happyman

Ouch. Any discussion of the modern understanding of quantum mechanics is going to be wrong unless you are using extremely formal mathematics. Our natural languages just aren't up to the task of treating the concepts in it clearly. The words "particle" and "wave" are ill-defined at a fundamental level. What we call particles are actually self-sustaining excitations of interacting quantized fields. What we call forces are also excitations of quantized fields, but ones that don't propagate indefinitely. This is why forces are associated with particles in pop-sci books; sometimes you can excite the force-creating fields in a way that is self-propagating, getting something that is also a "particle". No, that doesn't mean much to me, either, but it gets the right answers, which is why we use it. What it does mean in terms of this conversation is that saying that a photon acts like a particle or a wave is quite wrong; what it acts like is a photon, and it always acts like a photon. This behavior does include the (to our minds) odd combination of superposing it's phase on top of itself while propagating undetected (creating interference patterns and other rather odd effects), while interacting with other particles as though at a single point, but the photon itself will gladly do both at the same time. Bizarre? Oh yeah. But what reality is apparently based on.

Hmmm. I've said this before, but my take on the Dor is that it absolutely must be some kind of compromise between the Shards. There's plenty of evidence that all the magics on Sel use the Dor as their source: Elantrians can feel Dahkor monks using it; the Dahkor themselves think it's the same thing; the visual effects (e.g. glowing, strength, speed, etc.) overlap heavily between the different systems, and so on. The differences we do see are how and when the power is accessed, but not, as it were, what the power is or does.

I'm all for rational explanations of things that don't seem supernatural, even in fantasy works, but given the Highstorms very, very odd properties (such as causing spheres containing gems to glow, with this glow then fueling magic systems, people having the ability to ride the storms, Dalinar's visions occurring only during Highstorms, and other less obviously odd, but odd, features like the extraordinarily abrupt storm front), having any natural explanation seems like a low-probability event.

Given that Honor is dead, I suspect tFitS is not Honor. Who is it? Not a clue. It's probably way too early to even guess .

Only if you promise to give them back to me after you're done with them. OK, OK, that's bad. It's still what it makes me think of. Back on topic, it seems that the "Child of Tanavast, Child of Honor" thing is very likely deliberate repetition. It's a common and very old technique (try reading the Book of Isaiah some time; the Bible is just larded with this kind of thing), and lends strength and emphasis to the point the speaker is trying to make. On the other hand, it also gains strength by referring to slightly different things, odd as it sounds. The Shardholder's name and the Shards' name would be just about perfect usage in this context.

The more I think about this, the weirder it feels. It's correct, but Shallan's experience with Shadesmar is sorta bizarre. I mean, she talked to the goblet? Either goblets are way smarter than we give them credit for, or she instinctively "understood" things about the goblet, and her mind interpreted that as words. I lean strongly towards the second idea: she instinctively understood how long the goblet had been unchanged (from her contact with it's Cognitive aspect) and interpreted its desire and her power in terms of a conversation.

I actually interpreted that as stating that other star systems would be affected. On the other hand, I interpreted the Shards as referring only to the magics on Roshar. I don't see any reason to change these interpretations. There's a lot at stake here, but we have no idea what exactly, or how Odium could be bound or what effect that would have on the Cosmere as a whole. Local politics always trumps international news, after all.

Thread necromancy might become a problem after later books in the series come out. I mean, could you imagine if someone resurrected our Hemalurgy thread at TWG? Deeply pointless. In this case, though, it's totally on topic and there's no new information available, so I'm all for discussion. Back on topic, I suspect that each ideal will increase Kaladin's powers. Given what they're up against, I sure hope so. They've got a few more levels to go before having a prayer of doing anything worthwhile.

Thucydides, this theory seems like a good place to start. Basic, but well-supported by what we've seen, and nailing down the basics is important. I have to second CrazyRioter. It seems that in the Cosmere, even inanimate objects have a cognitive aspect, which in turn implies that plants definitely have one. (Of course, on Roshar, that hardly comes as a surprise. But it seems likely that even in Shin, the plants have a cognitive aspect.) I would add that the Aons in Elantris are probably connected to the realms as well. After all, they reflect the physical world around them, and if I'm reading the Annotations right, they are also connected to either the spiritual or cognitive realms. Probably all through. (Maybe on Sel, the Cognitive realm is flooded with the Dor. Could make life uncomfortable if you were to go there physically.)

Yeah, I expect the technology to be a little bit Schizoid, what with TLR suppressing some technologies but allowing others to advance (as long as they forward the cause of preservation!). In fact, I would say that we tend to think of a "natural" form for technology to advance in, but this is highly subjective---it comes from the advancement we saw in our world. We have a huge bias to think that the way things happened was the way they had to happen, but there is essentially no evidence for this in the real world.

OK, now I'm really looking forward to Alloy of Law. I just know Brandon has thought of some of these already! With Allomancy and Feruchemy acknowledged parts of the world, it could be really fun to write these kind of stories.

Ooh, I'd really like that quote.

Yes, and this is part of the evidence in favor of Seons being aspects of Aona's consciousness. They seem to be dedicated to a fundamental ideal, just like other shards are. As stated, though, this tends to push Odium's involvement on Sel significantly further into the past. The Reod is then just a natural disaster with really nasty side effects that may have been avoidable if Aona had still been around. Who knows?

If Seons are aspects of Aona's consciousness or power, like some of us theorize, then Aona being splintered probably happened well before any of the events in Elantris.

Seems to me the Seons should definitely be considered in this context as well. I still don't see the connection, though. I hate flailing around blindly! Makes me wonder why I like Brandon's work so much. Oh, yeah. He gives good answers! I would like to add that Brandon's Warbreaker Annotations make it clear that Nightblood really does change and learn more than Vasher admits. Something is very odd about Nightblood, Seons, Spren, etc. Also, we don't know how many Spren could be sentient in the right environment.

In my defense, I'm just reiterating the theory I always espoused (not formally, but I always felt it to be the simplest explanation).

At this point in his life, I seriously doubt it matters. He's Kaladin, for crying out loud! If he's not already a legend among the war camps, he will be soon. (Some people have probably not heard about him. That's not going to last long.) He might as well keep it; everyone will know enough about him, I doubt it will affect him either way in the long run. Who he is will have a much bigger effect.

This sounds right to me. In addition, I would say that after eons of being molded to the power they hold, their relationship with their old selves would have become somewhat tenuous. If you spent fifty years being called Ati and a few thousand being called Ruin and generally enjoying destruction, which one would you think of yourself as? People can change their self-identity over the course of a single lifetime. When you have many longer times to consider, surely the changes can be more radical.

Very interesting story, Zas! I personally would have expected the time involved to be a bit longer, more like generations than decades. Of course, if it's a myth, it could have compressed the action quite a bit.

First a reply to Chaos: It's true that giving up a breath doesn't turn you into a mistwraith. Giving up part of his spirit didn't turn Preservation into a normal human, either. His intelligence and power, etc., were still superhuman, just not as superhuman as Ruin. That's the whole point of my idea that maybe a breath is simply as much as a human can give and still stay a sentient human. In other words, I'm saying that breath isn't an all-or-nothing thing, despite what we were told. There's evidence for that in the book, where Vasher shows the knowledge of how people can give up memories and other small parts of themselves; the commands are probably simply more subtle. OK, this is turning out more complicated than I expected, but it also makes more sense than I thought at first. Basically, what I am now liking is the idea that because humans are of Endownment, they can Endow, or give part of themselves away. The easiest commands, and the first ones that people found, and the only ones people in general know about, are the ones to give away everything they can while still remaining human. That's not all of themselves, or even close to it, but it still has power. That is what is known as a Breath, and since people have different amounts of spare power or strength, the Breaths will be of different quality, and will carry some of the original person with them. With more subtle commands, however, it is apparently possible to give away a smaller amount of yourself. Thus there is no reason to believe that a Breath represents all of your soul, or even close to it. Thus giving away your breath doesn't turn you into a Mistwraith, but it probably is also part of what Endowment gave humans to make them human. To emeralis00: "Spark" wouldn't work for me, but that's just because I've spent too much time reading Girl Genius. As for Sel, I'm inclined to think that Aona and Skai both really do use the same Dor, with their differences being in the different symbols used to channel it, which perhaps change what it possible using the different systems. Let me put it another way: All three magic systems we saw on Sel cause the users to glow when they are using their power. All three have the same visual effects, and many of the same basic outcomes, like increased strength, stamina and the like. All systems seem to draw their power from the Dor. The Dor seems like neutral ground on which the Shards can agree. This is different from Scandrial, where the common ground was the use of metals. The metals for all three systems were absolutely identical, and their usage in the systems was interrelated, but the power sources were very different (e.g. Preservation, Self, Others). With Sel, the Dor seems to be the common ground, with the outlets into the real world changing with Shards. The fact that the Dahkor monks bones are similar to old Fjorell characters makes me think that my idea of people settling where they have more power, thanks to their genetics, is more likely. Or maybe it is the other way around: The shards created places of power and people which were truly neutral, and that slowly changed the people around them to be able to naturally use the powers strongest in their homelands.

Well, we know there are more than two ways to access the Dor. Chay-shan is one of them. Elantris is another. The Dahkor monks are yet a third. Maybe every culture has an affinity for the Dor which comes from their creation? Let me put it another way. Given that both the Dahkor Monks and the Elantrians can access the Dor, I suspect that the Dor is a common power source (or whatever) between the two shards that created the world there, much like Ruin and Preservation shared metal as a focus. Thus any creatures they created would have an affinity for the Dor from both aspects of their creation. The method of accessing the Dor would presumably be determined genetically, both physical and spiritual, just like on Scandrial. Just like on Scandrial, some people are closer to one shard than another and so they tend to exhibit traits and powers more tightly bound to one or the other. Given how Elantris is powered, this would very naturally lead to people associating with lands where there powers are best expressed. Just a possibility, though.

Actually, it seems to me that if you give up your breath, you do lose things. You lose part of yourself. Given that Endowment can apparently give part of himself and keep the rest, why shouldn't we assume that people do the same kind of thing, instinctively? From their Shard's Intent, they give as much of themselves as they can, but they instinctively hold back that little bit that actually makes them sentient. I'd be willing to bet that people who have lost their breath are actually a little bit stupider than before.

LoL. This kind of reminds me of the old Wheel of Time parodies. Short and sweet, and somehow accurate...

Instant photographic memory? Sounds like a question for Brandon. Storing memories works pretty well as Brandon has described it, but I have not idea what an allomantic burn would do to such a thing. A copper twinborn. Wonder what they'd be able to do.

Wait. When did we learn that he's dead?