alder24

Wow, I'm impressed @teknopathetic. It's very well thought and well argumented theory. I like it. Yet it's still not enough for me. I can see holes in it, so let's point them. I've already done a little analysis of Stormfather conversation with Gavilar and how much he actually lied in Prologue discussion, after all Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it. Here is the link to it: 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/?do=findComment&comment=1332580

 

Now let's begin:

I. Ishar's insanity

We don't know anything certain about Ishar before we meet him in RoW. Every piece of information before was given to us by unstable and mad Heralds, mostly Nale and Ash. But they're definitely unreliable source as they're all claiming Ishar is still sane, and each of them adds themselves as sane one too. Nale particularly, after WoR went to Ishar, believing him, went back to hunting in Edgedancer, believing he and Ishar are only sane one, then Everstorm came, he went back to Ishar in OB (said in one of Szeth chapter) still believing in Ishar's wisdom - at that point it was years after assassination of Gavilar and Ishar was established mad by Stormfather in OB "cursing him at night" - Nale did not recognize that maddens in any of their meetings. We don't know when Ash and Kalak visit him last time. Ishar was always respected by all Heralds, recognized as wise and reliable, was guiding them - he created Oathpact, and he came up with idea to abandon it, he gave the idea to Nale to hunt Radients, which has no sense since Radients had been present for thousands of years after Last Desolation and did not cause much trouble (not enough information about False Desolation to include this, all points to BAM spontaneously connection to all Singers without involvement of Radients) - this idea already speaks about Ishar's madness. We cannot rely on Heralds words about Ishar, as they're all mad and believe in their own sanity, and part of their maddens might manifest as extreme believe in Ishar's wisdom and sanity even if there are visible proofs contradicting this. Except for Heralds testimony, we literally have no other source of information about Ishar's sanity before Dalinar actually met him in RoW, at that point he's clearly mad and even earlier in OB when Dalinar received message from him it was also showing Ishar's madness. There is simply no other source of information about Ishar at all, so we don't know when and how his insanity begun - ordering killing all Radients points for dozens of years befor Gavilar assassination.

 

II. Honorblade

Next when did he actually reclaimed his Honorblade? For this theory to works it has to be years before Gavilar assassination, 7-8 years before RoW. But Ishar's words about this points to much later time - last year before RoW. He said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing for presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places arrival of Unmades somewhere in last year before begining of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. Not before Gavilar assassination but long after it. Without it, Ishar would be unable to highjack visions and talk to Gavilar.  

 

III. Oathpact

And still there is his connection to Oathpact like you suggest. However in Dalinar's encounter with Nale he saw only one strong connection between Nale and other Herald - and who was the one remaining loyal to Oathpact for last 4500 years, who alone carried it, was being tortured and was denying the Return through all this years, who alone didn't abandon Oathpact - Taln. That strong line is most likely Taln's one, as he is the only one still connected strongly to Oathpact and did not abandoned it like others did. No other line was shown to be a little stronger that other ones. And also, still no proof for Ishar's ability to feel other Herald death - in Prelude Jezrien said they weren't sure if Kalek survived - that includes Ishar, Kalek also was surprised by the view of the Honorblades sticked into the ground and for a moment thought if all others had felt, he didn't feel Taln death, nor others "being alive". And at that point all of them were still strongly connected to Oathpact and each other - if they could not feel it at that time, then Ishar would not be able to feel it 4500 years later when his connection to Oathpact was almost broken. And without his Honorblade. 

 

IV. Stormfather

Remember, Stormfather is not a regular spren, he's Bondsmith spren, he has full mind capabilities in physical realm without bond, bond changed him but even before bond he was capable of expressing mercy for Eshonai. Even beyond that, he holds the biggest remaining piece of Honor - that changed him, he is not just a spren, he is probably the second most powerful entity on Roshar, only Shards are more powerful than him. His more powerful than Sibling and Nightwatcher. He also creates new Honorsprens. And we know that Oathpact was a vow between Heralds and Honor. If anyone would be able to detect Herald death, it would be Stormfather through Honor's pieces within him. 

 

 

Now let's address your points:

1). Foreshadowing - "We have hints dropped that Ishar was lying about the Surgebinders returning" - either he was lying either he truly believed in his insanity that it was the only option. See point I. above.

 

2). On Gavilar's Inconsistent View on Human Mannerisms - I agree something is itchy here, but it's something that Stormfather is doing also with Dalinar and even Kaladin - OB when Kaladin opposed winds to protect people despite Stormfather unwillingness to spare them, he later guide Kaladin to the Tower as an "apology". With Dalinar we often see SF acting like a an angry storm-child and few moments later expressing complicated human emotions. 

 

3). On the Insanity of Heralds - see point I. above. "There is no reason to think the Stormfather would consider any of the Heralds sane." - SF has no idea at that point in time about Taln current state, thus he cannot claim if he's insane. Moreover SF told Dalinar that he can't see any Herald so would likely have some trouble in finding them to evaluate their sanity. 

 

4). On Immortality - SF lives as long as Heralds and even longer. He had multiple Bondsmiths, and saw death of everyone of them. He lived through Recreance and saw his beloved children dieing - which scared him so much that he refused to create new generation of Honorsprens for centuries. Moreover SF is not some unbonded spren like Syl in the beginning of WoF. See point IV.

 

5). On the Ten Fools Motif - Ten Fools expression is commonly used metaphor in Voring culture and probably even in entire Roshar. It's no surprising that even SF would use it as "The biggest fool of them all" might as well refer to Ten Fools that was just mention - "The biggest fool of the Ten Fools". SF realized how much he was mistaken, how much he miscalculated with Gavilar and maybe even like I written in my post about SA prologue 5 - how his plans to replaced Heralds to avoid Desolation and Sprens bonding with humans just fall apart with Herald death. 

 

6). On The Font Change - can we really take that point from pre alpha release? It might got re-edited. But we don't know the full nature of connection between SF and Gavilar, SF is fully capable of speaking to Dalinar without the bond outside Highstorms (battle of Narak and top of the Tower WoR). We've seen SF talking to Dalinar with bond in OB with caps and italics. SF also manifest as shimmering to Dalinar few times. 

"The shimmer is "sometimes" and not usually. So to me, the shimmer is the Stormfather and the invisible is Ishar. " - Herald death and "biggest fool" was spoken from shimmering so you contradicting yourself here. 

SF mention Dalinar's potential in italics - which would be definitely real SF words. Well actually his entire conversation with Gavilar was spoken in italics and only two sentences were in caps "Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it." and "Your legacy." - however I'm looking at this at wob.coppermind and there is no caps at all, just non-italics sentence hard to see. If you could provide me with source of your transcript I would be grateful (probably newsletter which I should have). Anyway Gavilar and SF might have just stronger connection without Radient bond. 

"But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know." - on the speaking pattern how do you explain dots before "...Herald" - it gives impression that SF is not so sure about that word, or maybe is he using advance speaking method called lying? Or he truly wanted to restore Heralds to prevent humans from bonding Sprens. 

Also the Stormfather way of speaking doesn't fits Ishar at all, even sane-one, but we have only one paragraph of this so not enough to compare. 

 

7). On the Personality - missing rumbling is valid point. However all other is still consistent with our SF. Most of quoted sentences I already analysed in other discussion linked above. And our SF and Gavilar's SF is still willing to withhold information - "Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities." and also to share them when appropriately asked.

 

8). On the Visions - see my point II. above. - "And the thing that has miscalculated", "This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought...your family...", "I will never trust your family again. I made that mistake once. I will not do so again." - all of this explains the differences between Dalinar and SF relations and Gavilar and SF. SF tried different approach with Dalinar which would not make him lazy, avoiding religion, and avoiding speaking with Dalinar entirely. Dalinar gets on his one to not nesesery correct conclusion but it made him work for it.

 

"These visions are famously easy to hijack." - connection, it requires strong connection! Lift has strong connection with Gawx, Odium with Dalinar, Dalinar with Navani and Jasnah, and SF established connection with Fen, Gawx and Venli during Highstorms, during which Lift appeared. Not to mention Dalinar and Nahodon connection which could allow this weird dream-like-vision. For Ishar to be able to do it, he would need to establish connection with Gavilar, and we have no proof that they had ever met before - knowing how bad is Gavilar at recognizing Heralds it's both point for and against as we've never seen any Ishar lookalike near Gavilar at any point. And there is the problem with Honorblade - see again point II. above.

 

9). Sensing a Herald Die - point III and IV - you provide no evidence for it, which for me is the theory breaking point. SF was not part of Oathpact but Honor was, and now SF holds the biggest remains of Honor, which indirectly makes him connected to Oathpact. 

"there is no mention of the Stormfather reacting to the True-Death of Jezrian" - as there was no Dalinar's POW during that, we can't use that as argument. 

"If we take our in-text evidence, the Stormfather is in no-way connected to the Heralds" - but there is in-text evidence that SF have some connection at least to Ishar - "I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god." 

We also don't know anything about Ishar's Ashyn-Bondsmith abilities, how similar they were to Rosharian, if he still had them on Roshar and what he could achieve with them. 

"Dalinar sees the lines of connection emanating out of Ishar that represent the Oathpact even though Brandon has said the Oathpact is finished. We don't see Dalinar describe Taln or Shallash with bonds eminating out which I find odd." - your mistake, it wasn't Ishar, it was Nale during battle with Taravangian's forces. Dalinara did something special there and connected himself with Nale. See point III.

 

10). On Motivation to Make a New Herald - I've already explained how SF could be motivated to create new Heralds to prevent Desolation and most importantly prevent Sprens from bonding with humans. Don't forget that he hates that idea so much that he was willing to kill Kaladin, do everything to stop Syl from returning to Kal after they "break-up" and even kill everyone during battle of Narak, also at first didn't want to accept Dalinar's oaths - he quickly changed his mind. However with Chana death this plan had no future and was a failure - all that left was to gave visions to someone else and prepare for restoration of Radients. There is nothing that would stop Desolation from coming. He just gave up - as it was stated multiple times in books. And because of that he would never mention about this to anyone, as he never mention to Dalinar about giving visions to Gavilar at all, so why mention failed attempt to prevent Desolation and with that Gavilar's flaws?

"Ishar, tells Dalinar directly that Ishar wants to reforge the Oathpact." - not wants, but know how to do it. That's is a big difference and it was preceded by "I know the answers to the problems that torment us". Dalinar asked only for help in retaking Urithiru.

"Ishar started his Tu'kar Godking madness almost exactly when Gavilar and Chana died, so we have a timeline of motivation and sanity changes that fits perfectly. " - timeline fits well, I admitt it, I like that about this theory but we know nothing about Ishar's sanity, even Nale belives that Ishar is still perfectly sane in OB, and Ash in WoR - we know at that point Ishar was already insane. They're not reliable, see point I. above. 

"Ishar ahs also sworn never to work with a Kolin again" - yet he invited Dalinar to Shinovar to work with him. You're once again contradicting yourself.

Only Kalak wants to desperately get out of Roshar, no one else. Nale works with Odium now, Ishar on the other hand want to die or kill everyone - "He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man." - which would be a point for you.

"Why would the Stormfather both be trying to make new Heralds AND destroy the biggest army capable of resisting the Voidbringers?" - it was explained in text, Stormfather had given up upon humanity and didn't believe they stood a chance against Odium. He only gave visions to Dalinar because he was obligated to do it by Honor but wasn't obligated to bond anyone. 

 

11). On Tu'kar - most of this is huge unknown to us. We don't know exactly when Ishar became Tukar's leader. He started the war with Emul the same year Gavilar died, but to do so, he would had to already be in position of power. We don't know also what was his previous behavior, and how was he invested in Roshar's affairs after Last Desolation. We know Heralds intervened before, like during BAM, and shattering Stormseat. And Ishar already ordered killing Radients - which is crazy on it's own.

"And as for Ishar's insanity, who knows what the death of a Herald, be it Chana or the true death of Jezrian, might do to the person who forged the Oathpact. We simply don't know what that might cause to his sanity." - Ishar's response to Dalinar in OB already clearly shows his insanity before Jezrien death, also SF words about him, and if death of Herald increases his insanity, by the time of Last Desolation he would already be insanely insane.

 

Btw Gavilar assassination happen in month of Ishi - point for you to include. Other one is in my other post linked above about SF in OB when he said that Taln finnaly had broken - despite feeling Heard death in SA5 prologue - which means that either SF lied to Dalinar about Taln, or it was not him that had felt Herald death in Prologue 5. 

 

 

Oh boy, that was a lot to write. I've enjoyed it nonetheless. No matter if SF wanted to restore Heralds or just simply lied, his character in Prologue 5 is still consistent with SF we knew from SA 1-4. Sprens can change no matter how hard they're denying it - Notum, Phendorana, and even Sibling are the best examples. 

Personally I still don't think it's not Stormfather, and if it's not him Cultivation seems also like a good choice but it's definitely more of a stretch. With your argumentation Ishar also is more probable. I will definitely remain interested in this theory. With your Chana Davar theory at first I liked it a lot, but I've seen it as highly unlikely, so despite my liking it I was more neutral and sceptical. Well it has changed since Prologue 5 release. 

 

One more thing, me saying that "Stormfather might want to restore Heralds" is not really a valid counterargument for your theory, it's just me expressing my thoughts on Gavilar's SF and how he's different form Dalinar's Stormfather.

On 8.05.2022 at 1:03 AM, Returned said:

This is a good question.

We know from Navani's research that knowledge of how to use a gemstone to bond a Blade came some time after the Recreance, and as far as we know it's the gemstone-driven bonding of a Blade that causes it to appear next to the corpse of its (former) wielder. So I don't think that Testament would definitely appear next to Shallan if she were to die because her bond to Testament is direct, not just some person holding an arbitrary Blade with an attached gemstone. She certainly didn't keep Testament with her for the requisite period to bond a dead Blade.

I also think it's more likely (though I wouldn't say it's definitive, given how unreliable a narrator Shallan has been) that her Soulcasting of the goblet to blood was from her developing relationship with Pattern rather than a lingering effect of her broken bond with Testament. It's also possible that Shallan was Surgebinding without a bonded spren, which seems possible (though we know nothing about it).

As for the Recreance, my impression was that the summoning of Blades and driving them into the ground was more  of a dramatic, symbolic statement, and not necessarily how every Radiant rejecting their oaths would have done it. The Radiants summoned their spren as Blades, then broke their bonds as they walked away from the keep. This left the bodies of the spren manifested in the physical realm rather than the cognitive, so they wouldn't be manifesting in Shadesmar as deadeyes at that time. Between the Recreance and the discovery of attaching gemstones to Blades they would be much harder to keep track of, and harder to even keep on hand (they're so unwieldy and obvious when carried!). For example, look how long it took to find Oathbringer after Sadeas' death.

Shadesmar itself is huge and mostly covered by the bead ocean, where we know many deadeyes spend a fair amount of time. We also know that spren can be hurt and even killed, so maybe some of them were destroyed by dangerous spren (like angerspren) while unable to defend themselves. So I don't know that we can say there are too few of them there. And a spren whose bond was broken while in Shadesmar might never physically manifest, given how hard it was to get to and from the realm after the Recreance.

 

So in summary I don't think that it's all that suspicious that there are so few Blades known on Roshar, and so few observed deadeyes in Shadesmar. Of the remaining physical Blades, many may just be lost in the physical world. Many are known to still be around and are in active use. Some are probably in the hands of the Skybreakers (they may not use them themselves, but Helaran's Blade came from somewhere, and was given to him by the Skybreakers). I think that it's a good guess that at least some are in Shinovar, though I am not convinced that it's as many as you suggest or for the reasons you suggest.

Good point about gems and Shallan. However adding gem to Shardblade allows creating bond between wielder and sword, bond that Shallan and Testament might already have due to their specific circumstances.

Deadeyes can be hunted by Angersprens but their attracted by anger and Deadeyes don't really seems to feel a lot of anything (except pain?). It is possible but we don't really know how Angersprens hunt, what it means and what it means for Sprens to be hurt that much - can Deadeyes be hurt even more than they already are?

RoW chapter 75 - Adolin - it is noticed that Deadeyes are staying at the shore, that they "come from the deeps", and Honorspren Vaiu said "they should be wandering through the oceans" - it rough translation from my Polish version, I don't know how it's exactly written in English. But this suggest that Deadeyes can wander through bead Ocean, it' hard probably but they don't have to breath after all. Knowing how interesting Adolin's trial is for Deadeyes, and how many Sprens died during Recreance why there isn't more of them showing at the keep? Maybe most of them don't care, or are to far away, or are physically kept somewhere else? But Shadesmar is almost as big as Roshar, traveling through it even by bout takes long time, not to mention by foot, so it not that hard to fit thousands of Deadeyes there, most probably in bead Ocean, which is simple and fitting answer why we don't see more of them at Adolin's trial. However if most Deadeyes are not bond to human they don't even have to travel, they could have just stayed in one place for thousands of years.

I forgot about Skybreakers, they probably have few of them, but they don't really need them that much, so probably don't have all 200 of them. 

 

On 8.05.2022 at 2:02 AM, earthexile said:

Anything that lies outside for a couple days gets eaten by the world. Blown away by storms, buried in cremstone. Over thousands of years, a lot of Shards have probably just wound up in the ground or the ocean. Stuff happens. Say your group gets caught in a highstorm or your ship sinks, that's it for any Shards.

Knowing how priceless Shardblades are and were even during Recreance, and that most Shardbearers become/are rich landowners, it's hard to imagine that they would allow themselves to be catch in Highstorm and even if this happens, someone would be searching for them and their Shards after they went missing for few days. Everyone would lost their mind knowing that there might be Shardblade just laying around - Shard rush! It would probably take more that one Highstorm to cover sword in to indistinguishable cream - much more then one. Highstorm wouldn't probably carry a Shardblade away with winds - it's slim and it can easily stuck in ground and be fully resistant to winds. But I definitely agree that some Shards were lost in Highstorms and even more in the Ocean but to lose all 200 Shardblades there (or more if Feverstone Keep was not isolated event which I doubt) is too much of a stretch. There still should be more that 100 Shardblades somewhere hidden by someone.

Unless you can definitely prove me that Ishar could have felt another Herald death (going to Braize death), I won't believe it's him despite having good motivation. In Prelude Kalak did not feel Taln death, and everyone wasn't sure if Kalak is alive, even Ishar, that means Heralds can't feel each other death. Not to mention his mental unstableness for which there is no prove that it is only recently gained, other Heralds words aren't that much trustworthy, knowing how much unstable they are - they might just want to believe that he is still sane.

But Cultivation on the other hand... Gavilar death put everything in motion, sending Dalinar and Taravangian straight to her, and sending Listeners into Oidum's grasp.

But still even if it sounds nice, I believe it is the real Stormfather all along, Sprens can change, he was manifesting to Dalinar as shimmering, he can lie (despite he did not do it almost through the entire prologue), he can lie by omission (like he ever told something important to Dalinar so willingly), and his motive is a even better for making new Herald - preventing his precious Sprens from bonding with humans and risking their life, and he holds the biggest pieces of Honor. Just fits everything. 

I'm still liking the Stormfaker theory though.

Quote

 

There looked to be a good two hundred Shardbearers out there. Alethkar owned some twenty Blades, Jah Keved a similar number. If one added up all the rest in the world, there  might be enough total to equal the two powerful Vorin kingdoms. That meant, so far as he knew, there were less than a hundred Blades in all of the world. And here he saw two hundred Shardbearers gathered in one army. It was mind-numbing.

Soon, there were some three hundred Radiants out on the field.

 

From Way of Kings chapter 52 - Dalinar's vision of Recreance at Feverstone Keep

 

So, where are all those deadeye Shardblades? At Feverstone Keep there was 300 Shardblades left by Radiants. But at the present times less then 100 are known, with some hidden one let's say 100 are accounted for.
But during False Desolation thousands of Sprens answered the call and went to war bonding with humans. 2000 Honorsprens alone, potentially several thousands more of other Sprens. Where are all those Shardblades? At minimum there should be 200 more, at maximum thousands all scattered around Roshar. But only 100 are known. First let's establish correct number of how many Shardblades should be found. I think of 2 different approach to this:

1). Event at Feverstone Keep was in isolation and it was the only instance of Radiants leaving behind blades and armor. That means there is only 200 missing blades, much more reasonable number, potentially easy to "hide". All other Radients broke their bonds "silently" without Sprens materializing as blades, leaving only Deadeyes in Shadesmar. Exactly the same way as Shallan, she broke her bond with Testament's physical form not as a blade in hand, no Testament-shardblade materialized in that place as far as we know. 
But there is a catch. Shallan is still bonded with Testament as a Shardblade and was using it, and maybe even some parts of Nahel Bond remain allowing her accessing surgebinding (she's confirming it at the end of RoW). I can only assume, that if Shallan dies, Testament would materialized next to her body as a blade. Moreover no gem is placed in that blade like in other shardblades.
So if all other Radients broke thier bonds the same way as Shallan, would it means that some remains of Nahel Bond were still present with them? Wouldn't it also resulted in leaving shardblades when they died? 
A solutions to it - it is also required for Sprens to break their bonds with humans the same way as Radients did it. At Recreance it happened both way, as Maya said they had chosen it. That way the bond is broken completely on both side, and resulted in Deadeyes left unbounded in Shadesmar. Shallan did not fully break her bond with Testament, as Testament did not do it. Shallan later begins reinforcing her bond with Testament with small steps, only so much to allow her some access to her powers and blade and maybe even starting to replace broken truth/oaths with new one (Soulcasting goblet to blood?). If this is not the case, then let's think about next approach.

2). All Radients broke their bonds the same way, leaving shards behind them, like in Feverstone Keep, or the way Shallan broke her bond is the same way Radients had done it before, and as they later died, shardblades materialized next to them. That would mean there should be thousands of shardblades left around. This fact alone makes me feel that this was not the case and I'm in favor of first approach as it also explains how to properly break Nahel Bond. 

But I think there might be another problem. Where are all the Deadeyes in Shadesmar? We have seen a few of them here and there, they are common enough to be seen during our heroes visit in Shadesmar. The biggest number of them we've seen is during Adolin trial in Honorsprens Fortress, days before it began Adolin witnessed 200 of them gathering outside of Lasting Integrity, and 20 dead Honorsprens already kept inside, possibly few more of other types. It is also highly probable that even more Deadeyes gathered till the day of trial, few dozens or maybe hundreds more, but not in thousands as that would probably be mentioned by someone. 100 of accounted Shardblades would probably not be present there as they would have been constantly summoned by their owners during Desolation time, so most of them were probably non-owned - number close to our missing 200, when Adolin saw them, be not even close to thousands of Deadeyes there should be. Is that enough of them in Shadesmar to add up to true number of Deadeyes? We don't know it. If it is, then vast majority of them did not care about trial or was too far away to get there on time. If not assuming almost every deadeye wanted to witness trial, but they could not get there - something/someone could restrict their movement, or they may exist only in form of blades in physical realm.

So where could all of those Shardblades and Deadeyes be? Somewhere on Roshar, as carrying them out would be too hard and in last thousands of years since Recreance we would have seen them in another words. So let's think of a place suitable for hiding all of that treasure, isolated from most of the world, place with good protection form weather and unwanted eyes, guards that may know how to use them, people already in possession of similar but much rarer and more powerful Shardblades, people with abilities to collect all of them form all over the world, people that might even use them in the past in failed attempts to conquer Roshar, people who probably use one of them to replace a newly appeared Honorblade to a Shardblade. 

Yes of course I'm talking about Shinovar! They all probably in Shinovar as no other place would be as good as that. Shins don't respect warriors and treat them as slaves - which is perfect if you don't want to lose all of your Shardblades and keep bigger treasure safe - Honorblades. It also helps preventing someone from fighting with another Shardbearer as they all have to obey their master command. And we know Shins tried several times to invide rest of the Roshar - nation that doesn't even have a city (we don't know of any, no city is marked on the map or even mentioned) was capable of launching invasions that left deep scars in history - how? With Shardblades, and Honorblades and cavalry too! Or maybe all these invasions were just so Shins could gather every Shards they could? That's what Shardblades somehow disappeared?

Depending on how Radients broke their bonds, it would mean that Shins are in possession of at minimum 200 Shardblades or at maximum thousands of them! If it's the latter, Shardblades may be kept in physical form rather than bonded to thousands of warriors - that would also explain relatively small number of Deadeyes in Shadesmar. Or maybe just imagine for fun, that only few Shins are bonded to thousands of Shardblades each - that would lead to very "funny" situation when if one of them dies of heart attack, suddenly all of his Shardblades would materialized next to him - I would not want to live in flat below his.

However I think there isn't that many Shardblades, as only around 300 was left, and rest are just Deadeyes wandering somewhere in Shadesmar as explained in point 1 above. That would leave only 200 blades in hands of Shins - reasonable amount, which explains their early success during failed invasions, without strong warrior culture (success as it was not forgotten since then so they have to conquered something before they were driven back). As Adolin mentioned, shardbearers can't hold conquered land, Shins were doomed to fail due to low number of warriors each time.

That would be another obstacle for coalition to obtain Shinovar and another one for Szeth, our favorite UnTruthless with our favorite Evil-Destroying-Friendly-Superweapon-Nimi. Not only he would have to deal with bearers of Honorblades but with hundreds of regular Shardbearers too. And reward also is increasing in this scenario, gaining 5 times more shards then currently in possession of coalition (40ish?) next to Honorblades which could be a significant help in war effort. Not to mention that those Shardblades might be soon back to life, bonded with new Radients as they return - or whatever is that what Adolin and Maya have. 

Or maybe all of this is not important as releasing BAM will fix everything so who cares where all of Shardblades and Deadeyes are right now? Well I care! It was fun theorising.

58 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

That’s the only problem with the theory,

but the herirocacy did falsify a lot of the data so maybe? 

I highly doubt it because of Listeners have records of this event and they place it before Last Desolation and before they move there to escape Odium.

Urithiru was also abandoned before Recreance happened, so before imprisonment of BAM. The Sibling also broke it's bond with Melishi before Recreance happened (no information how much time before it) and due it The Sibling did not become deadeye - which would be it's fate if it remained bonded during Recreance. Trapping BAM was probably main reason for Recreance as it ripped of part of Roshar's spirit web and affected all life there, it was probably felt not only by Sprens but also by their knights. 

And also Oathbringer spoilers 

 

There is a problem. Wasn't Stormseat destroy during Last Desolation or even earlier?

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormseat

Quote

At some point, Stormseat was destroyed by the same event that transformed the Natan interior into the Shattered Plains. There is some disagreement as to when this happened. Human sources place the destruction of Stormseat at Aharietiam, the last of the old Desolations. Listeners, however, put it significantly earlier, as according to their stories, by the time the Last Legion was sent into the area, the Shattered Plains already existed. Whichever is the case, humans blamed the destruction on the listener gods (either the Fused or the Unmade), though the Song of Wars is confident that this wasn't their doing.

That's also why Oathgate there was not closed before abandoning Urithiru - it was thought to be destroyed. Oathgates were also probably locked the moment the Tower was abandoned.

 

I think Shattered Plains were shattered by creating anti-frequency to Stormseat's Downcity frequency - that can be visualize with Cymatics. 

16 hours ago, Rune said:

Returned can’t be just a large amount of investiture as, yes investiture can become sentient, but Returned come back with the talents, skills, and some memories of who they were before so there is some connection with the original persons spirit, mind, and body to be able to retain the full aspect that they do, so they cannot just be investiture just commanded to do stuff-a personality, skill, and talent cannot simply be from a command, i.e. a person isn’t the result of a command.  It’s a good idea but I don’t think that that’s how investiture really works and interacts with existing persons.

Returned is the copy of person's soul made out of investiture and sticked up back to it's original body, commanded to do stuff, for example heal someone. All these skills and knowledge come from original soul and are copied, or they come from the body itself and are used by the new soul - they definitely don't come from command.

My point was depending on how you view Awakening, it can be either body commanded to do stuff or Breaths commanded to do it via body - both explanations are also working with Returned and even with storing memories in Breaths or altering your own memory. But only one is true . If it's the first option then Breaths can't be commanded to become metal sword, there needs to be physical sword as a medium, if it's the latter, somehow you can command them to manifest as a sword without needing one. 

 

Commanding Breaths directly to manifest as sword are one way of making Azure's sword, the other way is of course using better command then "destroy evil". Something not that abstract and active, something already familiar to a sword and maybe even more controllable. Something like "be my companion and bring death to my enemies at my will" could probably resulted in much sane, and safer sword, or even get rid of "be companion" which is abstract and replace it with "be sword" or "be sentient sword".

Personally I also believe that Nightblood was awaken with more than simple "destroy evil", and there was some advance command giving sentience before that - very similar to how creating lifeless is. 

Quote

“Awaken to my Breath,” he [Vasher] Commanded, “serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope.”

That new command may be nesesery to create type 4 entities. Something like "Awaken to my Breath, gain sentience and fullfil your Command". Commending to "destroy evil" as a complete command with visualisation of gaining sentience as a sword, what evil is, and what destroying it means may be just a bit too much to visualize at once. 

4 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

My assumption is that the way awakening works is that you command your breaths to do something, using the object as the medium by which they act on the world. 

I might be wrong but I imagine that Awakening works similar to Soulcasting - you command the obcjet's mind to do stuff and give it Breaths to extend that mind to the point it can understand and do it using Breaths as energy source. 

But your explanation also works - we can command Breaths alone, memory Command like you point out.

Returned are just bunch of investiture commanded to do stuff. Or body commanded to do stuff with immense power of investiture. Both can be true. 

But does it matter? Like @mdross81 said you could be able to command Breaths alone to change state to solid - similar to commanding Breaths to alter memory. 

It seems very plausible, I like that idea but how do you command Breaths only, and can they exist without that object/medium? The command is always given to an object which is powered by Breaths sticking to it's soul. When soul dies, Breaths are lost with it. Is it still Awakening if there is no physical object involved? 

We've never seen them doing something like that, just hanging out in the air, but that doesn't means they can't, just that nobody tried it before. Azure's Blade is definitely lv 4 awakened object, so how many Breaths would you need to give them sentience without medium? How do you separate Breaths from object? There are many problems with it, but it's kind of make sense.

I did not take any side. I feel bad for Singers, they are good and nice but that's it. They deserve own land or equal treatment for sure.

 

For me what happened thousands years ago doesn't matter - those people and Singers are dead except for 10 heralds and some fused. People and Singers doesn't even know what exactly happened. We don't know this! I want to know first when people from Ashlyn started to fight with Singers and why? When and why they switched gods? What were the gods thinking and planing? What happened on Ashlyn and how much Odium was part of it? There is too many questions and involvement of gods change everything. 

 

And it's not really a fitting comparison to colonisation when it's 10000 years after it and we don't know anything. I would call it mass migration - it forced native people out of thier land but there was no empire ruling over that land for resources from distance. But again, we don't know the whole truth. Without Odium and Fused current conflict turns into huge slave uprising which I would fully support, but with them Singers just change one abusive master to another. 

On 15.04.2022 at 0:38 AM, RedBlue said:

I mean, I figured that each Dawncity is associated with a frequency, but this begs the question. Why do specific physical locations have their own frequency? Is this a natural feature, or did someone make them like this? Why is the resonant frequency expressed by the rock?

It’s as though the rock was much more fluid (molten?) at some point, and a tone was played really really loudly, and then the rock froze in place. That’s what I would be thinking, if I were a scholar living on Roshar. But ... why? When? How? By whom? 

As for the Shattered Plains, it is implied (by one of the Listeners’ songs, if I recall correctly) that somebody did it. Who, why, and how? That’s unclear. It can’t be that somebody played two really loud tones that clashed, because that wouldn’t make the rock shatter. I guess somebody could have lobbed a lot of anti-light at the Plains, and the explosion shattered them, but then why would they have shattered in a perfectly symmetrical pattern?

I don’t expect anyone to have answers yet, since there’s not much to go on. That’s why I’m expecting this to come up in future books (probably the second sequence).

Venli use cohesion on rocks and it shaped into shapes, Singers that use songs to create stone tools, shape rock with voice. All of Roshar has it's own frequency, rocks as well. Downcities too, and when you play it's anti-frequency at the center of one od them loud enough, it would cancel out with city's frequency and shatterd along lines made by that frequency, or it would created "anti-downcity" like with creation od anti-light. Normal frequency and anti-frequency have opposite ups and downs. That would created the same pattern that the Downcity had and all of Downcities have symmetrical pattern. That's why Shatterd Plains are symmetrical. Few times it was said that "Shatterd Plains looks like something heavy was droped on the center of it" so the source of the shattering was probably in the center. 

On 5.04.2022 at 6:18 PM, RedBlue said:

What’s up with the Dawncities? Why do cities have those weird rock formations? Why do they look like resonant frequency patterns? Does this have to do with the formation of the Shattered Plains?

Well if every Downcity has it's own frequency then they have also anti-frequency. And that's how Shattered Plains were shattered. 

I like this discussion about SF vs SF which of course I've missed in prolog. I have to shamefully admit that Nightblood's appearance in WoR was a "cool easter egg" to me rather than mind breaking revealence - but I've learned since then thanks to you!

I'm more on the Stormfather side, it makes more sense to me, and his behavior is not that different from normal. Sprens can change. He still didn't want to share his knowledge, he didn't want to be commanded, shimmering did happen with Dalinnar as well. And did he really lied to Gavilar or did Gavillar assumed too much due to lack of answers? Even at the very beginning of the prolog SF says "That depends upon your definition of lies." 

1. SF first says about finding replacement for heralds - radiants could be that replacement, they unite, guide, lead and fight for humans like heralds before. Heralds however failed, broke their oaths, dooming Roshar. Or he truly wants to replace herald, because then KR would not be necessary and Sprens would not have to risk to be killed again. No matter what it is, it don't have to be a lie.
2. Talking about price of immortality may be just because Gavilar is do fixated on this - farfetched, maybe Stormfather have some plans to make new herald? Why can't he have plans on his own? Even if it's just a talk it's not a lie.
3. Gavilar thinks that there is only one place for new herald - because Stormfather hinted this but not said it streight - however Gavilar did not even knows the truth about Heralds, and thinks they all on Braize and Taln is the one acting against Oathpact. Clearly it is the wrong assumption.
4. Stormfather acceptance of Voidbringer's return - well he new it from the beginning, that's what the visions are for, that's what the visions says. He knows it is unavoidable
5. "You will need someone to fight, should you take the position I am offering you." - that's the tricky one, it could be true to bondsmith mission, but its weird like he will need enemy to shape him. Debatable
6. “Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” 
     "So close. And so far." 
It is close to the Words, but it's not words that matters but the intention behind it. This were Gavilar's first words with strong and true intention behind them. All of the previous ones were just words without intention. But it was still wrong intention, because it was selfish. So close and so far 
7. “Do you regret choosing me, Stormfather?”
The two answers given by SF were not contradictory. 
8. "I feel...you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find" 
"once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns."
Well this is the part that really gives Stormfaker vibes. He kind of openly says about becoming a Herald and that he decided to find Gavilar. But maybe after Recreance SF realise that he will not want to depend on radients like Honor wanted and risk lives of all of the Sprens once more and he'd made another plans, to replace Taln with new herald. It is still in character with Stormfather we know, in all of this prolog there was never even a word about bonding SF so it could be his own plan, not willing to trust humans like Honor wanted. His shock to Gavilar's statement about giving up immediately confirms this and stays true to SF character. But that could be just my speculations. 
9. "I see my miscalculation. Your entire religious upbringing" - SF could use religion to point Gavilar into right direcrion, help him to understand his role thanks to similarities, but it backfired terribly. Or at very lest SF could not correct Gavilar's wrong assumptions made because of religion. Speculations again. 
10. "You don’t understand, the Stormfather said. Those aren’t the words, Gavilar. [...] It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong." - once more I will say, words are not imporntant, intention makes the Words. 
11. Herald's death - we know heralds don't feel eachothers regular death - prelude. Even in the heat of the battle to all 9 of them completely miss death of Taln and don't feel that Kalak didn't die is too much, therefore Stormfaker could not be Ishar even if I like how timlines points to it and he could have abilities to do it. But why couldn't Stormfather feel it? After all he is the largest remain of Honor, he would definitely be connected to Oathpact and to Heralds in some way. Didn't he says to Dalinar that he feels them but don't see them (not sure)? But real Stormfather could felt this and reacted this way. If he planed to replace Taln then with herald's death it all fails. He knows it has begun, And He will not save Sprens from bonding and dying. He failed, all that's left is to follow Honor's plan to restore KR.  
12. “You lied?”
"Oh, Gavilar. There is so little you do not know. So much you assume."
SF didn't confirm nor denied it. But what he said at the beginning of the prolog "That depends upon your definition of lies." Gavilar later said that SF told him Sprens can't lie, but we don't see SF saying that, and it could be another assumption of Gavilar.
13. "If I try again, I will do it differently."
"I will never trust your family again."
And he did it very differently with Dalinar, never said a word to him up until battle of Narrak, even tries to kill him there. He never gives up his knowledge lightly, or in some cases at all, and did not trust him, maybe still don't trust him. But it is still true to Stormfather we know, and we know he tried to send visions to different people, but he also knows that Dalinar has a potential. Sprens can change no matter how hard they denying it.

That's most of the sentences or things that I've found to be weird, close to lies or lies, I think most of them should not be consider a lie, but "That depends upon your definition of lies.". I think it is all the same Stormfather we know, not some faker. But there is a secret in him. Those talks about becoming a Herald means someting. It's a possibility that we are ignoring being too focus on finding Stormfaker. 

If it was Stormfaker I thing that Cultivation would be most promising bet. We know what her plan was and Gavilar actions might helped her - he pushed both Dalinar and Taravangian into her arms. It's not Ishar because point 11. Odium might be the one, Gavilar could establish some connection carrying light from Braize, but he would be happy with him giving up on Braize. I don't like the idea od Tanavest's CS - let's recall how Preservation was behaving on his last days - he knew there was a plan, but nothing more than that, he couldn't created new plans or do something more other than appearing to few people. Moreover SF completely missing Tanavest's CS in his "mind/space/piece of investiture" and in his conversations with Gavilar is too much a stretch. Tanavest's CS would have too much control over his shared powers too close to his death.

But in a chapter of OB when Dalinar and Navani are talking with SF about heralds inside of the vision of last desolation, SF said that "Taln finnaly broke as well" but we know it was not him, and if it was SF in this prolog then he would know that other Herald could broke - he lies to Dalinar, or it was Stormfaker?

 

Mishram is improtant to Thaidakar - he can put her in a box, transport her to him, release her and have unlimited access to investiture. Simple as that. 

About Shallan's mother is a Herald theory - I like how it was argumented, but wasn't really in favor of it. But when I've read this prolog - I'm fully on board! I will take it even one crazy step further! Radient is not only split image of her mother Chanarach but she IS her! Somehow. It's her reborn "new form", or maybe part of her spiritual web that she had to split in order to have kids, or that "soul" traped in box inside wall? We don't know how Heralds or Returned can have kids but them being close to Sprens it could work similar to creating new Sprens - which we don't know how it's done but could be something like splitting part of their own spirit and giving it to their kids/shaping it. I'm rooting for it to happen! 

But what do i know? I was the one who thought "Lord of Scars" is some weird title of Autonomy, because of the word "Avatar" right behind that name, and who else have Avatars that we know of? Autonomy of course, it must be it! Perhaps I've learned nothing after all.

Sorry for all spelling and grammar mistakes - my phone painfully wants to convert all English words to my language. 

He can't heal wounds around aluminium, so just send aluminium bullet into his head.  

Name:

Snowman

Outfit:

Suit with top hat, winter gloves and scarf

Main power:

As long as ther is some source of water (in any phisical state but not inside of living creature) near me I can change it to snow and ice and manipulate it. The amount of created ice/snow depends on amount of water but I can create twice as many ice/snow as it could be possible from existing water and steam. Existing snow and ice doesn't multiply. Created ice and snow react normally with heat. But even when it melt this water cannot be multiply.

For example I can create ice spears and throw it, ice shield that can stop bullet, ice platforms/columns that can move and be use as mode of transportation, even ice wall or snow storm if there is enough water. Then I can reuse this ice. And of course I can create ICE CREAMS!!

When i fell strong fear I immediately transform all water into ice within a radius of 100 meters around me.

Secondary power:

Superhuman reflexes

Weakness:

Ice cream truck music... 

People hate me because I love freezing their water when they taking bath.