Bliev

I love Shallan! I love her awkward teenagerdom. (FTR, I think BS does a pretty good job of representing teenagers and the combo of complexity and simplicity, maturity and immaturity, bravery and insecurity that I think is a hallmark of that time in most of our lives--Shallan is no different in this regard.) I love what a quick study she is and her innate drive to protect her brothers and to put others at their ease, either by making jokes or otherwise. I like how she sticks up for Adolin when Kal mocks him in WOR. I like how she doesn't get everything right. I like how her talent has become a source of her power, even if it's "traditionally" seen as a talent that isn't useful (drawing). I like her vulnerability and her strength. I just think she's a well-written character, and she's very relatable to me. And I'm glad to see her making progress at the end of OB. (And, I mean, an entire army of lightwoven characters? Which she sustains alone? That's unbelievable. Going after an unmade--touching it! Also unbelievable. She's pretty badass. lol)

@Starla I was just coming here to post similarly re: the WOB on this, which I think is related a lot to this. Brandon wanted Shallan to choose Adolin, and used the "triangle" as a plot point to demonstrate Shallan's personality/identity issues, not because he ever intended them to end up together. I know that's not at all how many readers interpreted it, of course. And it's true that once you release a book, you can't always control what interpretations people take from them. The below WOB is from the second you were referring to, posted here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/61704-uk-oathbringer-tour-forbidden-planet’s-london-megastore-2017-11-28/?do=findComment&comment=644684 For the record, I agree that I wish she didn't feel she needed Adolin to heal, it definitely seems more dependent than independent. Then again, we can't all be Jasnah and have her independence, I suppose. I see it a lot like how Dalinar healed and gained strength from Navani--once he let her in, and embraced her love and support, he was able to see himself as the man she saw. And sometimes that's just the impetus someone needs. Unconditional support--to give us a "comfy home base" free of judgment. Now, it remains to be seen whether Adolin will be that for her. But she thinks that he will be, and thus she makes her choice. Considering the overall theme of the book, I think the fact that she chooses at all is a major development for her. (my apologies to anyone for reiterating any points from pages 30-44, btw...I was keeping up for a bit and then sick kid made me miss a few days, lol)

@kari-no-sugata This WOB is an AMAZING get, IMHO, particularly given the debate occurring over on the OB Spoiler Boards re: Shallan's development during OB. Bravo, friend.

EXCELLENT questions! Can't wait to listen again to dissect them all.

I don’t think the corruption gives Odium control in a traditional sense, like (mistborn era 1 spoiler): or something. I think it may indeed affect their intent. Because it doesn’t seem that Odium knows about Sja-Anat’s convo with Shallan or that she didn’t kill them when they went through the gate (until later, and it’s implied that he’s “understanding” because she hadn’t corrupted such high spren before and they didn’t know what would happen really). So the unmade def have independent intent to some degree. But this mystery is definitely been on my mind—why does it matter what the lesser spren look like? Like you said—did not seem to affect their function. But Glys’s function seems to shift after he’s been corrupted. Need more info! Wish we didn’t have to wait 3 years. :-(

The gemstone archive epigraphs suggest, though, that the sibling was retreating because of the perceived worthiness of the KR, but not because it intended to. The Stormfather seems genuinely protective of them and says “you’ve hurt them enough”. This implies it wasn’t killed like the shard blade spren, but chose withdrawal because of that hurt. I wonder if it is the nature of fabrial magic in general, and people began to forcefully capture spren to make them do what they wanted, as opposed to having them choose to do that duty. And this is not honorable (the Stormfather mentions that the mark of Honor is choice and respecting and honoring your choices). Just something I’ve been thinking about, but maybe that’s too simplistic.

We know we have WOB that splinters often have their own intent, and I wonder if Odium intentionally splintered off some of his more "uncontrollable" components into the unmade to serve as his "servants" so to speak (e.g., lust for fighting, gluttony, lust for power). Odium might have done this because of the specific Rosharian magic which includes spren and Listeners who bond with spren, as a context-specific tactic, or this may have been in response to some other impetus (like serving as his "eyes and ears" from before he was trapped in the Rosharian system. Over the millennia, those splinters have continued in their very specific intent, but maybe without necessarily having the entirety of Odium's "divine hatred" to guide their actions. Hence the almost childlike, animalistic reactions that "the thrill" experiences when Dalinar addresses it at the end of OB. It only knows that it wants to rile the fury of fighting. It doesn't mean "harm" in that it hates people. It has one intent. And, like a puppy, almost, it appreciates being appreciated for doing that job well. Sja-Anat is obviously more "sentient" than "the thrill". But what was its original intent? You might be on to something in that it opens spren up to Odium's influence. I don't think that Sja-Anat, as a splinter herself, could give investiture to other spren, though? But maybe I'm wrong about that. Warbreaker spoilers: But this would suggest that Sja-Anat has unlimited investiture to grant. So, hard to tell.

I imagine that we will get to see Venli through Eshonai’s eyes as well—her motivations, what “broke”’her, and when she seemed to change. I am sure we will have Venli POV chapters too, as we did in OB. So I think it’ll be a win win. :-)

Maybe so. This is a wrench in the theory. Though, the Stormfather does say: When in a vision with Dalinar and Navani, meaning there are obviously things missing from his knowledge of that time. Maybe it was Honor’s will. Or a quirk. Or Odium’s doing. Or they do know and they’re right about the recreance. So many options. Gah

@Randall Thor I’m of the mind that Maya will be paramount to unlocking this mystery, if she can be revived. We might find that spren land has labored under misconceptions about the Recreance as much as the humans have. Or maybe not...

I think she will serve as an important reminder that the spren have also chosen sides, even if they’re not corrupted. I actually think that’s why she’s there. Yes, it was implied that it might be her order that’s making the others uncomfortable, but Malata’s convo with T, and the others’ trip through Shadesmar, gave us a teaser of spren politics that I hope we learn more of in book 4. Even Timbre alluding to her choice of Listener over Human because of betrayal is interesting here. I’m excited to see how they use her for this, and whether it goes in the direction I expect.

@Duke of Lizards Another pregnant woman here, and yes, I cried! At my desk in my office, no less. Thank goodness for closed doors! I also cried at the Jasnah/Renarin scene. Blah, hormones! haha

I just have to say it's nice to see someone else use the Stormlight "curses" in real life. I told my daughter yesterday that she needed to put her "storming shoes on" for goodness sakes, and my husband looked at me like I had three heads. haha! And, yes--sociology + psychology (I'm particularly interested in how this manifests itself in the workplace/business). Re: "the real topic", I think BS does a good job; it's one of the main reasons I've become such a fan. His female characters are much more self actualized. You have to actively fight these tropes because they are so strongly socialized into the psyche. I hope, actually, that they don't "ship" Jasnah with anyone else for that particular reason: she doesn't seem to "want" a husband, and many people/women don't. Does she need a "man"? I liked that BS did that with (war breaker "spoilers"): Complicated women are hard, particularly when so many fantasy readers are men/boys (we see this in comics too), where they have harder times identifying with female characters, particularly those who don't fit stereotypes/expectations, and who make them uncomfortable. I think BS is very good at making female characters that are easy for men to identify with, which I appreciate. I also like that he seems to be actively making female characters here (Jasnah, Venli) who may *not* be so easy for men to identify with. Because it shows the wide range of personalities that women can have--scholar, asexual, ambitious, etc. without making their arc center on love or affection or relationship, even if it's still the dominant cultural norm for women. Now, creating a new species of humanoid without the same cultural conventions (mate form, anyone??) makes that easier, I suppose! haha

@PhineasGage oh, definitely. I have a few presentations during the 08 and 16 US election cycles about gender norms, which were devoid of actual “politics” and more about how we perceive female leaders. Men tend to get more leeway to be likable and competent, but there is also definite backlash (some of my published research suggests that “nice” “humble” guys make less money and are less likely to be promoted than jerky dudes are, for instance. And yes, “jerky dudes” is a totally academic turn of phrase! Lmao). I am more familiar with academic articles on the topic, but i know there was a nice intro to the idea by Amy Cuddy and Peter Glick in the Boston globe recently: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/10/23/how-stereotypes-divide-and-conquer-women/cOqGosHTkBqaLSDCXT0WwI/story.html. They have a theory about stereotype content that is useful as background. :-) i could probably write my own book. Maybe i will. Post tenure, of course lol. Y’all can add your insights. It’ll be “gender norms in fantasy”. Hah

I believe she called him “bridgeman”, and also “captain”, but never “bridgeboy”. Which is an interesting mix of respect and insult. And after he called her “woman” and “insane”. With that said, yes, she does have a temper when crossed. For better or for worse.

But he did that for power. Because he was arrogant enough to believe that he was the only one who could “save” the world and then when it became clear that he was not, he chose power over Honor. Just as he did Way back on the battlefield with Kal’s soldiers. and if he did think that he was better because he was Vorin, etc., howis this perceived supremacy okay in his case, but not in Jasnah’s? You said you didn’t like how she treated people she deemed “beneath” her, but amaram was willing to kill those “beneath” him, not just condescend to them.

Be pretty danged honorable to sacrifice yourself for the greater good—playing some (really) long game to take Odium out forever. :-) but, that’s probably a stretch. Fun to consider though. :-)

I mean, those three spearman were a pretty darn big deal, though! A most pertinent betrayal, and for his own sake: he murdered them in cold blood so he could take the spoils. You can identify with his reasons—sacrifice a few darkeyes for the good of the kingdom, or rather, as his guilty look to Kal in that moment confirms, for his own adulation and edification, but I’m just finding it hard to justify being a fan of his but not finding Jasnah cold, i guess.

Also, Kal absolutely insults Jasnah in their meeting. She discusses a plan and he says: “woman, are you insane?” I tell you, if a man said that to me, I’d react more immediately and strongly than Jasnah did! Particularly if my particular strength was logic, and my particular fear was losing control of my brain. also, let’s not pretend that Kal doesn’t also insult and talk down to every light eyes he meets. Even Adolin, the nicest dude in the kingdom. Yes, he learns, but he’s not exactly accommodating to those he thinks are morally beneath him. Jasnah has been belittled, ostracized, and watched her father die in front of her eyes. She trudged through Shadesmar, alone. She was the only one seeking the truth of the Voidbringers before this started, and has bonded a spren long before Kal did. And he treats her like a “woman”. Of course she’s mad! But she holds it together. Mostly. ;-)

My theory on this is that though foresight is of Odium, he does not “control” it, unless his focus is on it. Shards are not omnipresent and omniscient in the same way as a “traditional” god, and if Sja-anat is a splinter with her own intent, and is the one corrupting the truth watcher spren, and she really wants to not be an enemy as she tells Shallan (which remains to be seen), then maybe he doesn’t know Renarin has any future sight. In fact, it might explain the truth watcher renowned secrecy: they knew there were real traitors among them even then, and they didn’t want Odium’s focus on them.

Pertinent, but as an aside, my area of academic research is related to gender and stereotyping, and it’s interesting how many similar tropes and stereotypes exist in Roshar as exist today. Of course part of that is that BS is a man raised on earth and filtering through that (lol) but the competence vs warmth dichotomy is so omnipresent (women are seen as either competent but cold, or incompetent/unreliable but warm/likable) even in fantasy. Hard to escape.

Particularly in the equivalent of medieval times! I mean, Alethi culture is pretty darn patriarchal, even if they do ascribe reading and writing to women—they are still “lesser than”. She refuses that. I love it. A woman before her time.

:-) If I didn’t feel like calling someone your spirit animal was disrespectful to Native cultures, Jasnah would be mine. :-) mid thirties, feminine yet badass, unapologetic scholar and heretic. Yes, i do love her! Haha

As a major Jasnah fan-girl, i concur with many who have explained their respect for her above. She’s widely regarded as brilliant and strong, and she knows that she knows more than most/all of them about what’s going on. She’s also the most advanced KR. But i love that she accepts what she doesn’t know and strives for perfection instead of believing she’s already perfect. That’s what keeps her from being “arrogant” to my mind. I also think it’s poignant that throughout WoR and part 1 of OB, Shallan is actively trying to be what Jasnah taught her to be: confident, less impulsive, seeking knowledge. Part of this is because i think Jasnah thought Shallan was an elsecaller squire, of sorts, but it’s actually exactly what Shallan does need to learn. She remits back to her childish chafing at authority when Jasnah returns—and that’s both of their faults. But i think it’s beautifully portrayed by BS from both of their perspectives.

I wrote this on another thread (pasted below, and including the link), but i really do find Odium and its intent fascinating for all the reasons you note. I interpreted this: //"Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."// As indicating "the burden of God's divine hatred"--in that it is everything that God "hates" and the anger shown in the hatred of it, so not just the emotion of hatred, but the embodiment of what God himself would proclaim to hate: selfishness, power, angry, murder, lust, emotion devoid of focus. All of this filtered through what Rayse himself hated--which is probably the idea of God himself and all who now embody portions of him/Adolnasium. It even seems like he's willing to give himself to others as the focus/object of their hate: "blame me--I did this" in order to channel that emotion into Odium's own power--a self-fulfilling cycle of hatred. Sustaining hatred at that level is too much. Which also, to me, would explain why Odium might have splintered off the more uncontrollable parts of god's hatred: gluttony/lust, passion for the kill, etc. They interfered with his ability to strategize. But I don't know about that. Those splinters now have their own separate intentions, which Odium obviously has no idea might act differently when divorced from his divine hatred.