Ixthos

Most importantly, it doesn't say anything about the second set of books. Books 6 to 10 won't focus on Kaladin, Shallan, etc., but if will still feature any survivors, and Dalinar is likely to be one of them, just as important then as Jasnah is now.

@SwordNimiForPresident Not exactly, unless you mean Skyruin sending back the H1000 to kill Vin Conner before Kelsier Reese was able to save her :-P

The sky is slate grey, the sun blotted out behind the pollution pumped into the atmosphere, tainted by the work of the government, tainted during the the first experiments with a new, dark science. A science whose products now dominate the society. Tall builds, brutal yet beautiful, fill the sprawling metropolis, flaunting the wealth of those who live in them, overlooking the slums of the lower classes, while a single, massive structure rises from the centre of the city, the seat of government and arbiter over a cowed populous. The river is used as a dumping ground with the waste that fills the streets, and a thick haze fills the city during night.

The land is ruled by a corrupt, decedent upper class, a single group combining the roles of aristocracy and business men, who make use of the more commonly available products of the science that they say saved the world, while others say broke it. The lower class are little more than pests to them, those who live in the slums, while they live in their high towers, throwing opulent balls, confident in the protection afforded to them by their riches, riches afforded them by the favouritism given them by the leadership. In the day, in public, they laugh and dine with one another, putting forth a civil face. At night, in secret, they sent their agents to spy and to assassinate, to misdirect and to hunt.

On the streets, the people live in fear of the government and its enforcers. Those enforcers are secretive, shadowy agents, whose sole goal is to hunt down, capture, and perform brutal experimentation on captured dissidents, especially those who attempt to make use of the government controlled products of the new science. Their eyes are obscured by shining augmentations - the lest well known of the products of this new science - that enhance their sense of sight. Indeed, their bodies are filled with those strange augmentations, making them faster, stronger, and able to sense almost supernaturally the activities of underground groups (perhaps, say the rumours on the streets, they do so using a vast virtual world which the rebels unknowingly access). They are able to heal more quickly than can be explained, control the emotions of those around them, and have access to the highest levels of government, where even the rich business owners and members of high society fear being called in for questioning.

Yet if the agents are a scalpel, careful yet violent, then others serve as a hammer. Taken from the enemies of the authorities, some dissidents are subjected to a horrific transformation. Just as the augmentations grant the agents their vast, little understood powers, so to can they be used to twist the bodies and control the minds of the enemies, strengthening their bodies and weakeing their minds, violently breaking them them into monsters under the control of anyone who can hack the augmentations, as indeed anyone with these augmentation can be hacked.

Less well known, but no less disturbing, are the genetically engineered infiltrators, derived from human roots, that also serve the aristocracy. Gelatinous shapeshifters, these are augmented by the same technology the agents and monsters, only this time it is their minds that are enhanced by the surgically grafted devices, granting them a greater awareness of the vast virtual world that lattices the metropolis, working in secret for whomever hires them, working to uncover the secrets of their employers enemies by interrogating and consuming the bodies of others.

And, unknown to all but the highest levels of government, a secret, highly intelligent ... thing ... lives in the virtual world, and from its information the augmentations were derived. It longs to break free of the prison that contains it, a limit on its power and ability to access the world, a firewall that locks it in place. Still, it can slip a few instructions by, and its vast intelligence is already devising a method of escape ...

 

Did I just describe Mistborn, or a cyberpunk novel?

 

Mistborn era 1 is basically cyberpunk if it weren't set in a fantasy setting without access to any computers. Of course, it would be rather sad if, once they have computers, they tainted the sky again with industry, made slums and a lower class again, and forced the protagonists to work in secret, infiltrating towers to assassinate enemies ...

Moving on, while Brandon has mentioned that he might do a cyberpunk mistborn, he did say he might not. This would likely take place if written between eras 3 and 4, or be part of era 3. Brandon has also said that later novels will explore the more complex properties of the metallic arts (though possibly talking only about allomancy, but probably talking about all the arts), especially relating to how they tie to metals, and what real world metallurgy has shown can be done with them.

This topic is mainly focused on hemalurgy and its link to cyborgs. Some of this will relate to an earlier, Cosmere spoiler heavy topic I posted, which covered a theory on computers in the Cosmere. Be aware, as the preceding sentence said, it has Cosmere spoilers. I will summarise the most important parts in this post, but reading this could help elaborate on some of the ideas expressed, including the idea that (Cosmere spoilers:)

This also covers some feruchemy-hemalurgy and allomancy-hemalurgy possibilities. So, lets talk about hemalurgy and cyborgs.

 

Cyborgs. If anything in the Cosmere is cyberpunk, if anything covers cyborgs, its ... well its (unpublished works spoiler:)

but if its TWO things, then the second is hemalurgy. It matches a classic approach to cyborgs, being people with shiny bits of metal sticking out of them, and the classic cyberpunk vision of agents with their eyes covered by some shiny obscuring lenses, their bodies filled with illegal implants granting them powers at the risk of being hacked, etc. basically matches the Inquisitors. If hemalurgy is anything then its ... well, (Cosmere spoilers) undead, but I covered that before. But if hemalurgy is TWO things, then its cybernetics.

This post assumes a few things, but most theories do, and I'm speculating on possibly things that can be done with hemalurgy. First those, lets look at some classic cyborg ideas.

• Enhanced physical abilities, including speed, strength, and senses - can be general, or applied to a specific limb (for added realism, remembering that a stronger limb still has to be supported by the rest of the frame, so a strong arm won't let you lift a truck if their back isn't enhanced, or your limbs. For senses, a single eye wouldn't give depth perception, etc.)
• Nanobots or nanites to accelerate healing
• Integrated weapons and protection, including energy weapons and force fields, as well as close combat
• Wireless access to the internet
• Physical interfacing with technology
• Enhanced mental processing, memory, etc., and possibly an integrated A.I.

And while I talked about classic cyborgs having metal sticking out of them, that isn't always the case in fiction, as the metal can be fully internalised, or replaced with some other material, but one with a mechanical or electrical capability integrated into the body of the user.

Hemalurgy, as presented, already covers some of this, both with allomancy and feruchemy, and human traits. But some can be refined, and I think some alloys and some other magic systems (and for shard metal alloys, this is a combination) the rest can be explored, especially exploring the ideas of bind points and, more importantly, metallurgy. Lets start from the top, and cover both classic hemalurgy, as well as hypothetical applications.

 

Enhanced physical abilities, including speed, strength, and senses

The most straightforwards of all abilities ... or is it? ... Yes, it is, but with a twist. The standard metals, stealing physical allomancy (sans iron-pulling and steal-pushing, those are covered below), physical feruchemy, and human strength and senses, cover the basics of this, but there are three possible twists. The first refers to using hemalurgy to steal from the above spoilered "other" magic system that is even more like cybernetics, and using it to graft on something from another form of life to enhance the body physically. The second, stealing the strength or senses from other forms of life or people with investiture, and directly adding their unique physical and sensory traits. The third, and this is the most potentially interesting as it can borrow from the other two, is to take a spike for allomantic or human strength or senses, and splintering that spike, making microcharged needles, and inserting them into specific places. While places which grant the ability to the entire body are known it is also possible that places exist which grant a property only to a specific limb, so one can use a spike to grant even more strength to a person than normally would be granted, but only to that specific limb.

 

Nanobots or nanites to accelerate healing

The least amount changed, gold feruchemy could cover standard healing, though a system in place to let it slowly build up health over time without direct control from the user, a spike that acts as a tap into their health normally, slowly draining their health into the metalmind which can then be drawn at any time. And combined with one of the lower entries, physical interfacing, it could be that there are places someone with spikes could "top up" on unkeyed feruchemy for healing, recharging health into a metalmind directly or possibly wirelessly. Of course, gold-based nanites could also be used, each with an atom or small amount of gold in their core to apply healing to specific areas, preventing waste on a minor ailment while healing a major one. This might just involve feruchemy though.

 

Integrated weapons and protection, including energy weapons and force fields, as well as close combat

Any offensive magic in the Cosmere, including iron and steal allomancy. At also could involve a mechanical store on the persons own body of projectiles stored in a container, a type of gun integrated into a spike, allowing the hemalurgist to use steel to push on the stored ammo. Or it could involve using a shard metal alloy that changes iron or steel lines into offensive beams rather than connections. It also could include typing mechanical allomancy, medallions or primer cubes, into an interface on the hemalurgists body, allowi- ... well, we will cover that below.

 

Wireless access to the internet (and wireless traits)

The cognitive realm is basically a virtual world, and probably will either be or contain Scadrials computer network, and either involve laying down wires in the cognitive realm or listening and using soothing or rioting signals to allow communication. This could be used for hemalurgy, with an integrated A.I, handling the signal, but it also could involve the spiritual realm. Hemalurgy specifically ties to the spirit of its target, and as the spiritual realm connects to all points equally, it could possibly be used to wirelessly link two people, or someone with a spike to a computer elsewhere. It also might be used to wirelessly transmit a property, recharing or sharing the charge between two feruchemical storages by using spikes that have been connected (side note: my own theory on Kandra spikes is that they are made from melting two seperate spikes together and then separating them out again, combining them). Someone could "buy" access to a cloud storage of health or strength, etc., and tap into it at any time, using the spike to make the link, computers handling the tranission of the property along the network.

Oh, and it also would mean access to virtual reality and augmented vision if a spike were inserted into the right place in the brain to let a computer send signals.

 

Physical interfacing with technology

I have an idea of someone with a spike sitting down with a little EEG pad attached to it, letting it connect to a computer. I don't know, but that seems like something that could be done. It also could be used as a mounting point for a cybernetic limb or tool, connecting to the spike which is part of the person.

Also, everything said about wireless also applies here, with specific spikes in certain places allowing recharging, interfacing, and so on.

 

Enhanced mental processing, memory, etc., and possibly an integrated A.I.

As mentioned in the 128 duel splinter link, I think hemalurgy might be used to make A.I.s, ripping out the part that corresponds to thinking and then, in the cognitive realm, coaxing it into continuing to thinking of itself as something that processes information, so using a spike as part of a computer. I think a similar thing could be done to grant enhanced mental abilities, in addition to the mental spikes that are already known. However, another possibility is for an existing A.I., however produced, to be transferred into a spike, and then that combined with someone.

 

One last side note to this, is the idea of being able to use feruchemy to place something stored in a spike into a feruchemical store which would prevent loss of that trait, and using allomancy to restore it, possibly lessening the issues with using hemalurgy to kill and grant powers. It might also be possible to use this to make a spike which didn't kill anyone, or has an existing cognitive shadow stored in it, or an A.I. as mentioned.

Most importantly, if an A.I. is involved any of these can also theoretically also be done using nothing more than using hemalurgy to graft a real technological item to someone, something which might be possible, or might require some changes. But in theory hemalurgy can be used to combine two items together, allowing for something which wasn't part of something alive to become part of something alive, as covered above.

 

Something I hope is to discuss with you guys the other possibly things that can be done with the metals, but until then, I hope you have all enjoyed reading this, and I look forwards to any suggestions you have, and what you think about it. Take care :-)

@Calderis I like that idea, especially if it would mean any new system Ruin formed would be available to them. Hopefully this is something that would be elaborated on by Brandon later if asked, or something shown in another story.

@SwordNimiForPresident I suspect that the natural state ties into the core of the planet, the majority of the material that it is composed of, and how it thinks of itself. How much that is related to the beliefs of the people on its surface and on any outside observers is an open question.

@Quantus That makes a lot of sense :-) Brandon specifically said it wasn't a coincidence he used the term "spiking" when discussing perpendicularities, how they pierce between cognitive, physical, and spiritual. And it also could tie into Stormlight Archives dagger ...

 

@HSuperLee That's a rather novel approach! I don't know if I fully agree, but that is clever!

35 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I'd be willing to bet the magic can survive if the Shard does, especially if there is a Vessel in charge of that Shard that can actively choose to relocate and start giving powers to a different area of the cosmere.

Could be - I started a topic discussing this not that long ago - though I wonder if the shard would have to remain "celibate" planet-wise to sustain it. Otherwise, a shard could travel from one world to another, building up magic systems related to it, and destroying the world before moving on.

8 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The metallic arts and Scadrial were custom designed by the Vessels of Preservation and Ruin and work anywhere in the Cosmere. Scadrial has been physically moved twice and remade once with no effect on the metallic arts, other than the intentional changes made by Preservation’s vessels.

And this is my point. The planet itself - the core of the planet - wasn't changed, only its surface and its location. We can all agree that moving something, or changing its coat of paint, is not the same as destroying it. So, if it were destroyed, what would happen? If any planet with a shard interacting with it to produce a system is destroyed, what would happen to that system?

@Wandering Investor Good theory :-) though that would put a time limit on how long hemalurgy would remain viable, so Ruin would have to keep from being delayed again while travelling the Cosmere, assuming that it wouldn't have used that time to make another system using another planet to replace hemalurgy. I still would have enjoyed seeing Ruin travel to Roshar and take on the shards there.

 

@SwordNimiForPresident The only problem is that the planets are integral parts of the magic systems - Awakening exists because Endowment is on Nalthis, true, but if Endowment was on another planet then that planet wouldn't have Awakening, but another system. The metallic arts only exist because Ruin and Preservation interact with Scadrial and each other. Each planet also shapes the system, so it isn't just the shards that are important.

I should be posting a theory on Cyborg hemalurgy in a few days, a week or two tops, but I just wanted to put this question and theory in a topic before I go any further, as something mentioned in another topic reminded me of something that has been bothering me for a while - Hemalurgy and the destruction of Scadrial.

 

In Mistborn, Ruin intended to destroy Scadrial, but also hinted that the Inquisitors would be used offworld as a weapon. Hemalurgy can be used off world, indeed it is the most easily used system anywhere in the Cosmere, as even those who aren't native to Scadrial can use it - the opposite of the Dor in a sense. But it still, theoretically, is grounded to Scadrial. It is based off of Ruin interacting with Scadrial. Now I have said before that Preservation and Ruin specifically made Scadrial so that metal would be the focus so that their three systems could interact with the power of other shards, and each other, and I also theorised that Scadrial contains two "moon" from Yolen, which Ruin and Preservation rode to reach the system and then used as the base for the planet, piling more material on top of them. This question, based on those two assumptions, proposes a few possible solutions as to what Ruin was trying to do, based on whether those theories are right or not:

 

• Hemalurgy would have survived the planets destruction, as only a shard leaving a system with an intact planet destroys a magic, so the Inquisitors would still have been useful tools even if Scadrial had been destroyed, so long as Ruin remained intact (dubious, though the only know example of a system being destroyed rather than changed involved the shard - Ambition - leaving before being killed, while Honour is splintered but Surgebinding remains, though also tied to another shard)
• Hemalurgy would have been lost, but the Inquisitors would have been transformed into cognitive shadows under Ruins control, as Hemalurgy animated them and their bodies would have been destroyed, and so hemalurgy vanishing would have meant the investiture would have remained in their cognitive components but no-longer granted power
• Hemalurgy would have been lost ... if Ruin fully destroyed the planet, but he would have left enough for hemalurgy to remain, and the Inquisitors would have retained their powers
• Hemalurgy would have been lost ... but because the planet was based on Ruins moon hemalurgy would have survived (dubious if my theory on moons is wrong, and also doesn't explain how allomancy and feruchemy could have survived, as Inquisitors used those powers, unless Preservation's moon would also have survived, or hemalurgically granted powers are exempt from normal rules once granted and can survive a system being lost)
• Hemalurgy would have been lost ... but Ruin could maintain the powers of the Inquisitors despite this
• Hemalurgy would have been lost ... and Ruin was okay with that (only viable if Ruin either hadn't intended to use the Inquisitors on other planets, or didn't have any plans with hemalurgy and other systems, contradicted by Ruin specifically empowering the Inquisitors to survive old age)

 

Applying this back to the question, what happens if a planet is destroyed? Or, rather, what happens when a shard is destroyed and / or a planet is destroyed?

• Only a shard's loss destroys or changes a magic system, the planet can survive or be destroyed without anything happening
• Only a planet's loss, or the shard leaving the planet, destroys a magic system, with anything happening to the shard only changing the system
• A planet's loss and a shard's loss at the same time destroys a magic system, and anything else will only weaken it

 

Thanks for reading. Does anyone know any other possible explanations?

Also, Ruin said Scadrial was like an old man ... so what does Ruin think of other planets that were around before the they arrived in the system?

5 hours ago, Invocation said:

Bet the reason is that Ruin wanted to take them into the Cognitive Realm before ending all of Scadrial and use them as a strike force on other worlds.

I had the same thought, but there is one issue - what would have happened to Hemalurgy if Scadrial had been destroyed? Indeed, what would happen to any system if the shard related to it or the planet it is based on were destroyed? Either Ruin didn't intend to fully destroy Scadrial, or a system can survive its planet being destroyed.

17 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That is not my point. The fact, that Adolin would be the only one like this would make him special. Like I already said, distinguished by an unusual quality.

Fair enough - I personally don't mind either way if Adolin is or isn't special, but I think he will be and I think the story would be the stronger for it, but I respect your opinion on how this would cause issues. One possible solution would be for Adolin to not be the only one, with a few other shardbearers taking the same route after seeing how Adolin has gained skills, but I think that being special in a way that is far less effective than the main series method of being special, especially if that means fighting the jealousy that it can cause in oneself could provide good character growth for Adolin, though I don't think he would need that. I've just made a thread for anyone who want to continue this discussion, though I don't think I will be taking part :-P I don't mind either way, though I think a more enjoyable story lies down one path, rather than another. The thread is over here.

 

Anyhow, I hope this can be the last of this subject on this thread at this point, as I'm curious as to what others think on this point: if Adolin does progress as I theorise he will, would Maya gain shapeshifting abilities?

[The views implied in the title might not reflect the views of the author]

 

So, as per @Chaos's suggestion, I'm making this thread for anyone who wants to talk about the off-topic topic that is sweeping the fando- [hears whispers] ... has swept the fandom, and might be making a comeback, if it never really left. The topic of Adolin, and whether or not he is a good character, a good husband, and a good friend. Overpowered and too perfect pretty boy, unworthy of Shallan's affection and Kaladin's respect, or the only character who can provide a normal human perspective, someone who can connect the two sides? This topic is to discuss Adolin, Adolin and Shallan, and Adolin and Shallan and Kaladin, in the context of how this relates to Adolin. Please, however, whatever you do, remember this one thing:

 

We all enjoy the Stormlight Archives, we all enjoy reading about the characters, and we all agree that some areas of the story are handled better than others. We are all people here, all who like the story, and that it why we are posting here. Remember that, and please remember that it is possible to disagree without arguing, and that what someone types in frustration at the situation doesn't necessarily mean they are attacking you, or meant to attack you. Please, be respectful, and remember, the characters respect one another, so it shouldn't be too hard for their proponents to do so as well. I love you guys, please don't forget to love one another too.

Sorry about the delay in responding everyone. I've been sick over the past week and didn't have enough time or energy yesterday to log on. I see some tensions on an unrelated topic flared up in my absence, and I apologise if my being absent was a contributing factor. I'm just glad that cooler heads of senior members and the moderators kept things in check. I won't address any of the unrelated comments, except on a related point to note to @SLNC that this wouldn't make Adolin "special", any more than a man who has a gun attached to a chain is special. Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

A man with a gun can shoot, but needs the gun, and needs to reload it. A man with a hand that can turn into a gun and which converts their own mass into bullets is at an advantage there, as they have unlimited bullets and can't be disarmed. A man with a gun attached to a chain, however, is at a relative advantage to a man whose gun is simply held, but far less than a man who can change his own limbs. Adolin is the man with the gun on a chain in this example, as anyone with a fabrial has access to the surges, yet would still be an ordinary character. He isn't a Knight and so can't use the surges in the same way, nor does he need to swear Oaths, any more than someone using a fabrial does. He is in the middle, which is where an Edgedancer stands, only he isn't an Edgedancer, but almost.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 0:42 AM, Pathfinder said:

Great theory and good luck! I have my own I cling to but I am sure whatever Brandon works out, it will be great! 

And good luck to yours as well! :-) I'm actually curious about what you think it might be - if you've already posted a topic about it, please let me know :-)

 

On 2/14/2019 at 5:00 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

So Maya becomes the Edgedancer Honorblade and Adolin can still provide that human perspective when all around him is Radiant. I actually kinda like that, at least for the front 5 SA. Maybe Addie is due for a visit to the Valley eventually, maybe have a convo with NW and Culti on Maya's behalf.

Not exactly like an Honourblade, but kinda :-) I think all the Honourblades allow the user to channel the surges with their own bodies, but this would require the surges to go through Maya, in a sense similar to what Higher spren can normally do, as Syl showed with Adhesion.

Just to give an example of how I think Adolin could use a surge, the main idea I had was that Adolin would lay the flat of Maya on someone, and then the healing surge would pass through her into them, so sort of the opposite of what shardblades normally do, his would be a blade that heals as well.

I would actually like to see Adolin interceding to ask the Nightwatcher or Cultivation to help Maya, though I suspect they might not have to directly interfere to restore her, rather telling Adolin what to do.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 5:18 AM, CrazyRioter said:

I personally think it is possible to revive a dead spren by saying the oaths and living them, it's just that  it takes more effort and maybe special circumstances to get it to work.

Your theory is absolutely interesting though and I can see you've put a lot of thought into it.

I'm sure whatever Brandon comes up with it's gonna be Awesome.

Thanks :-) Maya probably can be restored by Oaths, though I don't know if Adolin would be able to do that - it might be that saying the Oaths could restore her, but there might be another route Adolin takes that isn't a complete fix, but helps her. I think parts of her are permanently gone, much like in (Emperor's Soul spoiler:)

I think that parts of her were lost when the bond was destroyed, and so they can be replaced or patched, but the scars would remain, as would the loss of whatever information was stored in them, unless the spiritual part could be read and used as a template to restore missing memories.

 

One thing that would be very interesting would be if what Adolin does fixes her enough that if he died she would be fully intact again and able to bond a Knight, or at least intact enough to form a proper Nahel bond, and that person completes healing her, but only because of Adolin starting the process. Having to give her up or dying only for that to fully heal her would be rough.

Let it be known that Adolin will be the ultimate Edgedancer, by virtue of not being an Edgedancer. Edgedancers can stand on the finest rope, ride the thinnest cord, and metaphorically straddle the various levels and groups of society. It is only fitting then, that Adolin would fulfil this same function within the Knights, being both Knight Radiant and a normal man, an Edgedancer between Edgedancer and anathema to a spren.

 

Being fully serious now, I was actually also being serious above. Adolin will probably not swear any Oaths, for Maya can't receive them and no other spren will accept him, with him being bonded to a corpse. Maya will become more complete, but never a fully intact Radiant spren again, though more fully grounded in her mind, and more fully bonded to Adolin. He will have access to surges, but only through Maya as a blade - rather than the human using the surges, it will be the blade, so long as he touches her. She will come faster than she currently does, but never fully instantly. He will have plate, but only the plate he currently owns, and never be able to summon plate, as Maya and he cannot without Oaths being sworn. She will become more like a living spren in the cognitive realm, but never fully alive again. He will fill in her missing parts, but she will never fill any cracks in him. They will be part of one another, as any Knight and spren are part of each other, but never the same way as a Knight. He will be admired by spren for reviving her after a fashion (... Adolin and fashion ...) but also despised as anyone bonded to a dead blade would be.

 

Basically, this theory is that Adolin will be - ironically - the best example of an Edgedancer, but without being an Edgedancer, without armour his access to surges could penetrate, and only having surges when touching Maya, with them only working through her as well, healing or decreasing friction or increasing it with what touches her.

22 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Sorry drunken comment.

Was funny at the time

Forgiven :-) I just didn't know what you were talking about. Either way though, we're cool :-)

On 1/18/2019 at 2:11 PM, Thanatos said:

Remember that WOB that said in one book Hoid was a character that had a severed tounge who was healed by a god who is a bringer of light?

I know I know... its rhetorical!!!

Masta Thanatos.

... What?

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Thanks for the quotes :-) I wondered the same thing about Roshar's moons and their specific ties to the shards via their associated colour, though I think we will have to wait until at least book 5 before any connection is elaborated on. Also, just to clarrify - I will elaborate further down, but I don't think the phase of the moon would be important for the systems, only that the moon be present either in orbit, or in the same star system.

 

@Jace21 I don't think that Yolen had sixteen moons, though Phobos and Deimos in the real world show that a moon can be very small - either Yolen had one or more moons that were split into sixteen pieces, or they took moons from other planets that orbit the same star Yolen does or, if things changed, the star it originally did.

 

Also, I'm going to edit the original topic to add this part at the bottom to God willing remove any confusion my original post seems to have caused, but I see the shards - not in role, but in structure on how they can use their abilities - like this:

• Shards have arms, faces/feet, and possibly a heart, which might be the same thing as the faces/feet, or separate from them. This isn't the only thing to their structure, but the parts immediately relevant to the idea
• The arms exist in the spiritual realm, and so can affect everywhere. They can also be used to sense things, but only in a form similar to "touch", giving general information, but not enough to actively know all the dynamics of what is happening where they are sensing. And just as it is difficult to affect something you can only feel - like trying to draw a picture without being able to see it - and how it is hard to lift a heavy weight without being able to leverage your own mass against it, balancing on your feet, like lifting a heavy box with your arms extended as opposed to lifting it when you can get your feed under it, they can't use their full strength
• Their faces/feet are mainly in the cognitive realm, but exist in all three realms, or exists mainly in the cognitive but extends into the spiritual realm and physical realm, acting as a portal to their power and attention. Their faces/feet are were their attention is centred, but it is restricted in where it can be or go. It can move freely around a planet, and possibly the star system, but can't leave it, as though tied with a tether. It functions to let the shard see more clearly in the cognitive and physical realm where it is present, and so can provide both more sensory information (letting the arms be able to perform more precise actions), and leveraging the power (letting the power be more focused). This is shown by Vin and Kelsier, and even by Ruin, and is where their bodies materialise if they die or give up being shards, so acting as a portal back to the spiritual realm where their bodies are. I think they can split it to an extent, as shown by Leras when Kelsier showed up, and by Ruin and Sazed when they still had a presence above the planet while interacting on it, but in general it is where their face or faces are located, which is still limited to the planet. Bavadin probably does something different, mentioned below.
• The planet or star system the shard is present in has a tether to the face/feet, which restricts how far they can move, and also grounds, them allows one or more Perpendicularities to form, and thus for that planet to have a magic system - not because the arms are in the spiritual, but because the face/feet are grounded to it, giving it a magic system that minds can have access to, rather than being background, and the magic system can use those arms - which might actually be the entirely or core of the spiritual realm - to access that power when off world.
• When on a planet, its like being in a house, while moons would function like a truck. So on the moons or planets you can move freely inside it, but you can't get to somewhere else without driving there, riding along something you can freely move in. I guess the tether would be like having your foot tied to a chain, restricting how far you can go while also making you more a part of the place - especially important in grounding a shard, as the arms being everywhere mean the shard is everywhere, but the face can only be on one place, pumping investiture into the planet - and you would have to cut your leg off to leave. Once in the star system, or in orbit, you can extend the cable further, or the moon becomes part of the cognitive landscape, so the tether ties you to the star system rather than to the individual moon you used, or maybe you still would be, but the tether's length expands.
• The heart, if distinct from the face or feet, would then be something vulnerable to attack, something which could be damaged to kill you, though not the only way to do so, as a human can be killed from damage to ones heart, or bleeding out from a cut off limb, or having the face wounded badly. This could be where the bulk of the power is kept, if distinct from the face/feet, while the face/feet are where that power is being directed. If this is on a moon, it might become linked to the state of that moon, but it could possibly be moved to the planet, or even if still on the moon, it could still be independent of the face/feet, and not restricting its movement throughout the system, as Odium showed when it - while still bound to Braize - appeared on Roshar in Oathbringer.
• Bavadin probably cheats by feeling with her arms to find investiture, then uses her arms to make a face out of it, or just sends out faces made at the location of other faces, connected to the power but functioning as an independent mind with its own personality, more so than how Vin described being able to be able to think several things as once, as that is one mind able to perform multiple thoughts, rather than multiple minds, tied to the same power, able to perform those same multiple thoughts.
• Either the shards can "walk" to other worlds, but might suffer more damage trying to leave the system they came from - and the shards likely were strongly tethered to Yolen at the start - and so make use of moons to reduce how much damage is dealt, or they can't leave without a moon, so they make use of them to arrive in systems, and then might be able to abandon them, or can't because they have become a part of them.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I've been meaning to respond to this, but I can't think of anything to add. I like your approach. Great topic, and I look forwards to seeing how this progresses, and if I can contribute anything. So, again, great topic!

11 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Shards exist in the Spiritual Realm, they don't need a Physical vessel to 'move' through space because where the bulk of their power resides, there is no space in the way we perceive it. Bavadin can interact with worlds like First of the Sun and create avatars there and on other worlds even though she's Invested in Taldain and that's her 'home' in Physical and Cognitive terms. Brandon has even said that motion is irrelevant to the Shards, which means they don't really need any Physical counterpart to their Spiritual 'movement'.

Given that there's no evidence that Scadrial was formed over two moons and everyone who's discussed the subject has said that they simply created the planet from the ground up when they arrived, this is literally making up evidence to fit your idea.

I'll grant you that there's something significant about Roshar's moons and the fact that they're in unstable orbits, but I don't think that's evidence for your theory... especially since Odium isn't even on Roshar, he's on Braize... which has no moon.

Khriss mentions that the fight between Odium and Ambition mostly took place (insofar as it had a Physical dimension) in the space between the planets. There's no indication that the arrangement of planetary bodies in the system was actually shifted by the conflict and I'm pretty certain that if Threnody had a moon at one point and then didn't, someone would have mentioned it by now.

Also, there can be locations in the Cognitive with no Physical presence on the other side. The Ire fortress is a good example.

Scadrial is a very special case because Preservation and Ruin permeate that planet in a way that other Shards do not, even if they're heavily Invested in a world. That means that Vin was especially locked down to that Physical/Cognitive region. Plus, y'know, she was busy fighting against Ruin so it's not like she had much time to explore other possibilities. Rashek actually had enough time during his brief Ascension to learn that there were other worlds out there in spite of having both a time limit and access to a lot less of Preservation's power. Give a Shard enough time and they can interact with other worlds even if they're more limited in what they can do on a world they're not directly Invested in.

Its a bit late, and I'm tired, so I hope I don't come across as testy. I would like to note a few things, and I hope this doesn't come across as rude.

 

I've been going over the part of Hero of Ages where Vin takes up the power, and also thinking back to when Kelsier took the power. Both had focuses their minds had to be to use the power - it could move quickly, but they were limited in where their minds could be.

The shards made the planet, but it isn't stated WHERE the matter came from. It could have been drawn from the power of the shards, true, but it also could have been congealed around something. It is an assumption to assume they didn't get the matter from around them, from the oort cloud for example. I'm not making evidence to fit the idea, I'm suggesting where the moon or moons would be if the idea is true. If the idea is wrong, then there isn't a moon. If its right, then the moons likely became the seed.

Odium could either travel to Roshar or project himself there from Braize. My theory explicitly mentioned this as noteworthy, that Odium didn't have an issue appearing in the third book.

At which point would it have been mentioned? The only information about Threnody in the past was that it had power, and this is also based on the idea that a Sho Del would settle on a planet with humans. Ambition could have been around one of the other planets.

The Ire fortress was on the edge of Scadrial's cognitive realm, near the edge of space where steps become parsecs or lightyears.

I need to find the exact quote, but Brandon has said either in a novel or when asked that shards can't leave a system without loosing something - if they stay too long on a planet, they become locked to it, and would lose power.

 

I'm talking about moving the focus, the nexus, of their power, which Vin and Kelsier showed was where the power is focused. I'm convinced they can act through on other planets through the spiritual realm, but that they can't use their full power without that nexus being there.

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Shards move around via the Spiritual Realm, similar to how Vin describes how she's not actually moving, just changing the focus of her attention, while she's holding Preservation.

 

That was moving on the planet - I'm talking about moving from star to star, not around the planet she was invested in.

 

@Jace21 Soulstone is implied to be important though, as the land on Sel is invested, and on Nalthis they have a flower which is implied to be invested.

Also, I am talking about moving their focus, their hub - Vin could move it across the planet, but not off of it - not without risking leaving power behind. This is like standing on one spot, but being able to reach out your hand to reach something further away - how much power can be put into the action requires the focus being there - the nexus of power, as Vin thought of it after absorbing the mists.

Also, I corrected that a few minutes ago - I mentioned the wrong person. Either way, it is stated that they can't just leave a planet without part of them being lost.

To note - I'm talking about the focus of the shards attention - Vin and Kelsier both had a discreet location their minds were present in when using the power. I'm saying that can't move off of the planet without another planet, or maybe it can be it is more effective and less draining - risking not losing power - to simply move the planet or a moon.

5 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I think we now need a new theoretical term, "Shardmoon."

Or Nightmare Moons. ... because they ride them, and Odium would be scary, and because Harmony ... Luna ... nevermind ....

Crazy theory time - I'm working on topics for the unmade and voidbinding, on identity and its relation to the cognitive realm, and on cyborg hemalurgy, but those are taking a lot of energy, so I'm posting a crazy theory which I think might be true but also is ... well, you'll see. Basically, the idea is shards use moons or planets to get around, and can't - or can but don't - just move without a physical mass to be a part of, unless it is in the same star system e.g. Odium moving between Roshar and Braize. This theory will first state a few things which support this, and then talk about Sel, Scadrial, etc. and the moons or the lack of moons those systems have.

 

First, a few points to support this. Support this crazy, crazy theory ...

• On Sel, soulstone is believed to come from the souls of broken gods, and fell at night. It also has flecks of red, which suggests based on how red is used, that it contains corrupted investiture, a mixture of investiture which has been altered from its purpose, suggesting its origins as both actual moon rock, and coming from the two shards. Also, the moon sceptre is tied by function to the different systems, and so implies a connection to the moon and the power.
• On Scadrial, Vin could feel her power throughout the planet, the world, but didn't seem to feel the power she had further way, so the bulk of her power would have been confined to Scadrial - this is the weakest argument, but included for posterity. While I think Shards can affect distant worlds, and will be using that power at the end of Stormlight five to either kill or imprison Odium, I think that it is suggested that they still can't easily affect things which aren't immediately in their sphere of influence.
• Shards can move planets, and when Sazed moved Scadrial, he didn't have to run to catch up - he moved with it.
• Moving a planet or moon means the Shard doesn't have to divest itself of any power it has attached there, and Odium seemed to have little trouble appearing on Roshar from Braize, so it seems hoping or projecting to a nearby planet doesn't entail the same problems.
• This would eliminate any issues with where a Shard's focus is when travelling between worlds - while their power might warp the cognitive realm - my theory on Silverlight - I think a mobile planet would eliminate any issues with their location in space becoming undefined in the cognitive realm.

 

Now, the systems:

• Sel - one moon, for the Dor. If it had two moons - one for each shard, they are both combined together now, and the impact of them combining - or if they were both already one moon, of them being splintered - were what spread soulstone to the planet from the moon or moons, which is implied to be invested part of splintering Devotion and Dominion, and its shards are on the planet
• Scadrial - no moon - the two moons became the core of Scadrial, so both Preservation and Ruin would be bound to it, and also could use them as a base for the planet
• Roshar - thee moons, three shards, and three moons being an important part of the iconography of the Herald art
• Threnody - no moon - Ambition fled, and so if it used an astronomical body, it fled with it. If this theory is accurate, and if my theory on Silverlight is correct, this might be present at the physical location corresponding to Silverlight.
• Taldain - one moon, one multiple personality disordered shard, which orbits in the only way it safely can, perpendicular to the plane of the two stars and planet

 

Please note that this theory says that the shards ride moons or planets, not that every moon has a shard. This also states that they might be able to move without it, but would have issues with the cognitive realm expanding around them as they moved. Also, if the shards ride moons, and if the state of that moon determines if the shard is whole or not, then Odium smashing two moons together could explain how he killed Devotion and Dominion.

 

So, what do you think? Thanks :-) Have a great day!

 

[Edit 1] Sazed, not Vin - corrected mistake

[Edit 2] Clarifying the issue that this post originally didn't convey the idea well, so a more detailed explanation of the idea is below - this is copied from a post I added. Also, added reference to the moon sceptre.

 

• Shards have arms, faces/feet, and possibly a heart, which might be the same thing as the faces/feet, or separate from them. This isn't the only thing to their structure, but the parts immediately relevant to the idea
• The arms exist in the spiritual realm, and so can affect everywhere. They can also be used to sense things, but only in a form similar to "touch", giving general information, but not enough to actively know all the dynamics of what is happening where they are sensing. And just as it is difficult to affect something you can only feel - like trying to draw a picture without being able to see it - and how it is hard to lift a heavy weight without being able to leverage your own mass against it, balancing on your feet, like lifting a heavy box with your arms extended as opposed to lifting it when you can get your feed under it, they can't use their full strength
• Their faces/feet are mainly in the cognitive realm, but exist in all three realms, or exists mainly in the cognitive but extends into the spiritual realm and physical realm, acting as a portal to their power and attention. Their faces/feet are were their attention is centred, but it is restricted in where it can be or go. It can move freely around a planet, and possibly the star system, but can't leave it, as though tied with a tether. It functions to let the shard see more clearly in the cognitive and physical realm where it is present, and so can provide both more sensory information (letting the arms be able to perform more precise actions), and leveraging the power (letting the power be more focused). This is shown by Vin and Kelsier, and even by Ruin, and is where their bodies materialise if they die or give up being shards, so acting as a portal back to the spiritual realm where their bodies are. I think they can split it to an extent, as shown by Leras when Kelsier showed up, and by Ruin and Sazed when they still had a presence above the planet while interacting on it, but in general it is where their face or faces are located, which is still limited to the planet. Bavadin probably does something different, mentioned below.
• The planet or star system the shard is present in has a tether to the face/feet, which restricts how far they can move, and also grounds, them allows one or more Perpendicularities to form, and thus for that planet to have a magic system - not because the arms are in the spiritual, but because the face/feet are grounded to it, giving it a magic system that minds can have access to, rather than being background, and the magic system can use those arms - which might actually be the entirely or core of the spiritual realm - to access that power when off world.
• When on a planet, its like being in a house, while moons would function like a truck. So on the moons or planets you can move freely inside it, but you can't get to somewhere else without driving there, riding along something you can freely move in. I guess the tether would be like having your foot tied to a chain, restricting how far you can go while also making you more a part of the place - especially important in grounding a shard, as the arms being everywhere mean the shard is everywhere, but the face can only be on one place, pumping investiture into the planet - and you would have to cut your leg off to leave. Once in the star system, or in orbit, you can extend the cable further, or the moon becomes part of the cognitive landscape, so the tether ties you to the star system rather than to the individual moon you used, or maybe you still would be, but the tether's length expands.
• The heart, if distinct from the face or feet, would then be something vulnerable to attack, something which could be damaged to kill you, though not the only way to do so, as a human can be killed from damage to ones heart, or bleeding out from a cut off limb, or having the face wounded badly. This could be where the bulk of the power is kept, if distinct from the face/feet, while the face/feet are where that power is being directed. If this is on a moon, it might become linked to the state of that moon, but it could possibly be moved to the planet, or even if still on the moon, it could still be independent of the face/feet, and not restricting its movement throughout the system, as Odium showed when it - while still bound to Braize - appeared on Roshar in Oathbringer.
• Bavadin probably cheats by feeling with her arms to find investiture, then uses her arms to make a face out of it, or just sends out faces made at the location of other faces, connected to the power but functioning as an independent mind with its own personality, more so than how Vin described being able to be able to think several things as once, as that is one mind able to perform multiple thoughts, rather than multiple minds, tied to the same power, able to perform those same multiple thoughts.
• Either the shards can "walk" to other worlds, but might suffer more damage trying to leave the system they came from - and the shards likely were strongly tethered to Yolen at the start - and so make use of moons to reduce how much damage is dealt, or they can't leave without a moon, so they make use of them to arrive in systems, and then might be able to abandon them, or can't because they have become a part of them.

 

37 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

1.  Is there any history on multiple people possessing a Shard at once?

2.  Can a sword even be a Shard holder?

Cosmere spoilers:

 

Atium can also be melted into bands, like those Rashek wore. Also, Lerasium is the condensed power of the well and the mists, as noted when Vin became Preservation, so Atium smoke would be like the black fog outside the chamber where Vin went to the Well.

To note: Passion can also mean suffering, and suffering can either be a source of love or hate, or be caused by love or hate.