Bliev

I think Odium is referring to Evi here as it’s what he immediately says after Dalinar hears “i forgive you” from the spirit realm. I think the “we” is Dalinar and Odium together. It follows contextually from the conversation just had (it is pages later, but chronologically immediately after).

I know this is completely devoid of actual evidence, but i started to think about this possibility when the archive mentioned that Honor was changing: What if Honor changed enough to “switch sides” so to speak? Not to support Odium, but the Parsh? Like the sky breakers? And then Odium used his unmade and the Fused to take him down when he didn’t expect it? i don’t know if his intent would let him betray an oath, though, as the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he cannot (and neither can Odium, for that matter).

I love Shallan’s arc too! She and Jasnah in WoK were my favorite sections, and I felt the same here. I felt like Shallan showed such depth and growth, and her scene

I don’t think Dalinar is reforming Adonalsium, but i do think, per some other comments throughout the Cosmere, that he is reforming “Honor” but with a slightly different intent. We know it takes millennia for a shard to change its holder, so this vessel (dalinar) who has been focused for awhile on unification, is filtering the remnants of Honor through a different intent. And i think that, in agreement with some of the above, that Cultivation has been “growing” him toward being a prepared vessel—like y’all said: playing a very very long game. Biding her time. I think Cultivation will be a poignant foil for Odium, but probably one he’s overlooked. She can cultivate what she needs, and has all the time in the world to do it. A little pruning here, a little there, and she has had 4000 years to do so.

I imagine that Axies, as a scholar studying spren, would be invaluable to Jasnah and her scholarly order beyond his general “being alive” state. I can imagine Jasnah and her scholar friends being super jealous of a being who can study for millennia and not worry about the inconvenience of death! I wonder how many books he’s written about his findings...lol. I also wonder how his research will factor in to Shallan and Jasnah’s study of “corrupt” spren, the oathgate spren, and the unmade. I want to see them interact some day for sure.

The way Ash says it though, sounds like an oath/swear. The way that those in Mistborn used to say “lord ruler” or how some in stormlight say “stormfather”. This would suggest that the Heralds are of Adonalsium, in that they treated him/it as their god, or at least A god. That maybe they agreed to serve Honor, and the greater cosmere, knowing what the shards were and why they were acting. I do not think the Heralds were “normal” men, as we think of them. But that’s a lot of supposition i know. :-)

I’ve begun to wonder whether the Herald’s decision to abandon ship combined with Honor’s changing personality (and probably how he interpreted his intent) played a role. If Honor saw the Heralds’ decision as dishonorable and began to be more “skybreaker” in intent, it might have affected how the Radiants interpreted their oaths as well. And if there’s a random unmade unaccounted for which could have infiltrated Urithiru without a bond smith bonding the Sibling, well, it could have turned the Radiants against one another, and making them violate their oaths, essentially killing their spren. I can’t help but think what we saw Kal going through with Syl in WoR after agreeing to help Moash was important. But there’s definitely too much going on here that seems unsaid.

It really stuck out to me. Such levels of complex moral reasoning, you know? I think kal’s conversation with mutant Amaram is a foreshadowing to this taking of responsibility for Kal, too: that he did choose to kill Helaran. That he is responsible, even if he’d do it all over again. It was his duty and his choice. And it set into motion so much of where we are now. It will be interesting to see if owning that to Shallan’s Family might be a type of progression for him too.

Ya ain’t lying. Now i know why BS saved this for book 4: Shallan’s brothers are here now. Wooo.

I find it intriguing that Sja-Anat sees herself as “enlightening” spren whilst we see it as “corruption”. These splinters of Odium, the unmade, are interesting in that they have their own intent separate from Odium that have grown and focused over centuries, if not millennia. Kind of reminded me of the Eden story: the tree of good and evil. Is it about disobedience or knowledge? Sja-Amat may see herself as enlightening spren as to their true nature, giving them knowledge or awareness in ways they might not have had otherwise. We shall see. We don’t know whether her corruption is actually changing anything about the spren’s function, or just how they look? My connection here to Glys, i suppose, is that if it’s not really something “bad” that has corrupted Glys, but rather a component of odium’s original intent that’s been spun off into Sja-Amat, and is somewhat “neutral”, then Ivory’s comment makes sense. Ivory sees that something that shouldn’t be, actually is: a component of Odium is not, er, odious? (Sorry, couldn’t help myself)

I feel like there’s a difference between taking responsibility and regret/guilt. Adolin admits his crime to his betrothed and to his father. He takes responsibility, although not immediately. He doesn’t have to show remorse if he doesn’t feel it, particularly if, as you all mention, he isn’t strictly following Dalinar’s code of honor, or Kal’s. I think the juxtaposition of different types of “honor” is truly fascinating here, and at the root seems to be acknowledging ones own contributions and taking responsibility. Shallan’s truths and lies, Kal’s understanding when he’s not responsible, Dalinar’s ownership of his past. Adolin is on his own path now, with Shallan and maya, and i think this was a big step for him. Personally, I like that Shallan gave him that moral support in that moment, and they seemed to understand each other. Owning your choices, and the consequences, even if you can’t regret them. Now we will see how Shallan manages this when speaking with her brothers about Kal and Heleran.

After this thread i had to reread WOR to see what so many seemed to have seen between Shallan and Kal that i missed beyond her admitting she killed her father to him. She comes out of the chasm and immediately turns to Adolin for support. Even in the chasm she is thinking of Adolin. And when Adolin claims he’s going to protect her etc etc she gets mad and is honest with him, and he listens to her. I guess i never really saw Kal and her as “thing” in the same way as obviously so many did. I’ve been taken aback by it, i guess. I think I’ll re read even more trying to see it thru a different lens...

@Matt Snow

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Yeah I’m with you. Cried at all those same moments!! At work at my desk... and then had to go give my undergrads a test 30 minutes after i finished it, and trolled 17th shard to recover while they sweated and panicked over the exam. So cruel. i thought this was one of the best books I’ve read. And I’ve read so many! But then again, I’m a woman of the moment, so a lot of books feel like the best when I’m enmeshed in them.

Fellow mom here:

YESSSSSS. Oh, Jasnah--how do I love thee? Re: her backstory, though, this was from from chapter 49 (23 years ago): //"It's your daughter," Dalinar guessed. "Her lunacy." "Jasnah is fine, and recovering. It's not that." Gavilar frowned, his expression dangerous.// This would have made her what, a Rosharian 11 years of age. This might fit up with a sexual assault theory, and/or possibly the first time she met Ivory? Similar to Shallan's backstory, although we don't know what originally caused her to break enough for Pattern to seek her out (prior to her "situation" with her mother). I really hope we get a Jasnah backstory...and soon.

I loved that i got more of my two favorite women: Jasnah and Shallan, with a bonus appearance of Azure. I enjoyed Jasnah’s slow reveal of who she is and what she’s willing to do. She’ll make a good queen. I liked what Brandon has done with Shallan. Showing her uncommon strength and the side effects of such talents in an unguided young person. That scene . Re: the “triangle”, I’m glad she chose the way she did—imho Kal never complemented her the way Adolin did, even if i think marriage is a bit precipitous. (Then again, it is the end of the world. Lol who am i to judge?) I think Adolin has a better shot of grounding her throughout her discovery of self more than Kal does, as two broken people often don’t make a whole. My concerns were confirmed when Kal approached her in Shadesmar and totally overlooked Shallan’s own issues in his envy of her “lightness”. She saw it then too—that it wouldn’t work. Though i was never convinced either of them had real love for one another. I doubt this is the end of shallan’s struggles, of course. But i honestly hope we can leave the “triangle” behind.

Well Taln and Ash are definitely broken enough to become KR that’s for sure! I wonder if Szeth will retrieve their honorblades when he returns to “cleanse” the Shin lands? They could become dual wielders: true shardblades and honorblades. Which might make for some interesting power combinations!

@WhiteLeeopard you know, i think it’s pertinent what Nale specifically says: that he’s chosen to follow the Parsh and their laws, not Odium per se. And that many sky breakers have chosen to follow him. That sets up the possibility of a Parsh (e.g. venli??) convincing him that the Parsh law is not as clear as Nale thinks it is? I think it’s a bit more than 50% that they play a role against Odium in the end—but who knows. And on the “more Edgedancers” tip: yesssssss. I think the epigraph about them when the Radiants left Urithiru is so interesting: that they were in charge of resettling the people and evacuating them, and that they’d be hit hardest by the abandonment. So true.

I also think that it might have felt like Elhokar was becoming a squire to Shallan. She draws him the photo, she encourages him to think of himself differently, an illusion of sorts, and he begins to grow into that illusion, like shallan does.

Remember that a Spren has to decide to give up its memories and cross over when it decides it wishes to bond. This Cryptic did so, but i think Hoid knew Elhokar would die, leaving it stranded, given Hoid a chance to gain a Nahel bond, collecting yet another form of magic/investiture. He had to do some storytelling and helping, though, to convince the spren to bond him—he has to attract it with what it’s looking for. I agree with @Unknowingly that we really can’t know Hoid’s intentions, aside from what he’s shown us already about his collection of magic. I also think that the Fused aren’t looking for the Cryptic, but that’s another theory/thread.

I think sometimes we think of "endowment" as being benevolent, just like y'all mention, but endowment also includes having natural abilities, so I can see her having problems with people who aren't "naturally endowed" or who don't accept those gifts. She's obviously okay with hierarchy and with some people being "better" than others (e.g., she chooses the Returned, and they are then placed in "power"). I can see this "endowment" working almost to segregate. Which would explain her almost "us" vs. "you" idea.

@Spoolofwhool i think you might be on to something with this—hatred consumes. It gobbles up every positive anything in its path. Gluttony, lust, anger: it leaves no room for anything and sucks the person dry. Odium May see himself as about “passion” but only because he consumes and feeds off of that—turning a person into an empty vessel to do his bidding.

@Kingsdaughter613 i ran out of upvotes too! I’ve read these boards for so many years but am just learning how to participate on them. Haha! I wonder too about Hoid’s particular emotions toward Rayse...i imagine that will be fleshed out sooner or later!!

I liked Syl’s endeavoring to be captured in Shadesmar: Ancient Daughter? “You’d better catch me before I scamper away! Wow! I’m feeling capricious today. I might just vanish again, off to where nobody can find me!” I laughed out loud. Literally.