alder24

18 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Treamayne and @alder24, I'll answer you both without fiddling with quotes because I'm on mobile right now.  Treamayne makes a good point, it could be F-Gold, but there's something more going on. The Cycle stopped healing after a shot to the head, then started back up. In Marasi's after action report to Wax, Wax said that should be impossible , and I'm adding if F-Gold is the only source of healing.

Interestingly just after a Q&A board question most of us looked at and weighed in asking if Inquisitors are Cognitive Shadows, we concluded that they are probably not - but I think this Cycle might have been made one after death. I don't think we have any information on Autonomy Cognitive Shadows, but I think it's time you start looking. I've been thinking about this ever since the Set Faceless Immortal told Edwarn that he would be permitted to serve elsewhere in the Set - and proceeded to blow both of them up.

Now I'm getting more hypothetical, but maybe Autonomy figured out how to condense and automate what Kelsier did to staple himself back into his body using Hemalurgy - basically embedding a spike that is setup to capture and transform the soul when the bearer dies and then Hemalurgically reconnect the new Cognitive Shadow to the body. Perhaps some aspect of their new nature let's them reshape their body or heal - (greater cosmere spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

basically a hacked version of a Returned.

 

I doubt this is happening, it would require too much investiture than it was in spikes. Healing can be done when unconscious, as your body will have the intent to survive, enough to reach and tap goldmind or burn pewter. I think the red eyes are an indication of corruption (obviously) and also that Autonomy/Trell is there and maybe even taking over. The Cycle didn't stop healing after the shot to the head, he should have stopped, but he continued to heal anyway - that's something new. Autonomy's faceless immortals are something else to consider. TLM ch 6:

Quote

The Cycle followed, sticking her knife into his belt. Then, horribly, his eyes started to glow faintly red. “Trell is choosing hosts,” he said. “Avatars, bestowed with his power. How would you like to be the accomplishment that proves I’m worthy of immortality, lawwoman? All you have to do is die.”
[...]
A shot to the head should stop a Bloodmaker from healing, but some part of her insisted she should check anyway. She lurched over to inspect the corpse. And found the bullet wounds pulling closed on the man’s head, the holes in the skull resealing.
Rusting hell.
She heaved the slumped-over body onto its back and scrambled to pull her knife from his belt. He was healing from bullets to the head? Something was very wrong here. She shot him again, but that would only be temporary.
[...]
The Cycle’s eyes snapped open, despite his broken jaw and the holes in his skull. Marasi cursed and worked faster, bloodied fingers straining to pry out the first of the four spikes, which was so tightly embedded between his ribs it was difficult to yank free.
Those eyes. They were glowing a vivid red now.
“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”
Marasi gritted her teeth, working on the rusty-looking spike, slick with blood.
“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

That sounds just like what Miles had said before his death. Telsin also had red glowing eyes - that's Trell in my opinion, it is taking over and talking and also providing an intent to heal despite head wounds. TLM ch 34:

Quote

Marasi followed their gaze back toward Telsin, looking so proud and confident. As she watched, Marasi could swear that Telsin’s eyes began to glow a soft red. The faintest of light. It was gone a moment later

And here is Autonomy talking directly to Wax using a spiked, dying person - with glowing, red eyes. TLM ch 55:

Quote

He stopped before the final one. She was bloodied but breathing, and when her eyes slipped open there was a faint red glow to them.
“Ah,” she said in a rasping voice. “You are good at this. We thought we had taken enough precautions. Yet here you are. Breathing down our neck. Such drive. Such individualism. A shame that Harmony got you first.”
Wax backed away, leveling the gun at her.
“This body soon expires,” the creature said. “You need not concern yourself.”
“What are you?”
“You know what I am,” she whispered.
“Trell.”
“Your sister becomes Trell,” the thing whispered. “The name and mythology I prepared for her to adopt. But she has not achieved it yet. And I am not Trell. Rare is it that I speak to one directly as I do you.”
“Autonomy,” he whispered.
“Yes. Pierced by my metal. Soul open to my touch…”

And when Harmony cut off Telsin's Connection to Autonomy, her eyes stopped glowing red - so the red eyes are about Autonomy directly, TLM ch 66:

Quote

Hit her, Harmony, Wax thought. Cut her off. Now.
Telsin gasped. She stumbled, the red glow to her eyes fading, her lips parting, and fell motionless to the rooftop.

SA spoilers WoB:

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Now this has some interesting implications. 

If Hemalurgic iron can be used this way without transforming you into a Koloss or something else, it suggests that the amount of Investiture may be directly correlated with the amount of change a spike can bring.

I theorize a minimum charge isn't going to warp you into a construct, as the "information" of the Spiritweb fragment has decayed into a plain Invested charge.

Or, perhaps very, very tiny but beneficial changes could be brought about? For instance, maybe you'd get very, very slightly taller or stronger, and this may be part of why Wax is particularly tall? 

Yes, it has very interesting implications. I have no idea how I've missed this before. I need to start reading Cosmere in English only  

I think there are some ways to use one attribute spike without warping you into a construct, some physical deformation may happen, especially if you're not careful, but if done correctly with the right intent and right binding point an iron spike holding strength might just make you more muscular, with no additional warping. Or this iron spike was charged with something different than an attribute - that's also a possibility. ReLuur have pewter Blessings, we already have examples of using metals outside of their designated role. 

In Wax's case I don't think it makes him taller - he is always tall, no matter if he wears the spike or not and that was only the 4th spike given to him. He didn't say it looks like the spike he used to kill Lessie, so I think the 1st and 3rd spike (and possibly the 2nd one too) were made out of a different metal than the iron spike - inquisitor spike as per WoB (and VenDell in BoM said his earring was made out of old inquisitor spikes).

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Example [allomancy, physical quadrant, external metal]: A Savant Coinshot or Lurcher could be able to create the shields that we have seen that Wax can make (This way we preserve the fact that Wax is a Savant but it will no longer be from resonance but from a single skill), that would be the advantage.

Just to point out, Wax was not the only one able to create steel bubbles - he met a Coinshot in the train scene in BoM who was doing the same thing. This is not the effect of Savanthood or resonance, it's pure skill. BoM ch 7:

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Now the disadvantage would be that his body has been "allomantically charged." What does this mean? Well, although it has increased its output power and precision (consciously), unconsciously and while it is not burning metals, there is still a repellent effect (in the case of the Coinshot) that would continue to affect nearby metals, as if it were a kind of "drain".

That's impossible without burning metals. You need to drain power from SR, you need kinetic investiture for that. Your body being made out of smoke isn't the same as using Allomancy without burning metals. 

What if they just got addicted to the feeling of freedom and soaring up in the sky? Or the moment they stop burning they feel blind without their steelsight. It's not perfect but looking at how Spook felt without tin it fits more. Savantism feels more like addiction both with Spook and Kaza - without using their power they feel dull. And that's fine by me.

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Anyway, what do you think of the subject and what would you do if you are in your hands to address it?

Duralumin savant would be useless. I think some powers have to have weaker effects of Savanthood because many powers aren't that useful on their own, or have some strong, visible effect - just like Sazed told in epigraphs. But we will see what Brandon will do with Savants. 

18 hours ago, The Stormfather said:

Wayne = dustbringer.

Good choice, but I think Lightweaver would fit him as well for his personal growth. There were a lot of truths about himself that Wayne had to realize, one was that he didn't need forgiveness anymore, that he was a good man after all. It took him too long to acknowledge that. TLM ch 71:

Quote

Wayne nodded, then hesitated, looking toward Harmony. “Will this … earn me forgiveness?”
“Oh, Wayne,” Harmony said. “You’ve heard this from Wax. You have to hear it from me too, I think. You can’t do this for forgiveness. You need no forgiveness, not anymore.”
And … he was right.
Wayne wasn’t doing this for forgiveness, or out of shame, or out of a need to prove himself. He wasn’t the man he’d been when Wax pulled him out of his hiding place. He was someone different

11 hours ago, Duxredux said:

To the OP's question, I'll point out the Hemalurgic spike that Harmony did provide that Wax did utilize. Trellium. The spike which allowed Wax to Connect with Telsin, allowing Wax the detective to locate and track the group that had been obscured from Harmony's sight. It gave Wax a way to get into the mind of his opposition and with that knowledge outplay his sister and ultimately identify the bomb launched at Elendel. It enabled Wax in ways that Harmony himself was restricted, and provided sorely needed intel after 6 years of chasing shadows.

True, good point. I will point out that this wasn't the only spike Wax has received from Harmony. The first one was given to him by MeLaan before the events of AoL, the second one was given to him after killing Lessie with the first spike, in the epilogue of SoS. The third one was given to him in BoM by VenDell just in case,and the forth one I’ve found was given to him in TLM (not the Trellium one that was the fifth one) - this was an iron earring (which I think is the only mention of the metal used for the Pathian earring, apparently it was traditionally).

Wax used the first earring extensively and it was the most significant one he had worn - used to pray, communicate with Harmony in AoL and SoS, most importantly used to kill Lessie. He ignored the second and third earrings given to him and used the forth one as the Sword of Harmony in TLM. Those earrings were made out of former Inquisitor and Koloss spikes (the forth one maybe?) and while their power was mostly gone, I bet Harmony chose those earrings specifically to grant Wax the best power he could have needed.

Quotes:

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It is implied that the Trellium Spike was F-Gold. TLM Ch 6:

  Hide contents

Instead, she ripped aside his shirt—revealing four spikes pounded in deep between his ribs. As she had suspected. Knife in hand, she began the gruesome work of digging the spikes out. She dug faster as she realized at least one of them was made of a strange metal with dark red spots like rust. One they’d been searching for forever.

The Cycle’s eyes snapped open, despite his broken jaw and the holes in his skull. Marasi cursed and worked faster, bloodied fingers straining to pry out the first of the four spikes, which was so tightly embedded between his ribs it was difficult to yank free.

Those eyes. They were glowing a vivid red now.

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”

Marasi gritted her teeth, working on the rusty-looking spike, slick with blood.

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

Marasi yanked the spike out. The red glow faded and the body slumped, the healing stopping. She felt at the throat anyway, and even when she found no pulse, she dug out the other three spikes.

With only four spikes, he should not have required a Linchpin Spike, so the fact that the healing stopped when the Trellium Spike was removed is the clue. It could be some other unknown interaction between mixing normal and Trellium spikes, however since we get no further data. 

I didn't pick that up. Wax didn't wear this spike that much so the power in it didn't matter tbf.

He could have also died just like when you remove enough inquisitor spikes - even Marsh in TLM epilogue said not every spike can be removed safely and this might be the case. It doesn't have to contain F-gold, but removing it just killed the Hemalurgist. Wax speculated that this spike was placed as a linchpin spike (the role it had, it may not need to be placed on the back, this one was between ribs), so removing it would kill the person, no matter the power inside. TLM ch 11:

Quote

But lately, Marasi had begun to encounter members of the Set with too many powers. Wax hadn’t believed at first, but if she’d confirmed it …
“The limitation has been circumvented somehow,” Wax said, inspecting the trellium spike. “Perhaps it has to do with the placement of this spike, as a linchpin?”

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

It's not truly timeless; it's just not exactly... Solid? In the physical and cognitive realm, causality works mostly how you would expect, with X leading to Y. However, in the spiritual realm, X leads to Y or Z, or sometimes Y leads to X or Z. Time is not linear in the spiritual realm; you have a connection to your past as well as to all of your futures.

You reminded me of this quote from Yumi ch 32:

Quote

“We can slow or speed up time relative to other places or people,” Design said. “That’s easier in the Spiritual Realm, where time flows like water into whatever container you provide. But you can’t go back. Nobody, not even a Shard, can do that.”

1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

i might be misinterpreting what you mean but want to point out that traveling back in time is not ever going to be a part of the cosmere, as stated by brandon. 

I meant CAN'T! Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, that's why SR isn't really timeless as even Shards are experiencing time.

11 hours ago, logicalpencils said:

Forming new Connections, using an Invested Art that can alter a spiritweb, highstorms sending Investiture into gemstones: things in the Spiritual Realm seem to move and change often. How does this square with the Realm's timelessness? Is it because the spiritwebs are tied to temporal beings? And if that's true, do spiritwebs only appear to change but have really always been one constant reality outside of time?

Time still is in the Spiritual Realm, but not really in the same way as it is in the Physical Realm. In SR the time and space are compound into one - time and distance doesn't matter. But Shards still can't travel back in time, they are still moving forward in time, just like you do. However because of this weirdness, sometimes things can start happening as an echo of future Connections that will form, but aren't formed yet - that's why Syl knew Kaladin before they met, because this future Connection was echoing.

Changes still are happening in the Spiritual Realm over time - future sight is the proof of it. The fact that you see a split future the further away you look, or you're influenced by someone else seeing the future, tells you that the future isn't set in metal even in the Spiritual Realm (because that's where you look when seeing the future). Changes are happening, souls are developing, forming new Connections and stuff like that. Things aren't constant in SR, they move through time but just different.

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

They are classified as hemalurgic constructs on the coppermind, but I am unclear on if that rules out them also being cognitive shadows. There is a WoB where he says Kandra are not cognitive shadows because they didn't die they merely changed. 

Two railroad-sized spikes through the brain doesn't seem survivable. Do their spikes simultaneously kill them and "staple" their soul, or an investiture fossil of their soul, to their body? 

 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy#Hemalurgic_Constructs

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9405

 

They are not, they are not invested enough and they didn't die (and they wouldn't be dying out of old age like Marsh without Atium is). BUT they will last longer after death in CR before they fade into the Beyond, because all those spikes invested them more.

They are a Hemalurgic construct and Hemalurgy keeps them alive. Their body shifts, organs move around facilitating spikes. Those spikes contain pieces of stolen spirit webs which are hot wired into their souls - but their soul isn't CS, it isn't a fossil.

11 hours ago, logicalpencils said:

I'm surprised to hear that sex and species are easier to change than adding wings - though maybe that's generous to the human-to-Singer scenario. Sanderson does say it would require "a specific set of circumstances", one of which would be believing yourself to be a Singer. And that's about as likely as believing your body ought to have wings.

I think the difference is that humans and Singers are genetically and Spiritually very close to each other - they can intermix and both Horneaters and Herdazian are descendants of that. They aren't that different from each other, they are both humanoid. Wings on the other hand is a completely different story. There are no humans with wings, a human soul doesn't have wings in them, there are no sapient humanoid species so closely related to humans which also have wings. Wings are as far away from humans as birds are - and that's why it requires messing with your Spirit Web to add wings.

11 hours ago, logicalpencils said:

One of the WoBs says that one's self-perception is recorded in the Spiritual Realm, too, not just in the Cognitive, which further blurs the distinction for me. If the Spiritweb is supposed to be the framework that limits the range of possible states, but then "the way you view yourself" is part of that very framework, the Spiritweb doesn't seem to put limits on the Cognitive at all — healing will always result in "what you think you are", so the Spiritual part is redundant. Well, except that Hemalurgy or Forgery can mess with your self-perception that way.

I thought the Spiritual would work like this.

Cognitive: "I am a cow."

Spiritual: "No, I'm a human, here's all the Connections and Identity confirming that."

But it actually goes like this?

Cognitive: "I am a cow."

Spiritual: "I view myself as a cow; I will heal to this ideal."

Yes, it's confusing, but I don't think that's it. That mental picture existing in SR is not the Spiritual Ideal of yourself, it's just a recording of how you view yourself separate from your Spiritual Ideal. The cow example is a good one because I believe no amount of perception will actually allow you to become a cow - that's the framework limitation imposed by your Spiritual Ideal which knows you are a human. 

For example a Forgery has to be believable to stay - you can fool your soul to believe you were born with just one hand, but not that you are a cow - your soul will snap back immediately. At best you can actively fight against your own spirit that tries to snap back by constantly using investiture - that was what Rashek was doing with his age change. He had to constantly tap F-Atium to push against his soul's attempt to snap him back to his original age, which eventually happened when Vin removed his metalminds and investiture stopped pushing against his soul. While your age is a bit different from your health (you can't heal your age), the mechanism should be the same when you go extremely against your Spiritual Ideal. 

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Close enough. Just keep in mind that for Example type 1, the Spiritweb is not changing at all. The Spiritweb is based on the concept of the Platonic Ideal - so if your Cognitive Identity (filter) is within the range of the Spiritweb's Ideal, then things flow and healing matches the filtered Ideal.

It's only when the Cognitive Filter is outside of that Ideal that some method is required to change the Spiritweb.

That's it. I was just about to post that WoB too. For the second part, either you alter your spirit web directly (Hemalurgy), or you use some invested art and kinetic investiture to constantly push against your spirit web's attempt you restore your body to your Spiritual Ideal (Rashek tapping F-Atium, it didn't change his spirit web, it fought against it).

4 hours ago, logicalpencils said:

From what I can gather, Investiture healing is an act on the Physical self to align it towards the Spiritual self. The three big limitations are access to Investiture, the magic system's particular rules for healing (e.g. all Radiants can self-heal but only two Orders can heal others via Surge of Progression), and the Cognitive self.

What I'm wondering is the distinction between the Cognitive and Spiritual selves. Stormlight Archives frequently comments on wounds being too old to be healed, because the person's Cognitive self has changed to consider the wound part of oneself. Kaladin's scar wouldn't heal itself, again because of a Cognitive impediment: he couldn't let go of what the scar meant to him. Lopen, meanwhile, could heal back a whole arm because he never saw himself as a one-armed Herdazian, and therefore his Spiritual ideal came through.

So we've seen good and bad examples of perception filtering the Spiritual properly or else hindering it: but can the Cognitive harm as well, rather than just hinder? For example, you see yourself as one-armed such that attempting to heal takes your arm off instead?

I believe Kaladin's scar is in fact a minor example of this idea, but it makes me wonder: how can a person tell whether a healing has worked "correctly" (i.e. the Cognitive is well-aligned to the Spiritual), or if there's been an impediment? Because either way, the result will ultimately align with the person's perception and expectations, so judging by what the person "wanted" to happen isn't a foolproof metric.

What's even the difference between the Spiritual and Cognitive self if healing always fits to the Cognitive over the Spiritual when the two are misaligned?

Treamayne answered it very well already, but I will add a few things and WoBs. Healing matches your Physical body to your Spiritual ideal but filtered through your perception (Cognitive self). There are things you can do with it if you have the right perception, but there are also some limits. Things that you ask for are possible with the correct perception, you can heal your arm out, change sex or even heal yourself to become a Singer. But if you want to grow wings, that's a bit too much for your perception to take you there, you need to first mess with your Spirit Web to achieve that - like with Hemalurgy. Is that harmful? Not really, it's how you view yourself - it's you. Healing isn't done just to your Cognitive self, the Spiritual Ideal will limit how far away you can go with it - it's like a framework in which healing is done.

2 hours ago, logicalpencils said:

And anyways, you're right that health vs harm is an irrelevant question to Invested "healing". It's a matter of Spiritual ideal through Cognitive identity. But that's my key question: I thought Identity was a Spiritual attribute, not Cognitive? And if the Cognitive perception is what ultimately matters, what's the Spiritual doing?

Identity is a property of your soul and investiture. It's not divided into Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual parts - it is all Spiritual. It's related to your Spiritual Ideal of yourself, but it isn't just it. Identity is like a key - it prevents foreign investiture from interacting with you while allowing you to access your investiture (but there is more to it, it's still mostly an enigma to us). But your Identity does affect your healing, you can do more if you manipulate your identity (and have a proper perception of yourself):

1 hour ago, Forts Board said:

Okay, granted. However, I was just thinking about it, and Wax is often the type of lawman to go break whatever rules he wants and let other people deal with the damage... and i think this particular trait would be horribly difficult to integrate into the skybreakers.

That's because Wax is the law! He would jump straight into the 5th Ideal!

And Wax got special rights to act as a constable. It was all "legal."

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, yes, that's right.

Actually, what do you think would happen if someone found a way to suffuse their Spiritweb with Ruin's Investiture without Hemalurgic spikes, such as by alloying Lerasium with the right percentage of Atium and then Burning it?

No idea. Feruchemy?

I don't think aluminum coating is the answer, because you go back to the same problem a full aluminum armor has - it will be damaged, cracked, broken and fell off after every physical strike your armor takes. And you will take a lot of hits before you stumble onto a Surgebinder - they are still quite rare. So your aluminum layer will basically get shredded to pieces before you get to fight with a Surgebinder. Not to mention thicker armor would restrict your movements more and it would be heavier.

A layer on the inside of your armor will be mostly protected from physical blows - but your metal armor will be exposed to Surgebinders - it can be Lashed, Soulcasted or dusted by Division. Aluminum will protect your body, but that's it. And once your outside armor is Soulcasted into smoke, it's back to the soft aluminum susceptible to physical damage - a few hits from a Shardhammer or a Magnified One and the armor is broken.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Quick random thought that came to me; if the only difference between a Misting and a Mistborn Snapping is the level of power (which I don't think we have real proof for), then would grafting a Hemalurgic spike to a non-Snapped Scadrien that added a lot to their total level of Investiture and had the same Identity potential make them into a Mistborn?

I don't think so, the spike doesn't add to your innate investiture directly, it's its own separate thing hotwired into your soul. You can do what Set is doing and have the spike grant you Allomancy, but I don't think Hemalurgy can invest you and snap you into a Mistborn. It's possible that Hemalurgy corrupts investiture and Hemalurgically granted abilities draw from Ruin (remember this WoB?), not Preservation so there would be another conflict, if that's correct.

8 minutes ago, ShardofChance said:

I’ve been rereading the Cosmere recently, and while I read Hero of Ages, I started to think. Some of the issues those characters face is the fact that the mist is staying for longer and longer, and soon there will be no more daylight for plants to grow.

The characters seemed very worried about this, with good reason, but I find a solution pretty easy. Mist cannot enter buildings so why not build a greenhouse for plants to grow in. I’m not sure how tall this building would need to be, but it’s only as tall as a Mistborn can Push on a coin before the link is almost gone. 
 

This greenhouse would also remove the extreme labor needed to remove ash from crop fields. While this would certainly be challenging, I am certain that the might of the New Empire could achieve this task. I recognize that perhaps there were bigger issues going on at the time, but I almost wonder if they had just focused on food generation and building as many greenhouses as possible, they might have had some success. Of course the gathering Koloss army would just kill everyone anyway.

 

What do we think of this idea for stopping the mists? Anyone have any better ideas? 
 

This is my first post here so I’m sorry if anything is wrong or odd.

Hello, welcome to the Shard!  

Stop Mists? There was no stopping them. The book actually admits that the bigger problem was ash, it would kill them faster then Mists. The rate of ashfall increased after Ruin was freed. Greenhouses wouldn't help, they would need to be too big to cover entire fields and too tall to get above Mists to allow the sunlight to enter through the roof. And they would be very costly to build. Even if they manage to build one, it would quickly collapse under the weight of falling ash. There was no other way to stop what was coming other than how it went. HoA ch 5:

Quote

"You have to admit now that the sun is getting darker. Redder. It's even worse down here, in the South."
"Actually," Elend said, "I doubt that the sun has changed at all. It must be all the smoke and ash in the air."
"Which is another problem," Vin said. "The ash falls almost perpetually now. People are having trouble keeping it out of their streets. It blots out the light, making everything darker. Even if the mists don't kill off next year's crops, the ash will. Two winters ago—when we fought the koloss at Luthadel —was the first I'd seen snow in the Central Dominance, and this last winter was even worse. These aren't things we can fight, Elend, no matter how big our army!"

47 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

It is also one of the reasons why I see the 8, since from the information we have on Dawnshard, it may be a circle. In that case the opposite position would be the eighth since from 16 it would jump to 1

Nah, I think that's a square with 4 quadrants, like an Allomantic table. 

There is this excellent topic made by Firesong in which she went by every world finding what numbers appear in it, check it out:

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

Ruin [11 or 8]:

Kandra are more of Preservation than of Ruin. Sure, they are made with Spikes, but they were made to serve Preservation. 11 is hard to pinpoint. Koloss have different sizes, the biggest had like 15 feet if I remember correctly, so I don't think it's a reliable number to point towards Ruin. Inquisitors had 9-11 spikes - it's varying again, but 11 is the ideal number of spikes (unless Rashek wants one to have A-duralumin, which they sometimes had, so that's 12). But Rashek made 16 inquisitors at first, - I think we simply don't have enough data.

I personally think Ruin's number is 1 - it's as far as possible from 16, the ideal, polar opposite of Preservation's 16. There are not many significant "ones" in Era 1, except maybe Vin had 1 spike and 1 spike is enough for Ruin to influence people, but I just think it fits thematically.

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

Cultivation [6]:

I personally am in the 3 camp. There are just too many mentions of 3 on Roshar to ignore it. But 6 is a strong candidate. And I agree, 3 is a lot in Sel as well.

11 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I think "shifted" toward Ruin or Preservation might not be the best way to look at the difference between the persona of Harmony and the persona of Discord.

Quote

The point is Harmony, creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices.

—Harmony's stated interest[6]

Honestly...this definition of Harmony could apply equally well to Discord in my opinion, the difference is whether the recipients of the gifted freedom of choice work together harmoniously (which, in a literal interpretation could be like many complimentary voices overlaid to form natural cords), or if they work together independently/asymmetrically (IE: in competition with each other or with many potentially extreme disparate elements juxtaposed).

I concede that it sounds confirmed that Harmony could simply "invert" himself to Discord though it almost feels like cheating. For some reason I want to imagine them both as freedom loving polar opposites; the former dedicated to human development through the encouragement of cooperation, collaboration, and restraint...and the latter a chaotic counterpart willing to engage the forces of competition and conflict to keep humanity liberated even if it means improvising and tipping scales manually.

That's an interesting way to look at this. It makes a lot of sense. I like it. 

12 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I feel like Sazed is usually very serious, methodical, and reserved...I'd like for Discord to be funny in a dark way, unpredictable and a little unhinged at times, and way too free with their thoughts.

I don't think Sazed will change that much. Sazed doesn't like death and harm, but he understands they are necessary parts of human life and is willing to harm someone if that's needed (Wax) - and this is a path Discord will follow. Conflict and harm are necessities in human life.

26 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Honestly, I don't believe Sazed can become Discord, and will simply have to drop the Shards and be replaced or die and be replaced instead sadly...

He can:

26 minutes ago, hwiles said:

that said...is Discord always a bad thing?

No. I think it will be a good thing for Scadrial. Sazed would be able to act, not all might agree with Sazed but I think it will spark an era of progress guided by Discord - probably an arms race during a cold war.

 TFE ch 8 epigraphs:

Quote

"His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

However in which direction his Discord would be shifted - will it be towards Ruin because there is more Ruin than Preservation in him, or will it be towards Preservation because Sazed chooses to Preserve more than to Ruin? That might define how Sazed will act in the future - not that Ruinous Discord would be a bad thing, just more... deadly.

11 hours ago, Franklin said:

Can someone bond with a deadeye? also can a spren bond with two different people at the same time?

As said earlier, every Shardbearer is bonded with their deadeye Shardblade, but that's not a Nahel Bond, no powers are gained with that bond. The Nahel Bond requires conscious agreement from a spren and a deadeye can't do that, because their mind and soul is too severely damaged. Have you read RoW? Spoilers for RoW:

There is one known spren that successfully bonded with many people at once - Ba-Ado-Mishram. She bonded with every Singer and gave them Forms of Power and Voidlight. But that's not the same as a Radiant Nahel Bond. A True Spren is not as big as an Unmade, and the Nahel Bond is a bit more restrictive. Technically speaking, the Nahel Bond is a Spren filling cracks in Radiant's soul with their own soul. A True Spren won't be able to share his own soul like that between two different people. WoR synopsis:

Quote

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

The Emperor's Soul spoilers:

But, while a spren can't bond two knights, a person can bond two or more spren. That would however require all spren to agree to share that person, something that not all might be willing to agree. 

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As for a Spren Bonding multiple people, I'm fairly certain that the closest thing to this is Squires,

I think Squires are bonded to a Radiant, not to their spren directly. A Radiant shares his Nahel Bond through his Connections to Squires, so I don't think this would count at all. 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I have a theory as to why this Innate Investiture is higher on Shardworlds than on non-Shardworlds.

I believe that this is because of or at least connected to the Second Law of Investiture; in simple terms, Investiture likes to flow from high states of concentration into lower states of concentration.

This means that when a Spiritweb forms in a developing baby that the Investiture of the SR, and the Shard Connected to it, begins to meld to that Spiritweb, Investing it further than it would be otherwise as the Shard counts as a single object/entity and therefore has a much, much higher concentration of Investiture than the newly forming Spiritweb. The Connection is the bridge between the Shard and the person, so it is what determines how much of the Investiture is drawn into the new Spiritweb.

There is a set amount of naturally given Investiture whenever a person is conceived on a Shardworld based on the strength of the Connection between the Shard and the person.

If a person's Spiritweb had a genetically higher Connection to the Shard in question (such as if you Burned Lerasium and Connected more strongly to Preservation), more of this extra Connection would be passed to their children, thus making the Investiture be drawn to the Spiritwebs more than it would from natural levels of diffusion, as there is a larger bridge for the Investiture to cross.

This is my personal thought for this as of right now.

Actually, it kind of makes me wonder if you could temporarily increase your Connection to, say, Endowment via Feruchemical duralumin when conceiving a child in order to give them a super-Breath when they were born. Or, maybe if that Connection isn't transferred, you could Connect the child while developing to the Shard, making their Spiritweb fill with more Investiture than normal, which would "solidify" once they were done growing and become a permanent part of them.

Thoughts?

It's a reasonable theory, but I agree with @JustQuestin2004 - the amount of ambient investiture in a major Shardword is also a contributing factor. The fact that supports this is that to be reliably born with a Breath you don't just need to have both parents from Nalthis, you also need to be born on Nalthis otherwise you will get weaker and weaker Breaths with each new generation, until your grandkids won't have Breaths anymore. 

This environmental investiture would invest souls that have a Connection to the planet and maybe even invest them in a way to strengthen their Connection to Shards present in the system, allowing the soul to draw investiture directly from SR. Either way, it's important.

Parents strengthening their Connection to their Shard/planet might help, but I think it's more about kids Connection to that Shard and planet - you would need to manipulate their Connection instead. For parents when conceiving a child it would matter if they were able to permanently overwrite their spirit web, a temporary change isn't enough - something like Feruchemy or Hemalurgy doesn't modify your sDNA and that's what is passed down on your kids. But without environmental investiture it won't be the same as if the kid were to be born on their home world.

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

I have long been confused about why Harmony doesn't seem able or willing to invest spikes for his agents to utilize directly. Aside from bringing them closer to himself spiritually (if they accept the gift) they would be more powerful and reliable without having to manually harvest the souls of others...

For every action he takes there is a reaction. When he chooses to directly preserve, he needs to equally ruin as well. He's Harmony, Ruin and Preservation has to be equally expressed. He can't just make spikes that spill no blood because that would shift the balance towards Preservation. He already is unbalanced, he's becoming Discord.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly, which makes them some of the best choices for personal wants (who wouldn't want that?).

Someone who is afraid of heights?

1 hour ago, Forts Board said:

I think Wax would naturally attract an Honorspren...

He would fit Windrunners too, but as a secondary order. He's a lawman, he hunts criminals, he's an ideal Skybreaker.

54 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Reason being tied (SA Spoilers)

Yes, very much tied to this. Why the spoiler box? It's the Cosmere section.