GudThymes

I wanted to assist conversation by compiling all of the epigraphs for the released sample chapters under one "house" so to speak. Is there a good place somewhere I can do that or should I just create a thread on one of the spoiler boards?

I agree with your interpretation. I think what we are being clued in on is that the Unmade correlate more with the surges than the order, and the surge that is left out is Adhesion. Especially since the Fused only have access to one surge.

A few WoB for you that relate to the convo: So the unmade relate to/are analogs to the knights radiant and heralds (except bondsmiths). They have their own attributes and there are gemstones for every unmade. Seems conclusive to me that the pole stone to unmade theory is correct and it likely requires either a specific person closely connected to the Unmade or a bondsmith connected to the Unmade in order to capture them.

Agreed. But if it is BAM specifically I feel like there's enough wiggle room with the Spiritual Realm for her to break the rules. Also, Re-Sephir had been inside Urithiru for a long time, granted there was no bondsmith at the time and the sibling was "dormant", but there is a precedent for Unmade showing up.

I was looking through WoBs about the Unmade and found this one: Not definitive in any way but I think pushes the voice more towards unmade. And I think this WoB could be relevant to the overall conversation depending on your interpretation

I think the terms for the contest will be broken before day 10 and it just won't happen. Who breaks the terms I don't know.

I assumed the visitor was Nale come to kill a nascent Radiant and that separate was a euphemism for kill.

Interesting. I took this to mean we're going to see a third storm by the end of the book for some reason. Like The Wind grows and enters player 3. Highstorm, Everstorm, and Stormystorm. No idea why I interpreted it like that but for some reason I did.

I've always assumed that the horneater gods and the trio of bondsmith spren are one and the same. Stormfather = water Sibling = mountains Nightwatcher = forest/trees The locations of the three line up neatly in my head. The storm comes from the origin (in the ocean). The sibling is now in urithiru but before urithiru was created I presume she resided in the mountains. The nightwatcher has been shown to reside in the forest.

@alder24 I'll need to reread RoW. I don't fully remember that segment and the excerpts are too removed from context for me personally. I see your interpretation and it would absolutely negate the theory. Will try and report back to continue the convo when I have time to reread. But thank you for pulling that info . I don't think that it is related to the fourth ideal given the epigraph for ch. 3. I am more leaning to the latter theory that TOdium doesn't know to or just isn't suppressing The Wind in the way that Rayse did.

Was this stated somewhere or is it based on how the Sibling spoke about it? If the latter I see it as a ship of Theseus situation and really up to interpretation rather than established "fact". I'm not seeing how this means that the wind couldn't be BAM. Hoid has referred to people/entities as something they used to go by in the past and I feel like calling it BAM now would be giving the reveal too early (if I'm right). Take the Returned as an example for what I'm saying. If you knew someone before they returned you would see some of the same person there even if they don't remember themselves fully, so since Hoid knew/knew of The Wind prior to this theoretical unmaking it wouldn't surprise me if he is still calling it. Additionally, unless I'm mistake the unmade weren't in existence when humans first came to Roshar. Fair enough that it will take time and that the mechanics I presented are wrong. But I didn't think we knew the exact mechanics for unmaking so I don't think this rules anything out. Especially since BAM is trapped in the spiritual realm all sorts of shenanigans can be going on. I'm curious what your thoughts on for why the winds voice would be freed when Odiums vessel changed if the Wind isn't an unmade

I see that as a point that could be argued either way, a sort of ship of Theseus situation. My "reasoning" for the mechanics would be that the change of vessel changes the properties of Raysium, now "Tarvanagianium"? which will have changed the nature of the unmaking itself turning the nine into some new version of them. I also think that the power level correlated to the complexity of the name, with BAM being three parts, fits nicely with the origins of The Wind that Hoid gives. If I am correct then it makes sense that she would be the strongest of the nine. I'm still pondering what the unmaking would have done but I wonder if it was modifying the connection to Roshar itself and connected the unmade to Braize? Then when BAM reconnected with Roshar again it caused some extra shenanigans.

I'm all in that the wind is BAM. Theory is that Rayse corrupted the Wind and turned her into Ba-Ado-Mishram using Raysium in some way. And since the vessel changed the god-metal properties change and likely the corruption of the unmade has changed in form freeing her voice.

Ok. I've revised who I believe the wind is given ch. 3&4. I believe it is:

I'm not following how is it bleak to say that relationships in a story should be for a reason? I've been hearing the reason for why they should be together because people think they have chemistry. But this is a book not real life and authors should have a reason for why they write something. I will clarify again, I will not be mad if they get together. I just feel that their story as I've read it would be a better example if they stay platonic.

Shucks. Still possible but not enough to hold onto any hope for it. As an aside I'm an continually impressed with this fandom for one getting such great questions to Sanderson and two having the ability to find/recall WoBs like literally everytime someone has any thoughts. (I mean that with the utmost respect)

I've always thought that Kal was truthfully a descendant of Tanavast. I interpret the story about Nomom that is in world used to say why the Natanatan people have blue skin to be an interpretation of true events. That a mortal became impregnated by Tanavast and then spawned a lineage of "children of Tanavast". It's just that they weren't the Natanatan people.

So the trope isn't a thing in real life. Straight men and women can be close friends without one of them developing feelings. Many people don't think that though. The reason why the trope is damaging to men is that it reinforces that belief. I want to stay away from the common conversation around it but there truly is a loneliness epidemic among men, and simultaneously there is a problem with men coming into their female friends without it being reciprocated. The value of a platonic relationship is that it staves off feelings of loneliness without having additional complications that romantic relationships do have. Combatting the belief/idea/trope could help people. Having an example of a man and woman (yes Syl is magic not really a woman) that have an incredibly close relationship that isn't romantic would be helpful to combat that belief/trope. I hope that helps explain my line of reasoning. I disagree with you about why we should read books and I'll leave it at that.

@king of nowhere but what benefit does a romance between them bring to the story? I have my reasoning for why I think it is a better relationship staying platonic, you may disagree with me but I'm not just wrong or my thoughts on the subject ridiculous because you say so. So far I've mainly heard people say that they want the romance and ask me why I don't. Which fair. But I'm trying to understand why people want the relationship to turn romantic and I haven't really been reading reasons besides vibes or they see the story going that way. I don't understand motivations for shipping so maybe that's where I should just try to focus my learning. With every other cosmere relationship I can think of the relationship is either driving something in the plot or exploring some concept. Siri and susebron explores power imbalances for example. I just don't understand what Kal and Syl brings to the table to explore other than they vibe together. Maybe something like medical dependency relationships, being reliant on your SO for a higher standard of living? Since Syl requires Kal and the bond in order to stay in the physical realm. But the bond itself feels like that exploration of the concept.

Can you expand on this for my benefit? I sped through RoW and haven't done my reread yet but I don't remember thinking that Radiant was any different (mechanically) than Veil or formless. I like the theory, my main question is wasn't Radiant formed pretty late for Shallan and before she had advanced far in her oaths?

I've already very explicitly stated the value of a platonic relationship that stays platonic in this situation. It would be a good example to counter a common trope in society that is damaging to men. What do you think the books you read in school were about? Just to be entertainment?

I have not said that though. You think I'm saying that and I'm not. I'm saying that it cheapens their relationship as an example of a platonic relationship in media. Not the actual depiction of their relationship. To your point about shallan and pattern, I think having a male character be the human, not the magic, is a better example of what I mean about the trope. It feels less relevant when the human is female and the magic is male. I will ask you for the third time now. What value does making Kal and Syl's relationship romantic bring? As far as I can tell people only like the idea because they think it can fit. I think it is a better story and example to keep it platonic, we can disagree on that but I want to know what value you think it would bring.

Did you bother to read anything I've written? I've already addressed your thoughts on this earlier in this thread. What value would romance bring to the relationship between Kal and Syl that isn't already there? You are correct that we have other examples of spren and human bonds, but Kal and Syl's has received the most screen time and is arguably the most nuanced relationship. As I already mentioned I feel that their story is cheapened if they have a romance because of common societal tropes. Edit: I realized you were the same person already replying to me, so I will expand more because I do not feel like you are understanding me. But first, I would ask that when you reply in the future to not put words in other people's mouths. You can ask questions like "what do you think about?" But don't say "are you saying x", it's rude and poor conversational form. What I am saying about their relationship is that while making it romantic doesn't lessen their story in this example, it weakens their story generally. Their relationship is already phenomenal as it is, and keeping it as a platonic relationship sets a positive example for depicting healthy relationships and close relationships. As I've already stated to you there is a trope that "men and women can't be close friends because they will develop feelings". Thus far I have not heard reasoning for how a romance actually adds anything to their relationship (other than the romance itself) and I find that if there is a romance some of their closeness will be explained away as them having "feelings" rather than being an example of how close two people can be platonically.

Personally I read that as confirmation that all 16 will be named via SA5 not that she'll a actually be involved in the story. It definitely makes me question my point about valor but I do still think it could just be via letters or similar rather than direct action.

You're putting words in my mouth for one. I'm not saying that a romantic relationship isn't complex, but you can't remove this one instance from the context that is our society and media. There is a common trope that "men and women can't be friends" because they inevitably develop "the feels". I think that Sanderson has done a phenomenal job showing how complex and important a platonic relationship can be with Kal and Syl and I find that it loses value if they end up together. All of the emotion and heart and important moments become shadowed by "they liked each other" and that's why they did xyz. And most importantly, what value does the romance add that a platonic relationship between them doesn't? That's my issue with it. Let me know if you still don't understand.