BlackYeti

This should help. 

7 hours ago, Disorganizer said:

Vorinism splits skills and occupation into male and female, we call those male and female arts. While fighting and politics are supposed to be male, all writing (except for a small selection of glyphs, which could be argued are more labels and heraldry than real writing) is female. While minor rules like male/female food are being ignored (Shallan ignores it at least once with little hesitation), the bit about writing being female, seems to be observed through all echelons of Alethi society, right up to Dalinar, arguably the most powerful vorin person alive. I cant remember a Veden example either. Kabsal is an ardent, so he doesnt count either, especially since ardents are specifically barred from holding positions of power.

I think you're overemphasizing just how rigidly the rule against men being literate in Alethkar is enforced. Dalinar is perhaps a bad example here: given how obsessed with honour he is, it's likely he'd be far more concerned with following the rule than other men would perhaps be.

Consider the male bookstore owner that Shallan meets in the Way of Kings. If I remember correctly, she notes that whilst he acts like he is illiterate, in reality that would be a pretense for the sake of appearances. He would have to be literate, because it would be completely impractical for a man in his position to be otherwise.

The Alethi seem to be, for the most part, extremely concerned with their image, yet equally unconcerned with anything deeper than that.

3 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

It's just too much happenstance and/or odd planning on Brandon's/Helaran's part to me to have a random unknown Veden with Helaran's blade be at the battle. It was already a huge coincidence that Kaladin was present and killed the shardbearer of the blade that Helaran displayed to his father. 

Maybe, but I will feel cheated if he didn't actually die. The others I am fine with and see the need for, but Helaran should be dead to provide real conflict between Kaladin and Shallan, not a fake one that will be remedied when Helaran shows up from offstage. It cheapens the narrative between Kaladin and Shallan that is sure to come if he's not dead. 

Is it possible? Sure. We've seen Nale use his fabrial to heal Szeth, so why not make Helaran disappear by showing off his shardblade to his ghostblood father and then have the bearer of that blade "die in combat".

I don't think the bearer of that blade was TRYING to die at Kaladin's hand... they were just over confident as are all newly endowed shardbearers. There is no way they could have known that Kaladin would win that battle... by all rights he should not have won. So, that would have been an odd way to try and fake a death, to be the only shardbearer on a field of battle and expect to be killed? That's seems a stretch to me...

I don't think they were trying to fake Helaran's death. The idea is that Helaran gave away his Shards because he joined the Skybreakers and thus couldn't use them without hearing the screaming. The fact that the person he gave them to got killed by Kaladin is just a coincidence. It actually makes sense that he would give them to a Veden since he is himself Veden, he'd probably give them to a friend after all. I wouldn't say that it's much more unlikely than if it were Helaran that Kaladin killed.

As for the point on cheapening the narrative, that is certainly a real danger here. However I don't think that it necessarily would do so, if the plot line between Shallan and Kaladin is resolved before Helaran returns, for instance, it would then mitigate it to some extent. Also, just because he isn't killed by Kaladin, doesn't necessarily mean that he won't get killed off by some other means.

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Who are the other two? Jasnah I know. 

Szeth

30 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

If Helaran was a surgebinder, a true Skybreaker, then he should have been able to heal with Stormlight from a stab to the eye, right? 

But surely the whole point that @jofwu was making was that it wasn't Helaran who got stabbed in the eye, therefore Helaran is still alive. Hence this isn't an issue with the theory.

3 hours ago, MadhavDeval said:

How come no one on this thread has mentioned old magic? How does that fit into the thirty systems? Everything else seems to fit but theres no place for old magic and its really annoying me. 

From what little we know of the old magic, it doesn't seem to be the sort of magic that people perform, but rather what the Nightwatcher does to people.

I think Brandon even said at one point that he wasn't referring to the old magic when he spoke about the 30 magic systems. (I'll see if I can find the quote when I get to my computer.)

Edit: Found it:

Quote

QUESTION

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

8 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

You're making several assumptions here. First, entire shards are not needed to form a perpendicularity in the first place. Brandon has said that anywhere with sufficient investiture (like first of the sun) can still have perpendicularities. Seeing as how there were already Spren on Roshar (which are sentient pieces of investiture) it isn't an unreasonable guess that there may have been enough to form a stable perpendicularity.

 

Second, that all of Adonalsium's investiture is contained in the shards. We don't know if this is the case or not so it really doesn't stand against my theory.

 

Third, that the shattering (which is what Odium has done to shards, just on a large scale) divested Adonalsium from Roshar. When Aons and Skai were shattered the investiture still formed a perpendicularity on the planet they were invested in, so I don't see why this would be any different.

Yes, I didn't say that it was necessarily impossible, and I was trying to be clear where I was making assumptions. You could be correct here, but for the time being I think it would be very strange.

But to clarify one of my points: I didn't say that all of Adonalsium's investiture is contained in the Shards, it obviously isn't since we know there exist Adonalsium spren. I said that most of it is.

9 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I can see that, somewhat. There were spren and Investiture there before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, so of all the worlds that might have a Perpendicularity left over from Adonalsium, Roshar would be the place.

I have a few problems with the idea.

Firstly, Adonalsium wasn't a Shard: whilst many of the same rules doubtless apply, we do not know if he formed a Perpendicularity (or Perpendicularities) in the first place.

Secondly, Adonalsiumm was Shattered, and the Shards which between them form most of his essence then started forming their own Perpendicularities. It seems weird that there would be Perpendicularities to both Adonalsium and the Shards.

Thirdly there's this recent WoB:

Quote

Q: If a Shard were to divest itself from a planet, would the perpendicularity there disappear?

A: Normally the shardpool would cease to exist, but there are circumstances that could prevent the shardpool from disappearing

It seems unlikely therefore that Adonalsium has Perpendicularities lying around all over the place. If he has one I'd expect it to be on Yolen, and I'm far from convinced that he has even that.

3 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

A nexus is a series of comnections linking two or more things, so it makes sense for them to be perpendicularities.

 

My theory is that the nexus Imagination is Adonalsium's perpendicularity.

Hmm. If you assume that Odium and Adonalsium both have Perpendicularities on Roshar, then this could work, but it does beg the question of why Cultivation's Perpendicularity isn't labeled a Nexus.

Also I find the idea that Adonalsium has a Perpendicularity on Roshar to be even stranger than the idea that Odium has one. Why do you think he has one?

34 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

The idea of nexus=perpendicularity probably won't work. That would mean that Roshar has 3 (why 3?) perpendicularities. 
 

Could the third have anything to do with the shard that was on Ashyn? Or, Braize? 

This is too convoluted.. probably. 

It certainly doesn't work: if it did then they would be in Roshar's Ocean which we do know can't be the case.

As for why there could be three Perpendicularities though: Odium is in the same system and has Invested himself to some degree in Roshar (else there couldn't be Unmade or voidspren), it is conceivable that this level of Investment and proximity is enough to form a Perpendicularity there. As I stated earlier I doubt that this is the case, but it wouldn't shock me if it were to turn out that it is.

This conversation has sparked an idea in me though. Why are there three seas marked on the Shadesmar map? It looks like there is just one big ocean, but whoever made it saw fit to divide it into three. Moreover the labels correspond precisely to three of Roshar's Mountain ranges. One on the Horneater Peaks where Cultivation's Perpendicularity is. One on the unnamed mountain range where Urithiru is, and where I suspect Honour's Perpendicularity to be. And one on the Misted Mountains. If it does then turn out that Odium has a Perpendicularity on Roshar, I'm guessing that's where it would be. The Seas would then be "Seas of Investiture", and then that would just leave the Nexuses as unknowns on the map.

12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I doubt it - we know where two Perpendicularities are on Roshar (Purelake, Horneater Peaks), and there are no Nexuses near either of those.

Do you have a source for the Purelake being a Pependicularity? I know it's a commonly held theory but I haven't heard that it had been confirmed.

I've always been skeptical of it to be honest. Perpendicularities typically form in areas of high altitude (i.e. mountain ranges) which the Purelake obviously isn't. Cultivation's  Perpendicularity is in the Horneater Peaks, and as per my theory here, I think that Honour's Perpendicularity is at Urithiru, and I suspect that Odium's Perpendicularity is probably on Braize rather than Roshar.

Edit: You know, I think this is my first time being ninja'd @Argent

1 minute ago, Khyrindor said:

Am I the only one who doesn't see Vibrancy on that map? I'm very confused right now. I see Densities, Truth, Transition, and Broken Sky in the north. The seas in Roshar Proper. Then the Expanses of Imagination and Vapors.

It's hidden behind the Shadesmar label: we know what it's called due to WoB. Also note that it's the Nexus of Imagination, not Expanse.

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

"Ten Levels of Voidbinding" is how I recall they were referred to in the Ars Arcanum. I don't think it's inconsistent, since magic systems arise from an interaction between a planet and a Shard. If Voidbinding is an Odium/Roshar magic system, then 10 would still fit. (I doubt there would be a magic system on Braize if it there is no one there but spren and Cognitive Shadows.) Also, when Way of Kings was first coming out, he described it as having either 30 magic systems or 3, depending on how you counted them. 10 Surges or Surgebinding were the ones we knew about then. Fabrial science is the second big one, with 10 different kinds of fabrials suspected. Voidbinding and its 10 levels would fill the remaining third of Roshar's magic.

Good points, I'll concede these.

I should have thought of them myself to be honest: that'll teach me to jump straight in with an idea rather than thinking about them for a while. I just rather liked the idea of a different number for Voidbinding which has nothing to do with the fact that it would have ruled out the main contender for my theory .

2 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

Only problem with this is that, if the chart in WoK is indeed for Voidbinding, then there are 10 orders or types. But we don't really know what that chart is, do we?

Indeed we do not know what the chart is. But I'm sticking with my theory that it's a Cognitive Surgebinding chart for now.

So I just found this new WoB here:

Quote

3. c. Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?
A. Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharian planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric

Given that we have that old WoB that there aren't 10 Unmade, and given that we think that Odium has been forced to camp out on Braize, I'm proposing that there are in fact going to be 9 Nazgûl Unmade.

Now if we look at Voidbinding, the name suggests that the magic is a mix of both Odium and Honour, which suggest that much like Surgebinding there could be multiple Orders. It would make similar sense therefore for there to be 9 Orders of Voidbinding, each of which could then be linked to one of the Unmade similarly to how the Orders of Radiants link to one of the Heralds.

14 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Hm. Interesting. Could I ask you to show me your math on that? Physics fascinates me  

Sure, here you go:

Just to briefly explain what I'm doing here. In step 1 I'm finding the mass of the planets using the formula for g (acceleration due to gravity). G is the gravitational constant (  6.67408 × 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2 which can be eliminated here since I'm finding a ratio, and thus it does not affect the result), r is the radius, and M the mass. In step 2 I get the volume of the planets. In step 3 I'm finding ρ (the density) using the values from steps 1 & 2. Then finally in step 4 I calculate the ratio and find that Sel's density is 0.8 cosmere standard.

5 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Sel also makes sense, given this quote from its essay:

  Reveal hidden contents

The planet itself fasciliates this, as it is larger than most, with its size around 1.5 cosmere standard, and gravity at 1.2 cosmere standard.

Now I'm no expert on physics, but I'm pretty sure this is the highest gravity on a planet we've seen so far, and I'm relatively certain that the greater gravity is on a planet, the more dense its natural materials are. On top of what Blightsong just brought up (about Sel's investiture being condensed in the Cognitive Realm), it makes quite a lot of sense.

Actually the gravity is determined by the distance from the planet and its mass,  the latter of which is itself determined by size and density. Given the much higher size of the planet, the slightly higher gravity means that the density of the planet is actually lower than the cosmere standard. I've done some quick calculations to verify this: Sel does not have a high density.

17 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I just had a thought. (No, please, hold your applause.) I'm not knowledgeable on astronomy, but star systems are moving through the galaxy, and can encounter interstellar... things. What if the Threnodite system is still encountering pieces of Ambition (like a giant meteor shower), and every once in a while one of them is big enough to cause a perpendicularity to form? That could explain why they're unpredictable, because you never know when the system will encounter a large enough piece of Investiture. And the morbidity comes from it being pieces of a dead Shard splattering into the system like bugs on a windshield.

Any astronomy buffs care to comment if this would make sense on a large-scale astronomical sense?

Well from what I understand, the biggest problem with this is simply the scale. To quote the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." (Sorry if it sounds like I'm talking down to you, but that quote is too good to pass up on using.)

Ambition was not splintered in the Threnodite system, so the chances for the system to keep running into the Splinters are basically zero (and if were to happen, the chances of the planet Threnody running into the Splinters in the system are similarly low). If you had some mechanism to draw the Splinters back, then maybe, but I don't see how it could happen as you propose.

16 minutes ago, Yata said:

ok guys, I asked to Brandon and he said white sand is before than Elantris (here)

Ha, it's almost like he was waiting for me to retract what I said earlier.

Well done on getting confirmation though, have an upvote .

17 hours ago, Nomial said:

I'm fairly sure that Nale doesn't have an honorblade, as when he's fighting Lift in the final passage it says that he attacks her with the blade in the form of an axe, and from Szeth's reaction to Kaladin's spear it's clear that honorblade's can't transform like that. As for the implications of that, it means he must've bonded a highspren but as for how and when and why I don't know

It doesn't say this. It says that he was "hefting his Shardblade like an axe", which actually implies that it wasn't in the form of an axe.

35 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Can you cite a source? I've yet to see any official confirmation of where White Sand set with respect to the other books other than 'it's early,' and White Sand is excluded from the chronology in the new FAQ.

Um, well I was actually thinking of this, I'd forgotten that Peter had only said that he suspected.

I should really amend this to "probably".

17 minutes ago, Yata said:

And if the essay was written before the fall of Elantris ?

It can't have been.

Elantris is set before White Sand, and thus Khriss would not have been in a position where she could have written it before Elantris fell (assuming she'd even been born at that point).

Interesting...

Let's see, we haven't heard of any of the other Shards shapeshifting. All of the other Shard vessels' species (where we know their species) are human, yet we know that not all of the vessels were human. We know that one of the sentient species on Yolen were dragons, and we know that dragons can shapeshift.

Does it sound to anyone else like Bavadin may have been a dragon?

I think that when Brandon said that it happens, he was probably referring to things like the horses that the Ire use.

I imagine that since all known Perpendicularities exist on land, if an animal were to pass through one it would immediately fall through the insubstantial ocean of the Cognitive.

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

Probability in cosmere is probably not something to worry about when you have gods messing with stuff. For all we know Autonomy could just like stars and so he/she/it put a star around a star of the system Autonomy Invested in.

Oh absolutely. I'm simply arguing that it couldn't have formed naturally, i.e. without Shardic intervention.

Or in other words: Autonomy made the system.