alder24
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Posts posted by alder24
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2 hours ago, therunner said:
No time to answer fully today (sorry about that), but one note to this: there is not evidence the bomb is actually that powerful (to destroy both Elendel and Bilming).
The only mention of that is by Sazed who seems to be panicking in the moment, and literally 2-3 sentences prior tells Wayne he has no idea how powerful the bomb is. And immediately afterwards expresses fear that the bomb will set atmosphere on fire (an actual fire physicists had prior to detonation of nuclear bombs).
So the statement on hitting both Elendel and Bilming comes from someone who tells us he has no idea what he is talking about, and shortly afterwards makes another estimate we know to be wrong. So I would not put much stock in that estimate.
It is still a nuke, and I would assume it would destroy Elendel in entirety, bu I would expect the blast radious to be about ~4-5 miles to destroy Elendel. This would still put it at circa double Fat Man, so about 40 kT.Maybe that's better you can't respond to everything, it's getting too long
Yes, there are only Sazed words for that, and estimates of what Harmonium with water does. But that the only informations we got, so what other choice we have? And maybe he is distracted, he is the only one that can properly evaluate it's power for us, as he knows that stuff better than Wax. And about ignition of atmosphere, he know how to make thermonuclear weapons, and they are made with putonium nuclear detonation igniting fusion, so it's reasonable in his distracted mind to worry about it, as he can't run math that fast or something? I don't know why he said that tbf. But he is the only source on that estimation.
And we are scaling it down to more reasonable levels, and I used only once - to denay Roshar entrance. So, going with you, to fully destroy Elendel (radius of 5 miles/8 kilometers) with a surface blast (not airborn), Set would have to have bomb with a yield of 5.5 MT. And that's still a big one.
And I'm using https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ to establish that, looking at moderate blast damage radius, to fully destroy most buildings.
But even smaller bombs, like Fat Man (20kT) would destroy all of Roshar forces if concetrated in one place, when crossing. And when delivered by rockets it's an airburst, so their range increases.
EDIT
But wait, that is only if the explosion happens in the middle of the city, they had bomb on the ship to be detonated in the port - so we need to double the radius - 16km. And that's precisely 43MT - the biggest, Tsar Bomb, had 50 MT.1 hour ago, therunner said:Well, they are the only source of Harmonium on the planet, so how will Northerners make H-T bombs without them?
They don't have that much Harmonium available, Malwish are stingy with it.The one they already have, the one confiscated from Set.
1 hour ago, therunner said:Scadrial already has hundreds of miles of train tracks to check, how do you propose they do that regularly, much less replace it on the spot?
Are they always checking with spare train tracks?There are already workers working on the train lines, inspecting them, checking for damage and obstructions, incoming trains also reports damaged sections. Train tracks will be delivered on trains... so that's fast. And they have radio. So you would only need to increase their numbers using system already in place. Do you really believe that few train track damaged would paralyzed entire network and forced Scadrial to capitulate? And I wonder how Windrunners will feel with causing trains to derail killing innocent civilians? I think they would be strongly against that.
1 hour ago, therunner said:Kinda yeah, Set had years to perfect it and they could not do it
Since the H-T bomb requires a lot of electricity to run it is possible they will not be able to put it on rockets until they invent small nuclear reactors or some such.Because Set wanted much bigger effect, in war it is not necessary. They wanted strategic nuclear weapon, I want tactical. I don't want to level city.
When rocket on ground - use electricity from the grid, when airborn, use generators on board to do it. Set had everything done, they just couldn't make rocket big enough to fit bomb they wanted to use, which they couldn't scale down. We can.1 hour ago, therunner said:Why? All it means is that Dalinar can use all his powers off-world easily, not just create perpendicularities.
To recharge huge numbers of gems with Stormlight for ever increasing needs of the army and Radiants? He would have to do it few times a day.
1 hour ago, therunner said:I.e. if need be you can have Windrunner strike team that can hit anywhere in the Basin, which was the original reason for my statement on Kaladin.
Yes, they can do a lot of damage. but it also carries a risks, as if they get cut off Stormlight, they will be dead.
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14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:
I would like to ask you to refrain from ad hominem.
I'm sorry if you fell offended, I didn't mean that.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:2. Radio doesn't allow interplanetary communication. Additionally it can be intercepted
It's not needed for Scadrial defence. and Roshar doesn't have technology to intercept it.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:I find that highly unlikely given that even in the face of potential Malwish invasion the best they could get is 10,000 individuals.
As there is no immediate threat of invasion, no mass mobilisation announced?
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Shardplate absorbs the impact of Renarin falling tens of feet onto his head without a crack. And even if you draw the stormlight from a gem Radiants rarely crack them, and the more perfect they are the less likely they are to do so.
Not every Radiant will have Sharplate. Pure pressure wave of nearby explosion will crack their gems and that would cause light to leak fast.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:That won't stop the boulder that they just gave a quadruple lashing down from crashing into your artillery pieces. Not to mention the massive waste of munitions that would be.
No it won't. But that's not the waste of ammunition, as it serves its purpose, and with factories they can be made quickly.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:How lucky then that Dalinar will be learning from the man who did it.
Yes, that "master" that set his whole planet ablaze. And they will be talking about remading Oathpact.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You know how they had to be forced to do it, and most of the time armies will move faster than civilians.
And they will be forced to do it here to? Slowing down Rosharian army that is engage with Scadrial's army?
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Raysium isn't used to make anti-light, and you have 10 years to make conjoined gems of different sizes.
It helped moving light from gem to gem fast.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The Stormfather is omnipresent
Yes, that WoB, but I have a question as I want to better understand it. Does that "omnipresence" refers to whole Cosmere, or just Roshar, as question was asked more about Roshar itself? On Rorshar Stormfather is omnipresent, in Cosmere - I don't know. And Shards are bound to the sysmtes they invested in as well. And if that omnipresence is bounded by Roshar, then Stormfather will be needed to be moved to Scadrial the same way as other sprens, which would be devastating but let's ignore that.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:My point was that people ready for high ideals are quite common.
And we've never seen them (Hoid is not an example). So let just say, that they will progress normaly as others, but there are squires that are ready for bonding and jumping into 3rd Ideal.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:As @therunner said he only had to do it at the start of each conversation, he could hold it for as long as he likes.
SpoilerQuestioner
Dalinar can learn languages with the people he contacts. Venli knows all the languages. Could he learn all the languages? And how long would that last?
Brandon Sanderson
His Connection is going to work-- He has to kind of be active about it, so it needs to be-- let me see if I can get the specific words right...
The mechanics I have in the notes is he has to touch someone and will learn to speak the language of their native country, that they spoke as a young person. He's making a direct Connection to that specific person and their way of speaking. So if you have learned another language and Dalinar shakes your hand and activates his Connection ability, he will Connect not to that language you've learned, but to your native language.
Questioner
How long does it last?
Brandon Sanderson
I have it lasting-- it does need to be renewed, but I have it lasting basically as long as-- days not months. But I didn't actually put a define on it, so I'm going to say that's not canon. I'm not canonizing that. But I didn't want him to have to keep renewing it every couple of hours. But he would have to do it again if he left and came back.
Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Windrunners can move several hundred mph, so no walking. So yes an hour is completely reasonable.
Windrunner under water? Where water resistance is 1000 times greater than air? No.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:But how that manifests takes different forms. One can logically conclude, "Other orders will bond, so the best way to save Roshar is to bond myself so I have some influence over this."
If they were consider bonds they some would do it just like some Honorsprens did it, but they didn't. Now they think surges are even greater danger.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:That's just going to deplete your already small population even faster. And that still won't work as a distraction, because again, human souls are really obvious.
10 million people. And it might work long enough, and that's the wholo point of it.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:I don't think that an underground group suicidally dedicated to the destruction of Elendel would willingly hand over documents or work for them, more likely they would destroy their research and kill themselves rather than be taken in.
Some might, most want to live, as they were doing it to be alive.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You are clearly overestimating the power of this explosion if the light alone will vaporize everyone for kilometers. I thought this was supposed to be a medium sized weapon. And how is plasma being formed in a vaccum? Heat can only be transfered in the form of thermal radiation, so there won't be a shockwave to break the box open. The vaccume changes quite a bit actually.
That's what that level of power is duing (kilometers as 1-4). I'm usually thinking about 15MT bomb, yet even smaller one as 1MT will be enough, as there is no need for someting more powerful. The bomb in TLM was estimated to destroy both Bilming and Elendel if exploded in the middle of the bay - they are around 70 miles away from each other, so 112km, so radius of 56km - that's a looooot. Not even Tsar Bomb had that big power - so I'm scaling down a lot, and giving them few bombs made from leftovers, less than 10, yet I'm using fewer in my predictions. It's hard to estimate what H-T bomb can make, as we didn't get specific numbers about amount of material used in them and power.
The very material making that bomb will became plasma. "there won't be a shockwave to break the box open" I'm sorry what? That bomb will be levitating in the middle of the box or will be connectet to it? And what will happen to the energy released, that I'm sure you know, can't be destroy? Disappear? It will be transmited by different medium - particles and electromagnetic waves - that will transfer so much energy to the box it will vaporised it, and will transfer that energy into the air surrounding the box, heating it up, compreasing it, and expanding outwards - making the same heatwave, pressure wave, fireball etc - the little box of vacuum won't change anything, as in nuclear explosion releases to much energy to be contained by it.
But we can switch vacuum for hydrogen/helium/nitrogen gas or whatever they come up with. They can make hydrogen with electrolysis.15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They aren't if it isn't a genocide.
So it's accidental mass species murdur - still resulting of death of 8 species.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They have larger range than copperclouds do, and they last long enough to be used instead of logs for fires, so several hours a piece. Not to mention the fact that there will be more of them than there are copper mistings.
And the fabrials are still gems susseptable to explosions happening nearby.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Then why don't they ask their buddy The Survior, who has religious authority over half the city to bail them out. If they can even be found later when sitting out in a cozy bunker guarded by an identity lock.
Because it's a SECRET organisation?
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Because he's been in Lasting integrety the entire time Ishar has had his honorblade back. Ishar has only had it a few months and Kalak has been their since Jezrien died a year ago.
But the very first moment he apear on page in Lasting Integrity was when he came back from somewhere else? So why he didn't go to the Ishar in that few months if he know what to do, as he wants to get of that planet by all means?
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Invested metal wires that can be plated with aluminum except for the tips which will be inserted into an infused gem.
So tips would be still pushable? And wouldn't aluminum used like that messed up whole fabrial? It has an effect on fabrials.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You still have to spike them specifically in the heart, not to mention that they can heal hemalurgy.
With what bond? The one that was stolen? And apperently sprens might get even quickly killed before they will break their bond, but that will not happen, it's just to kill Radiants
SpoilerQuestioner
So, the fan page wanted to know. Would it be possible for Hemalurgy to steal a living Shardblade? That was the top voted question.
Brandon Sanderson
Ok, so you're bonded to a Shardblade. You get spiked, then they spike off the bond so that the Shardblade is bonded to someone else.
Questioner
I assume so...
Brandon Sanderson
But can they do it with a living Shardblade? You can definitely do it with a dead Shardblade because its just stealing the Connection. With a living Shardblade, yes you could do that 'though the spren could break the bond at will.
Questioner
So the spren would survive? That was the second-- the corollary--
Brandon Sanderson
Ehhh. Would the spren survive? The spren would survive as long as the oaths were--
Questioner
Intact?
Brandon Sanderson
--the person didn't break the oaths. But you could theoretically steal the bond, break the oaths, and kill the spren. If you wanted to. Its a very convoluted to kill a spren, they are easier to kill than that, but yes. You could do that. That is a viable but twisted route that you can do. You would end up with a dead spren and a Shardblade, so there is that. But there are easier ways to accomplish that...
White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016)15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They also thought that if they passed the Elendel Supremacy bill that the outercities would obey them. Maybe we don't take them at their word?
And yet Steris manage to organise successful evacuation.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They are also vulnerable if a radiant cuts a single piece out of the track the train cannot move past that point.
Traintracks can be checked for damage regularly and replaced on spot.
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why would they burn their stuff? They're going to want it back after the war is over. And many people are attached to their homes and would be unwilling to move.
Because it's a policy? Army and police will be involved? They would fear the invading force?
15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Decay/Rotspren fabrials to spoil their food stores, then use Hunger/Coldspren fabrails to increase the army's need to eat, and use up firewood. Bury the fabrial in stone etc.
So Scadrials will be just watching Rosharians planting fabrials in storages and camps? That easy?
2 hours ago, therunner said:So they would need to set up power lines into CR, or continuously supply generators with fuel, to keep the bombs constantly ready.
And if they want multiple bombs that means setting up multiple supply lines.Yes, or move all supplies at once, they have some time for it, weeks. Doable.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Not teleporting to another system, using bondsmith-enhanced Elsecalling to move large amounts of troops to/from CR. Much simpler task.
And that is something very reasonable to assume, finally. Frustration wanted to teleport straight on Scadrial.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Invested items are more difficult to push, and active fabrials would be invested.
How much investiture is in single gem? Not much. Didn't Wax pushed invested metalminds/objects before TLM?
2 hours ago, therunner said:No, I am not giving Roshar 10 years specifically to learn about Scadrial.
I am mentioning that by TLM Roshar has had 10 years, and one of the leaders of the Radiants (Shallan) specifically decided to focus on fighting Ghostbloods and their leader.
And since Ghostbloods are Scadrian organization, that will inevitably lead her to learn about Scadrial.Yes, that's better and logical. Before I took it as Roshar having 10 years speciffically to resolve problems about Scadiral.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Why? One Windrunner can carry enough Stormlight to last several Radiants for hours, and there is a lot of Windrunners (being among the more numerous orders). Some would be free to fight.
Long, extended frontlines, lot's of Radiants. It might take a fair amount of them to do it, but also leave some for other tasks, fair enough.
2 hours ago, therunner said:How does coinshots and steel ferrings spiking Radiants turn all of Scadrial population into enemy in the eyes of Rosharans? I don't follow the logic.
It was about FUN and definitely NOT overcomplicated and real scenario of giving everyone spikes to spike Radiants. But if some people starts spiking Edgedancers that tries to help wounded Scadrials, than they might look at entire population of Scadrial as enemies, as they don't know where the blow would come from.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Organized to push on a thing, not to start fighting in a battle. Mildly different scenarios.
How about organizing them to train to fight first? That was whole point.
2 hours ago, therunner said:ecause currently they have no reason to? Since they heal or avoid arrows trivially, and their opponents typically use melee weapons.
Using a shield against foe with better ranged options is a no brainerStill that shield would be quickly shredded to pieces, as Kaladin's shield during battle on Tower.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Yeah, going after organization implies learning about organization.
Again, I am not giving Roshar every advantage possible, the most of an 'advantage' is them moving spren and stormlight off-world. The rest is just what they can already do.As we could see in TLM, Ghostbloods have many non Scadrial individuals. And learning about Ghostbloods doesn't mean learning everything about Scadrial as well, just more of how they operate, what are they doing, where are its agents, and to some extend technology involved - but I would guess more investiture related like Seons.
And we both agree on that assumpions, and extrapolation of Radiants skills.2 hours ago, therunner said:Again, how will Radiants not notice traps if they have spren for scouting?
Or can create their own pathways by tunneling under?At first they might not care, later they will checked, which I don't know now how to counter sprens. And if you don't know the answer than spike them.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Not king's personal gems, just large end expansive gems (emerald broams) of which King is the easiest source.
At that point Dalinar could not recharge spheres, and Kaladin needed a lot of charged spheres fast (within the hour) so this was the best source.So he took a lot of expensive spheres worth fortune, not the usuall amount. Was it described in RoW/OB how much usually Kaladin is having in his pockets to compere it?
2 hours ago, therunner said:Talented coinshot, but still just coinshot, well twinborn coinshot with F-Iron. Still does not make him bullet proof or give him superhuman reflexes.
And yet, they could not hit him anyway.That's something better than bulletproof or F-Gold - plot armor. But nooo, I love that scene, especially when Sazed sent him a flash of siege of Luthadel.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Sure, but there is a bondsmith bonded to remnants of a Shard, making him a bit more omnipresent.
Sooo full time skybeam?
2 hours ago, therunner said:What Kandra, the only one on Roshar is MeLaan, and she just got there. And how would the Kandra get the message back? They would have few weeks heads-up.
Ghostbloods are better option thanks to Seon, and they still exist on Roshar.
No one assumes Roshar is preparing for invasion for 10 years, only that they are not standing still for 10 years (as you seem to be assuming).MeLaan - by rowing back to Scadrial fast. So, yes weeks at best.
I don't assume they won't progress, I'm focusing more on regular people and what can they do on both sides as they would be vital for invasion on that scale. Radiants are more like a tanks.2 hours ago, therunner said:Except Dalinar doing things like Connecting Kaladin with spiritweb (most likely) of a dead person for a conversation? That is not impressive to you?
I was talking about a year in between books. But that was a big progress.
2 hours ago, therunner said:If you think the thread is over, no need to participate then, no?
And no need for the condescension, you assume Scadrial can build multiple nukes using technology they only learned about and hook them up as mines.
And the only supply Roshar needs is Stormlight, they have soulcasters (that is how they started Vengeance Pact), plus with how fertile Basin is they can also forage.Oh, the thread was over long time ago. I'm just here for the after party.
They have bombs, they moved them, they made big boom, they have rockets, used them, so just make bombs smaller, and put in rocket as intended? Is that really that big of an assumption to make?
And slaves, and some more food as each soulcaster has its limits, and some material, metalworks, woodworks, tools. There will be a lot of soulcasting (that will drain a lot of Stormlight) but still supplies will be needed from Roshar. And the further the army goes, the more streached will the supply lines became. And no, catching Scadrials as a slaves will only motivate more Scadrials to fight.
And there is nothing to forage if the earth is scorched. Moreover new "exotic" food will cause further illness, diarrhea etc. Not to mention how lower oxygen level will impact Rosharians, and that's a big one again. What would Rock say?2 hours ago, therunner said:Fair enough. I presume we can similarly assume that Malwish will not be cooperating with Basin, or supplying them? As they are now enemy faction with prior grievances.
Yes, at all time. It's like they're not exist at all for me. We don't know what they have, do they even have guns, radio, electricity etc? So no, they are not part of it. Didn't you see that?
Don't get me wrong, Radiants are powerful and most definitely will be hard to deal with. They're more powerful than anything Scadrial has. With many assumptions we are making (I even include not using H-T bombs to drag on conflict to compare what can be done, as at every stage a could just say they dorp H-T bomb and win) Roshar have fair chances of winning, but that's soly because of Radiants alone. Yet what was that saying again? A Shardbearer can't hold the ground? So it might as well happen, that even if Radiants win all battles, they will heve to withdraw anyway, as rest of the invasion forces will be nonexistent at that point. I'm focusing more of what regular people can do to help, to fight, and what tricks can be use to gain advantage, even for a short while. And yes, guerrilla war is the answer - Spanish people didn't know how to fight like that when Napoleon invaded Spain, and yet they quickly adapted and drain his reasorces, ultimately leading to his defeat. They switched from one big battlefield to thousend small ones, and won. That's my point, Rosharians Radiants are clearly superior and can do almost god-like stuff, but they can't be everywhere. The further the frontlines streaches, the more susceptible Rosharians will become. That might not win the war with current assumptions, but it will hurt very much.
Remember how Herdaz resisted Odium's invasion for a whole year? Without any supplies, any help, resources, big population, or even single Radiant? They've done that for a whole year, agains lightning striking Regals and Fused. And Fused have all the knowledge of how to fight.
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2 hours ago, therunner said:
2) Spheres covered in aluminum could hold charge.
2) Fourth Bridge is large enough to evacuate Hearthstone, which has several hundred people. So they can build ships to carry ~200-300 easily, cutting the number of required ships considerably.
3) How did Scadrial get electricity and bomb in CR? And why is Roshar approaching exactly at the location of the bomb if they are not dependent on the Perpendicularity for movement to and from CR?They don't have too much aluminum.
It is, but it's not in CR - I used ships from CR as the decision about invasion is rather "sudden" to be more equal.
Generators, perpendicularity. They can set up multiple small bombs in multiple locations, from direction of Roshar or close to the CR's ground.2 hours ago, therunner said:Or they use Elsecaller and Bonsmith to Transport them without need for perpendicularity and without need for lightshow.
That's a very big jump from little map light shows to portals to another star system to make in 10 years - possible yes, but I wouldn't say probable, as in a year he did not do much progres in boosting other orders surges.
2 hours ago, therunner said:How will Wax duralumin steel-push Radiants in plate?
Steel ferring spiking Dalinar would be a smart move, but why is the Roshar not setting up defenses? Like suppresor fabrials, or at the very least attractor fabrials, painrial mines etc. ?
They do have 10 years to learn about Scadrial, and Shallan is very motivated to learn about and work against Ghostbloods.He need to push people and boxes/stuff, which would fall on Radiants. And fabrials are literally metal wires - destroyed when Wax pushes, or not fully set up yet in that scenario.
so you giving now 10 years to Roshar SPECIFICALLY so they can learn all about Scadrial in preparation for invasion? How many more unfair advantages do you wanna give to Roshar just so it could won? It's getting pointless to discuss it when you constantly giving Roshar more and more just so they can be better prepared.2 hours ago, therunner said:Why are Windrunner unable to fight?
Marsh is seemingly using all of Atium to not die, but even then, he would be considerable danger and would require planning to deal with. But legends of him are spreading through CosmereIn that scenario they constantly transporting Stormlight to the frontlines for other Radiants to use. He's ready to die, and we do not hear any stories of him on Roshar, only Worldhoppers might be source of it. Roshar don't have any Cosmere wide organisation that would probide them direct informations about other systems, only Shallan in her "fight" against Ghostbloods, might know something, but it would be more of "they using metals" than "Marsh can do this and that", and that's another speculation black hole.
2 hours ago, therunner said:I don't want Roshar to just win, I merely think that their numbers advantage, their superior Invested Arts and experience in warfare along with some incredibly destructive Surges makes them a match if not a victor, if they can get off-world. Scadrial has a single advantage, and that is guns and related technology (and a couple of steel ferrings, those are deadly).
So assuming they can move around is sort of necessity for any sort of discussionThey have superior invested art, but they experience in warfare is useless as they face different doctrine and tactics unknown to them, Bringing sword to the gunfight is a bad idea, and Radiants won't be able to resolve all issues - as even in RoW regular soldiers do 90% of the fighting using regular supplies and logistics. You need this, and not constantly focusing on glowing man and you doing better job at this than Frustration. So yes, lets assume lots of things just to make that battle possible (which is not in any way), Radiants will be huge advantage, but my point is Scadrial can be pain in the backarmor. A real and big one, and with ingenuity, engagment of whole Basin population, and resources which they have (just see what Ranette is able to do, now give her resources of half of the planet) Scadrial can even successfully defend against Roshar, with huge losses, and giving Roshar all reasonable advantages that makes that fight possible, without jumping straight to "Radiants will deal with everything - here is WoB that it can be done". That includes that Roshar will face troubles, like logistic, supplies chains, and barely any intel at the beggining - not 10 years of preperation JUST for the invasion.
2 hours ago, therunner said:But originally you talked about giving Scadrians spikes to grant them Radiancy, for which you would have to spike the spren as well.
Yeah, I was wrong, but main point was to kill Radiants, and make all of Scadrial's population a potential enemy in eyes of Rosharians, which for orders like Windrunner or Egdedancers might be troublesome on moral ground. And who knows, they might even defect (don't jump into that hole).
2 hours ago, therunner said:For Honorspren, all of them were born/created after Recreance, so they could not have known how to apply Surges etc, for others there would have been similar issue, as those with experience would have been rendered deadeyed.
But clearly there are exceptions (i.e. Wyndle, Skybreaker spren).Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that one, so much to write. So most of they learn is from another Radiants, at least now. Skybreaker's sprens are not really teaching a lot, plus on Odium's side, sooo.
2 hours ago, therunner said:We don't know Ishar had good relations with both him and Nale. All we know is Nale and Kalak have good relatively close relation, and that Ishar once spoke to Nale to start his crusade against Radiants.
Oh no, nonono. Nale met with Ishar multiple times through SA! I counted - after WoR, go hunting in Egdedancer, went back to Ishar in OB - so they are buddies, and Nale could easily help his second buddy Kalak.
2 hours ago, therunner said:A panicking governor hoped all coinshoters would be able to push rocket out, based on what we have seen Coinshots can do, that feat is little beyond them.
Coinshots cannot push on metals that are too far from them, where too far is ~100 feet at most.Yes, they wouldn't succeed, it was to show that they can be organized in relatively short time, as they thought so.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Half-shards are shields, Kaladin used shields in WoK so Roshar knows about shields.
Yet no Windrunner uses them, and thier Sprenshield are not that usefull, when projectiles are coming from all directions.
2 hours ago, therunner said:They had 10 years to gather information and Shallan specifically wants to go after Ghostbloods. Plus they have easier access to CR travel thanks to their Invested Arts.
If we assume no one makes it anywhere, the whole thread is moot.But we are assuming they can get there, but I would rather assume with more conventional way, not instant teleport, as that assumes Radiants masters every surges and now rule galaxy, why not - SA 5-10 will be boring. And Shallan goes after Ghostbloods to prevent them from getting what they want, in which she probably succeeded, not to gather information about Scadrial 10 years in advance - if you wanna do this, than you giving Roshar every possible advandate, denying Scadrial even chance to fight, which is pointless.
2 hours ago, therunner said:When did this turn from fighting in a city to pre-prepared murder-holes and traps?
And why do you assume Radiants will just run in blind? They have spren that can easily check for traps for them.
That's how modern urban combat works - traps are set even by simple thugs in AoL. And after multiple times of getting killed like this, they will change tactic, that will be very effective at the beginning, maybe enough to slow them down, reduce their numbers, engage and distract them from other parts of battlefield where counteroffensive is incoming, or deter them fully from trying to capture Elendel.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Those trains that move tens of miles per hour only? And I doubt that their factory equipment is ready to be moved, you need to plan for that.
And no, Kaladin did that just with spheres on his person, no King's drop or Highstorm.And can move thousends of tons at once - those one. It can be made ready, that equipment was most likely transported to factory with trains in a first place.
Kaladin DID go with King's personal gems (very end of WoR before epilogue Dalinar sent Renarin to authorize giving Kaladin gems out of king's treasury for his way to home, not King's Drop the gem)2 hours ago, therunner said:Some apparently did. Which makes me question how well can Scadrians (or specifically the Set) shoot, if 200 people cannot hit a single Coinshot in a stairwell.
That was no Coinshot, that was Sword of Harmony! And he had explosives grenades launcher with shrapnels in a stairwell going spirally up - they were stupid trying to do it in the stairwell to be fair.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Drain you of Stormlight and provides the resource you need, it still does what it always does.
And reduces available Stormlight for Radiants to use.
2 hours ago, therunner said:How do they know invasion is coming?
Kandra will inform them, so that just few weeks of preparations (not 10 years like you are giving to Roshar...). Just the same time that would take Roshar to muster their forces, prepere supplies and go. Or Ghostbloods with Seons. I assume they just say let's attack Scadrial, and prepare, gather ships, man, resources and go, and when they start moving, that's when Scadrial will know, assuming travel through CR will take weeks/months in conventional way.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Neglecting alerter fabrials, which can be tuned to not trigger only for specific people?
Full of wires, sooo easily damageable.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Ah, yes, I forgot that Scadrians are as brutal to their own as Russia is.
Yes, because people would definitely want to look from windows of their homes when alien invasion forces came to their town. That make sense instead of moving away with food and reasorces, burning what's left behind.
2 hours ago, therunner said:We are not talking about mastery of Bondsmithing in general, just resolving one specific issue that others have already been researching, and some have already resolved.
And maybe boosting Elsecalling like how he is boosting Lightweaving.But it wan't some might have idea how, but did not try it yet. There might be more to it than they think. And if all boosted Lightweaving can do is little moving map than that's pretty sad. It most likely can do much more, but they don't know how - so jumping from little light shows to interstellar teleportation is too big of an leap to assume. They don't know it can be done - they might achieve moving bigger number of people between CR and PR where they standing but to another planet is too much in my opinion.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Did Jasnah spren suddenly break the bond following the revelation? No, so it is not deal breaker for all Inkspren.
Ivory already chose before to bond, just like all others chose not to bond.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Wow, explicit war crimes already, and on your own population no less.
I don't think we had using civilians as distraction in the last thread.
And what are the metal bars supposed to do? They would not look like souls in CR.I did not tell that they will need to fight, just gathering them will distract, and pretending to move or attack will do the job. Metal bars are for imitating weapons for anyone in CR. People can do a lot when their home is invaded by glowing aliens.
2 hours ago, therunner said:That is very different from what everyone thought happened, i.e. that Radiants needlessly and cruelly killed (worse then killed really) their bonded spren.
It is different, but that still doesn't bring back all deadeyes. They are still dead. And many will think it's even worst to bond now, as bonding and surges themselves might cause Roshar destruction. Bigger stakes.
2 hours ago, therunner said:Not sure how this counterfactuals are supposed to be useful or move the conversation along.
It's just to remind to make careful predictions about what we have now, what we know now, and how might it change in 10 years, but not to involve any groundbreaking events that may or may not happen in SA 5. So Dallinar is ok, he wanted to learn with Ishar how to remake Oathpact, he learn something from him (without speculating if he remade Oathpact or not) and learn more in 10 years extrapolating the year of learning he already got + some help he might get - not by saying "he's Bondsmith unchained, he can do anything, and here is 10 WoB showing that this things can be done, even if noone on Roshar knows that". So let's assume that events and plot related stuff did not change (as it can go in any direction), but characters's power and knowlague did, and technology progress in reasonable pace, using the data we have from previous books (which very much shows that Dalinar did not progress far, maybe bondsmithig is hard after all?).
2 hours ago, therunner said:So thread is over then, no conflict is possible.
Yes it is, glad you finally see it.
That's not the only way of getting to Scadrial. We can assume again, for your convenience as always, that it took them 1 Rosharian month form saying "let's invide Scadrial" to getting on Scadrial without talking HOW they get there? All supplies form Roshar would use convenional way of 100 ships (which is not much for army that big and month of travel).2 hours ago, therunner said:How do you know where to set up copper clouds prior to attack?
In that situations to which I responded they feel where, or where they approaching Rosharians positions. Or use coinshoters to destroy fabrials.
2 hours ago, therunner said:If he is from secret organization why would he be worried? It is not like they have photos of him, getting lost in city of 5 million would be easy. Especially when government proposed that plan?
The blame would fall on government not them.If only government worked like this...
They want to be sure that no police would try to find them for destroying those ships, and Marasi&Wax&Wayne are really good in finding secret organisations, so why risk it?2 hours ago, therunner said:Because Ishar is not his buddy, as explained above.
Ishar had one meeting with Nale.He had 2 just in short time before and after Edgedancer, and very probable sometime after discovering Parshendi. And they spend millenia fighting together and still are no buddies? If Kalak knew how, he would go to Ishar, because he want to get of Roshar really badly.
2 hours ago, therunner said:And information from Shin, they did have the blades for millenia.
Let's assume they did not wanted to cooperate, as right now they are enemy faction and that a crucial plot of SA 5 - as I mention before. They probably wouldn't want to help if Scadrial invaded Roshar as well, as seen with Odium invasion.
EDIT
Let's make bigger assuption, let's merge those planets together, with continets not just close to each other, but touching each other. So logistics, supply chains and "how they get there" is even less of an trouble. Who win then? I would say Radiants, not Roshar, as Scadrial will do damage with guns and technology, devastating regular troops, but over time Radiants, despite suffering heavy losses (let's face it, not every Radiant is Kaladin) will be victorious. Radiants are that strong.
But do you see what I've done here? I ignore extremely huge problems that Roshar must be dealing with during invasion of planet Scadrial - logistics, supplies, getting Stormlight, and travel time - just to give Roshar another advantage, so we stop argue about the same things over and over again with different words. But that problems CAN'T be ignored in real war, Dalinar did not ignore logistics when moving against Parshendi, he did not ignor psychology when fighting with Voidbringers on Narrak, Coalition did not ignore morale when moving troops to Thaylen, and they did not ignore regular footsoldiers and supply chains when they started offensive in Azir. It was all talked about on paper in the books, as that's THE most important part of the war - not Radiants, but all the stuff happening behind the lines.0 -
This is getting out of hand. The discussion Roshar vs Scadrial spawned several sub-discussions that I'm involved, so any time I'm talking about mistborns, fullborns, even bands, airships, Malwish, even Marsh was ignored - everything that Basin do not have access to is NOT a part of Roshar vs Scadiral. I'm not claiming that Scadiral has mistborn - it's just separate mini-discussion. I'm really trying to be reasonable with possibilities and assumptions that we can make, not have wishful thinking without connection to reality.
I'm assuming that Basin, due to 6 years of trade with Malwish and arresting Set, acquire around 100 grenades, mostly in hand of police. Reasonable, but due to trade it could be easily more.
So let's think about Roshar and what they could do - they decided to invade Scadrial. Kandra and Ghostbloods get that informations and inform Scadrial (Seons, or trip) and shuts down all travel from CR. But we need to assume that Roshar somehow figure out how to resolved issues with moving Sprens, Stormlight, Radiants, Dalinar out of Roshar and Radiants can use their powers on Scadrial - That is a big assumption, it's not gonna happened. But let's say it did. Now they use ships in CR, assuming they can use around 100 of them, each able to transport, let's make Roshar happy, whopping 100 people, assuming more - Radiant and it's sprens are counting as 1, supplies, horses, ship's crew, and non combatant poeple all took half of avialble space on each ship. That means whole fleet of 100 ships can transport 5000 combat units on Scadrial within few weeks/months. And when they get on Scadrial's CR they are greated with huge fireball uder their ships, that reduces them to dust - Scadrial prepared trap and set up H-T bombs in mists of CR ready to explode when Roshar's fleet arrived, insinarating all of Radiants, Dalinar, and vessels. Scadrial wins.
But let's assume, that Scadiral did not do it,. Roshar uses Harmony's perpendicularity to get to PR - and they are immediately welcomed by artillery and machine gun fire pinpointing them to perpendicularity until H-T bomb explodes in their face - Scadiral wins.
Assumig that did not happened, Roshar uses Dalinar to create perpendicularity and move to PR - he's making a huge skybeam visible from Elendel, telling everyone where they are. Scadrial sends responde forces to engage Rosharians that are very slowly moving from CR to PR one by one, with supplies, they begin to fight around skybeam, and H-T bomb falls from the sky, before all troops even are in PR - Scadrial wins again.
Do we have to go further? Let's go, assuming that it did not happened, Roshar captures perpendicularity on Scadrial and now sets up base for all incoming troops and supplies, engaging in combat with Scadrial's forces around. Wax shows up, duraluminum steel pushes everyone around, and amongs confusion steel ferring spikes Dalinar killing him instantly - Scadrial wins, as without Dalinar, they cannot sustain supplies of Stormlight on Scadrial with sparse, slow vessels from CR. Dalinar is single point failure, if he dies, Roshar loses.
And all of this was just with 5k Rosharian troops. Now all of them, hundreds of thousands are on Scadrial - and they immediately struggles for supplies, as Scadrial implements scorched earth policy - illneses, not deadly but weakening, passes through Rosharians, draining them out of Stormlight as they are being healed, Soulcasters making food, draining them out of Stormlight, and Dalinar, is forced to became permanent Skybeam to replenish Stormlight while all of Windrunners are now supllies of Stormlight to Radiants and cannot fight - if not H-T bomb, this time Death himself pays him a visit with Atium and spike - Scadrial wins.
Assuming that all of above did not happened, Roshar fights for first time with Scadrial - Roshar formes line hundreds of thousands strong , they move forward into entrenched positions, Radiants are moving with them, some are closing to trenches - artillery opens fire killing thousands Rosharians in closely packed formations, follows by machine gun fire killing thousands more - within minutes Rosharians runs away suffering catastrophical losses even if Radiants are mostly still standing - morale of army is gone as they faced new technology of mass destruction for the first time, noone wants to fight - Scadrial wins and drops H-T bomb on Roshar's camp killing Dalinar.
We can go on and on, but thuth is invasion cannot happen. And that above ignore so many other problems like terrain, as Basin is surrounded by mountains, and closer to Elendel they land, faster the response will be. And no glowing flying man will change that. Roshar would face so many single point failures that it is not reasonable speculations anymore but just wishfull thinking making them ignore all problems and just used Radiants to conquer Scadrial - even in SA the biggest talks are arond supplies and resources in war, not Radiants doing Radiant thing - as all campains involve massive amounts of regular soldiers, who almost recapture Sibling in first hours of Tower invasion. You seam to just ignore it and want Roshar to win, using knowlague you possessed from WoBs, that they don't even know that they don't know about it yet. You cannot just skip past problems that for now they can't resolved. If you're doing that, maybe skiped to the end and wish for Scadrial to just wave white flag and surrender before anything starts, as that's just equally probable as what you wishing for.
23 hours ago, therunner said:WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135/#e3347 for needing to spike both spren and Radiant, plus additional WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13432 the spren still has control over bond, and could break it. So you spike the bond out, and the spren breaks the bond that is now trapped in the Spike, and can rebond possibly even with the person you just spiked (if they are still alive).
You don's that's for stealing powers not bonds - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402-starsight-release-party/#e13432 - but you need only to kill them.
23 hours ago, therunner said:As far as I remember Ire (thank you for reminder of the name) had a pipe stretching through Cognitive which was driving their fortress.
I don't think they had any jars.
It is conceivable that it was unkeyed and we just did not know at the time.They had both pipe, and Dor in jars when they moved out of Fortress
23 hours ago, therunner said:Shortly before Teft dies he feels harmony between himself and the spren, and thinks to himself he is forgiven and he is close and he has hope. Then he summons Phendora enough to block Shardblade, something Kaladin could not do until swearing 4th Ideal. Chapter 104, pg. 1116.
So he sounds optimistic, not in denial like Kaladin, and can do something that Kaladin could not till swearing 4th. I would say I have strong argument on my hand that had Moash not kill Phendora, he would have sworn 4th Ideal even before Kaladin.I would say without fight with Moash it would take him a little longer, but he was close.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Not true, only those spren that crossed to PR and stayed unboded for a while have issues. Half the fun of Lift and Wyndle is that clearly Wyndle knows a lot about what Radiants can do, and how to use their powers, but Lift does not really care (plus has her own weirdness).
Fair enough on Stormfather.
Kalak has been working on ways to manipulate Connection so he can leave the system, so he can teach Dalinar something at the very least. You can study problem theoretically without being able to practice.
Ishar (and other Heralds) are rendered sane by contact with Spiritual realm (SR), so as long as someone opens perpendicularity near them, or Windrunner/Bondsmith swears ideal nearby, they will be temporarily sane (and in Ishar's case, cooperative).Wyndle is bad example as Lift has her whole spirit web messed up. I not sure if that first one is true, as all sprens we've seen did not knew about what can be done, in RoW most would knew as they learned from Radiants - still training new Radiants takes time.
If Kalak knew what to do with connection, he would already done it with help of Ishar, as he, Nale and Ishar has good relations. So Kalad don't figure it out yet. It wan't perpendicularity, it was Navani that made Ishar sane.
23 hours ago, therunner said:If anything bands and people are comparatively Invested, you cannot push on neither, the human soul is Investiture.
But still, regular soulcaster could soulcast full metalmind no need for Elsecaller, again https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681 here he is talking about Soulcasters, i.e. the people wielding soulcasters the device, not Radiants. And average soulcaster could soulcast full metalmind.Yes, but that's one metalmind, not 16 at the same time. It would require more skill, and touching it for regular soulcastor, doable, but harder.
23 hours ago, therunner said:No, all she did was delay until reinforcements arrived, not fight. Still stalling can be valid tactics, if you don't mind dying (which would pop the bubble) to a squire or Radiant, since they are better in all physical aspects + have Invested Arts.
Source on Metalborn being able to be quickly organized and trained as assassins and fighters? What about pacifists, people with injuries, physically unable people, etc.?That's fighting for me, and Marasi has unique skill. TLM, they were talking about using all coinshoters to pushed rocked out of Elendel - if they could organise them to do it, it can be done with small teams, yet longer to train for sure, hard, but with entire population engage doable with some (weak) results.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Ehm, shield? That is obvious thing to use Reverse lashing on, Kaladin even demonstrated that even before he became 2nd Oath Radiant.
Deadplate heals using Stormlight, Living that is debatable.
If the crystal breaks, they breath in Stormlight and are still good to go for a few minutes at least, and that assumes the explosion is near enough, and as said before targeting them is difficult.
How many shells would they need to "fill" the sky with shrapnel? Since they have dozens of AA guns at best?They't don't use shields. Living let's assume it as well uses Stormlight, as dead blade did not needed it, so it's a feature of plate. Most skilled Radiant inhales light when they want, so if crystal breaks and they don't notice it, they lose all light. Unless they will get injured and inhale instinctively. Lot's but Basin was preaparing for 6 year to conflict and even some wanted to strike first, so we can assume they have hundreds/low thousands as they are easy and fast to make when you have manufactories.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Plus constant firing would warp the barrels fast, necessitating repairs, not sustainable in the long run. They most likely don't even have thousand machine guns, what with army that is 10 000 strong, much less artillery which needs ~5-10 people to be operated and supported properly.
Regarding psychology, I would expect the side that actually fought in wars to have advantage over the side that never did, so Roshar would have advantage there.
No they, don't artillery can fire for days or weeks constantly, they are made for that. Hundreds machine guns do the job. Rosharians won't have advantage, as morale is the most important factor of the battle, and now they face unknown enemy deadlier than any Radiant or shardblade, able to kill thousands within one minute - their lines would collapse instantly. And we all know who conquered America.
23 hours ago, therunner said:No, 10 years ago there were 300-500 Radiants, and those numbers got there in a year and a half from zero. And you don't need to cover everything, you need to destroy command centers, weapon/ammunition stockpiles, and centers of resistance.
If Scadrians are throwing stick of dynamites in close quarters to try and kill Radiants they are killing themselves far more effectively, since they cannot heal, unlike Radiants. Not the best tactic, arguably quite bad one.You can give them 2000 Radiants, they still can't make it to Scadrial. And most of them are not 4th oath. They don't know anything about Scadrial, as they just got there, no intel, no language, no familiarity.
They can throw it form other baricaded room, use murder holes on ceiling, or wires, or traps. It's all about draining Radiants out of Stromlight - very effective tactics.
23 hours ago, therunner said:They don't. They might have theories on how to apply stuff, but considering how naively peaceful they were, I doubt even that. Why prepare for war when the entire humanity lives together in peace (from their perspective)?
Yet they still have army for 350 years, still make weapons for that army and guns etc. And just now they have 6 years of preparation for conflict with Malwish, some were pushing to strike first, outside cities were preparing for war - it's all there. Tactics are implemented, even if not used. That's how military works. They know how to fight with what they got, they train, they are not stupid - assuming they can't fight as they did not had war is just making them look stupid.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Except Scadrial is not at WW2 level, they are barely WW1 level.
Radiants can fly higher than AA guns can shoot, and for bombarding that is ok. And Kaladin on 3rd Oath flew width of continent (thousands of kilometers) on only spheres he could carry, so yeah, they have reach larger than the entire Elendel BasinThey have trains, all that's needed to move factory. And no, Kaladin either used storm or huge King's crystals for that travels. Not spheres.
23 hours ago, therunner said:They could have fired rockets from a ship, as they have been doing during tests. Yet they did not. Why if they could have? The range is still 40-60 miles apparently.
Ehhh no, it's they had too big bomb, as they hated Elendel and wanted all of it gone, not part of it, ano no rocket could fit that bombs. Rockets that they had, had to short range and only for smaller bombs, that would not be enough to destroy Elendel. All of it must be destroy, with all its people.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Too bad Rosharans can create their own perpendicularity, or use Elsecalling powered by a Bondsmith to transport massive numbers without need for Harmonies perpendicularity.
And if Scadrial has to resort to nuking their own territory, they are not doing particularly well.Yet they can't ship them to Scadiral's CR in such numbers, and there is only one Elsecaller who won't do much. Using H-T bomb for Scadrial means victory and that's all that matters.
23 hours ago, therunner said:I would wager side with millennia worth of experience knows tactics better
All that experience is gone, when face with different new weapons.
23 hours ago, therunner said:That is symmetric scenario, how would Scadrians react to Rosharan pathogens? Not sure how relevant of an argument it is.
Hoid is also foreigner, as is Zahel, Azure, that Terris woman, and yet they are not sources of immediate plagues, so it is not as bad as you are making it out to be.Sick for sure, yet they have moders medicine, so they would be greatly ok after some time. And using half-gods and Hoid, that all cannot get ill as an example is not gonna make it.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Exactly, they have comparative technology, only power source differs.
Also as long as Roshar puts their technology in aluminium boxesRoshar don't have that technology, they got some toys that are simmilar to it, not whole technology. They still can't use advanced metallurgy, and they have very little aluminum.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Why not? Replicating something, especially if you have dedicated team of scientist focused on technology development (which Roshar has) is not that difficult.
And soulcasting removes need for precise metalwork.
Small anti-matter bomb, and as long as you make it small enough, it is explosion as any other. It is just question of yield. Large enough stack of gunpowder would also blow up your head, and yet we put it in guns.It's not just about coping it, it's about understanding it, they don't have tools to understand how it's made, too many moving parts, too much precise metalwork. Soulcasting won't make it. They can't make guns. And they can't make microscoping nuclear bombs, stop putting nukes into your gun, that bad idea.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Wax would die quite fast in that ascent of tower at the end of TLM)
Didn't he faced 200 guys with aluminum? As it was said after, that the guys at the top, didn't have aluminum weapons as they were regular dudes, not army before.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Some of these (mining, processing) are of limited necessity for Roshar, especially with Soulcasting (and fabrials can mimic all surges so technological development will make soulcasting even more common).
Even then, for immediate war, type of society plays less of a role.All soulcasting does is draining your Stormlight when on Scadrial - and they have soulcast for iron/steel, not for sophisticated alloys. For industrialization society is important.
23 hours ago, therunner said:Also Pits of Eltania don't contain perpendicularity, the only descritpion of something which sounds like perpendicularity is in Southern Roughs. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Perpendicularity
I thought it was there, good to know.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Yes they can. Hoid has already done it.
Yes they can, see Hoid. Mraize says that it is a simple Connection issue, so any Bondsmith could make it work.
Hoid is Hoid, not Roshar, and you don't know if Design is with him on Scadrial. Mraize is Ghostbloods, not Roshar, you can't use Scadrial's organisatio and their resources, that sole purpose it to protect Scadrial, for Roshar advantage. Dalinar don't know that.
Spoilerand SP is far in the future, not an example.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:With Cohesion they can make perfect gems.
You know this, yet they don't and still did not do it - They can make some perfect gems, but not enough to support interplanetary invasion.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The only technology more advanced that Scadrial has is firearms.
Rosharan sanitation is better, their medicine is better, their transportation is better, they have FTL communication. When it comes to infrastructure Roshar is far ahead of Scadrial even when AoL takes place after SA 5.
Yes, great that Roshar can replicate that "better" transportation wherever they want it, rigth? For now chulls do all transportation. FTL is not needed on planet with radio. Medicine is advanced but not on level od industrial modern times. Not to mention sanitation with latrines when scadrial has sewers. Very advanced.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They don't have a registry of metalborn so they would have to rely exclusively on volunteers to get those powers, further reducing the pool of candidates. And training for assassination takes years.
With interplanetary invasion incoming, they would have to little trainers for that amont of volunteers that will volunteer. They will train them fast with basic as A-Steel/A-iron is the most time consuming. People already trained will be assassins, coverd by all of Roshar fancy toys with copper clouds.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Shardplate will absorb the impact
Yes, and drain them out of Stromlight, cracking - that's what it's all about
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:N. Scadrian guns can't even hit airships, much less Windrunners who can exit the atmosphere.
They have guns, they need to fire up, and made unpenetrable cloud of bullets and shrapnels and explosives. Deterrence.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:And how do they sneak in when a massive alerter fabrial tells the Rosharans when anyone not from their army enters their camp? WoK 432-433.
And there is a massive army of spren able to search out anyone at anytime.
Copper cloud, and pretending to be part of the camp. Or Wax duraluminum steel push, with steel ferring killing who needs to be killed.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:As of right now they have fabrials that can read emotions, in ten years I fully expect them to be able to regulate emotions as well
Not to the extend and scale of Allomancy. And doubt it would be that practical, as every emotion would require it's own pain-fabrial - and that takes a lot of space.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why on earth would they enter through Harmony's perpendicularity? They can just make a portal straight from Urithiru to the front lines.
No, that just wishful thinking. They can't do it now, they won't learn how to do it in 10 years.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:1. Why would they walk through the CR when they have portals?
2. Why can't they steal supplies?
They, don't. Scorched earth policy. You know how Russia dealt with Napoleon?
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The cold wasn't deadly, Kaladin remarks in RoW that it didn't deserve to be called a plague.
It would weaken them and that's good enough.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Using Raysium,(which the coalition does have, both Navani's dagger, and Shallan's)
yeah, just 2 small daggers with Raysium will definitely do a job, and help quickly made anti-light in mass production. Think rationally.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The metal is only a key, the power comes from Preservation the same way the surges come from the spren. Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation, so the Stormfather's Bondsmith can use their powers anywhere an allomancer can.
The Stormfather is a spren bound to Roshar, not Cosmere. And Honor is shattered. It won't be easy for Bondsmith to use it's power out of Roshar. Doable in long run, doubt it will happen it 10 years.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:I right now am ready to swear the first 4(and possibly 5 depending on which oath I take for my third) Skybreaker ideals. And I'm not that unusual. I could probably also do several in Truthwatcher, but without knowing exactly what those are I won't make any promises.
And spren can find the people who are ready for their ideals, like how Syl found Kaladin, and people will seek out the orders, just as the orders will seek out new members.
Good thing you're on Roshar ready to help and resolved all problems they faced. And many Sprens are finding new Radiants under Odium's controlled lands and are killed quite fast there.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why connect them to Scadrial when you can just remove the one to Roshar?
And when did Dalinar ever have to touch someone mid conversation to continue speaking?
That might work. Dalinar had to constantly renew connection to be able to speak, and after some time and meeting them again, he had to do it again. I don't remember how it was precisely described.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Ishar mastered Bondsmithing in his mortal lifetime. Ten years is easily enough.
Hahahaha - no. Jasnah had a lot of time, and still is not on 5th, and can't soulcast organic matter well jak bread/jam well. No mastery of Bondsmithing in 10 years is gonna happened.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You forget this is Roshar, Crem will settle to the bottom and become stone. And between shardplate, stormlight and Windrunners ability to alter pressure they will be fine. And why would they spend weeks down their, an hour at most.
HOUR??? Do you know how big the ocean is? They would have to WALK under the ocean! Storm, be realistic, not "radiants for the win". Crem turns to stone, because there is no more water, in the ocean there is a lot of water, it would take much longer to solidify - if at all.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Syl, Rua, Phrendorana, Notum, Seekir, and dozens of other honorspren all have different opinions and views on humans. They have similarities, but they are far from the same.
Yet they still the same, value honor and morality above all, Inksprens value logic and reason, and not getting killed and destroing Roshar above all. If before Maya's speech only one joined Radiants, now is too late for more.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:And Animal souls are small and dim compared to human ones. They would never work as a distraction.
But civilians would. With some metal bars. Done, distraction.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:It had notes on range, but not the complicated ballistics needed to make it work. That was all destroyed.
Scientist were most likely arrested, and it's easy to tell them - amnesty for technology, not to mention all other papers confiscated by police. They have it now.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:And I don't think the reaction would work in a vacuum ... This might just make a bunch of light without an explosion
It would. Fireball of plasma would be created in vacuum of space. And in small boxed vacuum, box itself would carried energy for time, and later fireball. It would work the same with or without little box of vacuum. Light itself would vaporised everyone in kilometers of radius, and in tens of kilometers put everything that can be even skin, on fire. Light alone is deadly. Explosion are more than just fiery booms like in the movies.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:As stated above spren are different. You cannot treat them as all the same. And the lightspren have no problem bonding, they just didn't want to bond humans because of their betrayal, but now that that's known to not be the case they will be willing to bond humans.
So humans are not responsible for genocide of 8 spiecies? They still are, reasons might change, but the result still remains the same. Willshaper's sprens will not bond humans, they say it, they giving chance back to Singers and they want to preserve their culture and people, far from war.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The war with fused ended ten years ago.
Let's also not forget that handheld grenades could be made, as even chip sized gems would be more powerful than the scadrian equivelent.
Wishful thinking. Fused might won. Todium might rule. Roshar might be second Ashlyn. You don't know that! And they can't make chip sized gems - Wishful thinking again.
19 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They have portals, why would they go through the CR at all?
Still no portal on Scadrial and it won't be there in 10 years. Wishful thinking.
14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Set up alter fabrials, which are set to ignore the Rosharan forces, which is shown to be possible(WoK 432). If anyone unrecognized is approaching the device will blink while simultaneously acting as a painrail on the invader. Anyone attempting to invade will be found and incapacitated.
To drain the morale of the Scadrain forces fabrials set to augment fear, anger, agony, and anxiety, along with plague will be flown into population centers at night, and stonewards will bury them inside buildings. Even with seekers able to sense them finding and removing them would be both difficult and time consuming, not to mention the fact that it wouldn't stop the devices effects while it's in use.
Copper clouds... They will run out of light quickly.
8 hours ago, therunner said:Also, Kelsier still cannot leave Scadrial (else he could have intervened on Roshar branch), so Ghostbloods don't have the means to enable spren to leave system. Hence someone else has to do it.
Or NONE did it, and in 10 years it will be still impossible.
4 hours ago, therunner said:Presuming them to be Skybreakers (or enlightened version) is not a stretch.
Or just some guys with dynamite from secret organisation that don't want to be jailed after blowing up bunch of ships
QuoteKalak lacks the ability to manipulate Connection himself, as he is not Bondsmith nor in possession of Bondsmith Honorblade. That does not preclude him from having theoretical knowledge that could be quickly tested by a Bondsmith, and modified if need be.
So why he did not test it with his buddy Ishar?
QuoteSo Bondmisths unchained can do pretty much anything regarding Connection, and more
But they need to know and learn it, and that takes time.
0 -
And here we go again - is there a limit on this forum for how big posts can get? We might hit it soon
12 hours ago, therunner said:You cannot just hit someone anywhere, you need to be precise about it (nearly all Hemalurgy done in Era 1 was guided by Ruin). So Coinshots won't help you there. You also need Intent, know what you are doing and truly mean it (see TLM).
To steal bond you would also need to spike the spren, and know the correct bind points on spren (where even bind points on people are not really known), which Scadrials definitely don't know.
So yeah, that would not work as easily as you think.9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Actually spren can break the bond if it's stolen.
I said it's foolproof! Stop making it look foolish! Even if most coinshoters won't hit where it needs to be, some will and that means dead Radiant, even if spren breaks the bond, this will slowly reduce number of Radiants on Scadrial - and they cannot be that quickly reinforced, not every order has squires and new Radiants must be trained for months. And most important figures will be aready dead - they are irreplaceable. All necessary informations can bu published in newspapers for public, and Steris can organise "Hemalurgy with Death - lessons for beginners". Do you have to spike the spren to steal the bond? Source? I think you only need to spike the person - like Ishar was doing with Dalinar. And when you fight not with just whole army of the planet, but whole population of it, then it's undefeatable - like Spain by Napoleon, but with spikes. See? Foolproof!
12 hours ago, therunner said:In SH they needed a pipe to move Dor there, and it was not unkeyed, so less refined Investiture, and need to have "physical" connection to Cognitive over Sel.
Ire had jars with Dor when they moved to capture Preservation. Was that unkeyed?
12 hours ago, therunner said:That is why I was specifying that Teft would have easier time with 4th ideal not that he had easy time in general. See the sentence you did not quote in your post
Would he? Just because he was close, doesn't mean he would had it easier - Kaladin was close since OB. For Teft it might be something like "I will accept my past mistakes" or something acknowledging that he can make mistakes. He might knew the words, but didn't want to tell them - just like Kaladin in OB. That is not so much easier.
12 hours ago, therunner said:Sibling seems to be more knowledgeable, just having some ethical issues relating to fabrials. Stormfather seems to be increasingly communicative, and more aware the longer and deeper his bond with Dalinar his.
Kalak explicitly wants to share his knowledge with Shallan, or at least some of it.
Ishar would like to, as long as he has his moment of sanity.As for now, every spren that bonded seams to be unaware of what the knight can do, until they do it. Just because Stormfather talks more, doesn't mean he will teach Dalinar something that he is not aware of. Kalak don't know anything about Bondsmiths, Ishar want to redo Oahtpact to be free of it. Both insane and Ishar might not return to his cooperative state ever again.
13 hours ago, therunner said:It would not be more categorically more difficult, from Investiture stand point it is still just full metalmind, just larger.
Elsecallers soulcast people, those are kinda more difficult (what with their own cognitive aspect).
How would the medalion Fullborn do that if the Elsecaller is in Cognitive? And since Bands are apparently drained at the moment, where is the medallion Fullborn coming from?People are less invested than bands, she does not soulcast fused however. For Jasnah it might be hard to do it, but for regular soulcasters it will be almost impossible. But no idea how he would act against someone in CR - there might be a way, emotional allomancy? Bands might be drained, or that's the fake one, suppressed - they might get refilled, and with whole Scadrial population, that will be done quickly (like 20 people at once filling it).
13 hours ago, therunner said:Marasi was also a fan of Wax and wanted to become constable. Plus setting up a bubble and hoping target does not notice is not really "masterful", mastery would be adjusting size of bubble, shape or compression factor.
Yes in era 1 there were A-pewter and A-iron/steel teams, in Era 2 we have seen only gangs with individual metalborn, or teams of two at most. Hardly coordinated units.
Marasi explictly says in TLM that she wants Elendel constables to form anti-allomancy team, but they did not do it yet (and speculates that the chief considers her + Wayne + Wax to be that team). So we actually do know that no such team exists, neither in Elendel, nor in other cities (as they are far smaller, and have far fewer metalborn as result).
Most metalborn would be less skilled (in combat) then squires, squires at least train in combat, most metalborn in Era 2 have no reason to as they typically have regular civilan jobs (i.e. coinshot messengers, soothing parlors, etc.)That be usefull but what she did was enough to fight, and that's what most people needs. Metalborn teams can be quickly organised and trained as assassins and fighters with already experianced trainers like Wax and there is probably a lot of information on that left by Sazed. Squires needs to learn how to swordfight (which can take years of intense training) and use surges - Metalborn needs to learn how to shoot - many already do it. That's why I would say they equal.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Reverse lashing would would help diminish this tactic (unless aluminum shrapnel).
For those with Shardplate this does not do much.
And still while you do not need to hit them, you still need to hit near them (as in within few meters), and Windrunners are more maneuverable then modern jets, faster than anything Scadrians encountered (barring steelrunners, but those don't fly and are exceedingly rare) and don't move like most things do (i.e. they move with constant acceleration).
Scadrian AA (whatever they have) is designed to shoot slow moving (tens of miles per hour) large ships, not people sized objects flying hundreds of miles per hour.And to what you would use that reverse lashing in the air, clouds? Shardplates will take damage and heal using Stormlight - that's the whole point of it. Explosion near the Radiants is enough for pressure wave to break the crystals, and explosions will sent shrapnels with supersonic speed in all directions - they will remain threat for a long time (like the plane that flies through it and take damage - some will get hit in vital place and they will be taken down). Scadrian AA might already use that ammunition type, if not that's basically the only change they need, they have Wax grenades. So no problem as they need to just fill the skies with shrapnels and no windrunner will go through it.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Sure, but Rosharan strategist who would send regular Rosharans first is dumb. If you have supersoldiers, you use those first to soften enemy as much as possible, and then follow up with regular units. Windrunners who can drop anywhere in the city (drop from sky in few seconds, take out machine gun nest, and zip out), Stonewards creating tunnels to move units around, Dustbringers taking down buildings, Elsecaller (or Lightweaver) soulcasting ammunition (or artillery) away.
The spheres are ~1 cm in radius, do you know how lucky the shots would have to be to be destroying them systematically? And the light from the broken spheres could still be quickly inhaled (not ideal solution, but not bad when you are getting shot at).
And why would Radiants not maneuver well in close quarters? I see no reason for that, and in fact some orders (with Abrasion, Gravitation) would have better ability to maneuver then regular person.If they had them, there is too few Radiants to be everywhere. And even in OB in Kholinar battle, despite having Shardbeares, they send in regular soldiers to clear the corridor. There are at best 300-500 Radiants right know, most are from 2 orders. You can double it after 10 years, and that's still not that much. They wont cover everything. The only thing needed to break the spheres is explosion near it so pressure wave destroys it. And the glass can be break far away from explosion - like at the very end of TLM glass was being broken on the other side of the city. Radiants wouldn't maneuver well in close quarters WITH dynamite sticks thrown at them, as there is nothing to get cover behind, nowhere to excape, and small rooms would amplify the explosion - can the Radiant even survive explosion once? It would very quickly drain them out of Stormlight - and add to it leachers grenades that can be made in big numbers in advance... That's a death trap in every room waiting for them. Not to mention litteral traps that can be easily set as seen in AoL - Rosharians have no idea how to fight in modern urban era, on Roshar taking city walls means taking city, they don't fight door to door. Elendel don't have walls. That would be disastrous for Roshar and drain them of every reasourse they have - then Scadial does counteroffensive pushing them back and splittingthier forces and you have Stalingrad in Elendel. Do I need to remind you how it ended for 6th army?
13 hours ago, therunner said:Nope, with electrum you only see the future, no instinctive reactions or improved cognition, that is only atium. To use Electrum effectively would take a lot of training (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e9197), and it would still be much worse than atium.
And nope, Kelsier wins only by killing Kaladin off battlefield, Kaladin kills Vin, and Vin is better then Kelsier. And mind you that is Mistborn with Electrum, they will still die against Windrunner of 3rd Oath. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432
Electrum misting will die a couple of second later, but they will still die fast against Radiant of most (not all orders).
Those dudes were trained soldiers who fought in campaigns, and burned through millennium worth of Atium in few hours, not sustainable tactics."but it could be very effective." - that's enough for electrum. I don't need them to be like in HoA, They need to only distract (not fight 1on1) Radiants and avoid thier attacks long enough for reinforcements to come - the very thing Kaladin unintentionally do in OB when fighting Amaram. In fight Mistborn might die, but in sneaking into the camp to kill/spike Bondsmiths and Elsecallers or others - he wins. That's the war. Not every battle is on the battlefield and involve swinging swords at each other, and if you can make a difference you take that opportunity. And to escape such Mistborn/Banduser might push emotional allomancy with duralluminum to paralyzed everyone - and then he disappears into the mists (both CR/PR).
13 hours ago, therunner said:The eyeslits that are there can be closed, both on living and deadplate. Adolin's plate closes its eyeslits during battle at the end of WoR, and it shields him from the lighting of Stormforms.
How many were skilled enough to hit opening around 1 cm large on a moving target from several meters away (while being rushed by the person no less)?
Artillery can still only hit one spot at a time (or how many you guns), not the entire kilometers of field. Plenty of space to move fast, and Shardplate is fast, much less some Radiants.Was that his eyeslits or just the part of helmet that covers his face, that is movable? Even Shardplate illustrations from the books are showing eyeslits. And again Kaladin kill. Not many, but shrapnels, random bullets and ricochets will pose a danger and might hit eyslits when there is lot's of them. That's the point. For living plate intense, focused gunfire do the job. One piece of artillery can hit one spot at a time, hundreds or thousands will cover entire kilometers of field in constand bombardment that nobody can go through. Pressure waves alone from each explosions alone will push any Radiant onto the ground, and there he will slowly get draind off his Stormlight and killed. Not to mention psychological effect of that bombardment - just look how it affected soldiers in trenches in WW1 - Radiants despite glowing armor are still people and can be affected the same way as any others. Psychology in war is a huge factor - Scadrial have advantage here.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Scadrial has no tactics, at least North that is (no info on Malwish). They did not fight any conflict in over 3 centuries. Elendel's "army" has 10000 members, and that is including what is effectively customs and coast guard! Even if the the rest of Basin matches them, that is just 20 000 people. With those numbers they would struggle to hold even just surroundings of Elendel.
They have the guns, but no experience in how to use them tactically like that. They will have some naive understanding, but no actual expertise much less understanding on how to leverage on par with WW1 strategists. The biggest things they fight are gangs with tens of members at best, not battles with tens of thousands of soldiers.
And yes Radiants cannot hold ground, but they can destroy factories and heavy equipment (Shardblades are kinda custom made for that purpose, see Thunderclasts). And once that is destroyed, Scadrial would have big issues because rebuilding takes time.Just because Scadial was not at war for past 350 years, doesn't mean they don't have any strategy, tactics, training and generals thinking about usage of modern weapons on modern battlefield. They have generals with medals so there is something going on in that military. And Roshar will make it easy for them, as they bring swords into the gunfight. They had training with guns and artillery, they quickly adopted and create AA in response to Malwish threat - they've been militarizing themselves for past 6 years. They know how to wage a war even if they did not been at war.
Rebuilding factories can be done "relatively" quickly as it was offten done in WW2, but Radiants cannot do such operation on scale of carpet bombing, and factories can be easily guarded by AA and artillery, hidden far away from frontlines, too deep for Radiants to reach them - or they can be relocated with ease. Factories are not a problem, as Scadrial industrialization is huge, few Radiants won't do any difference. And even on Roshar they know how to catch Radiants/Shardplates with ropes and nets - they can easily do the same on Scadrial with any Radiant.
13 hours ago, therunner said:Fair enough. Good to know.
Replicating it can be done, but you are also proposing they improve upon it by miniaturizing it. If they could have made a few smaller bombs why did they not? Why go with suicide attack if they could have simply fired 3-4 smaller rockets?
It is implied Navani hears the rhythms because humans have become part of Roshar (thought not as adapted as Singers). Also there is conveniently a group of Singers that defected from Odium, and Singer in the Coalition nicknamed "Bridger of Minds", that should help.Because Set had only one chance, and Elendel control and checked any boxes moved into the city so they could not transport it. Rockets had too short range to deliver it to Elendel, and they needed to destroy whole city, so fewer bombs would not make it if detonated in the same place. The more bombs they wanted to use, the more problems they would face.
Yes, people can be teach that, but it would take them some time. So doable, but not on large scale. And the Singers on Shattered Plains want to get away from war, not jump straight into interplanetary war. So no "helpers", no Willshapers. In defense they would help, not on offense. It's kind of like first coalition meeting in OB - Let's attack Shinovar - but in Spaaaace
14 hours ago, therunner said:That entirely depends on how much Trellium was in the bomb Wayne stopped. It could have been much more than what is bunch of spikes, or it could not have.
Either way, there is a hard cap on how many trellium-harmonium bombs they can deploy, and once that is exhausted (or stolen or soulcasted away) they are done.That's right, that's what I've been talking all along. Few bombs each of thermonuclear scale however will be enough to wipe Roshar out of Scadrial alone, especially if aimed at ONLY entry point, Harmony's perpendicularity. It might even destroy perpendicularity. That's enough to stop any invasion and kill most of Radiants.
How can you soulcast Harmonium? Also why would they try soulcasting bombs as they don't even recognize them and know what's that for - they need to know what it is to take actions, and Scadiral has huge advantage, as everything that Roshar would met will be unknown for them. Another big key factor.
14 hours ago, therunner said:Regular tech and weapons - yes. Tactics - no, they don't really have any not for conlict at scale. Logistics - soulcasters are far superior for supplying army.
Plus Roshar has additional 10 years for Fabrial development, and already in RoW they already have FTL communication (span reeds), flight (Bridge 4 + glove Kaladin uses), tasers/numbing agents (painrials), artificial light and heat (heating and lighting fabrials) plus others more esoteric (those fabrials that draw in given compounds).They have tactics, as explained before. Not used, but they have. Far superior to Rosharian tactics, so even if not perfected it would be like walk in the park. Soulcasters need Stormlight, which must be transported from Roshar - if that can be even done in 10 years, as right now it's impossible. Guess what, Roshar in no way has any logistic capabilities for supporting large scale invasion of another planet from CR. Their supply and reinforcement chain will be slow, long, sparse, with little cargo space, stretched so much that it won't be sustainable. It would take weeks/months to transport single cargo vessel with most of Stormlight in crystals disappearing and giving little supllies to Army of millions starving for food,waiting for weapons, armors, ammunitions and reinforcements. Just crazy and impossible. And they cannot take any supplies from Scadrial land.
In all of that discussion we didn't even talk about foreign diseases that would more than decimated all of Roshar forces on Scadrial - simple cold was deadly for Purelakers, on Scadrial all Stormlight would be draind for healing just fraction of invasion force from deadly local illnesses - and it won't even treat whole army. You gonna have situation like Napoleon in Russia combined with Native Americans first contact with Europeans. Scadrial need to just couth in direction of Roshar and it's over.
All of that Rosharian tech is already on Scadrial - radios, pomps, airships, grenades, heaters etc - all fueled by electricity not Stormlight. One leacher grenade on Rosharian airship and it's going down. Rosharian airship is one time thing - as it takes thousands of crystals, hundreds of people and two separate locations to make even ONE flight. Scadrial ships can get airborn with ease - even if Elendel have only few of them.
14 hours ago, therunner said:But Roshar has soulcasting which allows them to make simple casts from e.g. wood, stone or plaster and then change that into perfect metal of the same shape.
They don't need advanced refining techniques, because they could make it wholesale if need be.
Sure in much smaller numbers then if they had those techniquest and set up factories, but they could do it and fast.
Gunpowder would be bigger issue for them, but anti-light x light reaction could supply that, or they could try and steal some and learn to soulcast it as well (more complicated things can be soulcast, but it takes quite a lot of skills).
Or seeing the weapons they could try and replicate the effect (throw small pieces of metal at a high velocity) with Fabrials.
They have already attractor fabrials, so repulsor fabrial with additional Duralumin cage for stronger effect and aluminum housing to restrict the vector of effect could do the trick, I think.
Roshar does not need to catch up, they would want or need to replicate the effects using their own technology and expertise.Let's admitt it, Roshar won't make firearms, nor copy it in that scenario. They are far to complicated, require far to many small moving parts, precise metalworking and gunpowder. Not gonna happened. And putting small nuclear bombs in your gun is THE wors idea I've ever heard of - it's gonna blown off your gun, your hand, your head, your body, and everyone in 100 meter radius. It would be hard for Roshar to make even gun-like-slingshots in active invasion on other planet, when your supplies for whole army comes in one ship every week. Not to mention large scale production.
14 hours ago, therunner said:Again, Scadrial does not yet know how to produce aluminum through electrolysis. So while they can produce some amounts, they are not on the industrial scale.
And we know that the entire Era 2 is within the SA5 to SA6 gap, which is currently intended to be about 10 years, so not sure what are you talking about the timeline.Scadrial already have a lot of aluminum, that's enough for sticks, bullets and boxes (droped from skies on Elsecaller - who likes to put boxes on Bands? Uno reverse card!
). And didn't TLA endend with epilogue 2 years after Wayne death? That's a long time to progress, Like Roshar have.
14 hours ago, therunner said:But Roshar is not 8 centuries behind, they are proceeding along different branch of 'tech tree' (thought that is gross oversimplification).
They have FTL communications, airships, gloves that can simulate jetpack (in a limited fashion), aoe tasers (painrials), numbind agents (painrials), telekinetic devices (attractors repelers), artifical heating and light (heat-rieals and spheres on their own though some fabrial could be made). They have basics of germ theory and vaccination. They are formulating basics of quantum theory (allowed through observations of spren).
They are using different basis for their technology, but they are not that far behind.It's not about switching swords for guns, it's about changing every aspect of society. Industry, government, education, agriculture, mining, transport, processing etc list goes on. Roshar is very much hundreds years behind Scadrial, with few fancy toys. Right now they cannot industrialize on large scale.
Wow, therunner, I'm done with you after storm knows how long. So good to finally talk about tactics, strategy and logistic not flying men again.
11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Preservation serves the same role, it's just everywhere. Just like how the Stormfather is everywhere.
Not really, Preservation is only needed on the very first moment of becoming metalborn, then they can use it wherever they want as it not Scadiral's metal that are important, it's just any metal. Radiant's are strictly bound to Stormlight, which is strictly bound to Roshar.
11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:I literally showed you the WoB you are mentioning, and it says the only way Kelsier wins is by assassination. If Kaladin can fight Kelsier loses.
Yes, that's fair, but as I answer therunner - not every battle is fight on the battlefield. Killing someone in his sleep is as victorious as in the middle of fight. More details somwhere above, after short scroling - I hope it's short.
11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:It's not illogical, Szeth's spren said that the fifth oath supercedes the third, which is just a crutch for the knight until they move on.
I doubt there would be more than few 5th ideal Radiants of any order per generation. It's just very hard to reach it. So it's not like they don't want to reach 5th ideal, it's hard for them to get prepared for next ideal, as it's means new understanding of law and how to enforced it. And that's Nale's thing to, following the law, if someone is ready for next ideal, he won't stop them from reaching it.
11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:There are tens to hundreds of millions of people on Roshar, even if it was 1 in a thousand there would be thousands of potential candidates.
So optimistic. Getting rid of your demons is so easy? We now have therapists, and we all now how mental care looks on Roshar. So no, Hoid might be the one, but he had millennia to get there. Just because Brandon said it is possible it deosn't mean it's gonna happen and be as common as chull. Not to mention sprens must first find that person, and that might be troublesome.
11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why would it be harder than speaking other languages, or connecting Kaladin to Tien, a man Dalinar has never known or heard about?
Dalinar had to constantly reconnect and touch Azir's people to keep the bond to their language. Dalinar is strongly connected to Kaladin, and Kaladin to Dalinar and Stromfather, and it was happening during storm - I doubt he could make the same thing with someone else, that he doesn't. Touching is a big thing for connection manipulation, even Ishar is doing it - it might be hard for Dalinar to connect spren with Scadrial if it means touching Scadrial in some way. He's gonna touch spren and then walk for weeks with thread in his hand? That's gonna look funny for sure.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:They never had unchained Bondsmiths.
That's like a child, and knows nothing? Not really helpful, even if with little training on how to remade Oathpact, not on waging interplanetary wars from CR.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The stone will guide people using Cohesion. See Venli finding Lift's prison. All they need to do is get to the bottom, and have the stone guide them.
But the bottom of the ocean is not made of stone, but layers of sediment, and lifeforms. So no. That's not gonna work - and again, if that was so easy than fused would already recover it. Not to mention having Stormlight for weeks of suffocation and being crushed by pressure - nope. Be realistic.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:That's like saying if you asked two Americans about something and they gave you the same answer that every American thinks that.
Except Americans are not like sprens - everlasting, almost unchanging spirits, characterized with unique ideas for each species. So you can tell all about whole species just from word and behaviour of one specimen - because they are sprens.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:1. Who is forcing people to stand near windows?
2. It's not that hard to compare distance. Look at where the souls are in the CR and compare them to the PR location.
1. Themselves, sense of duty for their planet and nation. Or a man with gun among them, or in basement, or bomb that would explode when they move. But more likely the first option.
2. CR doesn't scale as PR. And just concetration of souls can be faulty - you are gonna look at that huge incoming concetration of souls from the north, and you missed few people sneaking on you from south - it turns out that no people were coming from north, but weird, squishy, four-legged and hairy creatures that goes "beee" (sheeps) - but your gonna be dead with aluminum spike through your heart, and decapitated.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:1. Why would they use coal, stormlight is much more efficient.
2. That's Nalthis he was talking about, he said Roshar might have some, but I doubt it has the conditions for coal, too much crem.
Stormlight can be suck out, stormlight can be more important on frontlines, even more, when your logistic supply lines have so little ships comming from roshar after weeks of travel. Coal is fuel of industry. It was said, that Roshar is too young to have fossils, and coal is just that, plant fossils. Oil is the same. So no coal/oil on Roshar. And if Rosharians wants to have industry on conquered parts of Scadiral it would be even harder for them to fuel it. And the coal is needed for metalworks and big furnaces to fuel industry - that's what I meant.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:That still doesn't solve the fact that there are so few leechers.
And while possible that some seekers could find them, they would be killed as the Lightweaver fled, so that number will quickly dwindle.
Leaching grenades. And the seekers won't be running towards Radiants screeming "I've found one" but staying behind and telling (radio are a thing) others what they have felt - Radiants might be fully unaware that seekers even exists.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Supplies might get counted in whatever they do to drop the ship's weight.
Might, or that's might be the max weight that ship can carry normally. As the bagpacks in BoM on little ship were just place there.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:He didn't find the bomb with it, most of the notes were destroyed, he found the rocket because he spotted the ship from the top of the Shaw.
He literally figured it out that rocket will be on Shaw, that was looking like construction side from outside (pointed out in the books), because notes had informations about rockets and range - so he figure it out that launching it from higher position would result in bigger range. He did not see it, he couldn't.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:It doesn't matter how big you make the bomb, or when. At some point you HAVE to take it out of oil and expose it to air. And there will be some water vapor in that air. If you make it on Scadrial then you have to have the generator running for a long time, and you risk the bomb detonating the longer you leave it like that. If you take it out of the oil on Roshar it will probably detonate as soon as it leaves the oil.
You just don't understand, you don't have to! First you do that, in pressure chamber in the vacuum, or with dry air conditions and place everything where it should be placed and then you close the box. That's it. It is sealed off and ready to make boom. No exposure to air is required to make it explode. Just box. Sealed off. And then you press the button, and you've become death, the destroyer of the worlds.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:1. Any Elsecaller or Willshaper could do it.
2. Anti-stormlight can't kill fused, and you can make as much as you want why would you ration it?
There is and will be ONE Elsecaller, and Willshapers don't want to be close to any war, especially interplanetary one, as they just want to sing in peace.
As they don't have big manufacturing power, they do what's needed the most - anti-voidlight - and use it to kill Fused and Voidsprens, they don't play with big explosives, that DON'T kill Fused and Voidsprens. As I said, Roshar's explosive capabilities are small, simmilar to Scadrial's, but with delicate vessels, hand delivery, and hand, slow ignition - not ideal.
12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:It's a wavelength, with measurable effects it would be easy to reproduce, especially since it's already a known(if old) part of music theory.
It is a wavelength, yet making it is not just following the wavelength. They need to precisely hear what they doing, and any mistake will slow them down, or forced to make it again. Any impurities in plate will make it not repeatable. My point is, it's gonna take humans some time to copy that, and manufactoring anti-light will be slow and in small quantities.
Uff, another one bites the dust. That's a long reply.
Don't forget that Roshar's high command is composed mostly of men that can't read. When invading foreign planet, fulled with things that you never seen before, weapons, surges and tactics alien to anyone on Roshar the ability to express himself in clear manner, and to give written commands understood by everyone might be quite usefull.
3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:You bring up some really good points I still think roshar wins a defense war long term because Dalinar but not with Pryic level losses. Between guns metal born and harmony Scadrial we do a lot of damage.
Thanks, I'm trying. However my opinion is that no offworld invasion from CR can be successful for any side, as there is only one way in, no logistics in place, no supplies, no vessels, basically no anything that would support invasion on that scale, that far away, through alien land in CR - somewhere in previous posts I talk about that. But let's go with "what if somehow they made it into PR".
1 hour ago, Ati16 said:Roshar wouldn't do well in an invasion against scadrial. Radiants can't get offworld without breaking their bond and shardbearers can't hold ground. If Scadrial decides to use hemalurgy they can do some real powerful stuff like creating crashers like wax which would make rosharan heavy infantry pretty useless. Also Scadrial has only one prependicularity, which is closely guarded by southern scadrians and even if roshar could get elsecallers offworld their stormlight probably wouldn't last until they get there. Additionally scadrial has much more advanced technology than roshar and I doubt that even Roshar's military experience would do well against firearms.
That's the biggest problems with Roshar inviding Scadrial. And Scadrial's perpendicularity is located not in the South, but North (?), in Pits of Eltania guarded by Koloss (one of Jak's adventure), which is even worst.
Done for, not, it's taking me longer and longer to reply. But that's fun.
0 -
Oh boy, here we go again, writing a long boy
19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Honor is just as omnipresent as Preservation is, if the Stormfather's Bondsmith can't surgebind anywhere neither can allomancers. But both can.
That's not how allomancy work, there is a difference between allomancy and surges - Radiants can't do anything without their sprens, Bondsmiths might (or not, we don't know) works the same.
21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Only by killing Kaladin in his sleep. If Kaladin could fight he would wipe the floor with Kelsier
Kaladin could beat Vin, how on earth would Kelsier win?
Ask Brandon, not me, he decided that Kelsier would win, so we must go with it. Kelsier is goon in fighting against superior opponent (inquisitor) and surviving. It's his main thing.
23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Hoid does it, why would he not tell Jasnah?
I'm gonna give you a RAFO card. We don't know what he does, why he does that and what he would tell Jasnah. After all, he would watch Roshar burn if it means getting what he wants
25 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:He doesn't they do. The spren say that the fifth ideal means no longer following the third, which most swear to Nale. The Skybreakers love and respect Nale, and they don't need to progress, so why leave him?
That just wrong. Did Kaladin's 2nd oath no longer mattered when he sworn 3rd? It is still valid to some extend. They don't work like that, they want to progress as that would made them more usefull. Stop making illogical claims, just to support your arguments.
27 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:That is strictly not true, there are people willing to say all five ideals on the spot, along with spren who will actively seek them out.
"someone who's emotionally ready to swear all five on the spot?" That doesn't mean they don't struggle in the past and overcome it already... But that would be rare if it ever happened.
30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Promises and payoff. I've listened to Brandon's lectures and I know how writing works, if the duel is foiled it undoes everything the coalition has worked for for three books. That won't happen. The duel will take place despite Taravangian's best attempts.
Book 5 happens before AoL, if you refuse to give Roshar anything past RoW we can set Scadrial back to before AoL and they get completely annihilated.
Book 5 is before W&W but we don't know WHAT will happen! So I'm saying let's take all that already have happened and extrapolate it into future remaining logical and cautious. Undoing duel does not waste everything, it creates new opportunities. I believe that SA5 will end with Dalinar on Tdium side, Stormfather dead, no more Stormlight, Roshar completely devastated by endless rain, which would destroy Kharbrant, which would mean Tdium broke his promise with himself, seriously wounding himself, that leave him unable to act.
Spoiler"A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears"
That just means there is many possibilities of how things may go, not just the one you like. Let's make reasonable assumptions that would melt the best and the worst scenario in the middle. So Dalinar is alive, he is better but he is not an master, and cannot do stuff like moving Oathgates, connecting Stormlight to Scadrial or Stormfather and sprens to Scadrial etc - or it has big limitations.
40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why on earth would they try to invade through it? Just soulcast a massive block of aluminum on top of it and call it a day. Invade through your own perpendicularities and Oathgates.
I was saying if Roshar would invide Scadrial through Harmony's perpendicularity, they would have problems with capturing it, and Scadrial has only one perpendicularity.
42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:1. The Oathgate spren can be moved off world as easily as any other
2. The aimians don't have surgebinding to make moving the Oathgate easy.
3. The Sibling is present throughout all the stone of Urithiru, but that's cut away and removed, or manipulated with Cohesion all the time.
None of them are harder to move than giant shardblades.
1 which is very hard, 2 yup, 3. that deosn't mean The Sibling can be moved, it is a different spren. Moving Shardblade out of Roshar is very hard. And yes, I know you will say "connectios" but they might not get that, they might not learn that, they might have problems with that. Old radiants did not do it, despite having thousands of years.
46 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Q. Why are the Ghostbloods looking for BAM?
A. Because she can disconnect Voidlight from Roshar.
Any Bondsmith can do the same.
If he know how.
47 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Just collect the gemhearts that are on the seafloor. It's not like the dead ones need them.
And why would they not spend time figuring out perfect gems? They are more important now than ever. With cohesion they can try as many times as they like, turning the gemstone soft, and shaping it until it stops leaking.
Good luck locating them and geting to them. We can lost multiple planes in the ocean, and you think they can find some small rocks? The Thrill would not be thrown into the ocean if it was that easy to get it out. They will work on making perfect gems, but I doubt they will make them in huge numbers.
50 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You have ONE example and use that as the baseline for the entire species?
No, we know how entire species is thinking based on two Inksprens as they told us how rest of them is thinking.
52 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:I'm the one who started the discussion I know better then anyone what it is for.
It's pretty easy to find people who are dangerous from those hiding based on position. Near the window = threat. Away in the basement holding onto family = not threat.
And while no not every Rosharan is a radiant, there are more than enough of them to do most of the work, like capturing Scadrian weapons and replicating firearms for the rest of the army.
Yes, you do, Scadrial vs Roshar, if only all of Scadiral were Metalborn, and all of Roshar were Radients, you would be correct, as that's all we talking about.
Civilians forced to stand next to window = threat - your logic. On Roshar there are no houses in CR. Also good luck making working modern weapons without coal - is it on Roshar? It was said it's to young to make fossils by Zahel.
57 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Lightweavers can't be found by secretspren, and there are only a handful of leechers, as seen by how they had to call in one from a different octent in SoS. It would be impossible to touch everyone in the entire command structure in any reasonable time, much less the entire army.
You have leaching grenades now. No need for touching. And Lightweavers might be found by skilful seeker - as they can even sence feruchemy.
58 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Yes, but they were still given them. If it didn't matter why bother? They were only going to be there a short time.
For the ship stability, speed and rules. Here is better example - supplies does not have any medalions on them, and they weight a lot.
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:The papers they ripped to shreds and then soaked in water?
The papers that Wax recovered from van and used them to locate the rocket? Yes, that's the one. And probably more captured by the police afterward.
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Then how did Wayne get the water in the barrels?
They have to be exposed to air at some point, it would be too dangerous to bring it all the way from Scadrial like that, so they have to take the Harmonium out of the oil on Roshar.
Please, you are smarter than this. You can SCALE DOWN the bombs, SEAL them off from the elements, and make automatic ignition. Or even radio-button. I don't believe I had to explain this...
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Anti-light is far more powerful than anything Scadrial has, fist sized gems could easily take out Elendel. And delivery is easy, build the bomb, set up a timer to mix the lights and drop it from the CR into the physical. And Stormlight is so common why would they need to conserve it?
One person can deliver it from CR, not that much of a delivery system. Anti-light is more powerfull. Common on Roshar, not on Scadrial, not when you are on the mission, in the middle of the fight etc. And preserving anti-light is a good idea when you killing fused and your production is small and limited.
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:You can make instruments that hit it for you. Like the sound plates Navani used.
You need to hear it first, to make it, it might take time as slight differences would make the plate not work, but yes.
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Roshar has higher population and can soulcast everything they need to make guns. Steal a few, reverse engineer them, and boom.
Alternatively they could make fabrial firearms after seeing guns for the first time.
Easy Roshar win.
yeaah, no. just nope. Soulcasted gunpowder - very easy. Guns has to many moving parts to soulcast them easily. Not to mention how limited that would be, and only few could do it. Just no. And just because you have them doesn't mean you can use them. I know you are Roshar-fanboy, but hold your chulls.
1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:No, it was stopped because Autonomy decided that Scadrial had earned being left alone.
Because army could not get on the other side...
30 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:...No. Millimeters? Really?
Surprisingly in real full helmets, they tent to be very small.
32 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:You don't try to kill all your enemies. You scare them.
That's the point! Morale is winning the battle! If you can defeat the enemy befere there is a battle, you won!
34 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum.
That is really great point, and huge advantage for Scadrial.
36 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:especially when you look at 4 pages back
Tbf, when I saw just just the same arguments over and over on the first page, I skipped that to now - Sorry Frustration
16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Well capture Re-Shephir, and releases midnight essence in Elendel. And the Thrill to, because why not.
Haha, that would make a mess for sure
17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:Why would they use gunpowder? I have a number of ways they could do it with fabrials.
Gunpowder is easy
But you need to catch up to the guns and understand them, that's too big of an leap for Roshar. Too big.
I'm barely catching up with your responses - I'm too slow.
But still we're not discussing proper tactics, soldiers, weapons and logistics - that's what wins the wars. Not flying glowing man. Despite Napoleon's brilliance, he was still loosing battles in places he was absent in 1813 (that was whole coalition tactic) - Radiants won't win battles where they are absent.
Here is another thing that we ALL ignoring, that is Metal Art - Hemalurgy. Give all Scadrials hemalurigic spikes to use. EVERYONE! To steal Radiant bond with sprens. Coinshoters shooting spikes into binding points, Steel Ferrits spiking Bondsmiths (and your favourite Elsecallers) and stealing bonds, wounded man stealing bonds from Edgedancers that tries to help them. Just everyone has a spike to use. However you can imagine it, just do it. Roshar has no idea about that art, and Scadrial has some practice in recent years already. You just have to have intention, and know where to put it. And before you see, Scadiral will have own Radiants fighting against Roshar. Just brilliant, foolproof.
1 -
3 hours ago, therunner said:
Kalak claims he nearly figured it out, that and he is now willing to talk to Shallan. So they could have figured it out, and being aware of Ghostblood kept it secret.
Or Ghostbloods did steal that knowledge, and use it to move purify and move Dor.They can or cannot, but close is not the same as figuring it out. And Dor was already being distributed on Scadrial's CR in Secret History.
3 hours ago, therunner said:And Kaladin is having atypically bad time of Windrunner (what with no guidance), look at Lopen or Teft
Teft had it easy? Strongly disagree, I would said he had it as hard as Kaladin to reach 3rd ideal. That struggle is very subjective and someone might think Teft has easy time, yet it only depended on Teft perception, and for him it was very hard. Many Radiants would face similar subjectivly hard struggle to reach 4th ideal.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Ishar learned enough to be named "Binder of gods" back on Ashyn, when he was still mortal. At the same time he (or another Bondsmith, if there were more) caused destruction of Ashyn, and enabled refuges to move to Roshar by super-powered Elsecalling.
And he did not have advantage of prior expertise to consult, unlike Dalinar who has Stormfathar and Sibling, possibly Kalak as well.Yes, Stormfather, aka "I didn't know you can do it before you did it" is gonna be a lot of help. Sibling works the same. Kalak and Ishar are unreliable and unstable, and might not want to share that knowledge - Ash was a whole year with them and they did not get that much.
3 hours ago, therunner said:There are no Fullborn period, unlike Elsecallers of which one is definitely active on Roshar. If there are no futher Elsecallers, there are certainly no Fullborn. Let us be equally strict with both sides.
And nope, Bands of Mourning are less Invested than both Shardplate and Shardblades (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e4878). They are just full metalmind of multiple metals (as far as we know), and even non-Radiant soulcasters could soulcast those (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681)
Elsecaller would have chance only if attacking from Cognitive, where they are safe (as Fullborn has no way to access them there).Yes, there are no Fullborn, and there will be no more (I started it only as what if), and there is only one Elsecaller. Fair to the Bands of Mourning, still that is not one metalmind but 16 combined, and fully charged wich a lot of Investiture, and that might be much more troublesome than regular single metalmind. Possible but very hard. And before one Elsecaller would do it, she would be killed by ultrasonic "medalion Fullborn".
3 hours ago, therunner said:So at this stage, you have around 6000 metalborn with abilities useful in combat or support roles, who are of fighting age, and most have next to no combat experience. That is it.
Additionally not metals are equally rare, e.g. there is only few F-steel ferring in all of Elendel (population 5 million), but we don't any proper numbers on those distribution (though apparently coinshots and lurchers are among the most common, vs f-steel are among the rarest).
Radiant are (at this point) all combat trained, and actually train and fight in groups, unlike metalborn who have been shown not doing anything like that in Era 2.Good calculations. Still is it that hard to take care of your skills? Marasi having "useless" metal without training was able to masterfully use it even in AoL. And teams of metalborn are present in era 1, and to some lesser extend era 2 - A-Iron and A-Steel team in AoL, TLM has copied Wax and Wayne and Marasi was suprised that Bilming police has no anti-allomancer team, suggesting that Elendel now has a teams of allomancers etc. They are mention sometime, but not fucused on. Most of the metalborns would be at similar level of skill as squires of Radiants. Still long way to go, yet deadly - like Vin killing her first Mistborn (kind of, not really, but you get the point).
3 hours ago, therunner said:Shooting a plane moving without appreciable acceleration is difficult with AA guns (and Scadrial does not have particularly advanced ones), and Windrunner is constantly accelerating and much smaller target than a plane.
It will be hard. But Wax had grenade launchers that filled the air with shrapnels, that will do the job. You don't need to hit them, but to fill the air with bullets and shrapnels to drain them out of Stormlight. That is very doable.
3 hours ago, therunner said:How does Scadrial have advantage? Radiants have overwhelming advantage in close quarters combat, and Orders with Cohesion can move through city as if the walls were not even there. + every Radiant has a spren they can use for scouting.
Radiants do have advantage, but regular rosharians don't, and they will be doing 95% of fighting in city of size of Elendel (look at scale on map). Scadrials knows the terrain, all little paths they can take, hideouts, canals, houses, towers etc. And they had guns, for rosharians to do any damage they had to be close, they won't pass positions and barricaded roads, filled with guns and machine gun nests, they won't get even close. Not to mention artillery support. Explosives will deal with Radiants, as they won't be able to sustain healing on that scale for long, most won't be be able to manoeuvre well in close quarters and their crystals holding Stormlight would get broken by explosives, and even single bullet.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Electrum while useful is not enough, 3rd oath windrunner would defeat full Mistborn, electrum or no, in a battle. Electrum misting is comparative cakewalk.
With electrum - no way, he sees he's own future and reacts to it instinctively. And in the battle between Kaladin vs Kelsier per WoB, Kelsier would win - and they both are the best of the best. Electrum misting would be hard to deal with as long as he have electrum, he would be keeping Radiants busy with him, giving time for reinforcements to arrive and overwhelm them - that's the way. Again, battle at the end of HoA, regular dudes with atium defeated thousends of Koloses, electrum would work similarly, as we see in era 1.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Most scientist were running away from TwinSoul did they not? And it took Set 6 years to create the bombs, Roshar has 10 to learn to weaponize anti-light x light reactions.
Navani used principles known to others in Rosharan scientific community, and based on her approach will share her findings. And Urithiru was not relevant in the process whatsoever.
What Scadrial now has is a suicide ships, because they were unable to fit it on rockets. Not exactly ideal method of deployment.No, most were capture and traped in Marasi's time bubble. Many others would most likely be capture by the police. And they already has whole bunch of documents sot they can replicate all of that fast. Navani will share, but how many rosharians will be able to hear the rhythms that well? That's the bottleneck. The big bomb was too big to pack on the rocket. However they can make it much smaller, still very powerful, and fit it in the rocket. Very ideal, as you now have tactical nukes.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Once again, the plate does not have eyeslits. They can be closed even on deadplate, and typically are in battle. (i.e. Jasnah had her plate sealed airtight for most of the battle in RoW).
So guns wont help there, and not every Scadrian is the same crackshot as Wax, in fact except him there are none, that is why he is the legandary Dawnshot and not run-of-the-mill lawman.
For the artillery, why would Radiants stand waiting to get hit? Most orders are quite mobile, or heal better than the rest, or can build fortifications.Plate HAS eyeslits! Jasnah plate in RoW was the living plate, so it could adjust, but the regular dead one has eyeslits - Kaladin killed Helaran through eyeslits. Adolin and Dalinar rushing towards archers always cover their eyeslits. So guns would very much help here. And many opponents that Wax encounter were very skilled at aiming. Random bullet is as deadly as aimed one. Artillery do not shoots at one location but on the entire fields, square kilometers of land, making it hard to get on the other side. You can heal as long as you have Stormlight, with cracked crystal - no healing.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Instead Scadrial lacks resources as Trellium was rare to begin with, and now is no longer occurring as Autonomy divested.
That's the problem, but they still have some leftover Trellium, more than 5 spikes, possibly more in some storages of Set. But few bombs would still be extreamly destructive.
3 hours ago, therunner said:Ehm, Radiants fought repeated wars to destroy and push away Singers, lobotomized Singers effectively committing cultural and social genocide (while under less threat than during actual Odium-driven Desolations) and Elsecaller advocated full-on genocide of at the time innocent Parshmen without jeopardizing her Oaths.
Sure Windrunners might be against such tactics, but in individual engagements they will fight and they will fight to win (see, well nearly all of the battles across SA).
The other Orders will take care of the 'dirty' strategies and tactics.You all forgets about differences in tactics between Roshar and Scadrial. Modern guns and artillery change everything. While Roshar has army marching in one line to engage in swordfights, Scadrial has probably the same tactics as used in Franco-Prussian war or even WW1 with introduction of ariships. Rosharians would be sitting ducks for any machine gun and artillery. Scadrial tactics is defence in depth - layers of lines, fortified positions, machine gun nest, artillery postions of different range - all spaning tens of kilometers in length and depth with position for reatret etc. That sheer difference in tactics would be a key factor in all engagements, and without modern weapons, rosharians would not be able to addapt. Radiants cannot be everywhere, they cannod hold positions for long, Stormlight will get exhausted. Most of the fighting is done by footman, not Radiant - see in Jasnah PoV in battle. Radiants alone will not hold the ground - offten said in SA. It's like sending unsupported tanks in the middle of enemy positions - they will do damage, but single rocket from man-pad and tank is done.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:. Why would they be harder to move that simply shifting the platform? Shardblades can move easily. Even the Sibling can be moved without trouble. Why would the Oathgates be different?
It does not look very movable to be fair. And getting sprens out of Roshar would be hard. 10 years is to short to learn all of that, even if they knew about it being possible - they don't. Aimians did not move Oathgate, they cover it on top. And can Sibling be moved?? Source?
1 hour ago, Frustration said:You know, like a certain spren already known for stealing Connection, and has the ability to generate Voidlight.
Which might be dead, traped or hidden - book 5 not 4 we don't know, better not include.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Dozens of Honorspren we're immediately willing to bond. Why on earth would not a single Inkspren change their minds? That's like assuming there wasn't a single Soviet sympathizer in the USA during the cold war. I guarantee you there were.
Ehh, Because Inksprens seams holding much bigger grudge without feeling responsibility like Honorsprens, and now it's even worse! Inksprens believe that it's not only their life at stake, but whole of Roshar - they are much more logical than Honorsprens, so they will follow their logic. They will not join, as in their mind it would mean destruction of Roshar.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Rarer. You forget that Higher Skybreaker ideals require them to act outside of Nale, which they don't want to do.
Where is that WoB about Kaladin I've never seen it. And regardless Kaladin is an outlier case, not all Radiants are suicidal.
What progresing Ideal has to do with following Nale? Nale didn't stoped Szeth's training despite being enemies, why would he prevent his allies from reaching 4th ideal? That stupid. About Kaladin - it was somewhere, either related to RoW or OB (when he almost sworns 4th oath), maybe in addnotations. Can't find WoB, but Brandon was talking about Kaladin reaching 4th idael - either he says it and reach 5th one, or he would be stuck on 3th forever. All Radiants has their own struggle which in their mind might be as hard as Kaladin's and that's the only thing that matters.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Brandon has one last book to show off Bondsmiths and he gave Dalinar ten days to learn, it must be possible.
How do you know that the duel would even take place in 10 days, and that's not the whole plan of Todium? How do you know that Dalinar would be one to fight, that he would use his Bondsmith's skills in that fight? All I got, was that his training with Ishar was going to be to remade Oathpact, not about duel. That training might be after duel, or not at all, if Dalinar got killed. Book 5, not 4.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:2. Soulcasting is instant, so unless the Fullborn can teleport they can't outrun it.
3. Soulcasters can easily make building sized objects, the Fullborn would run out of strength long before they managed to get out.
Time bubbles. Still with a little of steel spead, time bubbles, grenades, and leaching and coinshooting, all soulcasters would get killed before they even realized what they are dealing with. And that is important.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:It doesn't need to be hidden, but it's tucked in a hard to reach location in the mountains, and serves as a choke point. If Roshar captures that it's the end of Scadrials CR influence.
Compare this to Roshar who could lose over thirty perpendicularities, and would still have access.
Roshar has bigger advantage on homegroud, that I said before. But that perpendicularity is guarded by Koloses, and it would be the same chokepoint for Roshar if they capture it - so easy to cut off, so easy to focus all your forces on that position, and blast them into oblivion, before more reinforcement came. Or send H-T bomb there and do nothing, work as well.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Not likely. The pits aren't active, so I doubt the Well of Ascension is either
The Well most likely not, but harmony could change something and move both perpendicularities somewhere else. But still, I agree.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Non invested objects sink, the mists aren't water.
Easy, metalmind-ships for the win.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Tai-na gemhearts are easily the size of houses, they would last the trip, especially if they used Oathgates. And with Cohesion they can make gemstones perfect.
Oh, good luck with that, another genocide of sapient species? Why not, lets kill everything with gems before Scadrials even arrives. And they don't know how to make perfect gemstones still, so they might not made them in big numbers within 10 years.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:With the CR they can easily find resistance, so no hiding out.
They won't be able to distinguished civilians from soldiers, and Rosharians are not used to fight house to house. And as I said, not every Rosharian is Radiant. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:How would they be found?
Seekers... and Leachers. Anything more?
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Source
Didn't in TLM Wax and Max boarded ship before Max get his amulet? And logicly, one person weight is too little compare to the whole weight of big ship, so there is a little margin there for only few people.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Yes but why did they wait six years if they already had it functioning? It would explode but their delivery method, and blasting power weren't up to what they needed.
Set needed to destroy all of Elendel (5mil people) from safe distance - we don't need that, smaller bombs would be more useful on tactical level in war than big strategic one like that.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:You mean the scientists he and Marasi killed? There might be some that are still alive but they will have lost most of them. Not to mention that Autonomy had to give them most of it.
She capture most of them in the bubble, not to mention many others outside that room in caves, now all arrested. Autonomy give them that knowledge but it didn't disappear, after she's gone... And it's on capured papers.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:No, the increased water content would detonate the Harmonium before the Trellium could.
You know you can seal it off?
1 hour ago, Frustration said:The same thing can just be scaled up, use larger gems, and speed increases proportionally. And given that it's more powerful than anti-matter I don't think the amount produced is a problem.
I would give Roshar the same amount of explosive power as Scadrial after 10 years (they might not go this way, as anti-light might be to valuable for killing fuesed and sprens). But that just raw power, no delivery systems.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Anyone can do it, all of the scientific principles already exist. And the only thing they need to do is make the plates and vacuum tube. With that anyone can make it.
Hitting that perfect note is quite important and that might take time for everyone else.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:That's Dalinar Kaladin and Szeth's entire plot in KoW. What would they do if they didn't get Ishar to teach Dalinar?
Because the book is still not published yet? You don't know what will happen so everything is equally as probable. Todium might win and kill everyone. Or asteroid might hit Roshar and kill everyone. So let's talk on what in book 4, and carefully predict future base on that we know, and not that we don't know.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:All Orders can move faster than Scadrial can aim, and I don't care how precise you gun is eyeslits are a few mm wide. The bullet can't fit through that.
Rain of bullets and shrapnels on 1km long field is as dangerous for Plates as precise shots - and most of them won't have plate, and most of Rosharians are not Radiants.
3 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said:It's like the Civil War. One side has more romantic ideals of war and honor with better generals and *technically* better troops, but the other has a larger industrial base, navy, and the scorched earth tactic.
Or like Napoleon invading Spain and Russia, best gennerals, tactics, soldiers and cannons won't do much when they struggle for supplies and logistics.
Discussion of an possible alien invasion through CR is futile as that is exactly what happened in TLM. And that invasion was stoped by Marasi with barely any support, intel, manpower and resources - it is nothing compared to planet wide mobilisation. And we don't even know, what man of gold and red are even capable of. We can assume they would easily deal with any misting and ferring on their way. But it wasn't metal arts that Autonomy consider a threat but technological progress alone! Which is very telling. That could mean that Scadrial now possessed technology that can face any Investiture based abilities.
And as we could all see, stoping invasion from CR, that had support of inside and powerful organisation, in undisclosed localisation, that had created their own way from CR to PR, with unknown abilities and weaponry, that was in work for more than 6-10 years, was prevented basically by ONE person (with support of an team) and ONE grenade. It was that simple despite the odds. Now mobilized whole, united Basin and make them face the same threat with all resources, manpower, weaponry and technology, and invasion from CR is just impossible. You can add to this Malwish Consortium (and their enemies) and it's even more impossible than ever. Invasion from CR is just not gonna work anytime soon.Radiants on Roshar do not fight on battlefields alone, they have thousands of soldiers fighting as well, without them, Radiants would be quickly overwhelmed. And Scadrial has better tech, tactics, weapons, and logistics. Shard won't hold the ground. That's the whole point of that discussion, to pitch Roshar vs Scadrial, not Radiants vs Metalborn - and that is what we currently all doing, discussing who is better, Radiants or Metalborn (Radiants). So how about focusing less on few hundreds of Radiants/Metalborn aka tanks that sometimes can fly, and more on hundreds of thousands of regular soldiers?
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14 hours ago, Frustration said:
Why would they try to move them? All the ones they control are in strategically important areas, removing them would be foolish, and without portals it would be time consuming. And how would the Oathgate spren and the Sibling not know it was possible?
You are talking about moving them, and both sprens and Sibling are not willing to share informations without asking. Moving or creating Oathgates in 10 years is just too much, as we don't even know what it took to made them in the first place - thay might be incredibly difficult to made.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:Both Shallan and Jasnah know and are in contact with Hoid who is definitely aware of the problem, and desires a way to solve it. I'd say it would be less likely for them to not find a solution in the next ten years that for them to do so.
They have bigger problems now, to worry about something they don't need. And again - Ghostbloods don't figure it out, they won't as well.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:You assume all Inkspren are the same as Blended. Ivory came already, and just like there were those more willing among the Honorspren there will be those more willing among the Inkspren.
1 have joined Radiants, when all he believed was that Jasnah might/will kill him, now all Inksprens knows that ancient sprens have chosen death to save Roshar, as Radiant powers might destroy the planet. I'm pretty convinced, that all undecided are now fully convinced not to help Radiants, as this is now much bigger threat. No Elsecallers for you.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:You assume that all of the oath 4+5 we're there, but no one below?
They all had armor at Feverstone Keep, they were 4+ ideal. And it is very hard to get there, Kaladin struggles a lot, faced suicidal thoughts all time, and deep dark depression. It was very hard for him to overcome all of this to reach 4th ideal, and as per WOB, if Kaladin did not make it in RoW, he would never become 4th Ideal Windrunner. It's fair to assume, with words from Skybreaker, that 4th Ideal is rare.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:Bondsmithing can't be that difficult to learn.
I'm sorry, what? You compare Ishar that had like 7000 years to master surges, to Dalinar, that is doing it for barely a year, and will have another 10 years IF he survives 5th book. Not a good comparison. Connection is the most powerful force of Cosmere, and very little is known about it even for us, it will be very hard for Dalinar to master it, as all he does now is just a hunch, rather than skill.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:The Siblings Bondsmith would likely be stuck, but the Nightwatcher isn't necessary for the planet, and the Stormfather doesn't need to leave for his Bondsmith to keep their powers
Nightwatcher is not bonded, and Stormfather is omnipresent on Roshar, not Scadrial. Which is very important distinction. Bondsmithing is very likely not to work outside Roshar system.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:Roshar will control the CR in this fight, there is just no way for them to lose.
No doubt on that, but I was talking on using scouts, they can use mistings that would burn metals like morse code in CR, that would be recieved by Seekers in PR. Just enough to get information so they can act. But Roshar will be in control of Scadrial CR, even without Radiants.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:Both Venli and Jasnah use it all the time.
Fair, but they using it from PR to look into CR, not the other way around. Outside battle of Thaylen field, when they do not use any of that information, no such actions were made.
14 hours ago, Frustration said:And an Elsecaller could kill them easily.
Shift to the CR, and soulcast away the bands, or place them inside a solid aluminum cube.
No Elsecallers for you, and they would not be able to kill Fullborn, he could move faster than speed of sound, think faster than supecomputers, and easily locate and kill any Elsecaller before they ever see what is happening. Noone is just able to compete with Fullborn. Bands are extremely full of Investiture, it's the most invested thing apart from Nightblood ever made. It will be impossible to soulcast that. And Fullborn move faster than you can create any aluminum box, and he could easily break it with compound strength alone. Not to mention effects of emotional allomancy, that would paralyzed anyone, which we see in TLM.
10 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said:Pitched battles are shockingly stupid.
Yes they, are, but they are surprisingly equal and fair to both sides, making them a perfect tool for us to compare Roshar and Scadrial. I did not try to suggest that there would be a fair pitch battle on empty field.
10 hours ago, Flaming Coinshot said:Here's the thing about all of these theories, though. Modern warfare (even some older warfare) isn't necessarily about large-scale battles. Or rather, those who are remembered as military geniuses don't start those. Instead, it's logistics, careful planning, large-scale ambushes, and multiple small-scale ambushes. It's getting behind enemy lines and causing disruptances.
That's the point. Logistics and supplies wins the war. Both invasion scenario will fail shortly, as neither Roshar, no Scadrial can streach their logistics to reach others planet. They do not even have vessels to transport army on the other planet in large numbers, not to mention constant shipping of the supplies through CR, that would require monumental effort and manpower. It's like Napoleon or Hitler invading Britain - didn't happen as they couldn't make it through the canal. Any invasion even with innitial gains would quickly stop due to lack of supplies and then they would have to retreat because of resistance even of weaker forces. That's why I compere them on pitch battle conditions, as all of those troubles are removed from equation. No invasion can happen.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:To an extent. While they don't need Connection manipulation to leave they also don't have access to the CR without Harmony's perpendicularity. Additionally they don't have a way to traverse the CR, which on Scadrial takes the form of mists and requires invested objects in order to sail on(as described in SH) I don't know that on its own Scadrial has a way to navigate the CR without walking on the floor and trying not to drown.
Location of Harmony's perpendicularity was revealed in newspaper, not really hidden. And can't there still be Ruin's and Preservation's perpendicularities hanging aroung? And they could just take boats, planks, anything that floats and ship them to CR, not a big problem, we don't know how CR of Scadrial is looking now, but Kandra have to boats, so not a problem. And there is land in CR.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:There are probably thousands to tens of thousands of Inkspren. Is 10-20 of them being willing to bond humans after Maya's revelation really that unlikely?
Yes, because they did not do it before, and that revelations are gamechanger so they will not be willing to do it after. Also there were only 2000 Honorsprens in total, and they were the most numerous order, so I doubt any other sprens could have bigger numbers than Honorsprens, now all decimated by Recreance. And not all orders were numerous, some might be very few in numbers, so fewer sprens to bond, therefore low population is fair to assume for Inksprens, few hundreds at best.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Which makes them irreplaceable.
I would say there are more metalborns in total compared to Radiants, and metalborns had their whole life to train, and had best teachers with traditions of more than 1300 years. Metalborns are much more skilled and able to work in effective groups compared to Radiants, who just got their powers, and any new replacemant of dead one, will be completely untrained. Still Radiants had better combat related skills, including healing. But metalborns and regular Scadrials knows how to deal with someone with healing abilities - shot him until he runs out of healing.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:And a regular soulcaster could soulcast a full metalmind
Regular full metalmind is not the same as Bands of Mourning... The difference is staggering, both Wax and Marasi were leaking mists when they used it. They are too much invested to be affected by soulcaster or Radiant.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Nothing Scadrial has can outrun a Windrunner
They have AA guns, and stealrunners and pewter-runners. Maybe not that fast but still highly mobile. And you just need to shot them out of skies, as they have very limited amounts of Stormlight, IF they can transport it to Scadrial, which is not likely. Roshar forces don't have stockpile of perfect crystals, so it might be possible that all of the Stormlight stored in regular crystals would simply vanished before reaching Scadrial.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Why would they attempt a siege?
Modern siege is not the same as medieval one. They would need to take the city streat by streat, building by building, flat by flat - and in that fight, Scadrial has big advantage in that case, and knows it terrain too well.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Between Lightweaver and spren spies and CR observation no attack will be a surprise, they will have at least a half-hour warning.
Assuming they would use them, even now on Roshar, they used it once in Kholinar. And spies can be caught and mislead.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:With the Stormfather's ability to slow time Roshar has the same advantage.
No, that works, only on Roshar, only in Highstorms, only for very selected few. It's not comparable to Ferrings.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:I'm not sure what advantages you see to A-electrum though, it could maybe help you aim better, but that's hardly a game changer.
Seeing future is not a game changer? Vin would strongly disagree, Vorinism would strongly disagree. Everyone would, They are invincible, as seen in finale of HoA. And they also have Atium now, no Radiant could face someone with Atium, no matter of healing.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:That can't fly if anyone on them isn't storing weight.
Small one yes, big one can, but that is a problem for large number of people on board. Still Elendel has few of them, not to mention potentialy hundreds in hands of Malwish. I'm tend to send only Elendel and Urithiru coalition against one another, as we don't really know what Malwish or Fused are fully capable of and what technology they possessed. And uniting them is not possible in even alien invasion scenario, as we saw with Malwish inTLM.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:How do you carefully balance electrical imput and stretching the Harmonium, as well as the total size of the bomb while still making it portable? The Set didn't spend 6 years making it, they spent 6 years making it useable. Anti-light on the other hand is already portable and is already as efficient as it can get.
Set did it, they made multiple successful tests, all of that is in Wax hands now, including scientist. They can make it easily work on Roshar. Anit-light was only used in very small amounts, crystals worth of it, as it is very hard, slow, and limited process to produce even small amounts of it. Only Navani is capable to do it from Urithiru. And it was mostly used in a daggers, rather than as a bomb, they would need to figure out whole manufacturing/holding/delivery/igniting/aiming systems and more to produce capable weapons. Scadrial has it now. Usable.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Well there's 10 years to practice.
Or 10 year of being dead. Still 10 years is not a long time, as in 1 year Dalinar barely made any progress. We cannot also speculate if Ishar will teach him as that's outside of currently published books. So we can as well said Ishar tripped, fell and broke his neck.
8 hours ago, Frustration said:Hard is right, it won't work through plate, and Radiants have 7 foot long instant death sticks.
That death stick is useless when your enemy is ranged one with artillery. Living plates would be a very rare sight, and could be destroy under heavy fire, dead plates - aim at the eyeholes, and they are dead, easy with modern and precise guns.
That whole disscussion turned into "my side would wn" vs "my side would win" with stretched arguments without ever reaching sensible conclusion. I think that Frustration severely overestimates abilities, progress, and numbers of Roshar in that conflict. I'm of opinion that no invasion could take place, because of logistic, supplies and organized defence issues, that would not be overcome, especially when they would face enemy that they don't know anything about, on terrain they don't know, with tactics not familiar to them. On more fair ground, no invasion, just battle, even on large scale, ignoring all problems, Roshar would be winning side, but it won't be easy.
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1 hour ago, Frustration said:
When you only have to shift it a dozen or so feet through a portal it's not that hard. Especially when Stonewards can make it move itself
You are very focus on moving Oathgates, and yes, you have knowledge of how to do it - they do not even consider it as an option. I don't see it will be possible for them to do it in 10 years.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:According to Mraize it's a simple Connection issue(RoW 188). A Bondsmith could allow them to leave as easily as Ishar drew the light from Windrunners into the ground.
Problem with Bondsmiths connection manipulation is that everything they do, as for now, was very short lived - Dalinar learning Azir language, Dalinar connecting to Nale, Ishar connecting radiants to the ground etc - nothing last significantly long. And if they don't know about difficulties of moving Stromlight, they won't find solutions to it.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:Considering how many spren came immediately after learning the truth I think we can easily expect tens of full Radiants of every order.
Additionally at the recreance nearly 300 individuals from just 2 orders were all 4th oath or higher. 4th isn't that rare.
Inksprens who fears surges in human hands might destroy the world? I doubt anything will change their opinion, after revelation about Recreance from Maya. No Elsecallers for you.
From that 300 of 4th ideal, 100 were Windrunner - 2000 Honorsprens died during Recreance, that is JUST 5%, not counting squires. Very rare.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:The centuries before didn't have unchained Bondsmiths.
Ture, however both have very little experience, and in 10 years they would be at best mediocre (Dalinar might not be alive) lacking abilities nessesery for operation on that scale. There is also very big probability that they would not be able to act outside Roshar, because they are connected to sprens heavly connected to Roshar, which depends heavily on their presence.
1 hour ago, Frustration said:It would reveal troop placement, and numbers. As well as find Kandra easily. It might not be an instant win, but you might as well have gps trackers on all of Scadrials agents.
True, assuming that there is no presence of any scouts in CR of Scadrial, and as we know, Harmony is extending his reach in Cosmere, so we can assume there are people watching CR that can then coordinete with PR to minimise the impact of that action - which was not really used that much on Roshar, so it is very probable it won't be used on Scadrial, and Scadrial can use it as well.
Here is a fun and "realistic" scenario. As we know, massed presence of allomancers and feruchemist plus alien Investiture results in creation of perpendicularity. Now Scadrials group their forces on some remote region of Roshar in CR with huge amount of Harmonium and it might manifest an perpendicularity to the complete unawareness of anyone on Roshar. That amount of Harmony's Investiture would hide their actions from Stromfather. Then they just need to construct their base from concrete and steel and move troops and supplies on Roshar. They will easily strike within very last week of weeping where almost all of Stormlight is depleted - They send H-T bomb on Urithiru destroing it completely, killing most of the Radiants, and send strike forces on flying ships high above ground to other centers of Radiants wiping them out using guns, bombs and artillery, and capturing remaining Oathgates. The same treatment for Odium forces, and within no time they would have control over all of Roshar. Easy - only if we ignore thousends of problems and assume that noone spotted them during preparations in CR and PR. The same goes for the Roshar invasion of Scadiral - but they don't know it is possible. And both sides will have problems with Connection. Not possible in realistic way, but fun.
EDIT
No invasion scenario would result in success for any side, all would be dead on arrival. However if we placed both armies on neutral ground, pitch battle, ignoring all the problems with connection, supllies, and how they got there, then Roshar would win. Radiants are just too powerful, and no misting, feruchemist or twinborn would rival them especially in rare shardplate. Most regular troops of Roshar would be wiped out, as they stand no chance against modern weapons, Scadrial troops would be much more effective in dealing with Radiants, but with heavy casualties, Raduants would be victorious and the last one standing. But if you add Fullborn or someone trained with fully charged bands of mourning - the result would be devastating for Roshar, as that's just full on god's powers with unlimited compounding. No Radiant would be able to face that.
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20 hours ago, Frustration said:
TLM is about 10 years after SA 5. Any progress I give Roshar is the reasonable progress they could make in that time.
It's fair, but it is very hard to predict how they will progress. I highly doubt that they will be able to move Oathgates of out of Roshar in 10 years - that's just crazy achievement. And more, because Ghostbloods doesn't have a stockpile of Stormlight on Scadrial, it looks like they did not figure out the way of how to move Stormlight out of Roshar - and that means rosharians can't have that resource on Scadrial during invasion, and even more important no spren can go out of Roshar, and even bondsmiths would probably not overcome it in 10 years - so no radiant powers on Scadiral, nor any Shardblades and Shardplates. And I also doubt that Elsecaller's sprens would wanted to bond within that 10 years - other orders would progres in ideals and numbers and maybe 10% of them would reach 4th ideal - or even less, as Skybreaker knight says how rare it is to reach 4th ideal, so in 10 years there might be just few of them. So some advancements are fair to assume but only within resonable rate of it, depending on how the situation looks right now on Roshar, and what are the needs. They don't need to search for the way of interplanetary invasion and will not be needing it in 10 years, so they will not resolve those problems anytime soon.
17 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:It's important because time doesn't move in a vacuum. In the event of war, both worlds will drive all their efforts, natural resources, and people towards winning. And that means that they need better ways to fight.
That's fair point, I agree. Some progress will be made. But that raise the question - how much time of preparation would both sides get? I would say none, war just suddenly happened and they use what they have right now to resolved it as quickly as they can in both separate scenarios of invasion. Initially most advancements would be made on strategic and tactical levels, far fewer on technological as both Scadrial and Roshar don't have that big industrial facilities yet (Scadrial has much more of them than Roshar).
In that case the best chances of winning has the side that would make most initial territorial gains - and I just cannot see neither Scadrial nor Roshar capture and hold enough land on the other planet to have stable positons - in that case it's all over as both sides will get aware of others abilities, and will find ways to contermesure them, prepere defences and fortify positions. Scadial with rapid industrial grow would outproduce Roshar to the extreme but it might be hard for them to found a way to deal with Radiants on Roshar quickly enough. Both entry points for invading armies are limited to perpendicularities and Oathgates and that's very easily defensible chokepoints.
Single Radient is a powerhouse of its own, much more powerful than any misting or feruchemist - but they need Stormlight to utilize it, and without it they are just another regular soldier on Scadrial, killed by bullet. I just simply can't see them resolving an issue with transporting Stormlight out of the world that quickly, when so many others failed over centuries before.
31 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:Aluminum? Would that work? I'm sorry, I'm not very well understanding of how Aluminum works.
I think it would work, someone in aluminum box might be not seen in CR - voidsprens in OB could not find soulcasters in Kholinar as they were in aluminum box. But watching from CR would not reveal the weapons, guns and armament of people you see, as those cognitive presences doesn't have to be where object in physical realm is. You would mostly know that there is a lot of people there and that's mostly it.
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3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:
From our perspective investure cannot be part of the natural world. It comes from a different origin, Is neither matter nor energy, And openly violates the laws of a natural world.
The problem is, in Cosmere Investiture is another state of matter and energy:
SpoilerQuoteQuestioner
Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.
We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.
So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)In Cosmere Investiture is inseparable part of natural world, described by laws and set of rules. That however does not mean everyone in Cosmere knows and discovered all those laws. Wax tried to describe mechanisms of Investiture using laws and understanding he possessed at that time - which might not be correct ones.
And here I use a real life example - search for planet Vulcan. Scientists using Newton's law of gravity were calculating and predicting orbits of planets, they observed that the real orbit of Mercury was different than predicted one, and they speculated wrongly that there must be another planet in between Sun and Mercury, that disturbes Mercury's orbit (similar to how they discovered Neptun). They'd been searching for that planet until Einstein's theory of general relativity explain why Mercury's orbit departs from previously predicted one. They were wrong, because Newtonian physics is not precise enough.
Understanding of nature on Scadrial right now is simply not advanced enough to link Investiture with matter and energy and described it as a natural phenomena. The same goes for Cognitive and Spiritual Realms - they are both integral part of Cosmere governed by sets of specifics rules. People like Wax just don't understand that yet.
And to get back on tracks - I think that the events of TLM will even increase the numbers of Pathism's followers as people could clearly witness god's divine intervention (even if very restricted) and Kandra presence that saved them, and religion doctrine might simply add Authonomy as a rival to Harmony wanting to destroy Scadrial. People just got the proof that Harmony is a real, powerful god, caring for Scadrial, and they just might ignore implications of existence of other gods - if that information will be shared to public (unlikely, I must say), as for now only selected few (mostly Kandra and Ghostbloods) knows what really was happening and why. For most people it was "just" culmination of the plot against Elendel resolved again by Wax and Wayne and few others - not divine battle over Scadrial existence. So nothing will really change.
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@Frustration How would they even move Oathgate when they don't even know how was it made and just recently learn how to move just to CR? They do not have that knowledge after RoW. Moreover there is only ONE skilled Elsecaller with no sprens willing to bond, and ONE Willshaper that just begin to learn how to surgebind. Furthermore production of anti-light is very limited at the end of RoW, so no mass production of it and not even thoughts of weaponry on scale of bombs at the end of RoW. To add more, Roshar currently has only 2 radiants of 4th ideal - just 2, no more.
You basically say that Roshar would master all Surgebinding, get all knights on 5th ideal with all sprens involved, figure out stuff that they didn't even think about yet and make everything there is to make, just because it is possible for them to make and was made before, and they had that abilities in the far past. It would be as well counter with argument of someone geting the power of Well of Ascention, vaporized every invading rosharian, and make milion Rashek-like soldiers, each with Harmonium-Trellium bombs with hundreds of MT yield, to set up on Roshar - just because it could be done, thye could have know how to do it, and it happend before.
I just don't get that arguments of what they could do, if they knew everything there is to know when right now, they do not have neither knowledge, nor abilities, nor numbers to do any of that. We should compare them as they are at the end of each book, with the same skills, knowledge, numbers, even not united but conflicted among themselves as they are, and just maybe give them more equipment but only the one they already have and figured out how to make, as long as there are resources to make them right now, not what they could make in the future.
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I was also thinking before TLM that it would be so "useful" to have some hamalurgic donor system in the future, where sick or old people could volunteer to get spiked, so their rare metalic arts would be gifted to someone else. Of course with payment granted to their families. Just like organ donors today. But with revelations from TLM it seams even resonable to do, as now the donor remains alive, and there are new rules and restrictions on how much spikes you can get, with possibility to even remove spikes. It will definitely get more popularized in the future, maybe even legalized.
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As I understand it, there is no Ruin or Preservations any more, only Harmony. Those Shards no longer exist in pure form, they're part of Harmony but Harmony is somewhat different from any of them alone. So there cannot be any Atium nor Lerasium made as there are no Shards connected to that metals. That's why splitting Harmonium required so much imput and getting both Atium and Lerasium was a big deal as it was unexpected.
But why would Marsh wanted to be involved in any of this? Last time he was, he was a puppet of pure destruction, he killed countless of innocent people, tortured and spiked dozens of Allomancers and Feruchemist, almost killed Vin, nearly was killed, killed Elend, almost lead to destruction of the whole world, and was spiked more than 20 times, feeling constant pain, that maybe he still feels. Moreover his feruchemic powers are weaker than normal feruchemist have, forcing him to spend more time on filling up metalminds than doing something. He might still be geting tired very quickly. Why on rust would he ever want to be seriously involved in anything considering all of that? Did he not deserved to just chill out? And to add more, he has more than 20 spikes, making him easily controllable not only for Shards.
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The thing that makes me wonder is that army of "gold and red" were sent to destroy Scadrial's civilazation as we know. Not conquer, but destroy, as it was to dangerous to let them be alive. And they always mention as "men of gold and red" - nothing more, except guns when Marasi saes them. Their color and objective makes me doubt that they are humans as we know them - it would be just to hard to destroy whole planet's civilazation with living army that need constant supplies (Desolations on Roshar proves that). The duality of their color is the only description we got, and they were to be used only if the bomb would fail - not with the bomb to subject the population under the Set. They must be much grater threat than just some people, not to be deployed alongside regular Set members. That made me think about other dangerous, weird, almost single color entities - Shades of Threnody - men of black and red when enraged. They are not exactly the same, but I think "men of gold and red" might be made in the image of Shades, but more controlable and self-aware version of them - basically some sort of Cognitive Shadows, as they would not need any supplies, almost unkillable, with additional shades-like abilities they could easily destroy whole life on the planet. They might even work as Fused and required a host body to take over - there was a cave full of people to use just where the perpendicularity was. Regular human army even with advanced technology would have hard time inviding another planet just from single location.
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They both would be unbeatable on their home ground. Mainly to the one thing - supplies. There is just no possilbe way for both of them to reliably supply their army on the other planet with only few perpendicularity to use and very, very, very long, and troublesome lines of supply.
IF Rosharians manage to land on Scadiral then artillery and gunfire would alone pound them into nothingness - not to mention using coinshoters on all of that metal equipment. They won't be able to gain big enough ground and resupply losses quick enough to even stand a chance. Radients require Stormlight to work which for now is impossible to take out of Roshar - Radients would be useless on Scadiral. They would fail in conventional warfare with enemy far superior tehnologic supported by allomancers and feruchemists.
Scadirals on the other hand would not be able to fully conquer even Roshar's CR because of Radients. They would be easly outmanoeuvred by Roharians with multiple access points to CR (Oathgates), and the Sprens would be a force to deal with first. But then again if they gain some ground in PR, supplying army through one perpendicularity/oathgate would be too big of an chokepoint, constantly harassed from flanks in CR by Radients with hard ground in PR to defend against numerically superior force with Radients having Fullborn-Tanks-like powers.
But Scadirals have new bombs in their arsenal. Harmonium-Trellium (H-T) bomb is ridiculously overpowered - it was said that if that bomb exploded between Elendel and Bilming, both of them would be destroyd. They are almost 100 miles apart on the map (160km) so that's blast radius of little less than 80 km capable of leveling buildings. BIGGER than the Tsar Bomb that had power of 50MT, which was the most powerfull bomb ever made! With 50MT that radius when buildings are mostly leveled is around 17km. It is just ridiculously more powerful. It would kill everyone, regardless of healing within dozens of kilometers radius. Yet even with that they would not be able to make them in such numbers to make difference as they simply don't have enough Trellium. So maybe they could afford one smaller bomb made from all of Trellium spikes and leftover Set's Trellium. Still bigger than Tsar Bomb probably. Regullar Harmonium bombs would be much more common, much smaller in destructive power with biggest having "just" few kilometers of building-leveling power (if even the one set by Wayne was that powerful, I would say no). Yet they can only just now make some small rockets with small payload, which is technology still not fully understanded on Scadrial yet. So not really helpfull if they cannot deliver that bombs from far away.
I was using https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ to see the "Moderate blast damage radius" on which I assume power of H-T bomb, with the setting of surface burst. They don't go more than 100MT but for our bomb it is much more than 100MT. And that assuming that blast of H-T bomb would destroy most buildings from both cities with pressure blast, as it was predicted in the book.
Either way, logistic and supply wound be the end of any planetary invasion in the matters of days/weeks. That's why Kelsier insisted on developing other means of interplanetary travel, independent from CR. Without that and ability to take Stromlight out of Roshar, there is no way for any kind of reasonable invasion by both sides.
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Autonomy road to conquest was cut and destroy, and all of her inside spies were defeated. She could try to send them to the other perpendicularity (which is guarded by the kolosses) but that's outside the Valley and far away. She was already overinvested on Scadrial, pushing for more would force her to invest even more, when Harmony was back in power, and aware of her plans. Now he could easly prepare defence of the planet on favorable mountainous ground, while her army was still stuck in the bubble. Strategically she lost that fight, and trying to push one more time, without any support from the inside, would be disastrous. She needs to withdraw and regroup to make new plans. Moreover people of Scadial just show that they want to be independent from her which aligns with her intent - trying to kill them might hurt Autonomy.
And how even her army of gold and red even works? Who or what are they? Are the Cognitive Shadows like Fused that required body or something different? Do they need supplies like food or investiture? It simply might be that her army could not work on any other position without her perpendicularity - I don't think we have enough information about what was that army.
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Did you forget that Dalinar is the Blackthorn? The most experienced and fearsome warrior on Roshar that butchered countless lifes? Kaladin is great soldier but being a soldier is not the same as being a warrior. Dalinar can't fly but he is Bondsmith which is something even more powerful, as flying did not help Nale when he faced Dalinar's abillieties in RoW.
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That probably should be in Cosmere Discussion thread - it's both SA and Mistborn era 2 spoilers.
There was few discussions like this before, here's one:
I say Kaladin is not and will not be sword of Harmony. Wax however is, Wax was called multiple times Harmony's sword. And like I said in topic above:
QuoteHarmony needs someone to act on his behalf as he is useless even on the world he's most (and only as far as we know) invested in. Kaladin being that sword would be equally as useless as Harmony is right now as both of them cannot act on Scadrial where they're both most needed. Wax on the other hand is on Scadrial, is watched by Harmony and his Kandra from early on, performs multiple tasks on behalf of Harmony, talks with him on multiple ocasions, his story takes place after this letter is written, and he even said he's a Sword of Harmony. I don't know why there is such confusion about who is Sword of Harmony. Kaladin is Son of Honor not Sword of Harmony.
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I was asking the same question, as there should be hundreds or thousands of missing Shardblades. I think they may be kept in Shinovar alongside Honorblades, at least some of them. Here, if you want to read it:
Your idea sounds cool, yet the bigest problem with it is regular travel in and out of Shadesmar - as only one perpendicularity is accessible for travel, high in the mountains - it would be hard and time consuming but doable. But how to leave a Deadeye permanently in the Shadesmar? This seams to be a big problem. Bringing bonded blade would not made you break the bond or anything, you leave with bonded blade. Can you even unbond the blade as there is no blade nor gem in CR ? Does bringing unbonded blade and leaving Deadeye behind prevent it from going back with you to Roshar? Seems ok to me. So your theory could work, I think.
But I think both of our theories are dead on arrival, as this WoB suggest that there are no hundreds missing Shardblade, and they are lost because of weather
QuoteJofwu
It seems that deadeyes can wander Shadesmar freely, but when summoned as a Shardblade and subsequently dismissed, they end up at the location in Shadesmar corresponding to the location of the Shardbearer. How does this work for deadeyes who are cared for by a loved one, like Captain Ico?
Brandon Sanderson
They would vanish if their Shardblade were summoned.
Adam Horne
But it's been a while since that's happened, so it's not as much of a concern?
Brandon Sanderson
You can assume that there are more deadeyes wandering Shadesmar whose Shardblades have been lost, than there are ones that the Shardblades are kept. Probably about an equal number, I would say, 50/50. Though I would have to really crunch those numbers. I'd say that across 5000 years-ish... not quite, but you know. That a lot of those weapons, even though they are powerful and things like that, are gonna get lost. Ships are gonna get sunk; things get covered over with crem on Roshar; people go up to cross mountain passes to go attack, and they end up freezing and dying. And I think that over the years, there's been a ton of those that have been lost.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)So around 100 of Shardblades are known, 100 are lost in crem and seas - that doen't add up to 300 left at Feverstone Keep, and to even bigger number of 2000 dead Honorsprens, not to mention all other sprens like Cultivationsprens. Most likely is that most of the Shardblades left behind disappear from physical Roshar into Shadesmar and only around 200 of them are still left as blades, 100 of them are known. So no secret assassin guild in Shadesmar, no secret cache of blades in Shinovar.
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On 8.08.2022 at 3:08 AM, rosharian_cat said:
Also, about the Stormfather/Stormfaker telling him that a demand was almost the Words: I thought that was odd as well.
I think that it was the very first words Gavilar said with true intent behind them. He really needs it and wanted to have it, whatever it is. All previous attempts were just guesses without actually meaning the words. Even later the Stormfather said that "It's not the words that matter". However I'm not so sure if SF wants to be bonded to Gavilar or it's about creating new Herald or maybe even something completely different.
21 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:In OB ch. 84 Queen Aesudan told Kaladin and Eholokar that Gavilar found an "ancient spren", but never bonded it. It was when she was bragging about how she swallowed the gemstone with Yelig-nar in it and found 2 other Unmade. So I guess he had like a proto-bond, he hadn't gotten to the first ideal yet.
I totally forget about that, when I was reading this prologue, as there was no sign or mention of said Unmade. I wonder if it will change on premiere or it will be important later in the book at all.
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16 hours ago, Kolten said:
Have we ever seen if spren behave differently when bonded to different people? I wonder if the human involved in the bonding can effect the personality of the spren in some ways. Not really change who they are, but maybe make them tend to think along the same lines as the human they bond to.
That's good idea. We've never seen sprens interacting with multiple radiants of their own, so it could be a possibility.
4 hours ago, BinarySecond said:Do we have a timeline for when Ishar reclaimed his Honour Blade? Could he have highjacked the process using a bond?
I've checked that out, posted it in "The Stormfaker isn't a Cracktheory" and Ishar couldn't have had the Honorblade when Gavilar was alive. Here it is:
SpoilerNext when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere within last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar.
Overall I think that lying Stormfather keeping secrets from Dalinar about his brother would be much bigger deal to Dalinar and be an interesting twist to their relations than any twist with Ishar or other Stormfaker.
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Yup, there is something weird going on with that Stormfather, and good job on catching that. To be fair, Stormfather show himself to Dalinar in form of shimmering in the air few times as well, iirc one of that was in the Aharietiam vision with Navani. As mentioned earlier, the most prominent and well made theory is that it is Ishar manipulating Gavilar, but other names are also appearing as valid Stormfakers candidates like Tanavast Cognitive Shadow, Odium, Cultivation, spren of Everstorm or Unmades etc. But also there is a socond camp, to which I also belong, that there is no Stormfaker, and all discrepancies can be the result of Stormfather lying to Gavilar and Dalinar, his trust issues after failure with Gavilar, Stormfather changing over time, or even his hidden agendas. If you want to know more about this, I highly encourage you to check out these two forum topics in Cosmere Discussion, possible spoilers to all Cosmere books.
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I also think that Cultivation does not gives curses, as all known affected by her wished for someting more than physical, something more spiritual. It may at first appear to be typical boon and curse but it isn't and it masks her involvement. Sometimes you need to cut sides of the bush to make it grow in the right direction. Dalinar would not only never had his wish granted if he retained memory of Evi but he would also never grew to be a better person. The same goes for Taravangian, he would never ascended if he had both intelligence and compassion at the same time.
For Lift I think that Cultivation made her a little like a Returned. She connected her own self-perception to the way how she looks like, and gives her ability to create Life Light so she can heal and change her body to that image, what as a side effect gives her more presence in CR. As long as Lift perceives herself as 10 year old girl, she would remain that 10 year old girl. But as she journeys through the life and experiences more and more, her self-perception matures, so she matures as well.
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Scadrial vs. Roshar post Lost metal.
in Cosmere Discussion
Posted
Hi guys, I'm back, did you miss me?
Almighty save me...
Frequencies can be changed, messages can be coded, and Roshar can't use Radios without electricity.
But they are not in a war, but in trade relations. Elendel open sirspace to them. So no, it isn't, it's just show of force.
Because there is little plated Radiants and tasks must be done?
With war time industry focus, where factories will switch produstions to war equipment, they won't. Ammunition can be made quickly in huge numbers.
1. no? and you think people would like to stay in home when invading alien army is incoming? With proper propaganda they would gladly burn even forests. It's no problem.
2. You right, but regular soldiers mostly are. And only Windrunners can fly, so for them it would take a lot of effort to coortinate large scale operation with other orders in range of AA guns. Glowing in air is easy to spot. Using CR is also an option. So it would be hard, but Scadrial has big railway connections to quickly react and transfer troops.
Yes, but that's slower, and that is my point.
Ok, I will take your word on that.
His spren denied him 4th ideal I think, from the conversation they had. But even you must admit, that Szeth is a special case, There won't be many like him.
I'm being nitpicking here, but you can have more than one conversation in a day
Behind a boat fully underwater? I guess you can, but the water resistance is 1000 times bigger so it would be much slower than in the air for Windrunners. Edgedancers could, but they would have to swim, so it would be extreamy slow. And how would they found it? So how many orders do you already include in that endeavor, it soon ended with everyone searching for big crystals and not fighting. You have to count pressure, darkness, vastnes of the oceans, and structures on the bottom. And if it was doable Fused would already recover Thrill.
And she herself says that Maya's words are much worst than what they thought previously.
10 millon in heavly Industrial society vs 100/2 million (not all of Roshar) in medieval one. Not to mention 10 million are already on Scadrial, Rosharians are not.
What bombs? TNT, grenades and artillery shells - yes, H-T bomb - no. It's urban warfare so there would be explosions in urban area. That's why you evacuate population or make sure they safe in predesignated places.
When the police is hunting that secret organisation for sinking ships, because the governor don't want to take a blame for sinking some rich guy's ships? How that geting lost in crowed worked for Set? Tbf I also believe they might be Skybreakers, but I acknowledge there might be other, simpler explanation.
By hearing about Tukari in CR, or hearing news? He have his ways to be on time with news.
Aluminum doesn't have to touch a gem to have an effect - Kholinar's aluminum rook doesn't allow spanread to work - the sheer presence of aluminum might change the effects of fabrials. Using aluminum with fabrials is still a novelty. But I admitt, I'm not good at fabrials.
Whatever it is that would steal the Nahel Bond - both would work I think? Duralumin for sure as it steals connection. Aluminum would steal Radiant powers so bond would be still there and they would be able to heal? With aluminum you could steal healing powers, so no healing for Radiants. Did I get that right? Or nicrosil to steal Stormlight if they don't have any more - no healing. Dead Radiant in all cases.
Yeah, use horses or that man-power little rail vehicle. With a lot of people involved, and devided in teams each responsible for some part of the traks, and with already existing train signals to warn incoming trains, it is doable. They can also run weak current through likeevery 1 km, with detector at the end, to check if the rail is intact. Or have observation and lookout posts for glowing man in the sky.
Counter by leacher grenades and, when it's spoiling/getting hungry to fast they would notice, invastigate and discover what it was - they could then counter that easily with more leacher grenades or changing storages on regular basis. And illusions won't give you the understanding of language and customs, guard's won't let anyone unauthorised into the storage, and suspicious activities will be noticeable.
I don't know, maybe it's because several dozens light years away?
Yes, but that was about whole planet, not investiture density in a gem. Comparing metalminds to sharplates in not giving us anything to deduce how much investiture is in a gem. On Roshar you got Highstorms being High investiture, on Scadrial there is no such a thing.
And I'm sure that the Windrunners (mostly former slaves) would be very pleased to use gems with Honorsprens or other sapient sprens (slavery of sapient sprens) in them. That's totally aligned with thier second oath. No problem at all.
Twice as powerful as cesium at what? Are estimating H-T reaction which is fission or H-water reaction which is pure chemical? And how does H-T fission work? It's not easily scalable to tell just 10 or 100 time more, esspecialy when Harmonium-water reaction is chemical, so not proportionate to fission/fusion one. There are no neutrons released (most likely, we don't know if harmornium or trellium are radioactive, or if one of them is "neutron generator", but no one describe them as hot or burning, and no on got radiation poisoning so no?), I would think that the fission is made by pure nuclar forces, not neutrons splitting atoms (as there is no moderator or neutron reflector placed to make explosion), therefore acting on all atoms at given rage, drastically increasing fission efficiency, compare to regular earthly fission. Or there can be something else going on, like Harmonium spliting up into Atium and Lerasium, and then immediately those two atoms combines back into Harmonium again with fusion reaction - which would make it work like a real thermonuclear bomb, explainig yield. Biggest non-fusion, pure fission, bomb had yield of 500kT, so Harmonium-Trellium reaction migh be a fussion one, to explain the yield.
We don't know anything about god's metals, we need Cosmere periodic table with properties of god's metals etc, to properly understand how it word. We need Brandon to show us the math!
I'm literally writing this in every post, most Harmonium is coming from 6 year long trade exchange with Malwish, some little amounts are form Set - leftovers from tests, or remember there were two factions inside Set, they might heve its own separate little pile of Harmonium. Just a little.
Yes, but right after it Sazed was accurately predicting what can be done to stop the bomb and what results it would give. And I give you better estimates not involving Sazed.
Oh yeah, me to, I want to see math, numbers and everything!
They got Harmonium somehow after BoM (I don't know either, the downed Malwish ship from BoM where Allik and Telsin were?), and they made bomb to fit it in rocket first. So the very likely make it big enough to destroy Elendel, but not too crazy big, as they wanted to fit in rocket, which they failed. I'm not talking about huge pile of Harmonium, most of it Basin would get from trade, small amounts from Set.
It would be a pain in the back, but manageable, and damaged train rails would be reusable, so not that big of an waste.
And it will be troublesome for Windrunners as they are all for protection of innocent, and not for endangering innocent, unarmed civilians with their actions. They might not want to do it, knowing they might cause death. And large scale attacks of Windrunners are aimed at army, not civilians. Even in RoW, Windrunners don't want to fight with regular Listeners. It's not about choice, it's about results of thier actions - Dalinar did choose to fight at the Tower, Elhokar did choose to remain the king - yet they still became those who cannot protect themself.
But Set did made rockets that worked and could carry warheads, but not big enough. They didn't have time to make bigger rocket as Authonomy gave them deadline. The Set could not scale down bomb, as they couldn't - they wanted whole Elendel gone, and that was the power required to do it. They didn't have time to make rockets bigger to fit that bomb, they already made. So Set made it somehow, it worked, Scadrial have it now.
Dalinar have to open perpendicularity few times during single battle. Now you got much more soldiers and supplies, more Radiants - he would have to do it more offten. Moving him around would be good idea, but logistical nightmare. And still he would be vulnerable in that time, and easily to locate.
Yes, it is. Or by forcing them to constatnly heal with heavy gunfire, artillery fire, AA fire, TNT-in-the-face fire, crushing them with heavy things one after another etc. They CAN be killed, and that's the whole point. Scadrial relies heavily on regular soldiers, and Roshar soly on Radiants, which there are not many - you make Radiants suffer heavy casualties, you win.