alder24

Some more WoBs:

You can't. Fully sapient Lifeless, like Returned, is impossible to make as a Type 2 Biochromatic entity. If it gained sapience it won't be Lifeless anymore, it would be Returned. Lifeless is only "Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host". Making it not mindless would make it not Type 2 anymore. Intent matters. Moreover, the number of Breaths doesn't determine the strength or intelligence of Awaken object. Vasher Awakens with hundreds of Breaths, and no object ever start "talking" to him. Intent matters. It's also Law of Comparability - "The amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn't necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened". But Lifeless already are sapient to some degree. They have a brain, they can "think" or at least better interpret commands. Someone might argue that Lifeless are sapient in that way, but we know we're talking about Returned level sapiency. That's just impossible. The question you should be asking is can you Awaken Returned and how much Breaths would it cost - 2500 Breaths, that's how much Divine Breaths is worth, but can humans do it without Shard. I don't know. But that's interesting to speculate. You would need to catch someone's souls in CR and infuse it with Investiture and Command. It might be possible with right Intent and Command, but it might also require some way to connect the soul back to its body. That artificial Returned won't also have access to Fortune and future visions like Shard made Returned. Yes you can. His body is already dead and separated from his soul. Your Breaths replace that soul. Yes, he's more invested, you can take that investiture away. In that case I would say no, as Breaths power them. More Breaths doesn't mean stronger Lifeless or awaken objects (Vasher explained it). So Lifeless made out of 50 Breaths would be as strong as Lifeless made out of 1 Breath, if similar bodies were used. The same goes with all senses and other abilities. Lifeless retains a level of skill and abilities that it had in life. This is an interesting question. Clod couldn't regenerate his body, Jewels had to maintain it, sew the wounds and replace muscles. This means Lifeless body doesn't have regenerative functions of the living body, because well, it's dead. So Kandra-lifeless won't have them as well, as this is the same process we're talking about, but Kandra can do it much faster than humans. So I doubt they could do it or even change shape.

That's why I love Adolin, he's such a nice guy for everyone. This chapter shows the best of him, unlike Kaladin where it's the worst of him. You are getting closer to the end of WoR. You'll have a lot of action soon. Not every Order is like this. Windrunners value morality and oaths, while Skybreakers are all about following the law. Some Orders can lie and perjure all they want (khem khem Shallan). But all Orders has to live up to their Oaths and Ideals. That can cause problems to Radiants. Kaladin and Shallan in chasm is one of my favorite sequence in WoR. It's so therapeutic for them, so nice to see them finally getting close. For some it's where Shalladin ship first sailed. Yes, that's a secret out It's so nice to wake up to this surprise of so many new reactions from you. We all had moments when we couldn't stop reading, and you choose the right one for that. This was another great fight scene. Chasmfiends are so cool, I was sad they had to kill it.

Terminal velocity happens when drag force of the air is equal to the force of gravity, both of those forces cancel each other out resulting in 0 acceleration. Terminal velocity isn't killing or hurting anyone. Again, it's not about them being hurt by greater speeds, it's about their muscles that can't move as fast as the speed they currently have. At some speed they simply won't be able to push themself any further as if they try, it will slow them down or they will stumble and fall down. It takes less time than you think, tank turret can fully rotate in 9 seconds. You're kidding me? AA-missiles? Air-air missiles? Almost all missiles contain some form of guidance and control mechanism. That's how they stay on course. Missiles have speed of Mach 5, ICBM of Mach 23. Reverse lashings just won't do anything to them.

I think in that case it is because the masses of the air are "pushing" Windrunner along with them, so the air doesn't produce that big drag force, or the drag force is pushing them with the air. Their body is their limit. They need to use muscles and there will be a moment when they can't move any faster as they can't keep up with the acceleration they want to gain.

I have to be realistic, I don't like changes, I would be a perfect fit for Preservation in all its negativity. That's why I doubt I would want to be shard. For a hybrid - all of them so I don't have to worry about conflicting natures of different parts of me. If not for this option, Cultivation, Endowment or Invention would be nice to balance my negativity

My point was a tank can just drive away, and only Windrunners and Skybreakers can catch up to it. The Abrams tank M1A1 has a speed on road: 45 mph (72 km/h), off-road: 30 mph (48 km/h). Even Edgedancers can't move that fast. Tank won't just stand and wait for Radiant to walk up to it, as you suggested, it will drive away. And tank can engage from several kilometers, and doesn't need to stop to fire. Radiant can't do that, most powers presented by them so far require touch.

Which I pointed out was a bad example. Those are parts of his surges. They are not from some external source. He can do it because of his surges. Yeah, I feel you. I just wanted to point out definition of few words. Miles was said to be constantly healing. Miles has a concentration of investiture bigger than Wax. With compounding he gains more investiture than he used it as an input.

You mean magic that some people have the ability to perform and magic that does something when used? Sounds like it's fitting the definition of power perfectly. Did I miss the chapter when she was walking on her hands at 10 mph? Yes, that's what you've been ignoring this whole time. Those are your definitions? You should start this discussion with that, instead of telling that Oxford English dictionary is wrong. By those definitions compounders are more powerful, as they can concentrate large amounts of investiture in their metalminds in form of feruchemical attributes, and this is something that no other people can do. So by YOUR definition Miles was more powerful than Wax, as he had huge concentration of investiture in his metalminds, which Wax didn't have. Then I have to ask you, why did you argue otherwise?

I'm presenting you definition of words by Oxford English dictionary. By those definitions skill is important factor of ability, and ability is defining factor of power, therefore skill is important factor of power. I base my arguments on a world renowned dictionary. Your comparison is plainly wrong and without any logic, based on nothing. It isn't valid. It doesn't matter what Division can do, what matters is that Nale has Division. Like I said before it's pointless to discuss it any further, when you're unwilling to acknowledge the definition of words you are using.

Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? He had Feruchemy, Elend didn't. Definition of power is "the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way." - Marsh has the ability to use some feruchemical metals and has the capacity to compound that. Therefore he was more powerful that Elend was. By the same definition of the word "power", compounding is the ability to burn your own metalmind and get feruchemical attribute from allomancy - this ability is not present in someone who is not a compounder, therefore it's a power. Miles was more powerful in this regard as he had the ability (power) to burn his metalminds, which Wax didn't. All I'm doing is using the definition of words. Elantrian who has learned new Aon gains more power as ability is defined by skill - "possession of the means or skill to do something / talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area." Taking the entire books into account, we know Skybreakers are capable of using Division and Honorblades grants unrestricted powers to its wielder. We also know from those books that Heralds are extremely skillful fighters. Narratively Dalinar was facing a more powerful enemy than he was. Discussions about semantics can become rather bloody. That's why they are so pointless, as every side is right.

Excuse me, the what?? So 6 BILLION people who are Radiants/Mistings/Elantrians etc? For comparison, US population is 332 mil, and have 1.35 million active military personnel with additional 0.8 million in reserves - that's 2.15 million which is 0.6% of US population! Additionally they have 17 mil that can be drafted - which is 5.1% of its population. There are around 28 mil active military personnel in the whole world (google), which is 0.35% of world population. If we assume 5.1% of people in the world can be drafted into the army, then Earth has around 408 mil people that can be drafted. However Earth doesn't have equipment nor supplies for even fraction of that number. And you are giving 6 billion surgebinders to Cosmere? Like what? That's 700 mil Radiants in each order (without Bondsmiths). To say that's crazy is understatement. In that case even Scadrial wins... I think you all are missing one point with Soulcasting from CR. When Shallan soulcast from PR, she touches the object and can talk to its cognitive manifestation. However in CR, she needs to first FIND the bead that represents that object (like it was shown in Jasnah unreleased chapter), and that beed doesn't need to be in the same place. So when you have a fast moving object, that often changes its location, its cognitive manifestation doesn't need to follow it. You won't find jet's cognitive manifestation where jet is flying in PR. Moreover, there is more trash on Earth than there are objects on Roshar. Finding cognitive manifestation of an jet or tank in CR will be like finding a needle in earth size haystack. Good luck with that. (I imagine that Earth cognitive manifestation of objects are not mists or beads, but just pieces of trash...) No windrunner, skybreaker or elsecaller would EVER catch up to a jet 15km in the air moving 6.5x faster than they ever could. Just no way. They will never even get close to a jet. The sonic boom that jet generates would cause them harm. Adding to it, jet can fire laser guided missiles and shoot down from the sky all glowing people. They can't but US spy satellites have a resolution of 5cm. Yes, they can see any object larger than 5 cm. They can see every glowing man on Earth. They can easily spot unusual concentration of people in some building and report their movements. The only way for Roshar or Sel (with reasonable numbers of Surgebinders) to "win" that war is to fight from CR only - which is so boooooring. And it would still take a lot of time to destroy Earth resistance.

Well, you should see this coming after his imprisonment Yes, Shallan's story is much better in this one, more action, mysteries, training. This chapter is great example of this.

Possibly mental speed, but not confirmed on Marsh. Was it said that lynch-pin spike doesn't grant any ability? On compounding in Era 1 it's hard to say. Inquisitors were certainly using Feruchemy and were controlled directly by Ruin who knows about compounding. Great analysis @therunner I agree that double spiked inquisitor is weaker in term of strength than Lerasium Mistborn. However I will point out that Inquisitors were controlling the armies of Koloss, or at least it looked like that. So it might be that Ruin allowed them to take control over Koloss in order to trick Elend and Vin. Except feruchemy... Because compounding makes "new allomantic metal" available only for compounder. It also gives more investiture in form of attribute from burning that was initially stored in that metal. So that's a "new allomantic power" someone has. It was described like this either in book or some WoB. You missed my point. That's what you are saying: "they didn't do that, so narratively it's like they didn't have that powers". Vin couldn't burn atium, so "narratively she didn't have that power". All powers that Dalinar had weren't use in the fight with Nale so "narratively it's like he didn't have that powers". It's what YOU are saying with that logic, not me.

I think no because it's a brain issue. Pewter and gold makes your brain ignore signals sent by pain, Tin enhances that feeling, but if your brain still ignores those signals, you wouldn't feel it anyway. So it's not the feeling issue. But it might be some magical blocade or threshold for pain that tin can overcome. Hard to say.

I didn't find WoB on this one, I find the one telling that blind person can see atium shadow.

The number is relevant, as Elend didn't have feruchemy. Yes I'm aware of that, all original spikes (9-11 during FE) grants 1 power each. Inquisitors have all physical and mental powers from those spikes, plus Atium and some feruchemical powers like gold healing. However while Marshes spikes doesn't have to grants new abilities, they can double what he already had - eg double A-steel makes him twice as powerful. And he had access to compounding. It's all about how you define "power". For me compounding is a power. Do we know who was stronger in eg steelpush, Lerasium Mistborn or inquisitor with 2 A-steel spikes? On the "narrative level" Vin didn't have Atium while Zane had, which makes him more powerful than Vin. See, there is still an example of you being wrong. So how the h this works? "Narratively speaking" Dalinar used only the power of connection, while Nale use the powers of Gravitation, healing and his Shardblade. He still "wins" 3 to 1. It's so arbitrary to decide what is narrative important and what's not... For me it's more narratively important that Nale had access to both of his surges and was extremely experienced fighter, vastly outpowering Dalinar and he still lost to Dalinar despite all of that. Dalinar overcoming such a powerful enemy is more narratively important than what powers were used at a given moment.

I don't interpret it this way. It depends only on Kelsier deciding that Harmony is doing harm or causing danger to Scadrial for some reason. It doesn't mean that Harmony will harm people, it means that Kelsier might think that is the case. Afterall Kel has a habit of conspiring to kill gods. Also Sazed has future vision, he could already see the future in which Kel is opposing him or even in which he turn into Discord. He might just suggest to Kel that it only depends on Kel which way their relation will go.

Oh, you really want to open this pandora box? Well, here we go again. Earth wins against everyone. Period. This is not a competition, this is an execution. I agree on your ranking of "who will be the last man standing against Earth". Nalthis - I won't even start this one. Sorry Awakening Scadrial - early WW1 tech vs our 100 years later. There is no comparison. You can add in a few Mistborn to it, Earth wins just by using expeditionary force. Sel - bullet is faster than drawing. Eventually Elantrians will get hit by one and killed. They might cause some problems but overall we're talking drones 20km in the air vs glowing dudes and drawings. Roshar - Biggest challenge, not because of land army, as guys with sticks are no match for tanks, but Radiants will cause trouble. Not that much. Shardplate is NOT bulletproof. It can be damaged, and every soldier carries an automatic rifle, so they can spray Shardplates until it breaks apart. Not to mention tanks, artillery, jet strikes or precise missiles strikes or bombs. Here is counter for any power in Cosmere Flight - we got jets that can move faster than the speed of sound, rockets and missiles that travel Mach 5. We are better at it than Windrunners - they can fly 200mph, f16 makes 1300mph at 15km. Good luck for Windrunners. Transportation - we have satellite coverage of the entire planet. We will know instantly where and how many enemies appear. We can counter them with fast and mobile strikes teams, missiles and jets. Healing - big explosions kill them. Just don't stop firing. They will run out of healing very fast. Even Fullborn can be killed if you separate him from his metalminds with powerful explosion. Illusions - satellites + infrared vision (yes it's a wave, but they don't know it, they can't fake it) + cameras everywhere. Almost every single person on Earth has a camera in his pocket. Transmutation - industry with extreme levels of production. We can produce more than them. Division - we can do it better. Look at history. Future vision - hard to counter, that's why we have AI that can keep up with changes. We use armor only on vehicles. And they need to close the distance. Tank driving away will defeat 8/10 orders of Radiants. Tank firing - 10/10. And tank is not alone. And of course we are dominating in the field of weapons of mass destruction. 14000 nuclear warheads ready to launch in a short timeframe. Possibly lots of chemical weapons hidden as well. I'll wait for Era3/4 Cosmere to challenge Earth, until then it's not looking good for Cosmere.

That's why I counted the abilities that each has. Marsh has 21, Elend 16. Marsh is more powerful by your definition. Period. Don't ignore the numbers. It was perceived multiple times in the book, it was suggested to us that he was burning other metals than steel. But he didn't know it, and by my logic that makes him less powerful, but by your logic it doesn't matter if he knew or not, he had those powers. I worded my statement very precisely, as I knew you would answer in that way: Moreover we are talking about power levels. You can't just ignore one power granted by the surge of Division just because it wasn't used. It doesn't matter if it was used, he has Division, he has 2 surges. That's what matters. I'm not discussing what he can do with Division or Shardplate, which is what you are doing with Dalinar, I'm pointing out that he has those abilities, like Dalinar has Bondsmith abilities. Saying that Dalinar can remove someone from Oathpact is not equal to saying Nale has Division. Btw, Dalinar's Oath to "unite people'' might make him unable to divide Herald and Oathpact. No, Wax fired as well. ch26. It was a fight which Was lost. It doesn't matter, I'm talking about power levels. I can't ignore someone's abilities and surges just because he didn't use it. He has Division, 2 surges, he holds Honorblade, it makes some compounding effects. He is more powerful that regular Radiant.

Definition of ability: possession of the means or skill to do something. talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area. So if power is defined by ability, and ability is defined by skill, it means skill is part of power. We're gonna argue semantics, I will use definitions of words. That's why it's pointless to argue semantics. It does matter by your own definition, as Marsh has access to 21 abilities in total, while Elend only to 16. Marsh doesn't have useless ones like gold/aluminum/malatium etc, and has more combat focus ones and feruchemical powers like F-iron etc. It's your main point: If you disagree on this one then I will use your logic and claim that Wax is much more powerful than Dumad, as Wax at this point was weak-Mistborn, and has access to every allomantic ability, but he just did not use it. Just because he didn’t use them doesn't mean that he was weaker - which you used as an argument for your own claims to prove Dalinar is more powerful, while denying the same argument to prove Nale is more powerful. He didn't even use his powers, so in terms of storytelling he might as well have not had them. Dalinar has a lot more power than Nale. Dalinar, or any other Bondsmith, has never stripped anyone of heraldship so in terms of storytelling he might as well not have that power. This is what is called "gunfight" - gun + fight - they fought, he lost. Definition of gunfight - a fight involving an exchange of fire with guns. Both siedes fired a gun, therefore there was a gunfight, therefore there was a fight. Which was extremely weak. He just attracted Syl, we don't know if he bonded with her or spoke first Ideal. By the WoB I posted "strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond". His bond at that point was almost nonexistent, therefore Helaran with Shards vastly overpowered him. His Shards consumed much more Stormlight than Kalladin at this point - again, WoB I posted talks about it. But did affect the power level of Nale, and this discussion is about power. In every confrontation Nale is more powerful than regular Radiant due to the compounding effects of Honorblade and Oaths. Both Radiant and Nale have access to 2 abilities (2 surges) and same amout of investiture (by your definition) but Nale has also unknown ability/investiture coming from his compounding so he is always stronger.

I consider "skill" an important part of "power", as without proper skill, any power is just useless. In that sense most opponents main characters faced were more powerful than main characters were. Wax and Dumad fight is however interesting as it was pointed out, Wax had to improvise. However it was not the first time we see this in books. Also Elend vs Marsh fight at the end of HoA, Marsh by @Frustration definition of "power" was vastly more powerful than Elend, because Marsh had access to feruchemy and compounding, Elend didn't. Some inquisitors might also be more powerful than Mistborn like Vin or Kel, because they could be made out of full Mistborn not just Seeker. I don't think we know who that might be. Sazed vs Marsh in HoA. While both Vin and Zane both were spiked, Zane got more combat oriented ability, which in fight made him more powerful than Vin. And he had Atium, Vin didn't. And fight at the end of BoM when Wax had to face both his uncle and sister who both hold multiple spikes, and therefore have more power than Wax, before he got Bands. Kaladin vs multiple Shardbearers in SA - when in many of those fights Kal was lacking skill to use his powers, didn't progress in Oaths enough to gain new powers or like in his fight against Shallan's brother, he didn't have them at all. Kal vs Amaram. Adolin, Dalinar and Gavilar fighting Szeth. Dalinar vs Eshonai in WoK - Eshonai is more powerful as she was bonded with spren. So Wax vs Dumad was far from being first fight like this. It's always like this. Nale has Honorblade and is 5th ideal Skybreaker so he gets some effects out of this combination, which by some definitions can be consider more powerful By the definition of the word "power" - the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way - compounding is the ability to do something that others can't do, thus it gives more power. Also, without skill you don't have ability to do something, but you have capacity to do it in the future. This whole topic just turned into an argument "which definition of word power is the right one" - shocking answer, all are.

You can store allomantic bronze sense So anything that your body can feel/sense, even if granted by other invested arts, can be stored in tinmind. If you were able to sense electricity, you could store that. Inquisitor's steel sight should also be storable.

Stories that Wit tells are there for a reason. They're there to reflect on the character, help him a bit. They're for character development.

"Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" short novella from "Arcanum Unbounded". Shades are very, very scary things. I wouldn't recommend going on vacation to the Forests of Hell.