Shardlet

Thase are my thoughts on the way it goes, but I have never seen it confirmed and I'd previously seen other people suggest otherwise.

While most of what you say is accurate, it does actually happen (I imagine rather rarely) that a woman falsely accuses a man of raping her. One example I can think of off the top of my head is the case of the Duke lacrosse team incident a few years back. That said, I think Alaxel is incorrect. I strongly suspect that actual incidents would far outnumber false accusations. I would also disagree with him that sexual harassment is equally bad as rape. For all of how horrible sexual harassment is, rape is far far worse. The damage is far more severe and enduring.

Perhaps, but for it to be justified we should only take into account the information that Jasnah specifically has at her disposal. We all can see and feel things that likely lead us to think or conclude that genocide is not the correct choice to make. But, that is not as relevant to whether it is a justified choice as the information that Jasnah has is.

Yes, they were referring to the mist spirit (namely the shadow of Preservation/Leras's mind).

Ah, I see now what you were saying. Well, 1) Taravangian is the one collecting the quotes and by all appearances does not intend to share. So, Jasnah or other Alethi would not have access to such information. And 2) While we do not have anything to tie the Parsh to the death rattles, we also do not have anything to divorce them from them as well.

I think the second one very clearly could refer to an action taken during genocide. I find it to be very foreboding in light of Jasnah's efforts. The one about the blood seems unlikely to me since Parsh blood is a different color than human blood.

I think it is also important to recognize that the Parshendi don't appear to have vast records of previous desolations. They likely are working off of an oral history handed down through their songs and their own persoanl experience. That means that none of the Parshendi have seen a KR unless they live a very very long time. Having seen and used plate and blade, it is not likely that they would particularly associate them with their dark gods even if Neshua Kadal did refer to KR. One of the most distinguishing features of KR armor would likely be that it glowed. In contrast, the shardplate is painted. Seems like it would make for an easy disconnect. I would suspect that the term likely refers to Kaladin's surgebinding or that they applied it to Kaladin due to his surgebinding. As to Eshonai's comment about it not working out, if they were trying to prevent a resurgence of surgebinding, then it clearly didn't work out since there is obviously a resurgence of surgebinding.

I don't see any indication that they belong to any one group of people. Most are ambiguous. Only a few can be directly related to a specific person or even one of a group of people. I don't see any reason to rule out spren. Nahel spren are thinking, self-determining beings as well. With personalities, desires, opinions, joys and sadnesses. Why do you find it so unlikely? Edit: Though, I'm not sure how any of this relates to the topic at hand.

And yet, expulsion and/or extermination is the path she advocates. This really has been an underlying facet of many of the arguments that I have presented. Jasnah seeks to find facts in what may be flawed accounts. She is of an order of scholars which do not take things at face value. Such people tend not to be reactionary and leap to conclusions. She seems to be thoughtful, studious, and cynical. She would not leap to expulsion/genocide of the Parshmen unless she felt she had a solid basis of the necessity. As to Odium, I do not say any indication that Jasnah is aware of Odium or his intent at all. The spren have hard feelings towards humans apparently due to the Recreance. The invocation of the Stormfather also suggests this to me in light of Syl's information that we just got.

That one seems to me to be from the perspective of a spren.

Well, I did say "suggests". I did not say "proves" or "affirms".

That is great, if they have time or the information that could lead to such a plan. Jasnah's plan suggests that they have neither. By all appearances the Voidbringers are a facet of Odium's forces. I think Jasnah is likely aware of this. I doubt her plan is to stop the desolation. Consider though, if you were faced with an army and had an opportunity destroy a substantial portion of that army, would you not take that opportunity because it would not stop the war? Whether, Odium can take over the Parshendi or only the Parshmen is largely irrelevant to the topic. Jasnah's primary concern is the Parshmen who are disseminated everywhere throughout Alethkar and whom could make a devastating and simultaneous attack everywhere and where such an attack would largely be unanswerable or unpreventable without either ejection or extermination of the Parshmen from Alethi life.

I think you've got some great thoughts here, vikorr. I also think that Kaladin and Shen will be very critical to how things play out between the Alethi and the Parshendi. Some food for thought, I suspect that Shen is a Parshendi spy. This could be good or bad. We'll have to wait and see. What if Neshua Kadal is the Parshendi name for their dark gods? This would account for both the fear and respect. Spren began to resume bonding at or soon before the night of Gavilar's assassination. Perhaps Gavilar did something that resulted in the return of Nahel spren. Perhaps this is what the Parshendi sought to prevent in much the same way that darkness appears to.

I was referring to the Parshendi fears of the return of their dark gods. They assassinated the king of arguably the most powerful nation in Roshar to prevent him from taken some action that they perceived would lead to that result. Even with the knowledge that it would almost certainly lead to a devastating war.

Again, Jasnah obviously believes that time is very short. She has had the longest time being bonded to a spren of anyone we know about so far. So, arguably she has a presumably reliable source for additional information. Surgebinding is returning to the world. The spren are beginning to lay down hurt feelings for some funky crap that they perceive is going down. Jasnah's info says that seriously bad times are at hand. As to spheres and spren, gemstones can trap spren. But they need to be cut and selected appropriately for that. I would suspect that coinage spheres are unsuitable to this task. I think that the dark sphere that Gavilar had is not a coinage sphere. As to dealing with the outside force, does she have any idea of how such a force could be dealt with directly in order to prevent the Parsh/Voidbringer change? It doesn't seem to be the case, or she would likely be working that angle as well.

Sending the Parshmen to the Parshendi would be the best option in my personal opinion. Simply sending them out into the wilds of Natanatan would be tantamount to extermination anyway. By all appearances, the Parshmen would have a difficult time surviving. At least by sending them to the Parshendi, they can be cared for. (From the perspective of the Alethi that is. They would, in actuality, likely be given a form so that they could have better access to their individuality and make a more meaningful contribution to Parshendi society). Would you be willing to stake your life and the lives of those you love on that? It may sound like an unfair thing to ask. But, it is essentially what you are asking Jasnah and the Rosharans at large to do. Edit: Again, I am asking questions and making comments that I think need to be answered and thought about for the benefit of this discussion. I think everybody's thoughts have been great so far.

The fears of the Parshendi suggest otherwise. I hope that she has time or finds information to reshape her plans. I think the genocide plan will blow up in their faces if carried out. I would suggest that Brandon's morality and that of his readers would demand it.

I don't doubt that destruction of the Parsh would not result in prevention of the desolation. But, I am reminded of the Doctor Who episode, 'Army of Ghosts' where the Cybermen appeared essentially everywhere across the globe. There was no subsequent conquest or invasion. Their disseminated presence across the globe was an invasion fait accompli. Similarly the Parshmen are present throughout all of Alethkar and likely many other places as well. For the Parsh to instantly turn, as Jasnah believes that they will, the results would be beyond devastating. There are a variety of ways that Parsh could have survived the last desolation without being exterminated. Three of which are 1) the people were told the desolations were over. There are some Parsh that are left. They are captured and enslaved. After all, no more desolations means no more murderous Parsh. They were forced to help rebuild and were never released. Or, 2) after the end of the previous desolation a group of Parsh escaped into the wilderness. Some of these were later enslaved and others remained free. Or 3) Odium held a pocket of Parsh back and hidden such that they, in their usefulness, were preserved for the Everstorm. Odium used his influence to get humans to integrate the Parsh among them as slaves, thus posturing them for a devastating surprise assault. Odium worked to suppress and obscure information about the useful nature of the Parsh to facilitate this plan. Ah, the move from genocide to internment camps...

Such an action would not be conducted as a punishment, but as a defense. But, if the most reliable information you have points to the conclusion that the Parsh will turn en masse on a dime and become hell-bent on your destruction...? Jasnah, as a veristitalian, works diligently to filter fact from folklore. I see no indication that should would take a writing at face value and act in such a way on it. She clearly has more information than we are currently aware of. Jasnah's information indicates that that is precisely what the Parsh will do and her information has caused her to very strongly believe that she has virtually no time to do what needs to be done. Whether the Parsh are unthinking monsters or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the information that indicates that they will become such, apparently soon. If she was to find out the next morning that Odium was the means by which the Parsh would be taken over and that it would be his will that they were carrying out, how would Jasnah seek to stop Odium? Even if she similarly found out that a spren bond was the impetus for the takeover, how would she go about preventing the bond from occuring? According to Jasnah's information, they do not have the potential to become such, they will become such, soon. I also suspect that humans are not native to Roshar (I would include the Shin in this). But, we have WoB that indicates that Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar together.

Well, the Eshonai interlude indicates that the Parshendi and the Parshmen are the same, but that the Parshmen currently do not occupy one of the Parshendi forms. I also agree that Jasnah is missing some important information and has therefore drawn a conclusion that is not completely accurate. But, if Parshmen and Parshendi alike will be taken over by Odium (or any other non-physical entity), and the Parsh have no defense against such a takeover, and if the Alethi (or anyone else) cannot take any action to prevent such a takeover, then is it wrong to seek their extermination? Tune in to this thread for a discussion of this.

Well, the Parshendi and Parshmen are the same race. The only difference is that the Parshmen are not currently occupying one of the Parshendi "forms" (presumably attained via a spren bond). Jasnah's information does not come from bedtime stories. It seems that Jasnah believes very strongly that time is of the absolute essence. Further, the writing on the wall leaves just about a month before something apparently hits the fan. Has the time for further research expired? At some point in time, a decision must be made. Edit: Many of my responses to comments in this thread will be me largely playing devil's advocate. I am not necessarily pulling for slaughter of the Parshendi. (In fact, I think Jasnah is missing some crucial data).

While it is not an Alethi city, Sesemalex Dar is spoken of by the Alethi. Though, it likely could be written with the corresponding 'K' and 'S' characters.

That is why the food aspect is so intriguing. Warfare could readily be left up to the men due to more suitable physical capability. Meanwhile, scholarly pursuits could readily be left to the women so that the men are free to study and practice the arts of war. Similarly with other pursuits being divided largely upon physical and mental lines. But with food, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason why women would be relegated to sweeter foods and men to spicier foods. Did it start with a greater predominance of sweeter foods being preferred by women and spicier foods being preferred by men and then evolve into concepts of masculine and feminine foods followed by cementing this concepts as a result of an already rigidly defined masculine and feminine social structure?

Here is a loaded question. By asking this question, I absolutely am not referring in any way, shape, or form to real life or advocating or defending any real life actions of genocide. The context for this question is purely totally within the world of Roshar (or perhaps any fantasy world where such a situation may present itself). In any case, as I read through this thread, a number of us reacted strongly to the idea of a genocide of the Parshendi Parshmen. So, assuming that the Parshendi are exactly what Jasnah believes them to be, namely a race of people who at a moments notice are suddenly turned into an implacably hostile force that can be unified in thought and action and seeks to destroy everyone, would it be in any way wrong for the Alethi to seek their extermination as a preventative or mitigating measure? Given that framework, I don't think it is wrong. I think the Alethi, and the rest of Roshar, have an absolute right to protect themselves. Now, stepping slightly outside of that framework, but still remaining firmly on Roshar, let's consider the chance that Jasnah is wrong. Then the hand-wringing begins. How certain are they of the information? How much of a confirmation do they need before they act? Edit: Many of my responses to your comments in this thread will be me largely playing devil's advocate. I am not necessarily pulling for slaughter of the Parshendi. (In fact, I think Jasnah is missing some crucial data).

Well, Koloss have an allomantic genetic heritage. So, it is not too surprising to me that some Koloss would have an allomantic ability. While the Kandra have a feruchemic genetic heritage, they were changed at a much more fundamental level. They exist as something not human without any spikes (mistwraiths). In contrast, Koloss and Inquisitors are humans which have been individually altered by the addition of spikes. I think it is unlikely that Kandra could successfully interbreed with humans. I also think it is unlikely that Koloss and Inquisitors could not. In fact, we know that Koloss can since Tarson is described as being Koloss-blooded rather than Koloss. That being the case, I don't see why any crossbred people on Scadrial could not have allomantic or feruchemic abilities since these abilities are passed genetically.