AquaRegia

I claim no authority over 1) anyone's ideas of gods or God, 2) what Brando Sando can or should write, or 3) what he really has in mind for "divinity" in his fiction. But I will offer my perspective on this characterization. I feel confident that Brandon does intend to draw an important distinction between "gods" - which include characters, Shards, and even Adonalsium - and "God". Partly from the published text and partly from WoBs, I think it's pretty clear; Adonalsium was not "God", but a "god" - a "person" of some sort who ended up with more power than was safe. I will also point out that The Beyond does unquestionably exist in Brandon's fiction as a place where "souls" go after they leave the Cosmere. We've seen many characters go there, and none have ever returned; I expect none will ever return. And I believe he has flat-out said that both The Beyond and the ultimate nature of a possible "God Beyond" will not be material for any published work. I think he has very carefully, deliberately and concretely created a firewall between the Cosmere and conflict with real-world religion.

I did NOT know. I'd been happily riding the "Radiants killed their spren" train with all the in-world characters. So it was a big reveal for me. I also just joined the 17th Shard this month, though, so I was protected from all the theorymaking that goes on around here.

Given the choices available, I'm just fine with that. A god who knows more than I do, wants what's best for everyone, and literally CAN'T just smash anyone who disagrees with him? That sounds FINE. Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants. That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler. I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

I'm sorry to insert myself in the conversation so late, but I just joined the Shard recently. One thing I have learned about the nature of science in our understanding of the universe (I hold a master's degree in chemistry and have broad interests in many sciences) is this: as much as we love to classify things, the universe is invariably more complex and diverse than the boxes we invent to put things in. And make no mistake - the boxes are of our own invention. Nature has no need for classification schemes or group definitions. It's fascinating that @Ixthos chose to use this comparison as there is a fierce debate among biologists about the "realness" of species. Some examples of what seems to me to be the prevailing opinion: "Species are not real in an evolutionary sense. They are man-made concepts that help us categorize nature's diversity." https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/04/27/the-existence-of-different-species-is-a-scientific-construct-not-an-argument-against-evolution/?sh=5b27fac2b387 https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/accumulating-glitches/do_species_really_exist/ Heck, astronomers can't even settle on a definition for the word "planet".... it's amazing we've figured out as much as we have about something as complex as biological reproduction. But I urge everyone to avoid the easy trap of assuming "what I've learned so far is a correct description of reality". It's NEVER true. Classification, whether it be of organisms, genders, elementary particles, or astronomical objects, is a tool we use to help us understand, but it's not REAL, and it's always an oversimplification.

Sja-Anat would like you all to stop using the word "corrupted". When a willing spren approaches her, she ENLIGHTENS them. The idea that Ulim "defected" from the Radiant side to Odium would explain Nale's remarkably low opinion of him.

Not ashamed to admit how many places my copies of the books are water-damaged from my tears dripping onto the pages. It's a lot of places. It's both amazing and heartbreaking how Brandon creates characters like Teft, builds up our relationship with them, gives us viewpoint chapters, makes their backstories, struggles and triumphs real to us... then kills them. Kind of like real life does. Dammit. *sniff* so many feels

No, I certainly did not think anything you said came across as rude or condescending - I hope my essay also did not seem so. I personally don't feel anything is "sacred", at least, not in the way I understand others to use that word. So I wouldn't find anything to be "profane" or "blasphemous" or any such value judgement. There are things I don't like, but I'm OK with other people liking them. THIS part of your response, however, really did help me understand where you are coming from: You sparked in my mind an analogy between how religion is perceived in the novels and how representation of minority groups is perceived. There have been a fair number of discussions here recently about representation, some quite heated. For a reader who is gay, for example, the ways in which gay characters are shown is both intensely personal and extremely important. Same for characters who are neurodivergent, non-gender-binary, have physical disabilities... the list is impressive. One might argue, as I attempted to, that "well, it's not OUR world, so who cares how those characters are represented?" But, of course, the experiences of those characters AS PEOPLE must resonate with OUR OWN human experience - otherwise, the story just isn't engaging. So, of course, it IS important. I see now that for a religious person like yourself, the way religion is handled is every bit as important, and you can't just "let it slide". Thanks for taking the time and effort to explain. Your final point remains true - Brandon gets to write what he wants, the way he wants. But we can HOPE he does a good job with the things we find important. I think he will.

I find it odd that no one has mentioned Trell here. I almost voted for Autonomy, because I recall speculation that Autonomy = Trell ... but do we KNOW that? In any case, Trell is clearly being set up as A big bad on Scadrial going forward, which makes it at least a possibility for THE big bad.

I’m not a Christian, so I neither share nor completely understand your concerns. Obviously, you are free to take or leave my thoughts on the matter to whatever degree you wish. I do consider myself tolerant of the beliefs of others, and I try to be open-minded. I’m also not an atheist; seems to me that taking the position “I’m sure there is no god” is every bit as presumptuous as saying “I’m sure my god is the one TRUE god.” It makes sense to me than an infinite god, if there is one, will create/allow a variety of paths to spirituality. Brandon has made it clear that one his motivations for writing fantasy is to explore how religion works to shape individuals and cultures. What he has accomplished so far - most clearly on Roshar and Scadrial - has been absolutely amazing. The variety of religious beliefs which is represented is stunning. And the simple fact is that when different cultures, sects, or characters have differing religious beliefs, some will contradict others. What is holy to one will be heresy to another; your orthodoxy may be my blasphemy. I think that’s part of what he is trying to explore in all his work. He is certainly drawing intentional religious parallels between his fictional universe and the one we live in… and that includes intolerance, idolatry, heresy, and the very concept of divinity. The Cosmere is a fictional universe, presumably one in which Jesus and Christianity do not exist. My hope is that readers do not cause themselves trouble by inserting their “real-world” ideas of heresy to this work of imagination. Should we be dismayed by the lack of Jehovah or Allah in the Lord of the Rings? Should we ban Harry Potter for being “antichristian”? I think such reactions demonstrate, in the real world, the very kinds of strife Brandon is warning us about in his novels. The trappings of religion - what words you say or DON'T say, what clothes you wear, how names are spelled, whether a word has a capital letter or not - are all really just trivial details compared to the spiritual and emotional reasons that religions exist. Dalinar’s god, the god of Vorinism, was a combination of the Shard Honor and a man, Tanavast, who is now dead. Yet Dalinar continues to believe in a God Beyond. We’ve already seen multiple (human) characters in the Cosmere become the origin of a new religion. In the same way, every single form of religious practice on Earth today has individual humans at its start, yet each of them also claims “divine” origin. Is it not possible that all our different ways of worship are really connected to “God Beyond”? Different paths, same destination? Let’s not get bent out of shape by someone taking a different path. If your path is working for you, why does it matter if someone else capitalizes a G?

I interpreted those passages the same way @Llarimar did; the box was only "glowing" for Shallan.

I'm happy that others enjoyed it as much as I did, and I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I also loved the character of Raboniel. So nuanced, so believable... the only thing I didn't like is that now she's dead. I've sung Brandon's praises in other threads for how he's writing Shallan, so I won't do it again here. I have no doubt that Todium is going to be the BBEG in the Cosmere for a good long time going forward, and I found both Venli and Leshwi to be very satisfying characters. It was stunning how many AMAZING things happen in the last 100 pages of RoW. A perfect Sanderlanche!

There are WoBs stating explicitly that there were times when singers fought on the human side. Someone better at finding WoBs will have to post it, though.

I've very curious about how all you Ghostbloods are going to feel when if it turns out that "your" team is really just a bunch of selfish murderous conspiracy egomaniacs. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Mistborn Era 1 and was rooting for Kelsier the whole time. But the evidence at this point seems pretty clear that he's not working for anyone's good but his own. What will it take for you to jump off the Thaidakar Train? Wholesale slaughter of innocents? A deal with Odium? I think either or both of those quite possible.

Given that Brandon is himself a Christian, it seems very unlikely to me that he intends anything that would be remotely problematic for Christians.

Agreed - I'm having some serious misgivings about the number of enthusiastic murder spies in this forum right now LOL Apparently I'm the only member of Team Harmony so far. "You make me sad." In my mind, he is clearly the ONLY "team leader" we know (with a reasonable degree of confidence) whose goal is the best interests of sapient life in the Cosmere as a whole.

I generally follow the rule (and recommend to others) that when approaching a new author, read the books in the order in which they were written. Brandon is making that into quite a puzzle, though, isn't he? And it's only going to get worse... who's going to want to stop in the middle of one awesome series to start another series?

Of course there is something else going on! Maybe SEVERAL somethings. Have you forgotten this is BRANDON STORMING SANDERSON we're talking about? LOL There is always another secret. The short answer to your question is "we don't know...yet." As our friend Lunu'anaki puts it, I'm also as confident as I can be that we will learn much more about Shallan's past that will make things more clear... things she may not know, and probably, more things she sort-of-does-know-but-is-still-hiding-from-herself. And THAT'S the truly impressive ability that makes her so irresistable to the Cryptics: lying to OTHER people is the easy part; lying TO YOURSELF about whole big chunks of your own life? It's a well-documented coping mechanism for dealing with childhood trauma, and it's really quite amazing. I think you are dead wrong about this. Again, Brandon Sanderson. He was planning out the end of the entire Cosmere saga before he wrote the first novel. He's got every detail figured out, and I don't think he just decides to add in major details on the fly. This is a good point. Cryptics are DRAWN to lies, but don't exactly understand them the same way we do. It makes sense that the ability to "believe in your own reality", even if it's not what we might call "lying", is attractive to them, and might make young children with rich imaginations especially so.

I think you have answered your own question here. Cryptics are LIESPREN. They treasure lies. And Shallan is THE. BEST. LIAR.

Well, I strongly disagree. The deal was this - Odium: "if you help me, I will save your family." T: "The DIagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That deal said NOTHING about what the parties may or may not do directly to each other. Why would Odium have any fear of old feeble Taravangian? Say we sign a contract that says I'm going to buy a car from you for $1000, and while I'm giving you the check, I steal your watch. That doesn't invalidate our contract. You can call the police because I stole your watch, but you can't claim I broke the contract, because I didn't. Taravangian and The Diagram spent a year doing everything Odium asked. The deal was fulfilled, the Diagram disbanded, and Taravangian was ready to meet his end. Then Rayse got careless and had an unfortunate accident. The deal between the Power and the new Vessel is still in force, in my view. But I won't argue any more.

@Rushu42 after some searching, I found that everything I wanted to try to do has already been done:

https://www.telescope.com/Telescopes/Dobsonian-Telescopes/Dobsonian-Telescopes-with-Free-Shipping/Orion-SkyQuest-XT8-Classic-Dobsonian-Telescope/pc/1/c/12/sc/398/p/102005.uts?refineByCategoryId=398 That's the current version of what I have. I bought mine about 10 years ago. I'd also recommend a good quality eyepiece in the 8-12mm range.

If you spin it THAT way, sure, I sound pathetic LOL. What I meant was that if I expect, say, my son to behave like Adolin, I'm setting myself up for a lifetime of disappointment. Just trying to avoid unrealistic expectations in my own relationships... everybody *I* know is a normal human who has bad days and is sometimes petty or selfish. But heck yeah, I WISH I had a best friend like Adolin. That's a fair point.

@Rushu42 I guess that makes sense. I don't think there is anything new about the moons in RoW that wasn't described in the first 3 books. I'm a little surprised nobody has discussed it here already.

Hey all, I'm also an amateur astronomy fan. Of course my sky was COMPLETELY overcast on the 21st, and days before and after... but it was cold out anyway, and I saw plenty of Jupiter and Saturn all summer! @Rushu42 I own the exact telescope you are saving up for, and I LOVE it. My Orion 8" Dob is easy to set up and take down, light enough to carry around and load in a car, and with a good array of eyepieces gives great views for relatively little cash. The main downside is no motor drive, which means stuff wanders out of view pretty quickly (stupid rotating Earth, never quits), and, of course, no long-exposure photography is possible. But honestly, I bought it LOOK through. No matter how good my pictures might be, there are always better ones online. I can't afford the Hubble Space Telescope.

Hey, astronomy nerds! I'm a chemist and science educator (retired) by profession, but I consider myself a hobby-level astronomer. I would LOVE to have a discussion about the orbits of the moons of Roshar. Should we do it here, or should I start a new topic? If so, in which forum?