happyman

Peter, I think you've got it right in every major point. And yes, I suspect that for practical reasons, the powers will have to be tweaked. I suspect there would be refraction, but it's hard to say. Gravitational redshifting is a mess, and as far as I know the only people who really learn it well enough to give a definitive answer are those who decided to study general relativity for a living. Space bends as well, after all. (Rather, space-time picks up a non-Minkowskian metric, but that's about as far as I can say anything without sounding like a complete newb to the real General Relativists.) As for handwavium---I don't know, really. Maybe the metals change the bodies so they can adapt to the odd light effects? Maybe (for whatever reason) metal time-bending doesnt' affect light in the same way, but just affects matter? (Brandon might not like that one, though, if it's meant to really grab time by its essence and push or pull.) That's all I've got.

I agree with Puck. I suspect there is a good reason that people who become Elantrians become Elantrians, and that it's not completely random, or even random at all. Much more likely, it's due to a confluence of complicated and interacting but deterministic factors. It is known that with enough complicated influences, it can be very difficult for humans to determine what the cause is, enough for it to seem random.

Alas, they are not independent pieces of information. The reasons aons aren't used around the pool, and thus no slime, are probably all linked. However, I see no reason to link them to Skai. The pool isn't in Elantris, it is true. It is, however, much closer to Elantris than absolutely anything else, and clearly closely tied to the Elantrians as well. It may well have been sacred to the Elantrians, which might explain the lack of Aons and other things. If it's what's left of a God, it probably was sacred to them, and was probably, despite everything you say, Aona.

I considered that as well. The description is way too close to the creatures Kalak names Thunderclasts to be a coincidence, though. Also there's the fact that the Radiant says she doesn't know who released it, not them. Since they've already fought more than one, it seems more likely that the Essence is something separate from the creatures themselves. Um, could you list the similarities in the descriptions? I was under the impression that they were very, very different. Weren't Midnight Essences the black, formless things that Dalinar fought?

Well, if I remember from one of the annotations, he specifically said that when he was writing Warbreaker, he used one of the religions from Mistborn. Specifically, I believe it was the religion that he offered to Clubs. However, I'm not sure if this is evidence of World-hopping, or if it is simply a "common themes by same author" kind of thing.

Heh. He could always ask one of us to do it. It'd be a nice break from the kinds of problems I do at work. Unfortunately, the fully correct answer may be unworkable as a magic system, so some tweaking and handwaving may be in order.

Well, we seem to have seen Lightweaving on Roshar, so I'll have to count that as the most likely example. Hoid seemed to have other abilities as well, especially in regards to the music. This is the obvious example, I know. It's just that without evidence, I don't see it going much further that this. The people we saw in Clearlake were probably from Sel, but we don't know for certain that they are Elantrians. Even if they are Elantrians, they might not have been using their magic. So that one is more questionable.

Ok that makes more sense. so when he said that there were two metals no one knew of he meant unalloyed ones and was talking about Chromium and Cadmium which each had an alloy? Is that right? Yep. It's confirmed on the post-MB3 table of Allomantic metals.

I have to think that either (a) Dalinar is right about why they waited or ( it's something completely different, something cultural, not physiological, that had them waiting for him to leave. Both are possible given how little we know, but the heart-rate idea seems unlikely.

It's possible, of course, but I don't think we have much evidence the favor it, either. While the Lord Ruler was alive, he controlled the Inquisitors allomantically himself, so I suspect he didn't think Ruin could control them while he was alive and able to control them. As for your other points, IIRC, the scene had the Inquisitors going after them after they sensed intruders burning metals. Thus all inquisitors who showed up would be prepared to fight Allomamcers. Enemy mistborn would be a very real problem if this was the case and the Inquisitors would come prepared. Also, the Lord Ruler had access to as much Atium as he wanted. The scarcity wasn't a problem for him; it was just a problem for everybody else.

Again, I have to say that Timewaster11 has it right. I have a PhD in Physics, myself, and quantum mechanics is an important part of every physics curriculum I know and I've solved tons of problems in the fields. The quantum mechanical effects of light are quite difficult to solve, but no theory we have for light invalidates the simple wavelength-counting Timewater11 is describing. The fact that light is quantized as photons doesn't effect any of his arguments; each individual photon is also a nonlocalized wave with a wavelength that changes when traveling through a gravitational potential. If you think this is bizarre, take it up with the universe; I'm sure it will listen to your complaints.

I was going to weigh in, but Timemaster11 made the most important points for me. I endorse his explanation. I would add to his addendum that Special Relativity *can* handle acceleration quite simply, but it does require an extra postulate beyond the famous two, known as the Clock Postulate, which states that you can treat an accelerating system as having an infinite series of constant velocities for infinitesimally short times, with no other side effects. This postulate has been confirmed experimentally many, many times and the techniques to handle acceleration in Special Relativity are used all the time by particle physicists. Also, I would say that the behavior of Cadmium and Bendalloy as described by Brandon are much more like gravity in general relativity than velocity in special relativity, and finding a corresponding velocity to special relativity doesn't mean much. The fact that Timemaster11's explanation is independent of mechanism is it's best feature, by far!

Well, the Shardblades came from somewhere, and they are fueled by Stormlight. I think that the term "Shard" in the name should mean something. Being essentially divine gifts or something like that would make a certain amount of sense. There's not a lot of evidence, but it isn't unreasonable, or completely off the wall.

I wonder if, given enough time and experimentation, there would be a way for them to make synthetic Breath? I doubt that Brandon would work something like that into the stories, but it seems like something that the Five Scholars would have wanted to work towards. Dunno. The number of breaths you can get limits the magic pretty strongly and in interesting ways, so it's a useful thing to keep in full force, from a story viewpoint. From a philosophical viewpoint, it just doesn't seem likely given what little we know about the world of Warbreaker.

Although to be fair, that could also describe the way that various lines can modify existing Aons. I got the impression that the modifiers, etc., weren't generally known. I think they were talking about just the base Aons.

In reference to this discussion, I should probably add in that Brandon has now confirmed in the Annotations on his website that losing your breath really is bad for you. It's not just prejudice on the Idrian's part; Drabs are more irritable, more prone to disease, and generally not quite all there anymore. It really is part of their soul they have given up, and it does have bad side-effects.

I think we've learned enough now that we might make sense of these. Each order of Knights Radiant had access to two magic systems. Maybe the memories are a manifestation of the magic system that Shallan has that Jasnah does not. As to how the Spren relate to it---we don't know. We still haven't figured out whether each type of bonding-spren (if that's how it works) provides two magic systems, or if they bond two spren, or what.

Actually, I'm basing part of my assumptions off of something Brandon said about how in the Cosmere, getting the same type of effect will have generally similar behavior. The fact that many of his enhanced humans are stronger, tougher, heal faster, have faster reflexes, etc., suggest that if one of the Knights Radiant abilities are general physical enhancement, it will be very similar to (spoilers for other books, esp. Elantris) Thugs, Returned, full-strength Elantrians, Dahkor monks, etc. All these enhancements also have variations between them, however, so such similarities don't bug me much. This also seems entirely appropriate for Dalinar. It fits his observed abilities, his personality, and all of the meager evidence which we do have.

Now that we know that there were two Shards on Sel, three magic systems makes sense, but is hardly the only possibility. BTW, doesn't it seem like the powers of these shards (Aona and Skai) are probably related to each other? They seem to be somewhat symmetric, assuming that Elantrian magic is related to Aona and Dahkor magic to Skai. Both use alphabets to access the power, both use the Dor in interrelated ways which can be used to effect the other magic system, both provide many of the same benefits, and both have access to Seon-like things (Seons or Skaze). There are differences, but they seem to break down along lines similar to the differences between Hemalurgy and Allomancy (e.g. Dahkor gets the power from killing people, Elantris gets it straight from the Dor).

I was just looking over the appendix to Elantris recently. There are many, many more than either 10 or 16 Aons. At one point, Galladon is complaining that Raoden's people had taken too long to invent a real alphabet, and Raoden responds that the Aons are an alphabet, just "An incredibly complex one." Neither 10 nor 16 Aons could possibly fit this description.

The Shards seem like the most likely difference between them, although it's awful hard to imagine Way of Kings with Kalidin having taken the Shards. I suppose he still went to war, though? Definitely a good example of an alternate history, I can tell you that.

This is another one of those tricky Brandon situations, isn't it? (/Extremely minor mistborn spoiler) It reminds me oh so much of trying to understand Hemalurgy before MB3 came out. (/end spoiler) I would have to say that from the textual evidence, and on my reread of the fight with the Chasmfiend, Dalinar was definitely using one of the powers of one of the orders of the Knight's Radiant. It matches all the important points, including powers beyond even a normal Shardholder, glowing armor, and perhaps most importantly, Dalinar's perception that something had changed. Stonesinew seems like an extremely good candidate. (Another Mistborn reference, not really a spoiler, but kinda) May I go so far as to say that description of this fight reminds me of nothing so much as a Thug? Stronger, faster, more durable, generally a better fighter? Which. given Shardplate, is saying something. As for how it is powered: Hard to say. Given what Dalinar saw the Knights Radiant doing in his visions, though, I would have to say that there must be a way of getting power that doesn't involve draining the armor. Stormlight seems like the most likely source, by a long shot, but we just don't know enough. Again, I'm having flashbacks to earlier discussions about Brandon's magic systems. Which means it will all make sense when we learn enough. Argh!

As I see it we've really only got a handle on two magic numbers: 16 (number of Shards and Allomantic metals) and 10 (Essences, Heralds, Orders of Knight's Radiant, etc). We might possibly have a third magic number if we count 3 (the number of realms-physical, spiritual, cognitive). 16 being the number of shards seems significant because it is 2^(2^2), or a pair of pairs of pairs. This is certainly how the Allomantic metals are arranged. Even if the shards are not all paired off as exact opposites, it would not surprise me if they somehow had an organizational scheme that broke down along these lines. As for 10---I really don't know. Maybe it somehow connects to the physical structure of the elements in the cosmere? Although it always really bugs me when there is some fundamental physics that is completely different from our world at base, yet ends up with something that acts exactly the same way at the macroscopic scale, but it's hard to get Soulcasting to work if this isn't true somehow. I have to agree though---10 being a holy symbol on Roshar probably follows from it's other known properties. Doesn't make the idea of it being holy wrong though---it's got lots of nifty properties on Roshar that would probably convince me as well.

No, as far as we can tell the Elantrians who were Elantrians when the Reod hit became half-formed quasi-lepers, just like everybody else who transformed afterwords. Case in point is the Hoed who led Raoden to the pool, as well as several references to Elantrians being killed after the change came. I'm not certain this answers all the questions. My assumption is that Raoden isn't completely right, and that the Dor is needed to maintain the transformation even after it has finished.

Well, that's the thing. The shards are so much larger than humans that even a little piece of it left behind can be moderately functional from a human standpoint. Even if the shard proper has been splintered, there could be some lingering functionality or imprint of personality that can direct events weakly. The power lying around could still be directed and controlled. It just wouldn't be on the kind of scale that could challenge another Shardholder, or even be useful. Just coherent and fulfilling its power's function.