alder24

I think the Evil came after Shades were discovered on second continent (that's why it was named Hell). So Ire watching for Shades in CR is confirmation, that they do exist also in CR. From Coppermind on Evil:

Is Life Sense a literal sense or an invested ability? Life Sense detects life, but not Drabs, this means it detects investiture, as it can detect sprens etc. And you can hide in it by fully filling investiture in nicrosilmind. So this WoB provide answer for @QafianSage. It also makes me think that it is an invested ability, thus it would be stored in Nicrosil, not in Tin.

The scoring of technology is in additional points, I wonder if it would be better to make it as multiplier factor for Armed forces. Like e.g. medieval technology as a base x1, guns/explosives x1.5, automatic weapons x1.75 or something like + x0.2 for any crucial advancement in military tech. On top of that WMD, rockets or any more interesting weapons as additional points. But this factor would have to be fairly chosen, not what I propposed. Similarly usage of invested arts in war could also work as multiplier and additional points together. Just throwing it out here to think about it. That would require a great rework and new fair scale. Additional points works as well, but in my opinion are not as good as multiplier factor, because technology will always dominate any medieval army, no matter numbers (on our world).

The whole point of Warbreaker book was to prevent another Manywar, which would ended with total destruction of Hallandren. This clearly suggest, that Idrian coalition would be more powerful force to be recon with. What's more important, Yesteel possess the knowledge of creating Type 4 entities, which would be a total game changer in any military conflict. Thus I suggest including a "Idrian coalition" force to the Armed Forces category. Also Returned has some kind of future visions ability and can act on this, as we've seen with Lightsong. This would potentially mean that Returned would be send with a special task of changing the course of war, which would be hard to oppose and predict. This might be included in Shard section, idk.

Sooo I'm not voicing for a change, more points or anything, I'm just voicing my opinion on this one. Shades being both present in CR and PR, and being enraged by blood, running, and explosions, would make any invasion impossible to conduct. Invasion means fighting, and this means blood, death, running and explosions - this would attract Shades like magnet and make any fights imposible, as now you have to "defend" yourself from Shades. Shades alone would quickly destroy any army. Even silver is damaged when in contact with Shades. Defenders/partisans just need to set up traps and explosives in Forests of Hell which, when triggered, would send army of enraged Shades on your enemy, while defenders are safely sipping bear miles away - like Silence did. Even advancing through CR you have to first avoid all Shades in there. Ire has troops on Threnody's CR border to prevent Shades from escaping. They are a significant danger. And also you have whole continent swallowed by mysterious Evil, which was so dangerous, that humanity abandoned that continent and chose to settle with deadly Shades instead. This continent is very dangerous to visit in CR. This is the only instance in the whole Cosmere, where some force/entity killed and displaced all of humans living there and prevents them from returning (nobody that went to Homeland returned) - not even destruction of Ashyn and Desolations were on the same level. This alone tells that Evil is not a force to mess with. This all makes me think, that it is impossible to contuct a classical invasion of this planet. Invading force would be force to deal with Shades and possibly Evil and Deepest One, not with the sparse defenders. The only way for any invasion to be successful, that I see, is to gather large enough forces outside of Threnody's CR and make an ultimatum, demanding unconditional and total surrender. But, as we know from history, this almost never works, and small partisan group would be enough to decimate any occupying force by sending waves of Shades on them.

Oh, I know that, I just don't know what you consider point worthy etc. As long as description considers all major features and it's fair, I leave giving points to you. They said they watch it, not guard it. They just noticed that Set is coming with investiture through perpendicularity but did not take any actions to prevent it. This gives them more valuable information about Set, which would later be use in fight with them. Revealing themselves in the very beginning would just make them lose this advantage as Set would just find a way to transport it more covertly, which Ghostbloods would not notice anymore. That's great idea. Together with Logistics (both offensive and defensive) proposed before, intelligence (capability of spying in enemy's territory/forces) and counterintelligence (capability of enemy spying in planets's territory/forces, and measures to prevent this) are important factors in war.

What I think you have to first store your identity in Aluminum, and that gives you the ability to make unkeyed metal minds. Then you store your ability of ferring in nicrosil metal mind, which is now unkeyed. But that would leave you without your ferring ability in the end. So that Excisor that Malwish has, have to be able to store your identity and give it back to you (unkeyed aluminum metalmind would work) and then compound your nicrosil mind to grant you double Soulbearer ability - one goes back to you, the other is stored in nicrosil. Then you combine that Nicrosil metalmind with metal of specific ferring ability, that is also unkeyed.

This is part of Dawnshard's after effect that prevents him from causing harm. Eating meat makes Hoid nauseous as well. That's the nature of Dawnshard. The sheer thought of harming someone makes him "suffer".

No, investiture resist being invested - that's why you can't awaken something that is already awaken, and you can't awaken something already invested - like god metals. It would actually take insanely amounts of Breaths to awaken a god metal, as you need to break through that already invested metal resistance to your investiture - so it's nearly impossible. Atium is Atium, it is already an element on Scadrial's periodic table so it won't become steel - but it can be alloyed with steel. It's hard to say if in what form and if Ruin's investiture was used during Nightblood creation, however I doubt it was in physical form, as like written above, awakening invested object is mostly impossible. We know that metal used for blade was steel, so if any Ruin's investiture was used, it would be used alongside Breaths infused into sword to awaken it. OR as Ruin's intent is universally accessible (everyone can use hemalurgy, Ruin care only about increasing entropy) the very command "destroy", which is Ruinous, might unintentionally infused Nightblood with Ruin's investiture. But that's just my thought, we know only this WoB about Ruin and Nightblood: Not exactly, enough Investiture on its own will gain sentience. Odium has his own sprens (splinters) and they are sentience while Odium is not splintered. Splinters are often sentient, and may have its own intent, seperated from Shard's intent. I think the bigger importance on what surges are granted via Nahel Bond is the intent of the spren itself, rather than alloy of its investiture. But tbf I don't know. From Coppermind: No, they all can use only Stormlight, as far as we know, except for Lift, her spirit web was changed by Cultivation and that's why she can use ONLY Lifelight, she creates it form food.

That sounds fun, I want to see the math! Edit: There is approximately 10^67 atoms in our galaxy, so I don't think that's possible to get that number with 16 god metals alloyed with 16 base metals + 15 god metals.

Before I start, I have to say that I'm very content with the changes you made and description seams fair and reasonable. I don't want to sound nitpicking, as it feels uncomfortable after your changes, buuuut Within the Basin there is like 7 rivers/canals, all converging towards the city of Elendel. So the distance between 2 rivers is wider close to the mountains, but closer to the city, this distance is very narrow (triangular shape). That means any inviding force that approaches Elendel, and don't want to cross the rivers, will have to gradually shorten their frontlines and assult the city with basically several kilometers wide frontline - which is very short for a city diameter of like 12-ish km and would be very ineffective. Standard tactic for besieging any city is to encircle it, and assult it from all directions, which for Elendel means crossing all those 7 rivers/canals. However those rivers/canals are not the biggest on Scadrial. Main river, Irongate, is the widest, and flows from outside of the Basin, and would be a serious obstacle, but rest are relativelly small ones - still they would give some defensive positions for defenders, but it wouldn't be that challenging to cross. So while I agree rivers mostly don't provide serious barrier, but there is a reason to cross all 7 rivers/canals within the Basin, as it's necessary to besiege Elendel. Once again, description looks very reasonable and covers fairly all major geographic obstacles on Scadrial towards northern and southern direction of attack - which was my main concern. I don't know precisely how you score it , but I didn't expect it to be rated so high. Thank you for fair review and work done on this

You counted 7/32(+1) metals and call it everything? Time bubbles - I doubt he could make it - Stormfather "space" is not the same. Emotional Allomancy - it's not connection based Pulling/pushing metals to you. F-Steel? A/F-Tin? F-Zink - how would he speed up his mental speed? The only way I see him replicate it is with that Stormfather "space", but its far less effective. F-Copper - kind of forging connections like he did with Tien and Kal, but that's different than remembereing. His language learning would be good replacement. F-Iron - ground trick would gain you weight, but no trick to reduce it. And you have arts like Awakening, can he replicate it? It's much more than connection, it's more tied to Identity. How? How would he get Wakefulness from it? I can't see it. For now Alter fabrials only detect people, not use of investiture. But he might be able to do it with some weird connection, however that's a stretch. Tbf, Bondsmith can just steal all the powers with connection. So yeah, he's op. But he need to touch people to do it, and that's limiting factor.

Here is important WoB: Autonomy is messing with Sel, and Bavadinium is on it. Good catch.

That's nice theory, but I agree, as long as he's Harmony, I doubt he could make an Avatar of Ruin without Preservation's Avatar. But as a Discord, it wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Punching a soul is not comparable to "Nightblooding it away"... That do cause harm. A lot of it.

They did it with Ashyn - not whole planet, but they did something to it that people calls it destruction of Ashyn. So yes, they are that strong. They were able to shatter God. I argue that people on Roshar had all reasons to believe that if they use a Dawnshard, they would destroy Roshar. So it was in their best interest not to use any Dawnshards, especially in combat. I know not all Dawnshards are the same, and have the same torment, but we don't know which one Hoid hold. Fused are slightly different from Kel - they have body and can FEEL pain therefore it causes them harm - Kel just thought there should be pain and felt it as a result.

You know what I meant, everyone knows what I meant - let's not argue semantics. The world "destruction" is often used to describe that event. From coppermind I don't have english version of OB, so can't provide quote. What is "this fact" in Coppermind - the destruction of Ashyn, or invasion, or both, not what you think or belive to be the truth, but how the text and wording of this sentences suggest it? But I've understood it as it was both destruction of Ashyn and later invasion of Singers that needed reassurance from Honor, and that's how I've remembered it described in the books. Not one of those events, but two combined. That's a possibility, and also to prevent it from bonding with someone so it can't destroy another world. Also didn't Odium claimed that humanity would also destroy the Roshar like Ashyn? Also also, to previous points, if Dawnshard's torments were applied to its current holders, then they would be unable to hurt people, like Hoid and someone else we know - causing destruction of the planet and severe burns on survivors looks pretty harmful. Splittening of Adonalsium also seams very harmful. So it's speculative that Dawnshards doesn't have torments before they gave it up. But again - no proofs and WoBs on that yet. Cause BAM was conneted to Roshar's spirit web, and capturing her rip a hole in that web, to which sprens were also connected and could feel it, and most likely that's why deadeyes apear only after Recreance.

By accident... Not purposefully. You mean use the Dawnshards and have certainty of destruction of Roshar, just like it was done on Ashyn, and just like Honor told them? Because there was Honor telling them, they would destroy Roshar, like their ancestors before, if they use it. And the last time someone used a Dawnshard it render whole planet uninhabitable. This is not an evidence, this is only speculations. Speculation is not an evidence. No proof that Nohadon hold a Dawnshard - only Rafoed WoBs, which are not a proof. It's not certain, it's just speculative. So let's look at this again. Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium - the bigest event after creation of Cosmere - this is a fact Dawnshard, with combination of Surges, was used on Ashyn and accidentally destroy whole planet - this is a fact Honor was so worried about it happening on Roshar, that he binded Surges, especially Bondsmithing - this is a fact Dawnshard was hidden in Akinah, under protection of lanceryn, so nobody could ever access it - this is a fact The burden of responsibility for Ashyn destruction was so big, that Honor had to personally reassure Radiants every generation - this is a fact (edit: or I might be wrong in that case) Honor was ranting before Recreance about humanity using Dawnshard with Surges and destroying Roshar, like their ancestors before on Ashyn - this is the fact Recreance was caused by the will to protect Roshar from destruction by the use of Dawnshards and Surges like on Ashyn - this is a fact After Scouring of Aimia, and extinction of lanceryn, the task of protecting the Dawnshard was so important, that Sleepless took it upon themselves, and created elaborated distractions and obstacles just to hide its presence on Akinah - this is a fact When Rysn became Dawnshard, Sleepless were so scared, that they immediately decided to kill her - this is a fact Even Sleepless decided that nobody with access to powers or investiture should hold a Dawnshard, to prevent it from being ever used - this is a fact Dawnshards were never said in books to be used in fighting during Desolations - this is a fact There is no WoB proving/suggesting that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolations - this is a fact I'm not seeing tthe certainty that Dawnshards were used during the desolation, what I'm seeing is that it's extremely unlikely to be true. And that you definitely can't claim it as a confirmed truth, as that is simply a lie. Every Radiant that was worried so much, about possibility of Roshar destruction by usage of Dawnshards, that Honor had to personally reassure them, would never suggest to use Dawnshards as a weapons in the first place. And when this reassurance was absent and reversed, they immediately abandoned their surges, making all the same, spontaneous decision, independent from each other.

There is no answer to this. It might require the same amount of investiture a singular Breath has, if you want to copy it. Much less if you forging yourself back to having Breaths you once had. Or a lot of investiture if you forging investiture directly into Breaths (if that's even possible). And it could be powered by stamp, If you provide enough investiture for it (on Sel it's coming from Dor). However WoB suggest that there are limits of what Dor is capable of making.

You can't be serious? How is this an argument? It was said, that Radiants fought in Desolation, Truthwatchers are Radiants, therefore they fought aswell. Nowhere was it said that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolation. This quote only suggest that Dawnshards are now inaccessible for humanity, NOT that they were using them in the past. He is worried that humanity won't make it without him ("I wish I could do more"), and lists out possible ways to fight Odium - only excluding Dawnshards. Please, point out where it says in this quote, that humanity was using the Dawnshards to fight? It doesn't have the meaning you claim it to have. As the person is still holding the Dawnshard and is actively changing its holder and his soul? Those are wildly different circumstances. And Rysn behavior doesn't indicate that she currently has this effects, however barely anything was specify in her interludes. We don't know yet, as Brandon doesn't tell us this. Or instantly destroy your world and everyone that is still alive, as it done it on Ashyn. This is too risky to justify using it. You doubt, they didn't. They were very aggressive about it. Again, what is this argument? It's Rafo for now. You can't use it as a proof, as this is not a proof. Why do you even keep insisting on this? You don't provide any arguments, you don't have any proof. This is not argumentative discussion, this is finding any "arguments" just to support your opinion. Again. give me definite proof, that Dawnshards were used in combat during Desolation. Evidence from books, or WoBs. Just one. If you can't find any confirmation. don't claim it to be truth.

Yes, because he is dead and can't help them anymore. That's why he mention them. Binding surges suggest he did not change his mind about Dawnshards. Kill him before he becomes Dawnshard. But Hoid effects are because he once held a Dawnshard. Does the same effects apply to someone that is currently holding a Dawnshard? Total planet destruction seams a lot worse than mere 90% of population. Don't you remember that Sleepless were to kill Rysn after they realised she took Dawnshard? Apparently there is a way to kill a person holding a Dawnshard. Thank you. You finally admitted that there is no proof of Dawnshards being use for fight during Desolation. I rest my case, your Honor.

The problem I see with this rebelion, is that the current government already condemned and cut all its ties with previous one, and Taravangian, as a reaction to Taravangian's betrayal. His daughter was purposefully kept away from him and Diagram, so she could not be connected to his actions. Even if people discoverd all of Taravangian's actions, they couldn't blame his daughter for it, as she stands on their side. Moreover who knows about what he done in Hospital? Only Diagram and Szeth - Szeth is not a trustworthy witness, and Diagram is dispersed and still loyal. Who knows about deal between Taravangian and Odium? Tbf I don't remember if Taravangian say it to Dalinar (I think he did?), and if he did, did he mention Kharbrant as a subject of this deal? Dalinar is too honorable to use this to increase unrest in now neutral city. And, what is the most scary thing, people just simply don't care about homeless people disappearing from the streats and being killed in the back rooms of the hospitals. Not when they can enjoy free healtcare for it. The deal between Odium and Taravangian is still binding to Todium, as he checked it.

And you have proof that he didn't think the same way during Desolation about dangers of using Dawnshards? There was a particular planet nearby that was a blunt example of the Dawnshard's danger. Just say, that everyone that will try to become a Dawnshard would be public enemy nr 1, and killed immediately. Sprens could just break the bond if someone were to disobey. But this is pointless speculation. Forming Dawncities is not an example of fighting with the Dawnshards during Desolations. And you have also Dawnsingers, that were Parshendi, not Humans, so that would suggest that it was them who made Dawncities and even could used Dawnshards to do it, as Brandon pointed out the "linguistic connection". This is the only instant that I can agree, that Dawnshard were used, but we don't have any confirmation about it, and no proof. I'm of the opinion that it was amplified anti-frequency of Stormseat that shattered it - Dawnshard might be involved. Because when the Dawnshard was used previously, it cause almost total destruction of the whole planet with lot's of casualties and injuries. Why would you ever try to use it again when last time was so disastrous? Honor binded Bondsmith power to prevent it from happening ever again, allowing Dawnshard to be in hands of the men would make this binding pointless. You need to prove its usage during fights of Desolations, not claim they were "because why not". I'm telling you why not - Ashyn is your why. Moreover, Dawnshard was given to Akinah to be hold safely and protected by lanceryn , so nobody would claim it and use it. Sleepless were very precise about it.

Because Honor during Recreance was ranting about people destroying Roshar with Surges and Dawnshards just like Ashyn? He most likely forbade the use of Dawnshards by humans, just like he chained the Surges (most notably Bondsmiths). He told only in the visions, that now when he's gone, humans stand no chance against Odium without Downshards. There is no proof suggesting that humans ever used Dawnshards during Desolation. Even The Poem of Ista doesn't prove it, as it mention only climbing up the stairs to a temple with a Dawnshard - not fighting in Desolation. You need in book proof, or WoB, to claim that Dawnshards were used in battle during Desolations. There is none. Just accept it. I've already corrected myself on the use of word "not possible", see post above.

Only Kaladin killed one. And that was the only one Fused that died during siege. Azure managed to "scare" them away, but never kill. Non Radiant soldier most likely killed a Fused, but it was extremely rare to happen. Not impossible, I should write improbable.