AquaRegia

I literally LOLd at this - thank you! I feel the same way... not impossible and would make some sense, but unlikely.

I also find this fascinating. Inconsistencies like this do seem to require explanations; however, I find myself wondering if it's possible that we are thinking about these details more deeply than even Brandon does. He is a rusting genius... but we have WAY more spare time on our hands than he does.

CONSIDERABLE speculation. I freely admit I'm still not clear on how the "deadeye in Shadesmar vs Blade in Physical" idea is supposed to work. Isn't it one or the other, but not both? In other words, an unbonded Shardblade, hidden somewhere in the Physical Realm, cannot ALSO be a deadeye wandering Shadesmar. Am I confused?

That's funny; I remember it happening pretty much every time Kaladin swears a new Ideal. Syl: "You have to say the words." Kal: "I don't know what they are." Syl: "When the time is right, you will." Kal (literally seconds from death): *says words, levels up, kicks ass* Same with Lift in Edgedancer - she suddenly realizes what to say for her next Ideal when she truly tries to do what is right according to her previous Oaths.

This is absolutely terrific. Thank you so much for doing it - I love having all these specific references collected in one place, but I'm far too lazy to do it myself. The first question I pose: these two passages seem to imply Gavilar found a way into Shadesmar. (How else could he have BROUGHT Voidlight from Braize?) But they don't explicitly say so. How would he have entered and returned from the Cognitive Realm? And if that's NOT how it happened, what other explanations might fit? Knowing what we know about Brandon's writing, everything will eventually make perfect sense... but right now, it's maddening. I'm also confused and frustrated by the "eyes in death" mystery. I agree it's got to mean something, otherwise, why include it?

Curses! Reality once again forces me to revise my opinions. Thanks for pointing that out. There are, however, multiple other ways Gavilar might have been Invested when he died. A Radiant Bond we don't know about yet, Stormlight some other way, Voidlight somehow, Biochromatic Breaths, some other offworld type of Investiture or artifact... all are plausible, and many have been hinted at in the text. Back to the OP, while I agree it's certainly possible Amaram comes back again, I also agree it's unlikely for the reasons enumerated by @Use the Falchion. It's hard to see how he could be a more capable opponent than he already was, paired with Yelig-Nar... and he lost.

How did he have Voidlight? How did he have Anti-Light? How did he travel to and from Shadesmar? How did he know about other worlds and the larger Cosmere? We already know he had formed a Bond with the Stormfather, as he was seeing Honor's visions. Thus he was a Radiant and capable of being Invested with Stormlight. All the other questions are relevant, and I'm very confident they will be answered in SA5. I'm also confident that Gavilar WILL be shown as both a "moral threat" and, if not a victim exactly, certainly someone whose lust for power will be manipulated to serve Odium.

This is a terrific argument - kudos to everyone, especially @Oltux72 for starting it off. I'm just finishing my slow careful reread of RoW, and I'm coming up on the discovery of Anti-Light, so I'll watch for hidden clues about who knew what and when. My first thoughts are mostly in agreement with @mdross81. It seems very unlikely that any Shards would simply not know about something as important as Anti-Investiture; much more likely is that Odium 1) had no way to produce it himself, and/or 2) had no reason to assume humans would be able to produce it, thus it was not really any kind of priority. As @Use the Falchion has pointed out in another topic, once Gavilar began the process of seeing Honor's visions and bonding the Stormfather, he would have become obscured from Odium's view to some extent. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that Gavilar could have acquired his Anti-Light spheres without Odium's knowledge, nor do I see this as compelling evidence refuting the possibility of Gavilar becoming Odium's Champion. Added 7/13/21: Just read RoW ch. 86 (p. 961 US hardcover) - Venli and Eshonai discuss Gavilar's Voidlight sphere: We know Ulim lies easily and frequently to Venli... but this feels like truth to me. Gavilar and the Sons of Honor may have been planning a return of the Desolations, but they were not working WITH Odium in order to do it. I think this supports my working hypothesis that Gavilar got Voidlight (and Anti-Light) without Odium's knowledge somehow. Axindweth, a known Worldhopper, likely Feruchemist, and spy, perhaps? She was in Gavilar's confidence for some reason, and although Ulim heavily implies she's also an agent of Odium, I don't think we know enough to rule her out as a double or triple agent. I have no doubt we're going to get a LOT more of Gavilar's story in KoW... both in his Prologue AND after he agrees to be Odium's Champion.

That's a great point. I have no further arguments... but I can't help feeling there are still some significant mysteries about language in the Cosmere. At some point we may just have to accept "Connection" as the answer and not worry about the details. They are FANTASY novels, right?

Perhaps the OP was envisioning a TRUE vacuum: a universe completely empty of matter. In that case, with no mass to produce spacetime curvature, there truly would be no gravity. Of course, there would also be no inhabitants to experience this lack of gravity.

My wife and I were talking about this the other day and she pointed out something which, to her, apparently, was obvious. Assume that Gavilar was Invested enough when he died that he's now a Cognitive Shadow; this is not really any kind of stretch. Odium now has TREMENDOUS leverage over him. "Yes, you'd like to return to the Physical Realm, wouldn't you? I can help make that happen... if you agree to act as my Champion. You'll have power, like the Heralds and Radiants of old. You'll lead an army the likes of which the Cosmere has never seen. You will create an everlasting Empire that will span the stars. You will be immortal, and every living being on every world will know and fear you. Your first task? Kill your brother. The man who swore to protect you, but who was too drunk to help you on the day the Assassin came. He was a simple, useful tool in his younger days... but now he's gone wrong, betrayed you. He sent your son on a doomed mission to his death. He gave up the Crown of Alethkar and refused my offer of partnership. He is leading the humans in a futile war that will destroy them AND the singers. But together, WE will unite them... once Dalinar is removed." Odium-as-Rayse could convincingly promise to give Gavilar literally everything he's ever wanted - power, legacy, immortality. TOdium's approach may look somewhat different, but the end result might easily be the same.

A crazy thought occurred to me: Kaladin's father Lirin travelled to Kharbranth as a young man, and little has been revealed about the family of his mother Hesina. Is it possible Hesina is either herself Kharbranthian, or the child of one? If so, Kaladin would be included in the "two generations" (iirc) specified in the agreement, and Todium is prevented from harming Kaladin without breaking his oath and exposing himself to Shardic retribution. Just a wild hypothesis... but I won't be surprised if SOMEONE very important turns out to be protected from Todium by the Kharbranth clause.

Slowly rereading RoW and came across this account of Taravangian's take on his agreement with Odium (Interlude-6, pp 572/3): I think two things are made abundantly clear from this passage. 1) Taravangian certainly views his action here - ordering the Veden betrayal against Dalinar - as the fulfillment of his promise to Odium. He knows that since he has now upheld his end of the bargain, the safety of Kharbranth is ensured. 2) He's already planning to throw a monkey wrench into Odium's plans (in the form of a certain heavily Invested Awakened sentient object)... but he sees that as COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the Kharbranth deal which has now been completed. "He needed to keep his agreement," and he did so. The terms of the deal have not been violated by either party and should still be in effect; I don't see any reason why Taravangian's Ascension would change that. Kharbranth is indeed still safe, and I fully expect that this will tie Todium's hands in some important way in Book 5. Maybe someone very important will turn out to have recent Kharbranthian ancestry...? Presumably, he could choose to break his agreement (with himself), but doing so will somehow make him vulnerable to dangers he's otherwise safe from.

A fair question, and Maya's ultimate answer might support your implication that she WON'T want a new bond. However, I think it's also reasonable that the answer may include 1) The expected "benefit" of the Recreance - somehow "saving" Roshar from the dangers of Surgebinding - did not last. The danger is rising again, and new solutions are needed. 2) The cost of breaking the bond - the Deadeye state - was both unexpected and horrible. 3) Her gradually increasing ability to listen, act, and speak is evidence that she already shares some kind of bond with Adolin, beyond that of a "normal" bonded Shardblade. I think it's entirely possible that Adolin's relationship with Maya will eventually pave the way for ALL Deadeyes to be restored.

Agreed. I think a significant number of us, perhaps a majority, feel that it's unlikely Adolin becomes a Radiant. My main reason for thinking so is purely narrative: there are already too many Kholin Radiants, and the story NEEDS at least a few non-Radiant major viewpoint characters. I also agree Maya and Adolin will break new ground (and are already breaking new ground, e.g., less than ten heartbeats) in the sense that the "rules everyone knows" about 1) how Shardblades work, 2) how Radiants work, and 3) what Deadeyes can and cannot do are certainly NOT all there is to know.

I also think those statements by the Stormfather, Syl, and Pattern all refer to the attention of Odium, not Szeth, and agree it makes sense for him to be focused on those events. Rayse does have a reputation for being not so subtle or clever... but if our guesses about Gavilar are even close to being correct, I think we're going to find that he did indeed have an excellent backup option to Dalinar. In fact, I won't be surprised to learn that Dalinar was actually the backup, Gavilar being the once-and-future first choice.

I love this theory, and I commend you on your exhaustive research. I don't have an overwhelming feeling that it's RIGHT, necessarily, but parts of it make a ton of sense: The idea that Amaram had an Honorblade in his hands - but didn't know it - is exactly the kind of delicious irony Brandon loves to lay on us. I completely agree with your assertion that PERCEPTION is critical in bonding and using any Shardblade. We've already discussed the fact that Shallan "knows" that it takes ten heartbeats to summon her Blade, so of course it does... even though we now know her Blade had to be a bonded spren, Pattern or Testament, every single time. I have no doubt we will see more "bending" of the rules, simply because the rules we and the characters know have never REALLY been the true rules. I also have little doubt we'll learn more about Helaran's mysterious and largely unexplained appearance in that battle. Well done!

I wish we could make a bet. One of us will just have to settle for a nice big "I told you so" in 2023. ;-)

This is a good point. However, as a Shard, Odium knows all about the nature of physical death, Investiture, and Cognitive Shadows. It's certainly possible that Gavilar "dying" was part of Odium's plan all along. Ulim is a tool, and an unreliable one - if I was Rayse I certainly wouldn't trust him with all the details of the plan, I'd simply manipulate/coerce him into doing what I want. Not convinced of the logic here: even if we stipulate TOdium knows something Rayse didn't, that doesn't mean EVERYTHING he knows and does will be different. It could be something completely unrelated to the Gavilar plan. We do know that Rayse-Odium was watching Dalinar very closely for most of his life. Odium knew about everything he ever did, and, through Nergaoul, had a hand in shaping many of the events of his life. Is it unreasonable to think his brother, the king, was also under similar surveillance and influence?

What makes you assume Rayse didn't consider it? I'll bet money that Dalinar was his SECOND choice, after his first choice got himself "killed". How do you think Gavilar not only knows about but actually POSSESSES both Voidlight and Anti-stormlight years before anyone else? Odium was definitely grooming him. From what we know about Gavilar, he was obsessed with ruling as much of Roshar as he could, with his legacy, and with immortality. Odium can offer him all of these, and more. "Out of the blue" implies that Gavilar's return hasn't been foreshadowed... as if being the central figure in every single prologue - and the single most important influence on Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Venli, and many other people - is all simply to be ignored. I'll agree Brandon is guilty of bad writing if Gavilar DOESN'T show up in book 5. From what I can tell, nobody has yet asked point blank about Gavilar's status. But every time someone asks about what Gavilar was up to, the answer is along the lines of "you'll learn a lot more soon." A few examples:

1) We did this already: 2) I don't understand how anyone who has read the first 4 books can predict anyone other than Gavilar as Odium's Champion.

There have been several threads about this already, including a poll: My opinion is that if you somehow still think Gavilar isn't the obvious Champion for Odium, you are not paying attention.

My browser recommended an interesting article today which I thought might help in this discussion: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/06/gender-neutral-pronouns-arent-new/619092/?utm_source=pocket-newtab Of particular note: "Likely the oldest gender-neutral pronoun in the English language is the singular they, which was, for centuries, a common way to identify a person whose gender was indefinite. For a time in the 1600s, medical texts even referred to individuals who did not accord with binary gender standards as they/them. The pronoun’s fortunes were reversed only in the 18th century, when the notion that the singular they was grammatically incorrect came into vogue among linguists."

Are you saying that El is an Avatar of Odium, so that Trell is really just Odium? Or are you saying El is some other Shard, yet is somehow subordinate to Odium on Roshar? Either way, El being a Shard doesn't make too much sense given what we already know about both El specifically and Shards in general.

I agree that it's extremely likely the elders of the Shin have fallen under the influence of an Unmade. Also, I agree with @ScadrianTank on this point: Szeth is very clearly speaking about the fact that Taravangian somehow knew Neturo was dead. He's OBSESSING about it, as demonstrated by all the other quotes. Dalinar, who has no knowledge of that conversation, misinterprets Szeth's mutterings to be about Ishar.