Shardlet

Given that we only have about seven mistborn as our sample (Shan, Vin, Zane, Elend, Kelsier, unnamed mistborn from TFE Shan fight, and unnamed mistborn from early WoA are the ones I think of off the top of my head) and two of those we get no view of their skill level, it is hard to say who embodies average mistborn skills. Kelsier, Shallan, and the unnamed mistborns are presumably the only unenhanced mistborn we have seen. Kelsier is clearly particularly skilled with iron and steel. If I had to take a side I would probably suggest that Shan is somewhere in the ballpark of typical. Zane has shown himself to be at least a match for Vin in countless spars where he frequently bested Vin. Vin, of course, is no slouch and should likely not be considered to have only average skills. Thus, Zane should likewise be considered a dangerously skilled mistborn.

Yeah, but imagine if you added to that transitioning at the wrong place and coming out 100 feet amove the ground or perhaps worse, 100 feet within the ground. This would mean that you would need to have intensely accurate geographical knowledge of the world of interest and its Shadesmar counterpart to even have a hope of reaching your destination safely. I suspect that, since this is a cognitive transition, if you intend to end up on the surface you do, if you intend to come out within an underground room (such as a vault beneath Kredik Shaw) you do (assuming you are in the right corresponding location).

I think what Moogle and Cheese's position is, is that although Nan Helaran fought with his father some, he was on board with the plan and was himself a Ghostblood. According to the Alternative, neither Helaran or his father are necessarily Ghostbloods (likely not) and Helaran rejected his father's plans or at least key aspects of it and was ended as a result. As for why Nan Balat was not brought on board in the last year, it is clear that he is somewhat unstable. Also, his father (and the Ghostblood conspirators) would be more careful before bringing in the new heir after Helaran's rejection and elimination.

If it is not surface level to surface level, using Shadesmar to travel would be extraordinarily hazardous.

Sell. Too happy and friendly (and easy?) Kelsier will not appear, but will play a role in the second Mistborn trilogy.

That is exactly what I mean by sympathizer. House Davar would not only be indebted to the Ghostbloods for his newly exalted position, but would be held potentially under threat of revelation of the illicit soulcasting That House Davar is was not particularly important, sure. but I don't think we would be justified in saying that they were one of the most unimportant. It seems unlikely that a nearly absolutely inconsequential house would be able to make a reasonable bid for a Highprincedom. It is possible that Luesh did not become steward until after dealings with the Ghostbloods began, but this is not the impression that I got from the info we have so far. I don't think we have any evidence one way or the other for House Davar's financial situation prior to Ghostblood involvement. We have no idea, that I am aware of, when the origin of the debts was. Helaran was Nan Helaran. It is no coincidence that Balat is now Nan Balat. The term "Nan" is a title signifying that the bearer is the heir. Nan Helaran was the heir and would therefore need to be appraised of the plans. Someone told them about the soulcaster and the plans for the use of it. I thought it was pretty clear that this would have been Luesh since he, as you pointed out, was the one who knew how to use it. The idea neither states nor implies that Luesh came up with the plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster. Only that Luesh was complicit in that plan. He clearly is aware of the plan and supports it to some degree since it was well over a month (I'm pretty sure a few at least) before the enforcers came calling. If he was not complicit, the enforcers would not have asked for the soulcaster because they would have known it was broken and they would've likely taken action to destroy or discredit the house. Though Luesh is not explicitly described as having loyalties to House Davar, his complicitness in their plan suggests that he very plausibly could have. He is known to the family well enough that the Davar scions have determined that they could trust him. This could reasonably suggest long service and/or close familiarity. As to their emotional reaction to his death, he was after all a servant of the house. I did not suggest that he was like a second father to them. He may be well-liked by the Davars without the Davars breaking out into tears at the news of his death. Besides, what is more important to the scenario is how Luesh feels, not how the Davar's feel. Whether there is duplicity or not on Luesh's part depends on how much he told the Ghostbloods about the situation. He could be covering for the Davar's while they make their play to get a new soulcaster or he could have told them everything and the Ghostbloods are applying the right amount of pressure to make sure they don't slack off on the plan. They could very well be making a play for the new soulcaster as you described. That is a satisfactory alternative. But, I don't think this is a flaw in the alternative I presented either. Fact is, we don't have any evidence one way or the other. Either way, it is conjecture (which of course is the entire point of this alternative scenario). As to Luesh's death under this new alternative, as I said in the other thread, sometimes important people die suddenly and at an inconvenient time (which of course would be the case under the prevailing theory since that theory does not even attempt to provide a reason for Luesh's death). To further elucidate on Helaran's position as heir. Most cultures, the firstborn male is the heir. Veden culture seems to closely approximate Alethi social and government orders and custioms. Under this rationale, Helaran had to be the heir since he was the oldest. To appoint a younger son in his stead would likely be socially unacceptable and would likely frustrate any ascension plans. They likely had to at least try and bring him in on the plans, Ghostblood or not. Once again, I do not discount or even disagree with the prevailing theory. I think I voted with the 1/3 (I might even have originally voted with the 2/3, I don't recall). I am merely seeking to point out that there are plausible alternatives and therefore the theory should not be considered to be confirmed. This whole thread is merely a plausible yarn which Moogle has admitted to be at least mostly the case. I have no desire to convince people that this is a better theory. I don't even present this idea as a theory. I just think it is a plausible and fun alternative scenario.

Nice. I went to University of Idaho. Sorry for the delay in responding.

Hi, Diokhan. Welcome to 17S. Mistborn: TFE was my first Sanderson book also. Glad to have you with us and I hope to hear more from you.

They're penetrating the bureaucracy!!

Ok, so this idea started out as a discussion with Moogle about calling the theory that Shallan's brother, Nan Helaran, was the shardbearer which Kaladin killed in the Amaram battle. Moogle is very convinced that this theory is accurate. Of course that is fine. My intent is not to disprove that theory, but rather to construct an alternative scenario which fits the evidence we have thus far. This all started out as just tossing an idea out there and it gradually became a compelling chain of plausible events in its own right. So, to start, I will present the evidence Moogle presented to establish the shardbearer theory (bear with me, this will be a long post): Shallan's father was a member of the Ghostbloods. Even her father's advisor - the steward who was also a member of the Ghostbloods -- didn't know more than Helaran. That implies he was in heavy with his father, which probably means he was in the Ghostbloods. Quote -Kaladin scene with the Shardbearer attacking Amaram, which happened one year ago, the time when Shallan's brother was missing for a short while then declared dead. Quote Shallan is Veden. Ergo, her brother would be Veden. The Shardbearer who attacked Amaram was Veden and unknown. Shallan's family is rural, and thus their appearances would not be readily recognized. Again, it's not certain, but you basically have to propose Brandon is attempting to trick us with red herrings here. If that doesn't convince you, I don't think anything will short of a direct book confirmation. So, this evidence truly does fit the prevailing theory quite nicely (hence it being the prevailing theory). So, in the words of Clue, "That's how it could have happened". But, what about this: Luesh, a member of a secret organization known as the Ghostbloods was employed as steward to the head of House Davar, a Veden noble house. The Ghostbloods, who have a specific and active agenda, are seeking to increase their power and political influence. As a means of achieving this goal, the Ghostbloods seek to put a sympathizer in place as a high prince of Vedenar. Luesh informs the Ghostbloods that House Davar is has traveled far down the road to dire financial straits and therefore provides the Ghostbloods with an opening. The Ghostbloods come to an agreement with house Davar to provide him with financial backing with the goal of House Davar claiming a vulnerable Veden highprincedom in return for certain political influence and favors. The Ghostbloods cannot simply provide House Davar with direct financial backing, this would draw too much attention as well as raise uncomfortable questions regarding the source of this sudden wealth. It is decided that the Ghostbloods will provide House Davar with a soulcasting fabrial to produce valuable mineral deposits on Davar lands that House Davar will then be able to exploit an monetize on the open market. That way, there is an obvious, verifiable, and 'legitimate' source for the new Davar wealth. However, the Ghostbloods get something else in the bargain as well. The use of soulcasters in this fashion is forbidden and thus the Ghostbloods have additional leverage over House Davar. Time passes and the head of House Davar brings his son and heir Nan Helaran in on his plans. However, either immediately or over time Nan Helaran rejects these plans and becomes a liability to the Ghostbloods. He must be silenced. He suddenly and inexplicably 'disappears' and is never heard from again. About a year later, the head of house Davar is dead. The new heir, Nan Balat, is brought up to speed by the steward Luesh on what his father was up to. Nan Balat shares this info with his siblings and the family craps a collective brick when it is discovered that the extraordinarily valuable soulcaster is no longer working. Attempts are made to repair it to no avail. A desperate and dangerous plan to save the family is decided upon with Luesh, the Ghostblood family steward, having divided loyalties between the Ghostbloods and the Davar children, complicit in this plan. During the course of this plan, the Ghostbloods, knowing that the Davar patriarch is dead, send enforcer agents to Nan Balat to demand that the soulcaster is returned to the organization. After all, such a threat is more effective if made by someone unknown and more threatening than good old Luesh whom the children have known for so many years. Later, the Ghostbloods learn of Luesh's duplicity and take actions to address his betrayal which result in Luesh's death. So, that is the scenario. In conjunction with this scenario neither Helaran nor his father need be actual members of the Ghostbloods. Conservation of characters and the fact that the shardbearer Kaladin killed was Veden are the best evidences for the prevailing theory over another alternative. But inter-tangling the character's side stories too much begins to make things hokey in my view. It gets to the point where it is discovered that Han Solo is actually the son of Amidala's secret lover who secretly hoped that his son would one day marry Amidala's unborn daughter. Besides, this is a 10 volume epic. There is a lot of room for additional significant characters (including a Veden shardbearer who is a Ghostblood). It has been posited that if the shardbearer was not Helaran, than why would the Ghostbloods risk sending a Veden shardbearer into an Alethi border conflict. To this I have two responses: 1) Sending a mounted shardbearer into an Alethi border conflict (which will be fought largely by second tier soldiers and no other shardbearers) would not likely be considered a particularly big risk. Add to that, the way Kaladin killed him was extraordinary and would never have been considered a significant possibility. Especially since the shardbearer did not enter the fray until Amaram's forces were routed. 2) This is kind of a straw man argument, the fact is whether or not the shardbearer was Helaran, the shardbearer was in fact Veden. Helaran or not, the Ghostbloods sent a Veden shardbearer. Again, my purpose is not to contest that the shardbearer was Shallan's brother, but rather to propose a reasonable alternative relying upon the same evidence. I actually have no opinion on this theory at all except that I don't think the evidence is particular strong (compelling, yes) to support any idea currently set forth to the extent that alternative theories are particularly unlikely.

There is much more to the Jasnah reading in addition to part he gave us at SpoCon. There is a great deal of info on the two men we wondered about who were speaking to Elhokar when Szeth walked through the room and it appears that they are involved in something nefarious. Also, Jasnah's shadow is behaving curiously. Score! Thx for the recording Lazar.

Gloom's understanding is quite similar to my own. Essentially, the map of Shadesmar in TWoK depicts only to the portion of Shadesmar which corresponds to Roshar. The expanses in the corners represent the locations of other portions of Shadesmar which are not explicitly depicted on the map. Each of these other portions correspond to another cosmere world specifically. So, basically, there are four other cosmere worlds which border Roshar in Shadesmar in much the same way that Nevada is bordered by five other states. Of course there are other cosmere worlds than just these five (including Roshar, of course), but just as you cannot drive from Nevada to Washington without first passing through at least Oregon or Idaho, you must pass through perhaps one or more other portions of Shadesmar to worldhop to say Nalthis from Roshar (this is of course just an example, Nalthis may in fact be one of the four border worlds to Roshar in Shadesmar).

I don't like calling them void spren in the context of this idea (again, not a theory). I prefer to think of them as spren that cause or enable voidbinding abilities. if you think about it, would you call Syl a surge spren? No. The idea is that cryptics are divided into different classification according to (or corresponding to) the particular symbol which is in the place where their head ought to be. Each classification is associated with a specific order or type of voidbinding ability. I worry about using terminology which has been used to establish other ideas which may confuse the basic idea I have presented. In this case, 'void spren' has been used to describe other ideas and I want to avoid 'crossing the streams', as it were.

Well, you won't be able to get a copy of any Sanderson books with dragons in them (yet). The only one that does is Brandon's thesis book Dragonsteel which is only available from the BYU library and it is not easy to get it.

What? . He read more of the Dalinar purelake scene? Did anyone get a recording? If it is a new Dalinar scene, did anyone get a recording?

If you email Brandon and ask for it, he might give it to you.

I am inclined to think that he has been on Scadrial more than once. The similarites between the Worldbringers and the Worldsingers are compelling and in a Q&A (lost somewhere apparently, I could not find it either here or on theoryland) Brandon indicated that the similarities in the name are not a coincidence. AQlso, they function in a similar way to Hoid's backstory. So, it is reasonably plausible that he founded both organizations. This would require multiple trips to Scadrial.

Hi Darkruin. Glad to see you shedding your cloak of lurkiness . Welcome and I look forward to hearing from you.

Ah, but he had to get to the lerasium in the first place. He had a window of about two years between the death of TLR and the ripening of the well to get it. Not very big in the grand scheme of things. Also, he was on Sel at a crucial time as well. Seems like he already had his find-the-important-place-and-time ability.

Incidentally, WoB confirmed that the element is in fact the bead of lerasium. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3626-rithmatist-provo-library-signing/?p=57660'>Source

Wayne can't compound though. He does not have allomantic gold.

IDK, the soulcaster was secret, known only to Shallan's father, Luesh, the Ghostbloods, and Nan Helaran, all of whom are Ghostbloods according to the theory you espouse. In view of that, the simplest answer is that the people who came for the soulcaster were Ghostbloods. It also means something more when someone you don't know comes to collect an illicitly and secretly possessed item rather than your servant good old Luesh. Luesh is likely a spy, not an enforcer. As to not just throwing money at Davar, giving the soulcaster and using it to produce quarries gives a reasonably plausible source for the sudden Davar wealth. Otherwise, the new money would stink like a week-old dead fish. On top of which, using a soulcaster in that manner is at the very least socially unacceptable if not illegal. This would give the Ghostbloods additional leverage over Davar. You are of course perfectly welcome to disagree with any and all of this. Truly, the prevailing theory is that Kaladin killed Shallan's brother. Again, my point is simply that there are other perfectly plausible scenarios which may be founded upon the same evidence. The strange thing is, that as I have discussed this with you, I have more and more convinced myself that this line of conjecture is a plausible theory that should be discussed in its own right. I still don't espouse one way or the other, but this line of reasoning is compelling to me. I think I will post a thread on this idea later today. Perhaps it is best that we hold further discussion in abeyance until we can resume it there.

Do we have anything other than conjecture to support that the shardblade came from the Ghostbloods? I don't deny that Shallan's father was involved with the Ghostbloods in some fashion. It is quite clear that the soulcaster came from the Ghostbloods. As to why they did it, consider this scenario: Luesh, the Davar steward, is a member of the Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods are eager to increase their political influence and power. Luesh informs them that house Davar is heading down a road to financial collapse, but with backing is positioned to rise. In some fashion, it is agreed upon to provide use of the soulcaster in order to provide financial backing for the house. The Ghostbloods will also work to establish house Davar as a highprincedom. In return, the Ghostbloods will receive significant favors and attentions from house Davar thereby giving increased influence to the Ghostbloods. As to Luesh's death, sometimes people die. Sometimes it is decidedly inconvenient. However, it could have been the Ghostbloods who carried it out. It seems clear that after Shallan's father's death, the Ghostbloods came to collect what was theirs. Luesh, however, appears to be aiding the Davar family in deceiving and delaying the Ghostbloods in order to help the house. He may have been motivated by sympathies for the family engendered by many years of service. If the Ghostbloods found out about the deception, they may well have considered it to be an act of betrayal and took steps to address that betrayal. As to evidence, this is all conjecture to establish a reasonably plausible alternative set of circumstances within the same evidenciary framework you have provided for the theory you espouse. And to be fair, you are using a fair amount of conjecture to fill in the blanks as well. Indeed, conservation of characters is one of the best evidences for the theory over another alternative, but intertangling the character's side stories too much begins to make things hokey in my view. Besides, this is a 10 volume epic. There is a lot of room for additional significant characters (including a Veden shardbearer who is a Ghostblood). Also, sending a mounted shardbearer into an Alethi border conflict (which will be fought largely by second tier soldiers and no other shardbearers) would not likely be considered a particularly big risk. The way Kaladin killed him was extraordinary and would never have been considered a significant possibility. Especially since the shardbearer did not enter the fray until Amaram's forces were routed. Again, my purpose is not to contest that the shardbearer was Shallan's brother, but rather to propose a reasonable alternative relying upon the same evidence. I actually have no opinion on this theory at all except that I don't think the evidence is particular strong (compelling, yes) to support any idea currently set forth.

Hmm. That quote suggests you can't choose allomantic effect or compounded feruchemical effect. It sounds like when you burn a charged metalmind (that you have charged) you only can get the compounding effect. I don't have a problem with that. If that understanding is correct, then it would give extra light on the Vin POV.

Welcome, DRWest. Glad to have you with us.