Ixthos

I personally think I fit in with either Truthwatchers and or the Bondsmiths. I think all the orders have cool powers or abilities which I like, and I always did like teleportation, so Willshapers and Elsecallers are orders I would possibly like. I like Stonewards colours and abilities, Edgedancers speed, Windrunners ability to control gravity, and so on. The only groups I didn't like were Skybreakers and Dustbringers, but I since have seen how useful their abilities could be. In temperment and role, and even powers, however, I think I would fit in more with Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths - I also like the idea very much of Healing, and if I were offered all the possible powers at no charge, healing is the one I would choose, because it is better not to be selfish. And, for several reasons, I like light, lasers, radio and infrared, and holograms. I also like encouraging people and giving advice, and trying to tie them together.

@Eris and @Watchcry I actually think Renarin might be hinted at becoming a shard - I hope Brandon doesn't mean this, but Renarin's name is similar to the Holy Name of God.

I think that the three shards in the system are going to combine at least in part into a new shard with ten people holding it - but Cultivation might not fully be lost, and Nightblood might become Odium eventually, but I think at least a few parts of them will become part of a new shard held by ten former Knights and their spren, and Renarin would be a member.

Also, as I was thinking on this, it occurred to me that the left orders - Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers - are rather selfish orders in a sense, focused more on themselves, while the right orders - Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, and Edgedancers - are more people focused, and the two middle orders are possibly both. There might be more Odium in Surgebinding than I thought, the left orders having it, but only hints - Brandon did say there was some Odium, and I hadn't considered that when making this theory ...

Cosmere spoilers:

[Edit] Actually, here is a safer list of links, just covering Stormlight topics in the Stormlight section

• Taln resisted because he connected in part with the ideal of resisting
• Surge powers and unique powers of each Knight
  • Lightweaving lasers
• How the Knights gain their plate
• The Knights will have to voidbind - either through purposefully corrupting spren or through bonding Voidspren, who will compete for their favour with their surgebinding spren
• Glys is equal parts Honour, Cultivation, and Odium - also, the general composition of surgebinding spren

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Those are two different things as far as Ive been able to tell. Investiture that is "destroyed" via things like hemalurgy, destroyed physical containers, etc return to the Spritual Realm.  Nightblood, meanwhile, is always described as "Consuming" Investiture as opposed to Destroying it, and questions about whether it goes back like standard Destroyed investiture have been RAFO'd, which was why I asked if you had a new datapoint to settle the question.

Nightblood leaks a black smoke, which is implied to actually be leaking, though it could be like a constant mist that returns to it as it fades, and so it retains everything it has eaten. I think that Nightblood is increasing in how much it has or can have, but there isn't a clear answer if it "leaks" leaks, or what it has absorbed spills out but remains a part of it.

When it comes to attacking or harming, it depend on how long they have had Preservation - Vin could kill Ati because she recently took up the shard, though she didn't know she could shatter it. Also, I think that the only other shard with a similar mentality to Ruin is Cultivation, who would knock one thing down to build two things up. Preservation would be equally happy - the shard, if not the person - with an empty unchanging void. Leras wanted to make life, but Preservation as a shard probably isn't that interested - humans by nature grow, expand, which is not stable.

Another issue with this is that Preservation couldn't "make life", any more than Ruin could. Was this because of how long they had the power, or is this something the shards can't do, that only specific shards can do certain things. Kelsier, when he had Preservation, couldn't talk to people because Preservation closes gaps, but only to people he was strongly connected to.

... So, to answer the question, I don't think Preservation actually can splinter something, though it can isolate parts of it.

On 1/12/2019 at 6:25 AM, Calderis said:

As to Nightblood... It's not only of Endowment. 

As to Azure's blade... It kills differently than a sprenblade, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it drains anything. 

The only issue is it isn't actually clear what the person meant. Was Nightblood made using part of Ruin, specifically? Was Nightblood made using Endowment, but the Ruin present in the blade has come from consuming things which have Ruin in them? It isn't clear. But either way, Nightblood was still made with Awakening, and Allomancy still is Preservation's magic even when being fuelled by Ruin's metal.

Even if we rule out Nightblood, it drains colour, and colour is significant on Roshar for gems, but on Nalthis it is the fuel for Awakening, and also drained by Nightblood as a byproduct of consuming its host, which is likely ties to its origins with Endowment.

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Yes, the placement has everything to do with the fact that the piece of spiritweb is contained in the spike and as such must be placed in the correct position to integrate properly... But I think that the anchoring is both what circumvent rejection due to Identity conflict, and what makes that placement need to be so precise. As I've stated at length, if you remove the Identity conflict and create an alternate means of Connecting the spiritweb to the piece, I think this issue dissappears and is how medallions function. 

I see it less as about the identity, and more along making sure there is a control point it can mount onto - it you are mounting something onto a structure, you need to do so at a point which can take the weight, and allow it to perform its function - identity is irrelevant for that part, only what the part does - its like wiring something into an existing power supply and control system - you have a limited length of cable, so you mount it at or close to a point where you can connect it in. Or if performing surgery, you need to place an organ into a spot where it would fit - i.e. you place a replacement kidney where the kidney's go.

Incidentally, interesting topic :-) I don't know if I fully agree with it, but I like where you are going with it.

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I absolutely disagree as far as Identity and Connection are concerned. They are "related" jn that their both Spiritual functions but one cannot become the other. They are distinct. 

All evidence in books shows us that Identity is a marker that suffused Investiture that says "this is me/mine."

Connection on the other hand isn't Investiture in itself. It's a Spiritual force that acts upon Investiture similar to Gravity in the Physical. 

Identity can create Connection, such as between a Feruchemists and their metalmind. Likewise, Connection can effect Identity such as with the Nahel bond, but they do not become each other. 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this for now at least - I would like to make a topic latter on which will address what I think identity is - namely, the connection that connects across realms, and so binds the atoms of the physical to the cognitive component, giving them a single reflection, and ties them to the connections to other things. I will say I think identity and connection are the same in that sight and hearing are the same - both can be stored in a tin mind - or water to drink and food to eat are the same, as those can be stored. I think they are both connections, but like the symbol grounding problem, how do you define something as you without a distinct and unique connection to it, a line that says "everything this line touches is me". A unique type of connection, and something which can be stolen from the same spike that steals connection.

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And Breath gains the Identity of whoever holds it and is precisely why it can be retrieved. It is not an exception. 

Breath is specifically built to rekey itself when passed between people. 

I didn't say it isn't keyed, only that a single type of use of Breath for Awakening or related actions keeps the identity of the person who placed it on the Breath, and all the others make it lose that. And my main point was that Breath can easily gain or lose that keying.

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Azure's blade is a type IV. It's the AI equivalent. It's what Nightblood should have been if Ruin's Investiture (in my opinion) hadn't got thrown into the mix. 

It is like a Spren, I didn't address it because I had no qualms with that. I didn't say it was a different system, just a different mechanism than awakening an object. It is doing to an object wat is normally done to a corpse. Same system, different mechanic. 

Creating an entity like Nightblood or Azure's blade is less like Awakening an object in the Spiritual aspect than it is like having a child. Just like creating sentient machine would be.

And my point is that it is still using those same mechanisms - the only change is the complexity of the mind and spiritual component, not the cognitive "body" it would have, any more than Syl has a more complex body than a Santhid, but clearly has a more complex mind and range of things she can think and do.

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The same way any awakened object does. The same way that life sense grants the ability to sense living things nearby without having to look at them. It may very well be Cognitive, and that still has no bearing on that object as a living, thinking, Cognitive flame. 

The straw man is easily the most complicated command given in the book, and learning about Awakening further into the book and looking back that should be apparent. The words of the command are not the most important part. The visualization is. It was shown what to do in the command Vasher imprinted onto the Breath when speaking the command. Everything it was capable he was envisioning. 

I think it would function like any other rope with a proportionate level of Investiture based resistance. That's it. 

My point was not that it becomes a flame - that was originally for Lifeless - but that it becomes something which can sense and interact with the Cognitive realm - basically, you agree that Breath makes something into a creature in the cognitive realm, because it can sense the cognitive realm, which a typical object can't do. 

Also, you agree - the straw man is a complex command, and Vashar's skill and use of part of his body let him make it with fewer breaths than it needed - therefore, a complex command and a lot of Breath made something which could see in the cognitive realm, and thus was something which is creature in the cognitive realm, much like a mobile robot is a creature in the physical world, able to sense and interact with it. This has been the core of my argument.

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Very much disagree. 

Which part to you disagree with?

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This was never in question. That's what a type IV is. 

Just as you think Returned are not truly part of Awakening, I think that the catagories are more fluid than supposed - there is little difference between Awakened objects, and the mechanism which makes something Awakened as a Lifeless or type IV or lesser type is interchangable - it is just that the command and Breaths present in a typical object are less complex, and so it is like the distinction between a bacteria and a cat - both are alive, but one is more complex and able to perform more complex actions. That Awakening can make something into a fully functional spren for a type IV and Lifeless supports that it can make lesser things - that 2 out of the 3 have this property means the mechanism is part of Awakening.

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Not sure where this came from. I have no issue here. Investiture functioning without eyes is normal.

To sense something you need to have a presence there - I can see because my eyes can react to light, hear because of ears that pick up sounds. A regular object doesn't have the capacity to sense in the cognitive realm - the Breath gives it senses, and the ability to sense in the cognitive realm. It really sounds like you are agreeing with me on this - the Breath gives it eyes and ears in another realm, therefore they make the object more a part of that realm.

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Disagree. The object, and the Investiture are two separate things in an awakened object in my opinion. The object is completely unchanged, the Investiture just acts like a musculoskeletal system to move it. 

I take it you think a flame in the cognitive realm - the presence of a mind - is distinct from a bead then, and when the flame dies there was already a bead? I see the flame as replacing the bead, and when someone dies the flame becomes a bead, the corpse. Breath when in an object would be that flame, transforming the bead into a flame, or a creature, and thus into something which is more alive, and possibly into a full spren, though artificial. Invested things glow in the cognitive realm - someone with more Breath would glow more brightly than someone without it - where does that glow go when they Awaken something? Into the bead - or whatever it manifests as on different planets - to make it alive, to have a command, and a command is an idea, like a spren. Breath is a part of the soul of those from Nalthis - it would continue to function as a part of the soul in something else.

A robot is a creature in the physical world - for several reasons, this is something I believe. Not "alive", not necessarily, but a creature that can sense and interact with it. An Awakened object is just as much a robot in the cognitive realm, and thus has a structure there. Nightblood and Azure's blade are sapient A.I. with powerful actuators and complex sensors, and an Awakened rope is a BEAM robot with a simple motor and an LDR or touch switch. Both are creatures, but one is more readily recognised as a mind.

I think the true significance is that Hoid was actually talking about a Kandra and an Aviar! The frolicking is them using Devotion, so it confirms that Kandra and Aviar are actually able to use the Dor!

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you - been rather busy, and also need to address these points in a formal manner.

On 1/7/2019 at 6:32 PM, Calderis said:

Your overcomplicating something that is actually simple, in my opinion. 

Nightblood, Larkin, and Leechers can all drain breath that is Identity locked. But not in a usable form. The Breaths are either consumed, or if retained (Nightblood) altered In a way that they are no longer accessible for Awakening. 

For an awakened object to respond to the "your breath to mine" command, it is going to be Identity free. 

Nightblood can't even give his Breath away. There's no way it's retrievable. 

All in all, I think that you are trying to lump things together here that are not the same phenomenon. 

That is my point - they are different things, all using identity or associated with investiture, but not interfering with it. Breath or metalminds having identity doesn't mean it prevents them gaining a new identity. And the main point was that they characters have assumptions, but they are shown to be wrong - just because they don't think Breath can be taken doesn't mean it can't. Also, that quote notes that you can get the Breath back out of Nightblood, it just can't give it.

Investiture can be drained by different methods, but my point with Nightblood is it can drain things even though it was from Endowment, and Azure's sword can likewise drain investiture - the rules are not what the characters think.

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Spikes do contain the Identity of the victim (I refuse to call it a "donor" unless it was voluntary). As I said in my previous post, I think this is precisely why bind points are important and the spike must remain in. The piece of Spiritweb must remain anchored in place, and be placed precisely. I think this is entirely because that piece has a foreign Identity which would be rejected outright if it weren't anchored in place, and as such it must be placed perfectly just to function as intended. 

Good - I hate the term donor for a spike's source. I see it less like identity being an issue and more like protein folding - after all, the placement is not just about identity, but also the power granted and how it can attaches, and interacts with the person who gets a spike. Different spikes steal different attributes, but the place for Feruchemical healing is not the same as the place for Allomantic tin. The identity is irrelevant - all spikes get around it, but if you spikes Rashek for his human strength, you wouldn't place it in the same place for his Feruchemy, even though the identity is the same.

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The Nahel bond is not one thing becoming part of another. It is a symbiotic bond. There should be an Identity merger, but it's on both parts. Less a change of one to fit another, and more that two differing Identities intermingle and both become available to each other. It is a merger of two souls, not one taking over another. 

I don't see the issue with this. My point is that it is two identities interacting without issue. It was an example of identity not being a barrier for sharing investiture.

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And Breath... Breath has no Identity of its own. At least not beyond that of any inanimate thing. It's built entirely to rekey itself as its passed along. If what it is given to is, or was, a sentient or sapient being then the breath keys itself to that thing. If it is placed in, or used to animate, an object it retains the last imprint and can be recalled. 

Giving Breath an identity seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I repeat my point from before, that identity and connection are related, and one can become the other, with identity being a line down, and connection a line across. I agree Breath can have identity quickly added or quickly removed, but that just reinforces that identity for Breath is not an issue with something gaining a mind, that it can be easily discarded from Breath, or transformed into connection - and I repeat part of my post later down, that the more Breaths something has - and more Breaths are required for more complex commands - can lead to a stronger Cognitive presence. I elaborate more on how much Awakening uses the cognitive realm at the end of this post.

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Of Course there is a Cognitive part of to Awakening. That's what a Command is. A Cognitive program. But I think it's just that. A program. Just as a computer program isn't truly intelligent, an awakened object is not. It can do exactly what it has been programed (commanded) to do. Nothing more, nothing less. The better the program, the more intelligent it seems. 

For a sentient/sapient object, the process for Awakening may be similar, but I think the underlying mechanics are very very different. In standard awakening, your just telling an object to move in certain ways under certain parameters. With a Type IV, you creating an actual soul and mind that function independently and are capable of growth. For the record, I think that this is exactly what happens with Lifeless as well. It's just much much easier in a once living host, and the small amount of Investiture leaves them somewhat stunted (even if they are more intelligent than people give them credit for). 

I think you need to look more into programming - there are entire fields of engineering involving making code able to self-modify, from the value of constants used to the actual commands implemented - as an example, look up back propagation in Neural networks, where weighted values change to train the network, and many more complex examples which actually change the instructions executed. And again, Nightblood is still an Awakened object and is growing, but Vashar isn't letting himself see it, and it is very slow. My initial post is about how a sufficiently complex command and enough Breath would make something into a cognitive entity - this is exactly my point, it is just that Type IV's are able to fully manifest as something, rather than normal Awakening just letting something simply able to sense the cognitive realm, but potentially interact with it as well, or simply appear as a life in it. To quote my first post: "A rope invested with a few breaths might manifest in the Cognitive realm - either on Nalthis or where ever else it could be produced - would begin to appear less like a "glass bead" (or whatever the local equivalent is) and more as an organism in the Cognitive realm, either aware of the Cognitive realm like a spren / spren not fully in the physical realm, or even the flame that corresponds to life in the physical. Lifeless, with only a single needed breath, might also appear as a flame. The more breaths involved in something, or the more organic it was, the more the Cognitive component would transform, and so anything Awakened would begin to appear as a native creature of the Cognitive realm, or at least more alive."

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(Side tangent here: as much as Vasher placed them as a part of Awakening, the direct involvement of Endowment, the endowment of Sliver, and the fact that the Returned are actually the CS of a person and not a creation of Breath makes me think that they should not actually be included as a part of Awakening. They are something completely unto themselves. Awakening is a relatively young art, and as much as Vasher and the scholars knew, they are still capable of mistakes. They fit their understanding of the Returned into the system as they saw it... But I think they got this part wrong.)

I fully agree with this statement, and it a point that needs to be made - that the characters can make mistakes, and apply rules incorrectly. This is part of my argument as well.

Lets consider Nightblood to be an investiture black hole - something in how it was made made it able to consume investiture - this seems to be something common to Type IV's, as Azure's blade shows, and might work on similar principles to Larken or Chromium, or might be completely unrelated. What is shown is Nightblood consumes it more rapidly, and completely, than the others do. But if Nightblood is an investiture black hole, it might be that one can still make an investiture neutron star. Azure's blade seems to be one. Also, Azure's blade's interactions with the Honourspren also shows that it has a mind more complex than what one would typically associate with non-aware investiture - it scanned it and displayed some traits of a mind. Therefore, I argue it is a mind, and thus a creature or life in the cognitive realm. And any identity the Breath might have had (if we assume Breath automatically associates itself with the identity of whatever it is placed in, and if that thing has no identity it uses its connection to the person placing it as a substitute, identity and connection can be changed from one to the other).

And again, my point is further reinforced by Nightblood, which - like Azure's blade - proves that an Awakened object can become the equivalent of a spren - I repeat this point because you didn't seem to address it. It is explicitly called a robot spren, and is - unless there is a statement otherwise - something that can be repeated with Awakening normally. Perhaps Nightblood is a mixture of different systems working together, but I repeat, if Nightblood is an investiture. An artificial organism in the cognitive realm is still a creature, whether or not it is fully alive. Just like Vashar's little straw men.

Lets us focus in on them then. Two questions, which I will answer, and I would like to know how you see this. The first is how did Vashar's little men know how to find keys if they didn't have any eyes in the physical world, let alone anything given a command to act on the environment given certain conditions? The second is, what do you think would happen is someone tried to soulcast a rope which had been given the command to search out keys (like the straw Vashar gave the command to) if they are blue, and if they are blue to go around a building and try them in every lock, opening it if it works, and then return to the person who Awakened it and coil around there arm the number of times corresponding to the floor the door it openned is on?

The answer to the first question is, I think, it senses through the Cognitive realm, or the cognitive and spiritual. This implies it has a capacity to sense and interact with Cognitive entities. The second, is the rope wouldn't just say "I am a rope", but rather "I am a rope which is to seek out blue keys, test them on doors, and report back which door a key opened."

So, in conclusion:

• Awakening an object so that it can have investiture removed from it is the exception, not the rule, likely due to identity and connection being interchangeable
• Nightblood is an investiture black hole, but Azure's blade could be an investiture neutron star - similar properties, but distinct
• Azure's blade reinforced the idea of type IV's as having minds
• Awakened objects seem to be able to sense using the Cognitive realm - which seems to me to be a far more plausible idea than them making the equivalent of eyes to see the physical realm
• An Awakened object has a more complex identity than a non-Awakened object, and likely would be able to communicate this fact
• ... technically, I didn't mention this in the main part of this, but metal minds are called metal minds because they have a stronger presence in the cognitive realm - Brandon has so far been very consistent in names being significant to the magic systems (e.g. allomancy using metal to see the future, hemalurgy using blood and metal to make a new substance, etc.)

2 hours ago, _Tempus_ said:

The Cognitive Realm exists only in a planet if there are people inhabiting them or something.

A slight clarification - the Cognitive realm is expanded on a planet if there is life, but all things have a manifestation in the cognitive realm, its just that empty space or places without life are very small.

To answer the question - the expanses, as covered in the coppermind, are actually the paths to different planets, with each planet covered in the article. There isn't a clear answer as to how to get to the gas giants, or the moons, but my own theory is it is either a path one can take while moving towards the expanses, like the expanse of the densities, or via the nexuses, as they resemble the expanses in being like mountains.

@Eris To the best of my knowledge, anything you write or made yourself, which can include outlines as well as short stories, chapters of a book, art, poems, or just requests for feedback on partially completed or fully completed work. Though I think art is mainly supposed to go to the gallery. Fanfics are also allowed to be posted - again, to the best of my knowledge - and basically this is where you can post any of your own stories :-) Hope that helps!

@Calderis Ahhh sorry for the ambiguity. What I was getting at was your issue with items with identity from a source preventing them from becoming independent or associated with a new identity or someone else's identity.

Breaths, hemalurgy, and spren bonds all involve tying investiture with its own identity into something else, and it then becomes a part of that something else, despite still having its own identity. Your argument seems to be that Breaths still retain the identity of the person who used them, even though three of the four types of BioChromatic types either have sentience or can't have their Breaths forcibly removed - which probably means even those which aren't considered sentient actually are, or are sufficiently alive to count. And that quote isn't actually addressing my argument for metalminds - more on that at the end of this post.

Nightblood also drains Breath from someone, which is something that shouldn't be possible. I think that much like with the rules of Allomancy, that you can't push on someone else's metals if they are in the person's body, or sense through copper. I think that enough Breaths - and that is a vague term, but my point remains, as the more Breaths needed, the more complex the command, the more complex and invested the Awakened object. Indeed, for the Breaths example, I think what I am proposing is the exact same thing as what has been shown: enough Breaths in an object, and then given a complex command, resulted in something aware. The only question than is does it have to be in metal? Basically, Nightblood, Lifeless, and to a lesser extent Returned, are all BioChromatic manifestations with unique prescences in the cognitive realm, and account for three of the four types of Awakened types, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the a complex command with a large amount of Breaths would cause something which can still have the Breath removed from it to begin to appear more like a non-sapient spren in the cognitive realm than like a non-invested piece of material, up to and including becoming fully sapient, and thus like Nightblood, and immune to having its Breath removed.

... Actually, do you know of any quote from Brandon which says Nightblood can't have his Breath removed? I mean, aside form the fact that the person who made it is dead? Also, when passing Breaths to someone, what makes the Breath lose the identity of the person passing it, as that same command is also used to simply place Breath into an item? The fact that the person targeted already has an identity?

Spikes have the identity of the person they came from, yet can become part of someone else. Spren also have a seperate identity to the knight, but they are bonded - something I want to talk about later is the idea of Identity being a type of connection (basically, identity and connection are both links, just in different directions, with identity touching things that are you, and connection touching things that are related to you). I think that identity can become connection if the item which is tied to the identity becomes sentient - and the recent chart of Hemalurgy supports that, with a spike that can steal both connection and identity. I think connection and identity can be interchanged - identity a line "down", everything in the column a part of the person, and connection a line "across", everything it touches is something related to the person. A metalmind could be seen to be part of the person, and then become something distinct yet related. A spren bonded to a person ties the two of them together. Having a seperate identity does not mean you can't become part of something else's identity, and coming from someone elses identity doesn't mean you can't gain your own.

Also, my point wasn't that an awakened object or metalmind would become a sapient spren, any more than stick is sapient, but rather would gain a degree of sentience, a capacity to communicate to a cogintive traveller or other entity things about itself, including arguing with them or being persuaded to perform a different task, or able to have memory and interact with cognitive objects - i.e. more like a Santhid than like Syl, or like a robot Santhid, or like a Lifeless. Something that looks like a lifeform, and can act like a lifeform, but might not actually be as organic in its mind as a lifeform, though spren are also potentially rigid in their thinking. The Awakened object, and to a lesser extent a metalmind having a type of mind, but bot a full mind, being a full cognitive creature like a machine. Basically, and this is the reason I listed the types of spren initially, I think that Breaths, and metal minds have a more promonent presence in the cogntivie realm than the material they were made from originally had, and especially for Breaths, that can manifest as a cognitive entity, with Nightblood, explicitly called a robot spren, and Lifeless, which Brandon has said are more aware than people think, as the supports for that claim.

@Calderis What about Nightblood the robot spren? Or someone with a hemalurgic spike, which would increase their investiture with added investiture from another source with its own identity, and would allow them to last longer in the cogntive realm after dying before fading away (I think that is the quote)? Lifeless, which Brandon has said are more self-aware than anyone suspects?

@Eris I don't think I have enough time at the moment to go search through them to find good quotes ... but I can point you to certain scenes in Warbreaker (its been a little too long since I read Wheel of Time to think of good examples of Mat, other than (Wheel of Time spoiler)

Also, before mentioning Warbreaker spoilers, and trying to make them as non-spoiler as possible, I recommend reading Warbreaker, and making note of any scene where a character is attributed certain characteristics, especially by themselves. You will see them change, or a reveal about the true nature of what they meant.

So, as mild a set of spoilers as possible - to the point they are only kind of spoilers for Warbreaker

@Eris If you don't mind some of them coming from a villain, there are characters in Warbreaker who are excellent. Not just villains, but Warbreaker is all about the disconnect between how characters see themselves, how others see them, who they are, and who they become.

Also, and I know this is the Stormlight section, inside the Cosmere section, but Mat from the Wheel of Time is also great as a character who thinks one thing, says another, and does a third.

@RShara I don't know how much the different powers can be used to map to the shard - shards control how the power is accessed, but not the power, so Ruin, with weak future sight, or relatively weak, still granted future sight with Atium, etc.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Thanks :-) I'll give a more full response later, but thanks for the link! I need to gather my thoughts a bit before responding.

@RShara Nice theory :-) My own was that the magic was a combination of Odium and Cultivation's presence in the background altering the magic, so you have both cultivated infections, but the hatred of being sick.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Ixthos

Mistborn Spoilers

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No, you wouldn't say "I used iron" because there is a need to differentiate between the different systems which all use the same metals. Because Metal is Scadrial's magical focus. 

I believe, mainly because of the voidbinding charts altered expression of the Surges, that the Surges themselves are Roshar's focus. Just as the Foci for Nalthis and Sel are Commands and Forms respectively. 

Multiple systems using the same focus should function similarly but different. Tin is a prime example. Allomantically enhances senses. Stores senses. Steals senses. Same focus, three different systems, three similar yet very different expressions. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. But in case you haven't seen it, I've argued quite adamantly that... 

 

Mistborn spoilers:

I don't know if surges are focii - I still think that focii are not as universal as might be assumed (Warbreaker spoilers)

But I think that my "love, fear, sense, project" example still works. I think we are talking about the same thing, but using different terms.

Also, this might surprise you, but I agree that the Fused aren't "voidbinding". Or rather, they aren't using "void surges", but rather a single voidbinding to access the surges - the Unmade grant voidbinding, not as the only source, but they grant it, and one of them grants access to the surges. I think they are using a void to access surges, not using voids as powers themselves. (Mistborn spoilers)

[Edit] A quick search showed the Unmade granted "Surges", but no surgebinding. I can't find anything addressing anyone other than Knights having Surgebinding, but have found references to others using surges. I could be wrong, but it seems that Surges are distinct from Surgebinding.

[Edit 2] It looks like they call the Fused enemy surgebinders, though again this doesn't mean they are correct, as mistborn showed, characters can make mistaken conclusions.

I think I might do that :-)

Sorry for the delay in responding everyone.

@Invocation Thanks :-) I'll give the topic a look, though off hand I actually don't think Scadrial will develop shardblades per se - I think they will make invested weapons, but probably ranged, just as others will start to develop ranged weapon.

@tmnsquirtle A Feruchemist sees their metalmind as more than just metal. If soulcast, it wouldn't say "I am tin", it would say "I store senses", or even "I store senses for Saze". It would have extra investiture, and extra investiture increases its cognitive presence. Even if regularly depleted, it would still think of itself as a container, just, as @Lidolas notes, as a cup would.

@Quantus Agreed on the ship count. And agreed with your agreement with Lidolas ;-)

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I think the key difference is, like you noted, the spren and deadeyes are part of both worlds, or at least are more cognitive than normal matter. When they transitioned over - their cloths didn't turn into beads. Spren, even those that bonded a knight, are from the Cognitive Realm and are still partially present in it in a more intimate way than the cognitive component of a physical object, so the accident that sent them there is probably going to affect them differently than it affects objects which exist mainly in the physical. The link in my first post actually is to a topic I made about the differences between subastrals or regions of the cognitive realm.

Nightblood is an interesting case - I think whatever it looks like in the cognitive realm would either prove or disprove this theory. I think Nightblood can actually grow the more investiture it has metabolised, but while absorbing investiture it is overwhelmed by the command, not letting anything it has learnt deter it from its goal.

 I am going to make a slightly stretchy conjecture: Awakening is like an inverse of the spren transitioning into the physical realm. Spren - when transitioning into the physical realm - look a little like their cognitive component - as they are entirely cognitive component - and seem to mainly lose parts of themselves when becoming physical, needing an anchor to regrow themselves, but obviously still maintaining some physical form. I think Awakening an object has a similar result - an increased presence in another realm, only without loosing the physical component due to the Breath forming that link. Or, to put it in other words, it depends on if Breath is more like a spren or more like a spike - does it exist mainly physically or mainly in the cognitive? If cognitive, then it would manifest as something in the cognitive realm, and would be shaped by the command into an artificial spren.

Basically, I think for Awakening, if you tried to soulcast it, it would tell you its command in addition to what it is, and the more complex the command, the more like a spren it would be. And a metalmind would behave more like a mind than something which isn't storing investiture would.

On 1/2/2019 at 1:24 AM, Calderis said:

@Ixthos and I think that Rosharans would refer to any magic as Surges, the same way the refer to all sentient splinters as spren.

I see where you are coming from, but remember they also have the old magic, called magic, they don't say the shardblades - which I think they believe are divine, just as the powers are divine - are using surges. I think they think of the surges as a natural part of reality - a natural set of forces - and that anything which isn't a surge is magic. So far, they haven't encountered anything other than the Old Magic which could be called magic by them, or they knew to be magic, like Azure's abilities.

A few parts of your quote I am going to shift to the end of this, as they all touch on an idea I want to address near the end of this.

Quote

It wouldn't be the same. Just as the spren and the honorblades or, if I'm correct, the Fused access them in the same way. But it's still the same expression. Whereas Renarin's Illumination is very different. 

I think, so far, Renarin is the only voidbinding we've seen at all. 

[...]

Voidbindings manipulation of that surge has, again in my opinion, yet to be seen. 

Maybe you are right, and if Brandon has said that voidbinding hasn't shown up yet my argument might be wrong - but I don't think he has said it hasn't shown up. I think Unmade voidbind all their powers, and the surges are different from voids, and Fused use a void to access a surge. Until we learn more, it will be difficult to make a fully solid argument, as much of this is speculation. And I appreciate your arguments on this, I just disagree with them, as you disagree with this one.

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They use Surges to mimic Surgebinding. Just as the could use the same Surges to mimic Voidbinding. 

This isn't what Brandon said, he was answering the question, he didn't propose the term "surge of voidbinding", and the questioner actually changed what they said when speaking - they actually backed up and said stages. Fabrials can mimic surgebinding, but that doesn't mean they are surgebinding, only using the surges. In world, has anyone said the Fabrials are surgebinding, or rather do they say, are using a surge?

Quote

[...]

The Surges in the voidbinding chart are the exact same Surges altered to have rotational symmetry. Same surge, different expression. 

[...]

I also think that it could manipulate gravity in ways that neither of them. Do on their own. The Chasmfiends gemhearts are basically organic fabrials doing their own thing. 

[...]

The "surge of Gravitation" is any manipulation of gravity, at least in the way that I think that Rosharans would describe it. Surgebindings use if Gravitation is anything Kaladin and Szeth do using Surgebinding. 

[...]

Mistborn spoilers.

Going back to Roshar, If, for example, the surge of division can be used to burn something, and the surge of division - using your terms - can be voidbound to make objects invisible because it divides light striking it, is it still a surge? Rather, I would argue, it is a similar concept - dividing something - but used differently, and not accessible to someone who has complete control of the surge, any more than someone with complete control of the surge of division when used in voidbinding could use it to burn something - see below.

I think we might be using different terms here, maybe we mean the same thing or have the same idea but are describing them differently - I see there as being voids that match surges. Surgebinding binds surges. Voidbinding would not affect surges, but rather their void equivalents. I see it like if someone could control electrons, does that mean they could control positrons? Are electrons positrons? Avoiding the idea of positrons and electrons being the same thing moving backwards in time, I would say no - they are similar, can do similar things, but also are opposites, and things behave inversely. Or, if someone could sense white holes, and someone else could also sense black holes, is that the same thing?

Lets quickly make up a magic: "I grant you the Sense of Love!" "I grant you the Sense of Fear!" "I grant you the Projection of Love!". Love can be both Sensed and Projected. Sense can apply to both Love and Fear. You don't use the Sense of Love to Project Love, you use the Projection of Love, with Love having two parts.

Perhaps this is semantics, but to summarise what I see as the difference: If Kaladin could control gravity completely, do anything with the surge of gravity that gravity can do, would he be able to voidbind gravity, or would voidbound gravity do something unrelated to physical or spiritual? Is voidbound gravity actually something which doesn't produce a gravitational effect, but rather a force similar to gravity but distinct from it?

Maybe we mean the same thing, but I think surges and voids are paired, are part of the same whole (that is, gravity is both a surge and a void, and the surge of gravity is only part of gravity), and Voidbinding is binding the void corresponding to gravity, rather than the surge corresponding to gravity. When someone says gravity, it could mean surge or void. The life on Roshar can use the surge of gravity to decrease their weight, but none can use the void of gravity. Surges are an expression of the forces, and voids are a different expression.

@Eris Brandon has said that the parings are natural thing on the planet - link here - likely tied to how people perceive them, so the essences and surges pairing is due to how people think of the properties and relationships between various materials. So those surges exist because they are seen to be fundamental, and seem to cover a broad range. If you've read any of his other writing you might recognise similar principles in other systems he wrote - they use the same base rules, applied differently. There is probably going to be more complex interactions later in the series as well.

Also, Brandon recently said that he had to restrain himself to make sure that he didn't go overboard with possibilities - link - One of the rules for writing magic systems he uses is that what it can't do is more important and interesting than what it can.

The surges likely are more complex than they initially appear, and as they are supposed to be based on fundamental forces of the real world, if someone were able to completely control just gravity - which is both a surge in the setting and a real world fundamental force - they would have amazing power.

Now, without going too much into spoilers for other series, it is possible to gain magic from one system using another, and Fabrials can also be used, so it isn't impossible to gain access to more than two surges, and surges further apart than usual ... I think there is a lot of potential complexity in surgebinding.

In-system space travel. The fifth arc will end with Odium either dead or re-imprisoned, with the ... characters who wrote the three letters in Oathbringer reaching out across the spiritual realm to interfere with him - they have been directly referred to in the story ("it will draw out powers that could hurt him"), and which have stated - or at least one has stated about Odium - "If he becomes a problem, he will be dealt with". Maybe those characters will need help, and ten protagonists will fight to contain Odium while he is restrained by those characters, or whoever takes up Odium after the characters kill his predecessor will need to be contained. And that will give them time to develop space ships which will be restricted to their home system, and they will then travel to the other planets around their star, which they learnt in Oathbringer that some have life on them - though some they learnt are further out than their home system.

I'm convinced that Truthwatchers have a spiritual laser that lets them attack negative or harmful magic, so they can both burn away negative investiture while healing someone with that same laser. Cultivation isn't just growing something, but cutting off the dead limbs, removing parasites.

Its been a while since I watched it, but I enjoyed it when I did. It has been years though.

Still, mentioning that on this forum ... Mistborn and Sixth of the Dusk spoilers: