alder24

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

After reading Secret History, I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant. 

We know Kwaan has some knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, because he was researching if trees could think. However, there’s nothing in-text or WoB that suggest there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers, much less Kwaan himself. We don’t even know any history about the Pits of Hathsin and worldhopping to Scadrial, apart from our knowledge on Preservation’s initial creation of the Pits and its history during the Final Empire.

I think Preservation gave Kwaan visions of the Cognitive Realm, of the fact metal glows to Shards and thus can’t be altered by Ruin (who can’t read the thoughts that Pres could use as a loophole). If not this, I think Preservation created Kwaan’s photographic memory for the aforementioned purpose of eventually nudging Rashek into position. Kwaan then just kept paying attention to his metal tablets, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.

I don't think he needed Preservation for that. Realmatic Theory was a part of ancient Terris religion. Kwaan was able to travel to CR and that alone is enough to realize how metal looks for an entity watching it from outside of PR. It glows. If it glows in CR it means that it can't be read. Even Kelsier in SH immediately realized that metal and souls are the same thing. This is simple enough for Kwaan to reach that conclusion as well, especially if he knew about both Preservation and Ruin and their true nature, just like the First Generation of Kandra knew that (admittedly some of that might have come from Rashek after Ascension, but I think it's clear that ancient Terris was still aware of Ruin). 

Cosmere spoilers:

20 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Also I think subdermal aluminum patches around the head will probably be a thing. Maybe around the stomach for more Internal allomancers to help hide their allomancy.

I think aluminum around the stomach might interfere with your Allomancy, especially steel and iron as those come from that area. What about small watch like primer cubes charged with A-copper? You just turn it on and off when you need it and it won't mess your Allomancy. 

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong we don't, That table is an in world document. And is therefore an unreliable Narrator. People in the cosmeto do not know that Atiums is not Atium   But instead Atium alloied with electrum. 

 As for what happened with  Elend,  That has been reconed.  None of the Atium we see in Arizona was real atium.

This table literally differentiates between pure Atium and its alloys. And you just ignored the WoB I've given to you which quite definitely prove that what Elend experienced IS the same effect pure Atium gives you and that the table IS talking about the real pure Atium effect. That was already after the retcon happened, Peter clearly stated that it is older than people assume in that WoB. Did you even read it? 

7 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. 

Oh I love that idea! @Trusk'our what do you think?

21 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

as a Dustbringer myself, I'm obsessed with them and therefor am very curious if any of the non radiant characters we have met could turn into a Dustbringer. this topic is also made even more intriguing as Dustbringers are 1 of the 3 radiant types not seen within the Archive yet. 

I'm open to all theories at this point because I'm having trouble finding potential candidates for the Dustbringer title.

To add more, the Dustbringers book in SA will have Ash as the primary flashback character, so it has been theorized that in the future Ash will become a Dustbronger. She keeps destroying stuff and she can't control that, which fits to the main theme of Dustbringers which is to master and self-control your destructive abilities, although this is Heralds madness doing, it won't be as easily solvable as joining Radiant order, as evident by Nale. 

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

OK, so I just finished up with the Sunlit Man, and have been thinking about what this means for Stormlight, specifically its ending.

This is the Stormlight Archive forum only, spoilers from other books like TSM should not be discussed here, but in the Cosmere Discussion sub-forum. I will ask mods to move it there for you.

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

 

Spoiler

2. Sigzil uses the Dawnshard to do something, we don't know exactly what. But, we know Hoid used the Dawnshard to help splinter Adonalsium. My thoughts are that Sigzil used the Dawnshard to splinter one or two of the Shards, or a combination of shards (e.g., the "War Shard" after Odium and the splinters of Honor fuse, or Cultivation if she is aligned with Todium). 

 a. Note that when Sigzil uses the Dawnshard, he is no longer bonded with his Honor Spren (that we know of). Splinters of Honor at that time maybe already came back together, unbonding the Windrunners?

 

TSM:

10 hours ago, discord=more_preservation said:

3. A deathrattle states: "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." Three of sixteen = the shards of Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. The "Broken One" will be vessel of whoever takes up the combined shard they form. Maybe Kaladin? Maybe Dalinar, who gets broken by Odium in Book 5? It's anyone's guess who the vessel will be.

Well, Honor is now broken. Or it's all about Odium, as Odium is damaged too because of his fights. You don't have to unite all Shards to create the Broken One (how would that be the Broken One), just unite Honor's broken pieces or Ascend to some of them, like maybe what Dalinar did in OB. Moreover Dalinar alone can unite and merge Shards together as a Bondsmith, he doesn't need any Dawnshards for that:

Anyway I think it's possible for someone to unite all 3 Shards of Roshar, Cosmere might aim in that direction IF Adonalsium is ever to be restored. However I think it's more likely that just Odium and Honor will merge without merging with Cultivation. To Ascend to a Shard one has to have a very strong Connection to it and deep understanding of its nature - just because Dalinar was touched by Cultivation doesn't mean he has this strong Connection and needed understanding of what Cultivation represents. I doubt he would be able to Ascend to that Shard. But in my opinion he is well fitted to both Odium and Honor.

22 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You're making a lot of assumptions namely that we know what Atum unadulterated does.  We have no guarantee that has anything to actually do  Into the spiritual realm. 

All we know so far is that when combined with alomantic metal  It reverses the target. So electrum  Combined with atium causes you to see the future of others instead of yourself.. Combining it with gold allows you to see the past others instead of yourself. presumably is the same for all alomatic metals. 

We do know what pure Atium does - it was written on the Allomantic table. Pure Atium grants expansive vision of the future and enhances one's mind to process that information. Even in WoBs it was stated that we've seen the same effect when Elend burns Atium-electrum alloy with duralumin; pure Atium does the same thing. It pulls you into SR allowing you to see the future in its fullest.

https://coppermind.net/w/images/Table_of_Allomantic_Metals.jpeg

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yup, I said it; Atium (the pure, non-alloyed form) is better than Lerasium. 

Or, at least it has a far greater potential, in my opinion. 

Both God Metals are quite useful in their own right; Atium can be used to see and comprehend the SR while Lerasium allows you to make permanent changes to your Spiritweb. 

And I think most people see Lerasium as the superior metal because it grants permanent, powerful Invested abilities with pretty much no downside, while Atium is used up in a flash.

I used to think this way too until I realized something; Atium gives knowledge and comprehension. That means a lot, I believe. 

What's a Dawnshard's biggest power? Granting the knowledge and comprehension of a deity.

And so, I think pure Atium may be able to do something similar, though on a smaller scale.

Want to use a highly, highly advanced Awakening Command to, oh, say recreate Nightblood? Atium vision grants you the knowledge and ability to use it.

Want to know how to Bondsmith your way to Ascension? Atium. Boom. Knowledge. 

Want to know how to Forge yourself into a only borderline possible yet much more powerful version of yourself? Atium again. 

Want to know how to crack Hemalurgic Compounding, add multiple Hemalurgic charges or powers in a single spike, add more than 5 spikes to a person, evade the Flaw, add +500 IQ via Hemalurgic copper (while remaining somewhat human), or otherwise rewrite a Spiritweb in literally any way you want? You probably know by now; Atium. 

Even if you don't have another form of Investiture as your disposal to gain insight into, you could learn the next leap in technological advancement for your civilization (with you owning its patented rights,  of course), know what to do regarding a close personal matter, or simply gain a greater insight into how the Cosmere works.

Have I convinced anyone else to join team Atium over team Lerasium yet?

Edit: Hmm, I get the feeling that people are voting without actually checking my argument. . . 

Disagree. Atium shows you the future, not knowledge directly, just the future and gives you the ability to comprehend it. Just because you want something doesn't mean it will happen in your future - all you might see is that you will never achieve what you're looking for. It's not knowledge you gain, it's the future which becomes open to you, thus providing you with information to make a decision at the right moment. But Atium will NOT give you the precise way and words of the Command to Awaken another Nightblood, it may ONLY show you the way to achieve that among thousands of possible ways where you won't do that, if it's even possible for you. But then we don't know to what extend Atium shows you the future, or rather whose future Atium shows you - yours like electrum does, someone else's like Atium-electrum alloy, or both? This detail might make it more restrictive.

Seeing the future is powerful and very dangerous, not just for your opponents but for you as well. Relying on your own future sight too much will blind you and will eventually cause your downfall, as you will for sure miss a possibility, or your vision will be clouded by someone else's future sight. We've seen this multiple times in books, the future is not set in metal and seeing it doesn't make you invincible, nor will your wishes come true. It takes an infinite mind to comprehend what you see, Atium brings you nowhere near that level, even Shards are short of if and they've been misled by their own future sight on many occasions. Relying too much on a fragile and distant maybe is very risky. Too risky. 

That's why I will choose Lerasium - not just for Mistborn powers, but for the ability to modify my spirit web. That's more powerful than an uncertain and distant possibility once seen with Atium. 

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

Could you use hemalurgy to bond a radiant spren?

Yes, but as said by Duxredux, the spren can just break the bond at will. You can steal a dead Shardblade, but if you want to steal Surgebinding powers, you would have to steal both the bond from a Radiant (which is Connection) and the power from a spren, which would require you to use two spikes. 

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

How large (or small) can a spike be for it to be effective?

We don't know. They can be quite small or irregular, but I guess they have to be small enough to precisely pierce the binding point you're aiming for. Hitting two different binding points at once would make the spike not work - heart has 4 points for example. 

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

Can you steal an attribute from someone who has been spiked and take that power? For example, if I spiked someone who was using a steel spike to give them pewter could it take the pewter?

No, the power is contained in the spike, it's not really a part of your soul, as it's not yours. It's in the spike so you would have to take that spike out and spike yourself with it to get that power. 

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

Completely unrelated to hemalurgy, how does compounding a coppermind work?

We don't know. Some theorize that it creates an ideal copy of a memory, some think it creates a vision-like state in which you can relive that memory, but we don't know in the end. By Brandon's words, not every attribute compounded does something spectacular or useful.

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Atium doesn’t fit into the 16 metals

This, this is precisely why it matters. Atium doesn't fit. Everyone in the world always wondered about how weird Atium is compared to other metals and that was a clue that Elend and Vin needed to realize something weird is happening. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

then Vin presumably influenced him into going to the Pits of Hathsin to fulfill Leras’ plan.

Vin didn't know Leras' plan. She was surprised that Elend somehow found a whole army capable of burning Atium. She had no idea what was needed to be done. HoA ch 81:

Quote

A figure in white slowly stepped out into the ash, brilliant white cape fluttering. He held a sword in one hand.
Elend! she tried to cry at him. No! Go back! Charging them is madness! You'll be killed!
[...]
Somehow, Elend had found an entire army who could burn atium.

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

So why not go the extra step and create Mistborn?

The out-of-universe reason is that Brandon wanted it that way so it happened. You can't really consider out-of-universe reason as all explanations can do is to point out in-universe reason. And that simply is that Mistborn weren't needed. Mistborn would be a distraction. Elend had never burnt Atium before, he knew Atium for its economic value, not as a powerful weapon - he was a Mistborn but wasn't thinking like a Mistborn. If Demoux was a Mistborn, the vials of metals he got to burn would work and Elend would have never questioned why Demoux was Snapped. Elend only started to think of burning Atium after he started to think why Demoux was unable to burn his vial of metals:

Quote

Why can't I do it? Elend thought with frustration. I spend a year searching out storage caverns to provide food, only to end up trapped with my people starving. I search all that time looking for the atium—hoping to use it to buy safety for my people—and then I find it too late to spend it on anything.
Too late. . . . He paused, glancing back toward the metal plate in the floor.
Years searching for . . . atium.
None of the metals Demoux had given his soldiers had worked. Elend had been working under the assumption that Demoux's group would be like the other mistfallen back in Urteau—that they'd be composed of all kinds of Mistings. Yet, there had been something dif erent about Demoux's group. They had fallen sick for far longer than the others.
Elend pushed forward, rushing past Sazed, grabbing a handful of beads. A vast wealth, unlike anything any man had ever possessed. Valuable for its rarity. Valuable for its economic power. Valuable for its Allomancy.
[...]
Two hundred and eighty men, Elend thought. Sent away from my army because of all the ones who fell sick, they were the most sick. Sixteen days.
Two hundred and eighty men. One-sixteenth of those who fell sick. One out of sixteen Allomantic metals.
Yomen had proven that there was such a thing as an atium Misting. If Elend hadn't been so distracted, he would have made the connection earlier. If one out of sixteen who fell sick remained that way the longest, would that not imply that they'd gained the most powerful of the sixteen abilities?

The whole reason Elend was able to connect the dots, was because Demoux was unable to burn any other metals and all other clues regarding the number 16 appearing over and over again. If Preservation had thrown Mistborn into the mix, there would be no 16, there would be no thinking "why Demoux wasn't able to burn anything," there would be no burning entire Atium stock away. There would be just an army of Mistborn.

Moreover even earlier If Demoux and his men were turned into Mistborn, they might have realized this earlier at some point (just like Vin, from traces amounts of metals) and Elend would have never sent them back to Luthadel, they would have never ended at the place where Atium was. Moreover, Preservation had set Mistsnapping to work without his intervention, as he knew he would lose his mind. It had to work as well as it could and forcing it to Snap Mistborn would just strain the system, require too much power and it could be potentially more deadly than normal Snapping as more power had to be pushed into people, giving Ruin a better opportunity to twist it. I fully believe that Snapping Mistborn would not work to fulfill Preservation's plan - it's not a sign as obvious as Mistings, no number 16, no thinking "what metal could they be able to burn" etc. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Also, if it was an army of Mistborn it would perfectly reference the title of the series. And that would make me happy lol.

Oh, so I have no explanation that would satisfy you, if that's what you mean. 

10 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I don’t believe any of this for a second. There are many implications that indicate Leras wasn't just setting the plan in motion, he was actively facilitating it. Everything he did with Kelsier (pits, shadow, vision) and his choice of Vin were active and happening right now rather than thousands of years ago.

Secret History confirms he “made it work last time” with the Lord Ruler - maneuvering Rashek into the position of Ascending and preventing Ruin’s freedom. It confirms that back then, he predicted Alendi would give up the power.

He did that every 1024 years, he prepared someone to take up the power to use it to maintain the status quo. This was solely because his mind was gone and he was unable to remember what his end plan was. He didn't act because of his plan, he acted because he wanted to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered for him at this point. He only hoped that once Ruin escapes, his plan would be enough to stop him, not knowing what it was. Just go back and reread the first few chapters. Leras keeps repeating that Ruin can't escape, that Vin has to use the power and he is working only to prepare Vin for her role in maintaining the prison. He was totally stunned and frightened when Rashek died. Leras was dead at this point, he was unable to work on his plan that he didn't remember. Kelsier was just a happy accident that ultimately proved to be what his plan needed.  

The thing with Rashek wasn't pre-planned action, it was a last ditch attempt to stop Alendi from freeing Ruin after Leras had realized that Alendi won't do what he should have done. It happened with Vin as well - Sazed was Leras' failed attempt to stop Vin from freeing Ruin, but this time Ruin was ready for it and had Marsh in a position to stop Sazed - something that he missed during Alendi's times. 

I don't believe that Preservation's plan was specifically about Vin and Sazed, rather it was general enough to help people win against Ruin, no matter when Ruin is freed. If Vin were to use the power of the Well instead of releasing it, the plan would still exist 1024 years later and other people would be there to act on it. The plan was just a hope, a hope that people would see clues left for them and use them against Ruin. It might not have worked as well as it worked with Vin and Sazed, but there would still be people capable of doing what was necessary to do - because all people on Scadrial have both Ruin and Preservation on them, all are capable to destroy to protect just like Vin did, all are capable to understand the nature of both Shards as they all are made of their essence.

That's also how the future sight works, it gives you possibilities, not certain futures. Predicting how one specific person would be able to Ascend seems too much, but predicting someone, sometime will do this, if proper actions are taken and clues are left for them feels just right to me. If Alendi were to free Ruin, who knows, it might have ended with Rashek as a dual-Vessel. Or maybe Kwaan who back then played the same role as Sazed? Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed. In different times there would be others like them.

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

There’s this line after Vin frees Ruin: “It was going to happen,” Preservation said. “I thought… Maybe…” 

To me, this indicates Leras predicted Ruin would break free this cycle. Even before he imprisoned Ruin, he knew he would break free one day. That the Well of Ascension would only delay Ruin. 

Yes, Leras knew Ati's escape was inevitable, but he hoped he could have delayed it this time as well, just like he delayed it 1024 years ago with Alendi and Rashek. He didn't know it would happen now.

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Leras did do something. He programmed the Mists to dripfeed into Vin, Connecting her to Preservation.

Just as it happened with Alendi, WoB above. 

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

As for Leras not predicting Rashek would soon die… that’s an interesting assumption. It’s true Leras said he loves Rashek’s immortality and stability, even though he disagrees with Rashek’s actions. But not wanting to kill Rashek doesn’t match up with having to thread through The Plan - to get both Shards into the grasps of The Hero of Ages.

Saying that Leras didn’t remember the plan is a bit… complicated. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t threading through the plan or knew aspects of it. Remember that Fuzz is a shadow of the Vessel who chose Vin as his successor, or commanded Kelsier to survive, or put Rashek into place.

Let’s be honest, Rashek needed to die for The Hero of Ages to be created. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Well. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Pits of Hathsin or Trustwarren. He would’ve killed Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed - essential pieces of Leras’ plan. 

Rashek was the prophesied Hero of the Ages - as per Terris original prophecies (WoB above). In my opinion Rashek, Vin and Sazed were all Hero of the Ages, but each had a different role to play. If Rashek took up the power again, he would have prevented Ruin from escaping, delaying the plan for another 1024 years - and that's what Leras at this time wanted. You said it yourself, Leras was at this point just a shadow of a Vessel he once was, his mind was mostly gone and he was unable to act on the plan he created himself. The plan was meant to give people hope and a fighting chance against Ruin without Leras's intervention, as he knew he would be dead by that point. 

It's fine to disagree. This is my interpretation of how Preservation's plan was set up, Terris prophecies and Hero of Ages title, the sources give us enough wiggle room to interpret them differently as we want. We probably will never see the full picture, so that's what we have to do. It's fun to read your interpretation. I'm glad to see you were enjoying the story and shedding new light for you on events of Era 1. 

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

I kinda think what she does and what UnMaking seems to be (at least with the Sibling in RoW) are essentially the same thing.  

30 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Agreed - she is unmaking lesser spren. 

The unmaking process seems to be an additive process, rather than subtraction / rearranging. When we see Raboniel unmaking the Sibling she is only adding Odiums Investiture to the spren, which would ultimately warp the very essence (personality, disposition, memories) of the creatur

I think they are the same process but on different levels. Both invest and corrupt with Odium's investiture, but Unmaking seems bigger than Enlightening. Moreover Unmaking isn't just about investing, it's about ripping the mind to pieces, Transforming the soul - Sja-Anat fears she will be Unmade by Odium if he ever catches her red handed. RoW I-2:

Quote

If Odium caught her in a verifiable lie, he would unmake her again. Steal her memory. Rip her to pieces. But in so doing, he would lose a useful tool.

And because Unmaking Sja-Anat would cost Odium a useful tool, it seems like Unmaking is losing investiture in the process, it's a subtractive process. On the other hand Glys doesn’t remember the moment of Enlightening well, but he’s never said if he forgot everything before it. I feel like an eternal True Spren would never agree to be essentially killed if Enlightening would be like Unmaking. To me at least it seems like Enlightening isn’t that brutal as Unmaking and it just changes the spren, without killing them, stealing their memories or destroying their mind  - it’s additive, their gaining a piece of Odium’s investiture, while the rest of their soul remain still of Honor and Cultivation - Unmades are of Odium, at least mostly. However we have too little information to determine how similar those processes are. But I agree, they are essentially the same, based on the same mechanism of corruption.

2 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

If Harmony's Intent did shift to Discord, would he get a new God Metal and Perpendicularity? 

I think it's possible for Harmonium to change property. Harmonium is unstable because it represents two halves of Sazed that aren't fitted together well. If as a Discord he manages to mix them better than Harmony, Harmonium might become more stable, if not it should not change at all. The name will probably change to Discodrium no matter what. Either way both options are likely, it depends.

But a perpendicularity would stay as it is - unless he chooses to relocate it, or create a new one. A perpendicularity is not about the nature of a Shard, it's just a result of a massive concentration of investiture in one place, that pierces realms.

Edit:

2 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

Or is his metal and location just linked to the fact that he holds both Shards, not the Intent of the joined shard? 

Properties of a god metal are linked to the Intent (and intents of both Shards Ruin and Preservation that made Harmony/Discord), location of a perpendicularity is not - it's either deliberately chosen spot, or natural manifestation because there was a lot of investiture in that area (like for example there was Ruin's perpendicularity in the Pits of Hathsin, which was destroyed when Kelsier destroyed the Pits - no investiture, no perpendicularity).

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Can Sja anat corrupt other unmade? and what would happen if she did?

I don't think so. Sja-anat Corrupting Oathgate spren was already edging on her limits - she was never able to Corrupt such a powerful spren before. Unmades are vastly more powerful than Oathgate spren. They would be comparably invested to her and that should make them too hard to corrupt.

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

can she also un-corrupt spren?

It's unknown if she can reverse the enlightenment of a spren. It seems like this is permanent - she invests/corrupts them with Odium's investiture.

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

could she even corrupt Oduim or Honor or other like them?

That's out of the question. She is just a tiny Splinter of Odium compared to the full power of a Shard. Shardic power is basically infinite. Sja-Anat knows Odium can destroy her, if he even catches her betraying him. 

5 hours ago, UltimateArchivist said:

In my studies, a pattern has emerged concerning connection and Shards. I am certain you have all noticed it; it is not all that obscure. However, a question has arisen. When Kelsier sought to take up the Shard of Preservation, he needed to use an instrument like the Ire's Orb to Connect to Preservation. Could a Bondsmith or a Connector Ferring therefore use Connection to Ascend to a Shard?

I believe so, but only if a Shard is without a Vessel at that moment. You wouldn't be able to Ascend to a Shard that has a Vessel. But as seen by the example of Kelsier, just because he had strong enough Connection to Ascend, it doesn't mean he was a good Vessel - the Shard resisted him as he didn't understand the nature of Preservation. It nearly slipped out of his hands a few times. Connection is just one thing, understanding and strong will are also needed to properly control a Shard. 

5 hours ago, UltimateArchivist said:

In addition, would it be possible to use connection in such a way to reconstitute a Splintered Shard and rebuild?

Yes. 

5 hours ago, UltimateArchivist said:

Does anyone have any idea of any possible consequences or attribute of the reconstituted Shard?

We don't know. 

4 hours ago, Nomad8 said:

So I recently finished reading the Sunlit Mas (which was amazing) and I was left wondering what would happen if one of the charred were left out in the sun on Canticle? Would it leave both the cinder-heart and a sunheart or just the cinder-heart?

I think they would make a sunheart charged with corrupted investiture, as cinderhearts are made out of corrupted investiture. 

1 minute ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

"Long, deeply frustrated sigh"

Okay, one more time: We don't know exactly how many Spikes a person can get powers from, what you are describing is not on how many Spikes you can have in total, it is the limit how many spikes you can have before becoming vulnerable to direct external control, 4 spikes is the minimum needed to control someone through the cracks in the spiritweb. The Koloss can be controlled through emotional allomancy due to having 4 spikes, the Steel Inquisitors can be controlled due to having 11 Spikes.

What the Set managed to do was use Trellium to prevent themselves from being controlled by Harmony when they use 4 or more Spikes, though this came at the cost of being controllable by Autonomy when near-dead.

Dumad, the Set's 'Anti-Wax' member in TLM had 5 Spikes, granting him allomantic pewter, steel, duralumin, bronze and chromium. That means the 'power spike' limit is a minimum of 5 spikes, maybe more but we don't know for sure. It's probably less than 11 in my opinion.

I've seen people make this assumption several times before, and it's still not correct. 4 Spikes and you're vulnerable to mind-control, the limit of power spikes is unknown.

True, you're right, my mistake. 

@JustQuestin2004 answered your questions already, but I'm gonna do what I do the best - add more and throw some WoBs at you!

7 hours ago, laserz667 said:

How many spikes can one person hold? 

There is a limit on how many spikes a soul can handle. The more spikes you have, the greater the mental and physical impacts of them are on you. They break you down, they crack your soul - that's why with many spikes a linchpin spike is needed as it holds your soul together. After the Catacendre the limit is 4 spikes, after which a soul would reject any new spikes, but the Set found the way to sidestep this limit by using a Trellium spike, which allowed them to have 5 spikes. But there are ways of magnifying a charge of one spike, you can potentially even steal multiple powers with a single spike, or multiple chargers, but this was not discovered yet. TLM Ars Arcanum:

Quote

Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony. The level of corruption of a soul that was possible in ancient days is no longer viable; if too many spikes are added, souls stop gaining powers. Marsh doesn’t think this is a conscious decision on Harmony’s part.
Indeed, I think this is beyond the conscious abilities of even a Shard. Instead, I believe this is the nature of souls (read: the Invested portion of a person’s nature) and their balance with the cosmere. In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spirit- webs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable.
At any rate, the end result is a limit on the number of spikes a person can hold without external intervention

7 hours ago, laserz667 said:

What happens if a spike is melted down and possibly combined with another metal?

A molten metal can still be used in Metallic Arts, but that's not a pleasant experience. However just melting a spike down, reshaping and letting it cool down won't change the charge of the spike  and it would still be usable, with some decay happening. Alloying it with another metal would mess things up. Just like in metalminds, the charge is tied to the atomic structure of a metal. If you take an iron spike that holds strength and mix it with carbon to get a steel spike, that charge is now not aligned with the atomic structure of a spike, as steel steals physical Allomantic powers. So the charge would be there, but you most likely won't be able to use it. If you then melt that steel spike down and separate iron from carbon, the iron spike would regain its usability.

However, It's worth noticing that Hemalurgy might be different than how it works with Metalminds - in BoM it was said that ReLuur's Blessings are made out of pewter (steals physical Feruchemical powers), which is not a metal used for Blessings. Moreover Paalm (Lessie) had her one spike made out of Trellium, charged with either Allomancy or Feruchemy, that worked like a Blessing to her. We don't know how they made it, or what was ReLuur's Blessing charged with, but this shows us that there are other uses for metals outside of what the HoA Hemalurgic table has shown us, and it's possible that melting and alloying a charged spike might not make it unusable, as it would happen with Metalminds. Binding Points and Intent plays a crucial role in Hemalurgy, so you might be able to do fancy stuff with metals outside of their traditional use.

7 hours ago, laserz667 said:

How does stealing identity work?

We don't have a full picture yet. This is something that Brandon keeps for the future books. What we know is that Identity works like some kind of encryption key, that codes investiture to a person, so that only they can use it. A Feruchemist fills a metalmind that only he can use, because investiture in that metalmind is keyed to them via Identity. If you steal Identity you would be able to use all metalminds, Breaths, or some other investiture they were using, IF you also have that power yourself. So if you are a Feruchemist, you would be able to use all metalminds of a person you've stolen Identity from. But stealing anything from them will carry a part of their identity, often enough so you can also use their metalminds - so just stealing their Feruchemical powers will give you enough of their Identity that you would be able to access their metalminds of this specific power you have stolen (and powers you already have). 

What's more, is that the victim if they survive, now would likely  have no Identity at all. That makes them susceptible to all kinds of interactions in Cosmere. But also it might be possible that for example if they retain their Feruchemical powers, they would be creating from this point on unkeyed metalminds - metalminds that all other Feruchemist with that power can access. Being without Identity also makes it easier for you to use someone else's stuff, but some other steps might be needed too.

Moreover, Identity seems to be tied to healing in a big way, so by stealing someone else's Identity, you might be able to change the way you can heal yourself. This is more speculative but Brandon confirmed that healing is affected by Identity in some way. 

BoM ch 3:

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“Identity,” VenDell said, slapping his reed against the wall, casting a shadow on the image. “Lord Ladrian, could another Feruchemist use your metalminds?”
“Of course not,” Wax said. “Everyone knows that.”
“Why?”
“Well … because. They’re mine.”
[...]
“The raw power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy,” VenDell said, “is something we call Investiture. This is very important, as in Feruchemy, an individual’s Investiture is keyed specifically to them. To what we call Identity.”
“You’ve made me curious,” Wax said, looking at the wall as VenDell leisurely walked back to his machine. “How does it know? My metalminds … do they recognize me?”
“After a fashion,” VenDell said, changing the image to one of a Feruchemist tapping strength. The woman’s muscles had grown to several times their normal size as she lifted a horse above her head. “Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.”
“So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…”
“They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.”
“So they could use anyone’s metalmind?” Marasi asked.
“Possibly,” VenDell said. [...]
“Some have been experimenting with your idea,” VenDell said, “and early results are promising."

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

No, I don't think that Allomantically Burning a pure Godmetal will necessarily grant you access to the system directly. I think that there are individual ways to use the pure form of each Godmetal to access (or, I suppose, just improve the use of as some people have argued) the magic system they're tied to; Lerasium you ingest, but Tanavastium you Bond, just like with a Spren. 

Could be that Edglium you Command with "your Breath become mine" or something like that.

Hmm I don't think so, but I don't really have anything. You ingest every god metal, just like every god metal can be used in Hemalurgy or Feruchemy, but that's the nature of Metallic Arts specifically which are focused on metals. Burning god metals however isn't of Allomancy, but in my mind Allomancy and burning god metals use the same mechanism to get the power into the soul. So I think you have the opposite way of thinking - because god metals are metals they can be used in Metallic Arts, as those three arts are uniquely focused on metals.

I was writing my incoherent thoughts here, but they didn't really make any sense. I just stop here, after trying to rewrite it several times now - my mind clearly isn't in shape today. I just feel like what you are proposing is too much, but I can't really put a finger on the issue here. God metals are more about investiture in general, less about their specific invested art. They aren't tied to their magic system, they don't have it, they are tied to their Shard who manifests in a few different ways - physical investiture is just one manifestation of a Shard, invested art is another one.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

That is the electrum/Atium alloy I believe, not the purified form of the Godmetal. 

Oh yes, my bad. Buuuut being nitpicky here, Eland did strike Marsh at the end, but chose to not kill him because he knew Marsh had to kill him. So you can still fight using pure Atium's future sight and get the outcome you want. 

16 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So WHY does Lerasium draw the magic, so to speak, out of godmetals and grant access to those magics. If it's an act of preserving those magics (into a person), what does that say about the nature of godmetals. That feels significant to me. The OP is not far off from true, as long as Lerasium is involved.

The way I see it is that Lerasium forges a Connection to something - in its pure form it Connects you to Preservation, which makes you a Mistborn. In alloyed forms this is overwritten and it Connects you to a Shard associated with the second alloy component, like to Autonomy if you mixed it with Bavadinium. And because Connection is what often grants you invested arts, you gain them when burning alloyed Lerasium. So in my opinion the side effect is that you gain invested arts, but the main effect that you can do fancy stuff with is that Learsium changes your spirit web and forges a Connection.

22 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Another question I have is what happens to Atium when it's alloyed with Lerasium and burnt. At one point, I would have thought you cannot allow them as their Intents are diametrically opposed, but if you can blend stormlight and voidlight, I am sure you can allow Atium and Lerasium. Would you be able to suck out other's allomancy? Any magic system? I dunno, just spitballing here. 

I believe it would make you into a Feruchemist. We know Allomancy happens because of the Preservation's extra investiture in people's souls, Feruchemy however is a balanced system between two Shards. It seems to me that to have Feruchemy, you have to be extra investiture of Ruin and Preservation in equal amounts. Scadrians have one already. Lerasium-Atium alloy's effect is overwritten with Atium's power, so if Lerasium invests you with Preservation's investiture, Lerasium-Atium might invest you with Ruin's investiture, equalizing Preservation's fragment and making you into a Feruchemist. That's my thoughts at least. The wording of this WoB, specifically the "instead of Ruin" seems to slightly point in that direction. 

Just now, robardin said:

Well it depends what you mean by "broken soul" versus "cracks" in the soul. As that WoB says, " it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in."

 

"Usually" traumatic experience, but not necessarily, and "crazy is not required", sure - but there still has to be "a place for the magic to go" in the soul. It could be something positive or happy - as per other WoBs as to ways that "Snapping" can happen for an Allomancer - and I think "seeping in" is a way of saying, it would take longer, eh?

I mean this part: "Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this." The bond does allow the magic to get into your soul, no matter if it's cracked or not. That's why "crazy is not required." Broken soul and cracks are the same in my mind. You don't need to have any cracks in your soul to bond an Aviar, you don't need anything to Awaken or hold Breaths etc - in general cracks in soul aren't always needed, for Radiants what matters the most is the will of a spren as the Nahel Bond allows the power to get into your soul even with no cracks in it. 

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

As for whether or not Kaladin counted as having "broken his ideals" in WoR in the same way that Shallan had done with her first Cryptic, that's an interesting question. You might say he went FURTHER along than Shallan in doing so: she was still able to summon her "Testamentblade" and to soulcast the goblet into blood and so on, while Kaladin couldn't do any Surgebinding or even to draw in Stormlight.

I think Kaladin couldn't do anything not only because of the state in which his bond was, but also because after he had fallen into chasms, the Stormfather took Syl and prevented her from going back to Kaladin. 

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

Either way, the statement "I was only as dead as your oaths", and the repeated theme in WoBs about reviving deadeyes as being nigh impossible without their original bonded Radiant, suggests that the "cabling" of the bond is still there, just dormant/blocked and not severed.

(Also that deadeyes were not a thing until the Recreance, hmmm.)

Agreed.

29 minutes ago, laserz667 said:

Perpendicularities connect all three realms, the cognitive,  the physical, and the spiritual; however, you can only travel between the physical and cognitive, not the spiritual. I wonder if you gathered enough investiture to travel all three realms.

What do you think? 

The Spiritual Realm is not a place, it's not somewhere you can go. In the Spiritual Realm distance and space is irrelevant, time and space are compound into one. You can't enter into the Spiritual Realm, but you can look into it through a Perpendicularity - that's the closest you can get to SR. What looking directly into SR would do? Elend did it at the end of HoA - he saw the past and the future, so that's something that might happen if you do this in a Perpendicularity.

WoBs:

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Honor's pure Godmetal is only seen in one way; the Honorblades. Which also happen to grant access/expand one's power in their Shard's respective magic system. 

You mean Honorblades grant access to Honor's magic or Tanavastium do that when burnt? The latter is unconfirmed.

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

and Trellium may possibly allow access to Sand Mastery or Star Marks.

Not on its own - you need to alloy it with Lerasium.

And because of this WoB I don't think burning pure god metals will give you their Shard's invested arts. Alloying them with Lerasium will do that, but alone that won't work in most cases. 

But assisting in their respected invested arts? More likely. It's less direct, unlike Lerasium and allows for a broader spectrum of possibilities. God metals are condensated power of Shards, they do one specific thing, connected to their Shard. I find it ironic that Atium grants enhanced future vision when Ruin is not so good at looking at the future, but that allows a person to be a perfect killing machine, which is fully aligned with Ruin. Atium helping with Hemalurgy is more like an accidental bonus in my opinion, than a true purpose of it - any ability that allows you to see the future helps with Hemalurgy, it doesn't have to come from Ruin. I would expect god metals to be more similar to Atium in what they are doing, than to Lerasium. Lerasium seems to be more unique in its ability to forge Connections and rewrite spirit web. It wouldn't be very original if all god metal do what Lerasium does - what's the point of Lerasium-Bavadinium alloy if Bavadinium alone can do the same? Lerasium-Atium alloy can most likely rewrite your spirit web with the power of Ruin, Atium doesn't do it on its own. All god metals do something else, but aligned with their Shard's intents. 

16 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I think Leras wanted Kelsier to become the Survivor of Hathsin as a gambit, as part of his plan. It’s why he told Kelsier to Survive, made him into a Cognitive Shadow, and showed him the future vision of going west to the Ire’s fortress. He wanted Kelsier to destroy all the atium in the Pits of Hathsin, restricting Ruin from one of the two ways he can regain his full power. He wanted Kelsier to get the Ire’s orb, artificially Connecting himself to Preservation and serving as the middleman between Leras and Vin. Ensuring Vin gets the Shard before Ruin Splinters it. 

I also think Preservation fueled Kelsier’s Allomancy in the Pits, with the mists. And Snapped him into a Mistborn at that moment, like how he theoretically Snapped Vin during her birth.

Interesting, it's possible, but judging by how Leras behaved in SH, by that he didn't remember what was the plan, was just hoping people would recognize it without his intervention, or by that he didn't wanted to preserve Kelsier from going into the Beyond until Kelsier showed an unbreakable will to save himself and convinced Leras to made him into a CS, I think at that point Leras was too far gone to do anything as a part of his plan - he didn't know what his plan was. I think it would be more like what happened at the Well at the beginning of SH - Leras was just impressed by Kelsier's actions and just felt he deserved to be preserved, not knowing he would ultimately serve a role in his plan. Leras didn't predict Rashek would die, he didn't predict Ruin would be soon freed, he didn't know he needed to do anything this time as he thought Rashek would Ascend again, thus maintaining the status quo.

12 hours ago, Franklin said:

Szeth can speak with sword nimi, does that mean they are bonded? like how someone can bond with a spren? and if he is bonded with sword nimi, would that interfere with also being bonded with a spren?

Yes, Szeth is bonded with Nightblood, but that's not a Nahel Bond. It's a bit different than that, but working by the same mechanism. This bond allows Nightblood to read Szeth's mind or sense where he is for example. This would not interfere with a spren bond, a person can be even bonded to multiple spren at once and that would cause no problems. 

21 hours ago, robardin said:

The way the Nahel bond has been described to work, by analogy, is that the spren "fills in the cracks" in a person's soul. Which requires "cracking" the soul in the first place, with pain, conflict, doubt, etc. And each advancement in Ideal represents a further, deeper "soul cracking".

When Kaladin is struggling to reach the Third Ideal, to reconcile and to overcome his feeling that he's betrayed his Second Ideal in agreeing to stand by and let Moash proceed with his plot with Graves to murder Elhokar, he complains to Syl that she's asking too much of him, that he's not like the Radiants of old, "some glorious knight of ancient days". That he's a broken man.

And she replies, "That's what they all were, silly."

To bond different kinds of living, sentient spren at the same time seems very difficult, then. As we saw in RoW, spren can even decline to engage in an otherwise possible bond because the person is already "spoken for" by another one.

I think to do this might require some force. As in, something on the level of Crazy Unchained Ishar Doing Nahel Bond Manipulation, as he nearly did in RoW with Dalinar/SF.

Just to point out, having a broken soul isn't required to become a Knight Radiant - the Nahel Bond bypasses this requirement and allows the power to seep into the soul of the knight. It helps, but it isn't needed as a sapient entity is also involved who can choose - a spren. 

13 hours ago, robardin said:

That Moash scenario made we wonder, though: supposing Kaladin had gotten recruited by the Skybreakers right after “killing” Syl (no longer holding an active Nahel bond), upon emerging from the chasms with Shallan, and something causes Moash’s plot to be delayed by a few weeks.

Imagine if he progresses rapidly as Szeth did, and then does in fact swear the Third Ideal of the Skyhbreakers to follow Dalinar’s vision of justice (which results in protecting Elhokar, but for a different reason).

He then swears to pursue a Crusade against Amaram, Roshone, and other “lying lighteyes” who have abused their station…

…and then somewhere along the way, feels compelled to protect Roshone against Moash despite his Crusade, after finding him doing his best to help the people of Hearthstone deal with the singer occupation.

I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.

I was only as dead as your oaths, Kaladin.

Could he revive his “dead” bond with Syl at that point, and become a Windrunner and a Skybreaker of the Third Ideal? It would certainly mess up his pursuit of his Crussde, though!

And what would you call him? A Skyrunner? Windbreaker? LOL

I am not 100$ sure Kaladin has fully broken his Ideals at this point. He was close, but not there yet, he didn't do what Shallan did when she fully broke her bond. Kaladin had sworn two conflicting oaths to two different people, but he still wanted to protect people. That's why he had to just swear the 3rd Ideal and his bond and Syl were back working. If he were to follow and assist in assassination of Elhokar, then his bond with Syl would have been fully broken, just like Shallan's bond with Testament - swearing the 3rd Ideal would not work anymore, Syl would be a deadeye. At least that's what I think was happening. In that case, if Kaladin were to fully break his bond with Syl, he would have to reswear all of his Ideals to bring her back to life. 

7 hours ago, Meekers said:

But regarding the tones of Honor, Cultivation and Odium- and how they all interact with eachother, how do you think that would look on Scadrial? Or anywhere else.

The pure tone of Preservation was most likely what Vin felt with A-bronze as the pulses the Well of Ascension was sending. Allomantic pulses are also related to the pure tone of Preservation. Feruchemy would most likely send out tones related to merged tones of Preservation and Ruin (as Feruchemy is a balanced system between Ruin and Preservation), while Hemalurgy might be related to the pure tone of Ruin.

7 hours ago, Meekers said:

like if a mistborn were able to hum the pure tone of Preservation what would that look like? Or a hemalurgist with Ruin’s etc.

personally, I think it’d be a stretch to say it does something to the injested metals but maybe it would be a method of absorbing the mists? Similar to how the different lights reacted to it?

What happened when Navani sang a pure tone of Honor? Not much. What happened when Raboniel sang a pure tone of Odium? Not much. Those tones allowed them to manipulate and move lights associated with them, but it didn't give them any boost of investiture. So a Mistborn would not get invested just by singing. However it's possible it would allow them to manipulate Mists to some extent, but it's unlikely they would be able to draw power from Mists directly. One needs to be strongly Connected to Preservation and Mists to do that - like Vin.

7 hours ago, Meekers said:

anti-tone/ resonance? I wonder how the repulsiveness would look like. Like would a Anti-Ruin tone really mess with a steel-inquisitor? 

Yes. 100% it would hurt them just like it hurt Raboniel when she heard the anti-tone of Odium. But it should not break them or destroy their spikes, just hurt them really badly.

7 hours ago, Meekers said:

the deeper i think about this I wonder if a Singer could hear the tones on Scadrial, or if it’s because of their connection with Roshar. Likely no answers yet

They can, but they might have to be more invested to hear pure tones of Scadrial. But they would still be able to hear regular Rhythms even off-Roshar. 

6 hours ago, Meekers said:

Though, I wonder what prerequisites Vin met in being able to absorb the mists in the first place, other than just being looked at with interest by both Shards. 

Vin was chosen by Preservation to be its next Vessel. She was prepared for this role and that gave her Connection strong enough to draw power from Mists. HoA epilogue epigraphs:

Quote

Vin was special.

Preservation chose her from a very young age, as I have mentioned. I believe that he was grooming her to take his power. Yet, the mind of Preservation was very weak at that point, reduced only to the fragment that we knew as the mist spirit.

[...]

Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person's body to be able to accept the mists.

Vin wasn't the only one who ingested Mists, Wax did that too, but he was chosen by Harmony to be his Sword. It's more likely that Harmony directly made it happen, giving him strength necessary to work on his behalf, than he was naturally so strongly Connected to Mists like Vin was. He didn't breathe in Mists like Vin did, he didn't fuel his Allomancy with it, but they gave him strength and calmness, they were always there in the most important moments of his life. The Mists he took in were but a tiny drop compared to what Vin took. If I were to point out a moment from Era 2 where Wax breathes in some Mists, I would pick this from AoL ch 18. There are probably more moments like this but they aren't obvious and it's not confirmed if Wax ingested Mists in those moments, or it's more like Harmony's emotional Allomancy acting on him through Mists. 

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Waxillium breathed out, blowing the mists in front of him. What Miles had said bothered him: Is there any doubt we’ve been given this for a reason?
Waxillium gritted his teeth, then forced himself to stand. He felt better in the mists. The wounds didn’t seem so bad. The pain didn’t seem so sharp. But he was still unarmed. Still cornered. Still …

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Now that you mention it, it occurs to me that it should be possible for Seekers to learn to hear the rythms of Scadrial and other planets when burning bronze. 

They can hear Rhythms:

But Roshar is unique, Rhythms are uniquely strongly manifested on Roshar (4th WoB I've posted), so it should be much harder to pick them up on Scadrial.