Ixthos

I just stopped reading at this line to make this post:

From Secret Project 3 - did we just get a new Shard name, AND a statement about her fate? From the text:

So, she splintered herself? Also, I am sure I remember something saying that - at least during Stormlight era - only four Shards were splintered (Devotion, Dominion, Ambition, and Honour). Am I misremembering? If I have it correctly, then that would mean this takes place after Stormlight.

Wait, this is a thing? Huh, cool 

Keep up the good work guys! Though maybe also tag the 'Sharder in question so they know if they are being talked about - I imagine I'm not the only person who just stumbled on this.

2 hours ago, melaan enjoyer said:

Hello all!

quick intro: I read rithmatist when I was 9 and it instantly became my favourite book. It remained my favourite book until I started getting into the cosmere at around 15 and since then, I have always been a pretty big fan of his work. I have listened to hours of the 17th shard podcast, and lurk on the subreddit constantly, I've just never contributed much in either community.

this all changed approximately 12 days ago. where I was once a pretty big fan, but not all that into the larger machinations of the cosmere, i now suffer from cosmere syndrome, a condition where i am constantly thinking about the cosmere and just about nothing else most waking hours.

currently frothing, gnawing, chewing and biting everytime mr sanderson posts anything on youtube and i've been slowly but surely going insane as march progresses. I cannot understate how excited I am for the excerpts of books 3 and 4, and created a 17th shard account to finally get around to reading Aether of the Night 

i do want to be a more active member of the fandom and am also hoping to make some friends along the way : )

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your time here  what is your favourite cosmere book or series so far?

1 hour ago, CryoZenith said:

It's not standard package, it's budget :D. And as the guide specifically said, the budget package comes with temporary memory loss :D.

So I don't think that's suspicious. I do agree that the second part is very suspicious, though - traveling in a way that destroys the guidebook is definitely not part of any package.

Maybe it was the really really budget package 

Just now, mathiau said:

If we're gonna question whether Tanavast and Rayse were human, we might as well do the same for Rayse and Leras

I did give my reasons for assuming they aren't. Part of me assumes that shapeshifters in the Cosmere default to their natural forms when they die - the impact of Ati's "puppet with spiders under its skin" seemed to have vanished after he died. As I said in the post, they could be but I'm assuming if we saw the corpse and it was human, then the Vessel was human.

Brandon recently said that of the Shards only Cultivation is a dragon at the moment.

Quote

Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Only one dragon right now. What about in the past? It seems I'm not the only person who has this theory:

Quote

Pagerunner

There is currently one dragon on Roshar. Before Tanavast died, were there two dragons on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha ha ha, RAFO. Nice try.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Though note this was originally asked a few months before the first question.

I'm wondering - could any of the dead vessels have been dragons? It seems odd that only one dragon would be there, or have taken up a Shard as we know Frost was there or involved, as he implies when talking to Hoid in the second letter, talking about the destruction they have caused.

So, could Tanavast, Aona, and/or Skai have been dragons? It would certainly make Rayse more impressive in a way, a human who slew three "dragon-gods", assuming his corpse is indicative of his originally being human. It also makes Tanavast even more noble - he wasn't a human, but he still loved them and died fighting to protect them.

For this I'm assuming that the corpse of a slain Vessel of a Shard is an accurate indication of its original morphology, so Rayse, Ati, and Leras may be dragons, but I'm assuming they aren't.

Still, what do you think? It feels strange to me if there was only one dragon at the Shattering that took up a Shard, but do you think its possible? Have a good morning or afternoon or evening or night!

So, we know they can visit and claim worlds of a lower technological level than their own in this setting - the person who purchases a dimension is stated to "own" it, and the entire population, and is free to live and rule as they choose - including their control over the populace.

So what if there are more advanced dimensions than the one the protagonist comes from, and they are the source of the technology? Or even if they aren't, what if his dimension is unknowingly owned by someone else?

... Sleep tight!

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Camouflage? He suspected to be hunted.

That seems to be the greater stretch - it seems much more likely that this isn't a world he bought but which he entered for some purpose (consider his skill set as an infiltrator and his immediate instincts to hide and use a weapon) than for his transfer to have taken longer when he's on seemingly on the run and encountering people who want him dead who arrived at a place he just bought head of him. Of the two him being mistaken as to his precise situation (as he has been shown to be before) is much more likely than this being the standard method of entry into a world where others have already entered to hunt someone who is described as looking different from him but that's because he changed his appearance. It still could be the second, but the second requires more assumptions, including of which being that he, dazed and confused and missing his memory, correctly guessed that he owns this world - a world he assumed only authorised people can enter.

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. Hence I suspect somebody attacked him while transferring.

But now that you mention it, there is an even wilder hypothesis. They were deliberately looking for dimensions with slower technological development. Probably because those with faster or equal development may strike back effectively. However, fast worlds should have the same technologies. Do we know they are from the same dimension? Are they looking for him or another version of him with minor differences, hair color included?

I actually was just going to post a theory speculating on whether there are more advanced dimensions than the one he is from, but either way his current memories indicate the dimensions they travel to are deliberately chosen to be lower tech - either way if they are looking for a different version of him that would mean this isn't a dimension this version bought but one that another version bought.

55 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You are making two unstated assumptions, which may, but need not be true

• transfers take roughly the same time, that is you cannot get a nicer and faster transfer if you pay extra
• this is a pursuit, not an ambush

If we are talking about their dimension and the protagonist is a thief and intruder, we'll have to solve one basic problem. How did they know that he is coming?

An ambush for someone else. The people - or one of the people - who wants the protagonist dead are looking for someone with red hair, and the protagonist is deliberately dressed as an aelv - i.e. an elf. If this was the world he had bought, why are people from his dimension hunting someone else?

Quote

“Ha!” the lord said. “Again, you think I’ve not heard any ballads? Besides, though I suspect you have the power of glamor when not inverted, you don’t have it now. You aren’t red-haired, nor do you have the features of a foreigner, like the man they claim to be hunting—so they wouldn’t want you.”

Wait.

The men weren’t looking for me?

I also have a hard time believing that arriving in the middle of a fire ball with your memories gone is the standard package.

[Edit] Furthering that point, if it is the standard package, why was the book the transferee needed destroyed by said fireball?

21 hours ago, Myuken said:

Yes, my straw-grasping theory is that the Iriali are the first Elantrians, they built Elantris when Aona and Skai were alive. They moved away when Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion. All disappearing at the same time leaving an empty city that stays empty until another people arrive. To note Iri and Ali would both works as Aons, we don't have their meaning but we know we don't have all of the Aons in the Ars Arcanum. Another point is that except the boat Sprens in Shadesmar, the Elantrians and the Iriali are the only people described as having Metallic skins, Iriali as Gold and Elantrians as Silver, now I'm reaching but Elantrians being the 2nd Silver version to the 1st Gold version lend itself well in a medal reference of sort. This would also fit well as a not really human ancestry depending on your definition.

This would makes Sel the 1st Land.

This. This is now one of my favourite Cosmere theories. I like this theory so much!

The question becomes if this is true: are they still connected to Devotion and Dominion and / or Sel and the Dor, and did their quest and belief begin before or after Devotion and Dominion were splintered - is this perhaps something Aona and Skai were planning from the start?

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We can assume that bad fish is cheap whence he came. It would explain his horrible attitude. He seems to be the type who does things on a budget.

• If you are being hunted, buying a place nobody can get at you secured by the laws of quantum mechanics will make sense
• He had mental reservations against the concept of unauthorized transfers of possessions
• He was on a guilt trip about his late wife's desire to own her own dimension

Strangers who were there first, at least long enough to establish a presence with the local population, as well as those from his own world actively looking for someone else, implies he doesn't own that dimension. As there isn't time travel - or at least time travel hasn't been introduced as part of the setting - it seems like this isn't a world he bought for himself, but rather someone else's which he gained access to.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Indeed

 Fish lovers unit! Fish is not my favourite food, but it is nice

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I suppose he smelt something unpleasant, namely smoke, and associated with stuff he dislikes.
I would guess that he was pursued and fired upon when he made the transfer to his owned dimension, hence the immolated plants. Either some kind of ray gun or a side effect of damaged equipment.

I'm not so sure, though it could be that. I personally think he likely was near to fish just before it happened (or maybe this setting has anthropomorphic fish assassins and he just escaped an attack by them). I think he was probably in some sort of aquatic setting just before he arrived.

Also, I'm not so sure he owns the dimension he's currently in. He my have assumed he did because the handbook mentions things that jogged his memory, but remember he also made several assumptions about himself and his situation before that, so it is possible he just assumed it was his. If he woke up holding car keys to a car, he likely would assume the car was his, even if he had just stolen it - he knows these dimensions are supposed to be isolated and only allow access to those who have the key, but that is already questionable with the other people in that dimension. Somehow they got in, and were there first - it probably isn't a place he bought.

1 hour ago, Johnny Silverlight said:

Another possibility: His last meal on Earth included fish. Whether or not he ate it (perhaps feeling for some reason that he had to), he might still remember being disgusted by the smell when he was transferred to "his" dimension.

Hmmm ... could be, though it seems a bit odd.

"All right, this is my last meal before I leave for good. What should I have ... what should I have? Any suggestions?"

"Well, our fish is excellent."

"I don't like fish. Its always got some hidden bones ready to stick you, and it comes apart too easily. And the taste! Eeew!"

"So ...?"

"I'd love to have some! Sign me up!" 

First, putting aside how he is wrong, and fish - when cooked properly - is amazing (and lets not forget sushi), it is interesting that his first thought upon awakening or becoming conscious is that he doesn't like fish. So, what was happening moments before? I assume fish somehow tie into it, but he was in the middle of burning plant matter, so it probably happened just before or was related to just before he arrived.

So, for what reason was how much didn't like fish the first thing he thought about? 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you take that to its logical conclusions, you'll get some strange results. Like the distance between, for example, Nalthis and Roshar should increase, if Scadrial introduced astronomy into its mandatory curriculum. In fact do we even know paths in the CR are universal for everybody? As important as Intent is elsewhere that would surprise me.

I've added a quote [Edit: two quotes] from Brandon at the end of this post which implies only physical realm inhabitation is going to have an affect on the Cognitive Realm, but baring that I don't think that would be a major issue setting wise - the Cosmere is filled with people whose actions have impacted others where in theory they didn't have any stake.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is a subastral whose shape is constrained by the physical planet.

I'm afraid I don't see why that would be an issue? The planets also move through empty space, tracing ovals around their stars, and that space isn't constrained by the planet and yet it also isn't affected. Why would the planet's presence be an issue?

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What happens if you just dump your trash? In fact, people eat in the CR. That must have consequences. What happens to that? If you don't know its there will the next group of travellers encounter it?

I imagine they already have been doing that if they are going to do that at all, and we haven't received any info on that being a factor - maybe items left by themselves in the Cognitive Realm which aren't alive will disappear without Investiture to maintain them. 

Trains would also likely reduce this - if not people using the bins on the train, then if it did cause an issue the managers of the railway would notice litter disrupts their train tracks and take steps to prevent it. If someone littering caused problems with your business you have a lot of incentives to keep it down, and trains in and of themselves likely would reduce the amount of litter someone travelling between two points produces.

This quote more or less sums up the situation, and why this shouldn't in theory be an issue.

Quote

Questioner

In the Cosmere, as space becomes more developed...*inaudible* outer space.

Brandon Sanderson

It's an interesting question that I've had to ponder. Would the space race happen more slowly because there's an alternative, or would it happen more quickly because you know other planets are inhabited. I'm not going to answer what I came up with, because it's a plot point in the books. So I'll give you a RAFO card, but that's the question to ask yourself.

Questioner

That wasn't my question! My question was, in the Cognitive Realm, with the gap between planets...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh! Will the gap between planets get larger as more people travel in between it. So, barring things like space stations, there's going to be so few minds in between, that I don't expect space to become larger because of that.

I don't expect it to be a factor, except--barring--there will be possibilities of certain regions popping up.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

In essence Brandon doesn't think the space between planets will be meaningfully affected by people travelling between them.

[Edit] A second quote about how space is too big for human understanding to fully understand and impact it:

Quote

Dallen Powell

Is it easier to travel in the Cognitive Realm because people in the Physical Realm don't understand the immensity of space, and their lack of comprehension condenses the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd say that's a factor, yeah. Definitely a factor. I think it's impossible to comprehend the immensity of space even with all the visualizations I've seen.  Yeah, definitely. Good question. 

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

35 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But when do you think more about an area than when you pass through it? In other words does the very act of travel deform the CR?

 

Spren cities have human visitors, and it isn't implied that the locations were settled and then expanded but rather that they just set up there for whatever reason - neither human nor spren presence seems to have had a lasting impact on Shadesmar's size based on the Cognitive Realm inhabitants, so it may depend entirely on the Physical Realm inhabitants. There are also caravans, travellers on foot, etc., and they don't seem to have issues walking from one planet to another. On a train they likely wouldn't see or think much about the area the train moves through, and even if they did their attention would likely be on the train, and any changes could affect the "area" of the train, assuming those thoughts would have an impact. I suspect a slow caravan across Shadesmar with several people in it would have a greater impact - if they do have an impact - than a train moving at speed and hardly spending time across any area that corresponds to several lightyears.

Just now, Lunu’anaki said:

The impression I get is that one mind doesn't have much of a noticeable impact on the CR, it's more about a "collective consciousness" if you will. So... one person traveling through space probably has a lot less of an impact on the CR than one person teaching an entire planet what space is, even if they've never visited.

Agreed - it is the accumulation of thoughts, and over time - it isn't instantaneous. We also don't know if it is "distributed" as well, if a small area being thought about will expand more than a large - lightyear long - area being thought about.

46 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Now I want a Cognitive realm Brandon version of Murder on the Orient Express  

"Murder on the Shadesmar Express", and "Mystery of the Azure Train" 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is on a planet, not in interstellar space. Are we sure that the representation of interstellar space even exists while nobody is passing through?

It does, or rather, it doesn't - space concatinates where minds aren't present or they aren't thinking about it, and that allows one to walk from planet to planet:

Quote

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

Bearing in mind vanish doesn't mean it is now a hole in Shadesmar, but rather is now no-longer reflected there, and so the place would be desolate ground.

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Kalad's phantoms had mechanical joints in the stone. Awakening cannot (or at least does not natively) alter the intrinsic physical properties of the material, it cannot make solid objects more flexible, liquids more cohesive, etc. 

I appreciate those quotes but this still doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe this is covered somewhere in Warbreaker, its been a while since I read it, but Kalad's Phantoms would stick out more clearly to anyone watching if the individual pieces of stone were held together by Breath, especially to the rare seventh heightening person who saw them. And it still doesn't answer how the bones got into the stone to begin with.

I know those quotes don't support my theory, and I suppose this means the theory is likely wrong, but it always seemed to me that the bones had somehow been phased into the stone - rather than stone cemented around them - and then Awakened. The Breath could then "soften" the stone at the joints when they were ordered to move in much the same way the bones could have been placed in the stone, or perhaps break them and then function as sinew, then repair them later when they stopped functioning as soldiers. Brandon's quotes make this unlikely, but his answer raises more questions - how did the bones get in the stone?

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How solid is the CR really on those distances without people watching?

Solid as in the space being ground? Likely very - consider the oceans of Roshar being solid ground for the spren upon which they build their cities. If it isn't observed then it becomes solid - it is only where life and people live that regions expand and become oceans of mist or beads or any other substance. Space, which is even less observed than the physical oceans, is likely very stable both in size and composition.

19 minutes ago, Olmund said:

This is a good point. Imagine having to maintain a railway in an area where the landmass is constantly stretching/warping/expanding to accommodate new minds/settlements/ideas in the physical realm -- it would be a nightmare. It would be like plate tectonics in our world (which does provide minor/major disruptions from time to time) but on a much more frequent basis.

Real world trains tracks have gaps in them to accommodate their lengths changing as they heat up or cool down, so slight changes in distance likely wouldn't be a problem. However I don't think this would be an issue between planets. The Cognitive Realm changes very slowly - there is a delay before changes in the Physical Realm filter through, and belief takes a while to affect them likewise. Space, being unobserved across the lightyears that separate planets, likely is incredibly stable, and likely only changes slightly over any given period, enough for any issues to be corrected over time. For the space between subasterals to change significantly would require large scale observation of the space between planets - and the inhabitation of that space - across millions of kilometres. 

6 minutes ago, QafianSage said:

Regarding Kalad's Phantoms, I have to admit that my assumption was that the statues they were encased in were jointed, or otherwise had 'bendable bits'. Though thinking back on that, someone ought to have noticed that while they were hanging out as D'Denir statues. 

If Awakening can make hard things bendable, that does beg the question why wooden soldiers weren't used. Maybe it's the problem of complexity of commands?

Breath can be used to change memories, such as with Vasher and the child - it isn't just joined statues, but actually getting the bones in the stone to begin with, and in a way that wouldn't just open easily again afterwards. [Edit] Basically I'm arguing that Breath can affect more than we suspect.

Its the amount of Breaths and the robustness of the material. Lifeless can be awakened with only one Breath and naturally follow complex commands due to their brains. Wood likely would require more Breath and would be less flexible with their commands, and wouldn't have that much of an advantage in combat.

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Given the way we've seen matter both imported to and manifested in the CR, I see no reason to rule this out, except that it may not fit with the stories Brandon has in mind.  ;-)

 We'll just have to see. What's nice about the Cosmere is that technology changes over time - maybe this will be one of the earlier methods that gets changed later.

17 minutes ago, QafianSage said:

So, a question about Awakening: Anyone know what happens if you Awaken a non-flexible object with a Command which would involve movement? For instance, taking a log of wood and Commanding it to "Jump". Would the Command just not work, as if you didn't put enough Breath in? Would the wood 'try' to obey, but just not be able to? Would it tear its own fibers apart?

For that matter, could you Awaken something with a self-destructive Command, like telling a log to "Split" or a cloth to "Tear yourself"?

For the first point, remember that Kalad's Phantoms were Lifeless made of bones encased in stone - the bones somehow got inside the stone, and then the statues were able to move. I think Awakening can affect the properties of the material very profoundly - it likely can make solid material soft and soft material solid as required. 

For the second point, I think you likely can - I don't see why the material would now follow the command if phrased correctly.

Considering Scadrial's history with canals and trains, and the Cognitive Realm's nature as a generally solid surface between planets, I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of Cognitive Realm travel between planets is actually handled by a railway line set up in the Cognitive Realm, with stops being at the perpendicularities under the railways control or granted access to the railway by the local planetary governments. Consider, you board by entering a perpendicularity on Nalthis, wait at the train station, then take the express to Taldain to meet with a business partner. Or take the train to Silverlight where you will be giving a presentation on your research into new metal applications, with guests arriving on the 18:00 from as far away as Sel and Threnody. Perhaps take a train around the local areas in Shadesmar rather than out to other planets, and pay a visit to Lasting Integrity on your way across the Bead Bridge to Urithiru.

I certainly think there will be airplanes in the Cognitive Realm eventually, perhaps to try to see what the Cognitive Realm sun actually is, but until then it seems a practical and grounded solution based on existing technologies.

What do you think? Could this work? And would it be an interesting solution to travel time issues in Shadesmar?

34 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

It's the implications for me - knowing that they'll have the magic and physics down to a point where they're able to accomplish incredible things like that.  The currently available method doesn't have awesome implications that hide keys to understanding the magic systems, even if it does essentially the same thing a helluva lot easier.

Side note, I finally looked up Alice and Bob's origin after seeing them in so many examples like yours and even probably using them myself a time or two XD.  They're from a not so old paper on cryptography! I'd seen Carol and Ted before but never knew about the whole cast that exists.  A neat story lol

Oh, it gets better! Alice and Bob have a rich history. Spoilered for length from this source: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/alice-and-bob

The Story of Alice and Bob

(Short extract from after-dinner speech by John Gordon at The Zurich Seminar
April 1984)

I go to lots of conferences on Coding Theory in which complicated
protocols get discussed. You know the sort of thing:

     "A communicates with someone who claims to be B.
      So to be sure, A tests that B knows a secret number K.
      So A sends to B a random number X.
      B then forms Y by encrypting X under key K and sends Y back to A."

and so on. Because this sort of thing is is quite hard to follow, a few
years ago theorists stopped using the letters A and B to represent the 
main players, and started calling them Alice and Bob. So now we say

     "Alice communicates with someone claiming to be Bob.
      So to be sure, Alice tests that Bob knows a secret number K.
      Alice sends to Bob a random number X. 
      Bob then forms Y by encrypting X under key K and sends Y back to Alice." 

It's supposed to make it easier to understand.

Now there are hundreds and hundreds of papers written about Alice and Bob.

Alice and Bob have been used to illustrate all sorts of protocols and
bits of coding theory in scientific papers. Over the years Alice and Bob
have tried to defraud insurance companies, they've exchanged secret messages
over a tapped line, and the've played poker for high stakes by mail.
Now if we put together all the little details from lots of papers - a snippet
from here, a snippet from there - we get a facinating picture of their lives.

This may be the first time in the history of coding theory that a
definitive biography of Alice and Bob has been given.

Take Bob. Bob is often selling securities to speculators so we can be
pretty sure he's a stockbroker. But from his concern about eavesdropping
he is probably into something subersive on the side too.

Take Alice. From the number of times Alice tries to buy stock from
him we can say she is probably a speculator. And she's also worried
that her husband doesn't get to find out about her financial dealings.

So Bob is a subversive stockbroker and Alice is a two-timing speculator.

But Alice has a number of serious problems.

     She and Bob only get to talk by telephone or by email. 
     And in the country where they live the phone service is very expensive. 

And Alice and Bob are cheapskates.

So the first thing Alice must do is MINIMISE THE COST OF THE PHONE CALL.

The telephone in their country is also pretty lousy. The interference
is so bad that Alice and Bob can hardly hear each other. So the second thing
Alice must do is to PROTECT HER MESSAGES AGAINST ERRORS in transmission.

On top of that Alice and Bob have very powerful enemies.

One of their enemies the is the Tax Authority. Another is the Secret Police.

These enemies have almost unlimited resources. They always listen in
to telephone conversations between Alice and Bob.

This is a pity since Bob and Alice are always plotting tax frauds and
overthrowing the government.

So the third thing ALICE must do is PROTECT HER COMMUNICATIONS 
FROM EAVESDROPPING.

And these enemies are very sneaky. One of their favourite tricks is
to telephone Alice and pretend to be Bob.

So the fourth thing Alice has to do is to BE SURE SHE IS COMMUNICATING
WITH WHOM SHE THINKS SHE IS.

Well, you think, so all Alice has to do is listen very carefully to be
sure she recognises Bob's voice.

But no.

You see Alice has never met Bob. She has no idea what his voice sounds like.

All in all Alice has a whole bunch of problems.

Oh yes, and there is one more thing I forgot so say

- Alice doesn't trust Bob.

Now most people in Alice's position would give up.

Not Alice.She has courage which can only be described as awesome.

Against all odds, over a noisy telephone line, tapped by the tax
authorities and the secret police, Alice will happily attempt, with
someone she doesn't trust, whom she can't hear clearly, and who is
probably someone else, to fiddle her tax return and to organise a
cout d'etat, while at the same time minimising the cost of the phone call.

A coding theorist is someone who doesn't think Alice is crazy.

Makes sense as being at least partially why they did it, and could be the main reason. They certainly realised they were becoming too powerful and their actions could have unintended consequences - fearing that power may serve Odium, and the damage they could do under him, would be a valid reason for both humans and spren to try to end the Orders forever.

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

My apologies. But now that you mention it, I need to state it. There most likely are exactly such storms. A third of the sky as arc means that at the equinoctes on the equator the sun will be blocked for a third of the day. And the hottest part of the day around noon. We are talking about losing about half of the solar energy. There will be storms.

Fair enough, and agreed. Unless they cast a very small shadow they will have a massive impact on the planet's temperature.

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The dihedral angle in an icosahedron is listed as 138.190°. I do not see a way for more than one eclipse per place and day.

If the icosahedron is instead positioned not with one vertex at the pole, but with three spaced evenly around it then the positions change, and the six "middle" vertices will be closer to the equator. Though even if they aren't we do still have the fallback of this being only in one or two zones, and Tress's island is in one of them.

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

At 1/3 of the sky they are very, very close.

Agreed. One of the only options I can see for Brandon is to make them take up less of the sky, though again that would also limit the number of places that can have moonshadows regularly. The moon, which some cultures worship, is only 0.5 degrees - if you stick our hand out to its full extent and looked at your pinkie nail THAT is how big the Earth's moon Luna is - and the Sun - but they both are still deeply significant to us. If the Moons took up 1/4 of the arc, or 1/12 of the arc, that would still be impressive.

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Indeed

Should ... should I be worried?