilers) So, knowing Rayse's response, we know: He Splintered (or at least wounded shy of splintering) Ambition and that the fight happened in the Threnody system, but she finally Splintered elsewhere He Splintered Dominion and Devotion on Sel (and their power is stuck in the CR) He Splintered Honor in the Rosharan system, but was bound during the confrontation and remains "stuck" there So, his outburst of “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!” (OB Ch 119 - see below), and his use of the plural "We" likely means either the Shard and its vessel (we) Splintering Honor; or possibly refer to the group (we) from the Shattering (and it's effects). But without further information, it could be something entirely different. Either way, it seems doubtful that Unity refers to a Shard or Dawnshard. Welcome to the Forums. Post seems fine, though you may want to consider adding links to relevant Coppermind pages and WoBs.

There's always another secret

Are Scadrian's even aware that invested metal is more difficult to push? During TFE, they still had metalminds pierce the body to prevent pushes. Also, Marsh has no problems pushing Sazed's rings in WoA, so the amount of charge in a metalmind that small doesn't seem like enough to make much difference

And after that, because he realized that all of the witnesses could be influenced by Amaram, he went to the trouble of bonding (what he thought was) Taln's blade, then setting up the sting operation to test Amaram's loyalty about searching out the shardblades. But yes, he should have kept Kal in the loop of the investigation and its stages.

AFAIK, that's just called Yolish Magic

You'll get that info in a future interlude in this book

WoB - Voidbinding