AquaRegia

3 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Sazed does say the star charts preserved by the Keepers are considered inaccurate/useless. Merely moving the planet's orbit from Earth like to Venus like would not change the apparent position/movement of the stars (the other planets, somewhat, but Scadrial's system has no other inner planets from the AU chart & essay - so even that would not be hugely dramatic).

Au contraire, mon frere.  From tHoA, ch. 82:

Quote

There had been a people known as the Nelazan.  They had worshipped the stars, had called them the Thousand Eyes of their god, Trell, watching them.  From the Nelazan, the Keepers had recovered star charts, and had dutifully recorded them - even though scholars had called them useless, since they hadn't been accurate since the days before the Ascension.  Yet, from these star charts, and from the patterns and movements of the other planets in the solar system they outlined, Sazed could determine exactly where the world was supposed to sit in orbit.  He put the planet back into its old place - not pushing too hard, as the Lord Ruler once had, for he had a frame of reference by which to measure.

Interesting that here is yet another reference to Trell.

Thank you @Jofwu for posting that.  Regarding the decoupling of the magnetic pole from the geographic pole and "ferromagnetic volcanic ash" issue, I think I'm just going to have to accept that either Brandon or I (quite possibly both LOL) don't understand geophysics well enough for all the available facts to truly make sense. 

That said, I don't think it violates any established canon to speculate that the entirety of the Final Empire was located in the 65°-75° latitude range, as you initially proposed.  You get very hung up on the Arctic Circle... but that's an EARTH thing.  All that is required is a smaller axial tilt, say 5°, such that no part of the FE lies within the tiny Scadrian version of the Arctic Circle.  There would be mild seasonal variations (confirmed in the text), most of the planet would be too hot for human habitation (also confirmed in the text), and the length of daylight would vary only slightly in most populated regions.  While I am aware that "lack of evidence" is not "evidence of lack", I think the fact that seasonal variations in daylight are never once mentioned in the text is notable.

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I just think certain aspects of the books fall a bit flat due to knowing our heroes are going to prevail.  Which is a fine thing.  But the heroes drawing on the mists or using bands that make them gods at the last minute every book is rough.

Rashek must have been so tired of all of the ungrateful folks in Scadrial hating him.  That dude wanted to die.  In a way thinking that actually makes me more happy with that scene than just Vin getting mists power upgrade to a temporary level 20 for boss fight and then once its over she returns to her level 4 rogue self.  

While I disagree, these are definitely solid points.  The Plot Armor can seem awfully thick sometimes.

I prefer a story where the "good guy" both lives AND wins.  I loved both Era 1 and Era 2, even though some heroes die.  (I did NOT like Game of Thrones.)  But your position does make sense to me; if the heroes can always be counted on to find the "one weird trick" to beat the bad guy, every single time, no matter how powerful or well prepared the bad guy is... where's the actual drama?  It's a tough line for an author to walk, and some readers will be left unsatisfied.

10 hours ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Vin's vision in the Well in WoA... "a magnificent sphere upon which life could exist only in a small little area at the poles."

YES, that would be it.  Thanks so much!  I thought I was hallucinating.

On 12/16/2021 at 3:26 PM, Jofwu said:

To be clear, when Rashek Ascended he moved the Well of Ascension from somewhere at or near the geographic north pole down to somewhere more temperate. Still probably at high latitudes, but presumably low enough to give "normal" day-night cycles throughout the year.

But then the whole planet's magnetic pole was realigned to the new WoA location. So when anything says the Final Empire is at a "pole" it's referring to the magnetic pole. Not the geographic pole.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this can be true.  An excerpt from the Coppermind page on Rashek:

Quote

he changed many aspects of life on Scadrial, in order to save the world from the Deepness. ... He moved the planet closer to its sun in an attempt to burn the mists away. The new orbit was too close to the sun, and he created active volcanoes to produce large amounts of ash and smoke to cool down the world. ... The Terris mountains were flattened, and new mountains were raised in the north in order to hide the location of the Well of Ascension.

The whole point of the Ashmounts was to shade and cool the surface, since the sun was now too intense at the planet's new orbit.  The quote from WoA above seems to support the idea that even with this ash-driven cooling, life is restricted to only very near the GEOGRAPHIC poles, and everywhere else is simply too hot.  The Southern Scadrians, presumably near the south pole but lacking the proximity of the Ashmounts, adapted (or were changed) to prefer much higher temperatures, as we see later in BoM.

Can you share your reasoning and evidence for the "magnetic pole" interpretation?

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Could be from that one conversation in BoM.

If you mean

no, it's not there either, I checked.  But thanks for trying!

2 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

ditching Category 6 and adding Adonalsium.

It was pretty clear to me that Adonalsium is Category 2.

I spent all evening looking for the quote I want in HoA (it's not there) and MB:SH (it's not there either).  I seem to have a fairly clear memory of someone looking down at Scadrial (presumably during the Final Empire era) and being struck by how small (and how close to the North pole) the inhabited part is, and how hostile the rest of the planet seems.  If someone can help me find it, I'd be rusting grateful.  In her foreword to the Scadrian System stories in AU, Khriss notes that "humans used to live on a relatively small portion of the planet," but I feel there was definitely more... maybe it's a WoB I'm thinking of.

After all that, it occurs to me that I might be overlooking the simplest explanation - Scadrial might just have a very small axial tilt.  Thus there would be SOME seasonal variations in weather, it would be much colder near the poles and warmer near the equator, and higher altitudes (like the Terris Dominance) would be cold and snowy, but day/night length would never vary by much, even very close to the poles.

It's fascinating how many people in our culture think that the things we have arbitrarily assigned value to (gold, diamonds, etc,) must have INTRINSIC value.

Gold has extremely low chemical reactivity, and is fairly rare on Earth; I don't see either of those factors mattering to anyone on Roshar.  They might just as well Soulcast fat stacks of $100 bills.  ;-)

On 12/16/2021 at 11:21 AM, honorblades said:

I've been thinking about this a lot and I can't quite figure it out either. Especially if Wax were to arrive during the time skip between SA5 and SA6 he's kind of missed out on all the action, haha

Five more books implies plenty more action in which to be included.  ;-)

On 12/16/2021 at 11:23 AM, honorblades said:

Quoting this separately because it's such a good point, that is exactly what it seems like with Autonomy's avatars! I'm very interested to see how this plays out. There's got to be a twist here that we cannot see yet. 

Harmony may look like he's in favor of individual freedom of choice... but consider whether it's "freedom for everyone" or "freedom for Scadrians".  Somebody (I don't remember who... my wife plays snippets of Cosmere podcasts all the time) had an excellent explanation of how this might be playing out: 

- Autonomy is working for maximum freedom in the entire Cosmere, and wants all worlds to meet on roughly equal footing

- Technological advancement in ONE place will lead to colonialism, which drastically reduces freedom for those whose planets are under colonial rule

- Autonomy has already frozen technical advancement (and outside trade) on Taldain to prevent said interstellar conquest and colonialism

- Harmony has created conditions (especially in Southern Scadrial) which favor rapid technological advancement, and is actively encouraging it

- Autonomy wants to shut that rust down so that Scadrial doesn't become the center of an interstellar empire, squashing everyone else's freedom

Not my idea, but it makes a lot of sense to me.  If anyone else heard that podcast, please credit the right person.  Don't get me wrong, I love Harmony... but I can see his concern for the the people of Scadrial putting him on the wrong side of "maximum freedom and equality for everyone in the Cosmere".

Hahaha I didn't even notice you had ten, in "Order" order!  Well played.

Now that I look, I see Adolin in the Edgedancer spot and "no one" in the Dustbringer spot.  I kind of hope that Malata dies - she gives me the willies.

On 12/13/2021 at 5:31 AM, Milk said:

Brandon has, on numerous occasions, mentioned that flashback characters could be dead in the present time of their book; here and here, for example. (Also, don't forget Renarin! Who are you, Dalinar?)

Touché!

33 minutes ago, Brightness Windrunner said:

Personally I think Adolin won't make it

While I admit this is a possibility, I really hope it does not come to pass, because both the story and Shallan need him.  He's one of the few POV characters who doesn't challenge the reader to empathize with constant self-doubt or serious mental illness; without him I fear the story gets unbearably dark.  And if he dies, I can only see Shallan going completely off the deep end, with absolutely nothing good coming of that.  I don't even think I'd want to keep reading.

I think Venli and/or Kaladin are our most likely future casualties.

I'd also note that two of your poll options - Taln and Jasnah - are already known to be flashback POV characters in SA Arc 2 novels.  Doesn't NECESSARILY rule them out, but...

18 hours ago, Bliev said:

It's interesting in this thread how quickly the victim blaming ensues.

While I understand the point you make here, I can't help but wonder: who really were the "victims" in this scenario?

Jasnah is, in essence, a superhero.  Magical healing, soulcasting, etc., and she knows this.  The bandits do not, and neither does Shallan.  If Captain Marvel walks down a dark alley in a bad part of town and some petty thieves wind up dead, is she a "victim"?  I think that earlier characterizations of this as "hunting" are more apt.

I agree that Jasnah's disregard for Shallan is a problem.  I feel that Jasnah's disregard for the lives of the people she used as objects in her "lesson" is also problematic.

I further stipulate that if Jasnah were a vanilla human (without Radiant abilities), her behavior would be far less culpable.  "Self-defense" in that case is much more defensible.

14 hours ago, Tglassy said:

My question is how Hoid manages to leave Roshar when he's a Knight Radiant.  Doesn't the Bands of Mourning take place after Stormlight?  Can't Radiants not leave the Rosharan system because they're too invested?  Seems fishy. 

If I understand correctly, there is no reason a Radiant cannot leave Roshar... but as far as anyone knows (so far), spren cannot.  Either Hoid is NOT Radiant while he's off Roshar, or he found a way to bring Design with him that we are not yet aware of.

I just want to say how happy it makes me to see this topic.

1)  I was very confused by the late reveal in HoA of how near the pole the Last Empire was.  Should there not, then, have been GREAT differences in length of day between summer and winter?  No mention of that in any of Era 1 that I recall.

2) I also noticed the clear similarity between the Elendel basin Era 2 map and the LE Era 1 map, and wondered just how much Scadrians knew about their planet.

3) I'm glad people both smarter and harder-working than I am are still confused; it reassures me that I'm not a total moron.  Something doesn't add up about the geography of Scadrial.

I (like Kaladin as quoted earlier) am strongly of the opinion that killing should always be the very last resort.  Jasnah clearly had multiple options to incapacitate those men, or otherwise neutralize the threat they posed, without jumping right to murder.

I've been saying similar things to my wife for years now: "Sanderson can't possibly live long enough / stay healthy enough to finish all the books he claims to have planned."  It was unlikely even if he had been able to keep writing at his initial rate... and his rate has declined over the years, which is quite normal for most serious authors. 

I have a very difficult time picturing anyone able to continue the Cosmere Saga in Brandon's absence, at least, not with a Brandon-worthy level of quality; he's simply too good, and our expectations are now impossibly high.  I think future generations will have to live with an unfinished Cosmere arc, perhaps supplemented by "lesser" work from other authors which may or may not represent his vision.

Not me, though.  I'm ten years older than he is, so I expect I'll be off to the Beyond before he stops writing.

I like it.  Makes a ton of sense, and nothing I can think of rules any of it out.

Fits well with my speculation that Jasnah and Hoid are heading towards an ugly breakup, followed by an EPIC "evil ex" dynamic - two powerful, resourceful, and dangerous people who used to love each other but are now bitter enemies.  Nothing would get Jansah fired up more than Hoid betraying her trust and throwing all of Roshar under the bus.

I find myself largely in agreement with @Vin(Diesel)'s well-reasoned post above.  A romantic relationship between a mortal and an immortal would be loaded with both emotional and ethical issues; exploration of this theme is at least as old as Greek mythology (where, if I recall, it NEVER ended well for the mortal) and has been covered in modern speculative fiction many times.  I'm reminded of Heinlein's Time Enough for Love - his best work, IMO - in which Lazarus Long and his near-immortal kin refer to the rest of us as "mayflies" with whom serious relationships are strongly discouraged.  An immortal can be "friends" with a mayfly in the same way we are friends with dogs or cats... but romance is unwise and ultimately unfair to both parties.

My guess is that, while Hoid and Jasnah may indeed both be sincere in their appreciation and affection for each other, their different agendas and worldviews (and possibly the knowledge of their differing lifetimes) will ultimately result in this fling being a short one.  Brandon may just be laying the groundwork for a deliciously acrimonious and adversarial relationship between two powerful people who used to love one another, e.g. Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Why rule out north or south?  It's not a REAL sun... it could be anywhere.  ;-)  Like many other details about Shadesmar, it doesn't really make any sense and, as a result, I find it vaguely annoying.

I don't recall any specific mention of which direction one must face to see the tiny "sun"... but now I'm curious too.  Hopefully someone else finds one, I'm too lazy.

It's the Cosmere - "dead" doesn't have to mean DEAD.  Maybe it's a Cognitive Shadow of a topic!  ;-)

17 hours ago, samsocial said:

 Logically it doesn't make sense to hide this from Adolin when someone close to him already knows the secret.

Logically, this makes sense.  Emotions, however, are not logical.  Humans are not Vulcans; we all - even the best of us - sometimes make poor choices, destructive decisions, and hurtful actions based on emotion.  Sometimes, when someone has made a bad choice, their emotions won't allow them to admit making a mistake, and they double down even more strongly on that choice.  The pain of "being wrong" is perceived as greater than the pain of the consequences of the original bad decision.  Pride and ego can be subtly powerful... and fear even more so.

This would not have made much sense to me when I was 18 or 20... but now that I'm old (I've got about 10 years on Brandon) I can see it more clearly.

It can be amusing or infuriating, depending on my mood.

I've seen so many different awful attempts at "Taravangian" that I can't even bring myself to repeat them.

It's hard to understand for people who DON'T have "shameful" pasts or serious mental health challenges... but it's quite normal to keep secrets from the ones you love most.  The fear of losing their love once the truth is out is an incredibly powerful motivation, even in cases where it's unfounded. 

\WE know Adolin would never reject Shallan, no matter what she did, but deep inside, her emotional core is not capable of accepting this.  She is so ashamed of the things she has done, she can't trust that Adolin won't be repulsed once he finds out. 

I've been in this situation.  Despite the fact that the reality of "coming clean" is never as catastrophic as we fear, the fear is still quite real and can be paralyzing.

Seems to me that the human members of the Set are also playing very much out of their league.  As Uncle Suit found out, the goals of the Set (power over the people Scadrial) are suddenly no longer in alignment with the new goals of the red-eyed "Immortals" (sterilization of Scadrial).  The Set may have been an appendage of the army of Trell, but it's one Trell apparently no longer needs.  Conflating the two is misleading at this point.

As far as the GB and the Set being related, it also seems unlikely to me.  Kelsier's philosophy of radical freedom doesn't jibe with the Set's mission to rule... not to mention the slave breeding program.

Just wanted you to know I'm reading and enjoying your posts here.  Nothing much to add, other than that I'm looking forward to seeing how you connect the RL stuff to Navani's research!

I voted for characters, and I'll happily explain why.  I love ALL the categories you included... but none of them can really work if the characters are not interesting and relatable.  Fights are fun, but only when the characters have believable motivations for fighting.  Laughter heals the soul (thanks, Steris!), but the humor in Brandon's novels is only as good as the characters acting it out for us.  Romance is only emotionally moving if we identify somehow with the characters experiencing it.

At the end of the day, we are all people, and our favorite stories are the ones about people we can understand and empathize with.  IMO, it's character development which sets Brandon's work so far above that of other fantasy writers.