Mid-Range Game 56: Day of Reckoning

[Experience he/him]

2 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

This vote count provided last minute is wrong, which I immediately attributed to mean that exp/karn are not e/e because I feel like they’d keep a better track of record if a teammate was getting lynched. Though a more paranoid part of me is considering the possibility that exp rioted their vote to me, which would bring the votes up to 5 - accidentally mixed the VCs up in the heat of the moment and posted the wrong one maybe. Worth thinking about??

The whole last minute train that formed on Karn is interesting and kinda makes me lean village on Aman because he did the same thing to Jon in LGsomethingsomething as V!Aman. Even the reason he cited then was the same as now - aka he related it to the CFD he did at some championship game. I remember this VIVIDLY because that turn was super stressful for me as I was a poor elim tossed into the middle of it xD As for the rest of the Karn voters, I’ll have to evaluate. Will probably ISO Araris at some point this cycle, and as well as Devo and Ash. 

Ummm. I actually thought that was what it was, but it was last second when I saw he asked so not suprised if i messed it up.

Well. If mat had flipped elim, I would have been pretty certain that araris was a bussing teamate. I don't know what to think though. I guess I'll put a vote on Araris for now because my gut is so uneasy about him.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Experience

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

I've apparently forgotten how to play this game without putting in more effort than I wanted to, and more than I enjoy.

In the interests of looking after myself, I'll post what I've got now, and will carry on tomorrow.

Cycle	Post	Player	Summary	Vote	Retractions	Thoughts	AI (perceived)	Notable connections
One	1	TJ	Writeup	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	2	Experience	Asks if PMs are open	N/A	N/A	Trivial to check in rules. Performative?	Mild evil	None
One	3	TJ	Clarifies that PMs are closed	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	4	Kasimir	Answers Experience, says PMs default closed, but may open.	N/A	N/A	Has read rules	NAI	None
One	5	Ashbringer	Poke vote on Matrim's Dice, no content	Matrim's Dice	N/A	Prepared to vote early	Unsure	Votes on Matrim's Dice
One	6	Archer	Suggests wording of TJ's PM clarification makes a PM role less likely, but that they had been assuming one. Votes on Kas. RP	Kasimir	N/A	Blackout game - interesting to assume anything. Reason for making speculation public? Vote on Kas - who has engaged. Value? Not putting pressure as not given reason, so why Kas? Ask.	Very mild evil	Votes on Kasimir
One	7	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Asks how this works, says first game, needs to know ehther we vote each post	N/A	N/A	Consider giving benefit of doubt. However, reading even one page of one game would give answer to this, feels very much like playing up being new	Moderate evil	None
One	8	Kasimir	RP, poke vote on Devotary. Asks TJ to get IM to give Thaidakar information on how to play. Tells Thaidakar how to vote.	Devotary	N/A	Feels genuine re Thaidakar - might be prepared to rule out Thaidakar/Kasimir e/e. Doesn't address Archer, but nothing to address	If Thaidakar evil, moderate village	Helpful/genuine to Thaidakar, poke votes Devotary
One	9	Experience	Quotes Archer RP, thinks they've found "the krrok", votes on Archer. RPs	Archer	N/A	Presume vote is RP related, not sure I follow. Archer not unreasonable vote given vote on Kas	Likely NAI	Votes on Archer
One	10	Illwei	Votes on Dannnex	Dannnex	N/A	Poke vote	NAI	Votes on Dannnex
One	11	Experience	Makes bad joke about Illwei's post	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	12	Illwei	Suggests Experience's joke is a dad joke	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	13	Ashbringer	Answers Thaidakar about whether they have to vote in every post	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	Helpful to Thaidakar
One	14	Dannnex	Votes on TJ, suggests it's a joke	TJ	N/A	Has worked in some games, doesn't contribute to thread	NAI	None
One	15	Matrim's Dice	Votes on Thaidakar, says "hi", doesn't want to kill them, asks if they've read the rules/etiquette thread. Will RP, is glad that there won't be D1 distro discussion	Thaidakar	N/A	Friendly post. Agree that distribution discussion often of limited value.	NAI	Friendly vote on Thaidakar
One	16	Stick	Multiquotes a number of posts. Agrees with Archer that PMs might come from an event. Explains how game works to Thaidakar.	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	17	TJ	Unimpressed meme in response to Dannnex's vote	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	18	Kasimir	Makes joke in response to TJ meme	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	19	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Votes on Dannnex, clarifies they do not want to kill them	Dannnex	N/A	Unsure. Could be eliminator overworrying about poke vote, or could be villager not understanding meta. Why Dannnex?	Unsure	Votes on Dannnex
One	20	Archer	Says last game e!JNV was asking questions like that (like what? Presume like one asked by Thaidakar?). Suggests non-partisan assistance the way to go. Asks if anyone else got a weirdly specific role TJ is PAFOing questions about. Asks Thaidakar what their plan is given their clarification about Dannnex	N/A	N/A	Making role claim of game material consequence. Baiting a kill/pretending to to justify not being attacked later on? More likely latter, could equally be baiting roles investigating to discover targets?	Very mild village	None
One	21	Stick	Comments on TJ's meme	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	22	Matrim's Dice	Asks for clarification from Archer on e!JNV	N/A	N/A	Fair question	None	Less likely e!Matrim/e!Archer
One	23	Kasimir	Comments on Archer's thoughts on Thaidakar/JNV parallels. Questions whether Thaidakar playing up new player image, considers it currently NAI	N/A	N/A	Agree worth acknowledging possibility.	NAI	Acknowledges possibility of e!Thaidakar
One	24	Archer	Says they didn't mean JNV but meant JungleFiend	N/A	N/A	Verifiable	NAI	None
One	25	Stick	Quotes aArcher, notes their role claim. Also claims to have been bombarding TJ with questions, and to have recieved PAFOs in response.	N/A	N/A	Also, therefore, claiming a role. Question whether gained any information more widely useful from questions. If claiming early possession of role, then potential target regardless - value in claiming specifics of role? Unless knows game role madness (TMI?) and therefore feels safe claiming?	Mild evil	Questions Archer
One	26	TJ	Clarifies meme	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	27	Szeth Pancakes	Explicit poke vote on StrikerEZ	StrikerEZ	N/A	None	NAI	Poke votes on StrikerEZ
One	28	Matrim's Dice	Has asked GM question that wasn't PAFO'd.	N/A	N/A	What was question about?	NAI	None
One	29	Kasimir	Expresses incredulity at questions being asked	N/A	N/A	Attempting to suggest no role?	NAI	None
One	30	Ashbringer	Comments on Fog/Frog confusion	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	31	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Responds to Archer, says they said they didn't want to kill Dannnex when voting on them because Dannnex said the same to them	N/A	N/A	Feels genuine, mistaken about who voted on them	Mild village	None
One	32	Stick	Says asking questions knowing they'll receive PAFOs, asking anyway	N/A	N/A	Reinforcing roleclaim?	Unsure	None
One	33	TJ	Comments on title confusion	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	34	Devotary	RP, votes on Ashbringer for RP reasons	Ashbringer	N/A	Reasonable poke vote target	NAI	Poke/RP vote on Ashbringer
One	35	Kasimir	Makes comments on title puns	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	36	Tani	Questions TJ about his meme	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	37	Dannnex	Tells Thaidakar it was Matrim's Dice who voted on them	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	38	Matrim's Dice	Corrects Thaidakar about having voted on them. Suggests Szeth's poke vote might be a Szeth elim tell, but could just be normal behaviour	N/A	N/A	Gut dislike of equivocation on Szeth	Very mild evil	None
One	39	Kasimir	Quotes Matrim's Dice about Szeth, retracts on Devotary, votes on Matrim.	Matrim's Dice	Devotary	If vote is from quote, understandable	Very mild good	Votes on Matrim's Dice
One	40	Illwei	Doesn't believe Thaidakar e/e with Dannnex or Matrim's Dice. Thinks Matrim probably village for not voting on Szeth	N/A	N/A	I disliked the equivocation on Szeth, but can see how it could be seen as uncertain villager. Agree re Thaidakar. Attempt to solve game	Mild good	Matrim more likely village
One	41	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Apologises for getting Matrim and Dannnex confused, says their head exploded from amount they're keeping track of	N/A	N/A	Not sure too much to keep track of at this point?	Mild evil	None
One	42	Matrim's Dice	RP. Replies to Kasimir about a "shuffle squat"	N/A	N/A	Unsure what they're referring to	NAI	None
One	43	Kasimir	Questions Matrim about his Szeth equivocation	N/A	N/A	Agree worth probing	Unsure	Interrogating Matrim
One	44	Archer	Quotes Devotary's RP, asks them whether they're claiming not to be an epic. Says Matrim's take is interesting	N/A	N/A	Reinforces claim to be an Epic. Question why insistent on role claiming	Unsure	None
One	45	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Votes on Archer	Archer	Dannnex	Archer definitely up to something, unsure whether villager gambit or elim. Absence of justification makes me suspect less likely elim jumping on this	Moderate village	Votes on Archer
One	46	Matrim's Dice	Meant that they thought Szeth's poke vote was just something Szeth does. Asks Thaidakar why they voted on Archer	N/A	N/A	Unclear therefore why they posted it	Mild evil	None
One	47	Devotary	Responds to Archer, says that Reckoners are famously not Epics.	N/A	N/A	Not a village aligned Epic, isn't aware of them	Very marginally more likely evil	None
One	48	Tani	Votes on TJ	TJ	N/A	Not useful	NAI	None
One	49	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Says vote on Archer due to gut	N/A	N/A	Feels good from new player - I think an elim more likely to justify themselves	Mild village	None
One	50	Araris	RP. Suggests Thaidakar be responsible with vote placing. Assists Kas with "shuffle thing" votes on Mat	Matrim's Dice	N/A	Equally, voting gives more information to consider. What is meant by shuffle thing?	Unsure	Votes on Matrim's Dice
One	51	Stick	Votes on Tani, makes joke about them wanting a train on TJ	Tani	N/A	Not a serious vote	NAI	Joke vote on Tani
One	52	Experience	Asks whether Archer has an Epic role they want to tell us about	N/A	N/A	Archer has been hinting at a role - worth questioning it. Think questioning it is NAI. Also unaware of village aligned Epics - marginally more likely to be evil	NAI	Questions Archer
One	53	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Reacts to Araris with alarm, says did not realise vote is tool meant to kill someone	N/A	N/A	Respectfully, fairly basic part of game that vote to lynch. Feels like performative overreaction	Moderate evil	None
One	54	Matrim's Dice	Replies to Araris, suggests voting also a tool to gauge reactions to being voted on, takes Thaidakar's misunderstanding at face value. Says only they and Kas can shuffle.	N/A	N/A	Agree re voting as tool for information	NAI	None
One	55	Ashbringer	Points out that Matrim has three votes on them	N/A	N/A	Themself included as a poke vote. Why leaving vote on given build up of votes?	Unsure. Not sure Matrim feels under pressure, why leave vote on?	None
One	56	Araris	Says they can also shuffle with Kas. Asks Ashbringer who the third vote is	N/A	N/A	Keep the flirting out of thread, gentlemen.	NAI	None
One	57	Ashbringer	Says they were first vote on Matrim	N/A	N/A	Continued absence of justification for prolonged poke vote	Very mild evil	None
One	58	Stick	Says they were ninja'd by Araris, and missed Ashbringer's vote	N/A	N/A	Fair enough	NAI	None
One	59	Araris	Suggests thread should put more votes on other players	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	60	Experience	Votes on Araris	Araris	N/A	Feels like vote purely responsive	NAI	None
One	61	Matrim's Dice	Says they've been the leading train two hours into in D1 six times, has been lynched D1 once	N/A	N/A	Feels unconcerned by pressure, think NAI - vote lead two hours into D1 unlikely to hold as they point out	NAI	None
One	62	Araris	Insists on being voted on, isn't often voted out D1, is in LG	N/A	N/A	Nonchalance about being voted out	Probably NAI	None
One	63	Stick	Wary of Experience and Thaidakar, attributes it to gut	N/A	N/A	Agree re both	Mild village	Wary of Thaidakar and Experience
One	64	Experience	Offers Stick a cookie to assuage their gut	N/A	N/A	Not worried about it	Very mild village	None
One	65	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Is also beginning to think Experience is suspicious	N/A	N/A	Agree, want to see reasoning. Reactive to Stick's suspicion?	Mild evil	Suspicious of Experience
One	66	Ashbringer	Asks whether people mind mind games.	N/A	N/A	Point of asking?	Unsure	None
One	67	Experience	RP	N/A	N/A	NAI	NAI	None
One	68	Matrim's Dice	Gut village of Stick, Ashbringer, TJ. Null on Thaidakar and Araris, thinks Kas and Experience feel normal, but that that's not necessarily village, might be in Kas' case	N/A	N/A	Would question gut takes, now seen Matrim's alignment.	Known non-village	See post
One	69	Experience	Notes Matrim included GM in village reads	N/A	N/A	NAI	NAI	None
One	70	Araris	Matrim putting GM in village reads makes them want to leave their vote on them	N/A	N/A	Not sure I see it as anything more than a joke	Very mild evil	None
One	71	Ashbringer	Says hello to Striker	N/A	N/A	Presume Striker was viewing the thread	NAI	None
One	72	Striker	RP. Votes on Matrim's Dice as one of the times they vote on them early in D1 exe has to be right. Has bad gut read on them. Says will disappear for a while after post. Asks for vote count	Matrim's Dice	N/A	Obviously (and probably deliberately) poor logic for vote on Matrim's Dice. Why ask for vote count if disappearing?	Gut mild evil	Votes on Matrim's Dice
One	73	Tani	"VC: Numbers"	N/A	N/A	Joke	NAI	None
One	74	TUA	RP. Says they should add game comments, but don't have any. Might just RP and chill	N/A	N/A	If not going to make comments, not contributing as village, impossible to solve. Should policy lynch at appropriate point	Functionally not village	None
One	75	Matrim's Dice	Says they're aware that TJ is the GM, and putting them as village was taking an active stance against people voting for him. Points out that Striker's logic on voting for him based on past games is flawed. Says amazing that can get village read in one game and elim read in another without changing playstyle. Says Striker objectively wrong to claim they're not talking to anyone	N/A	N/A	Unlikely that eliminators woudl actively seek to change their playstyle. Feels slightly performative, moot point, known non village. Think Striker's point was RP only?	Known non-village	None
One	76	Illwei	Thinks Experience and Araris village. Thinks Thaidakar not e/e with Matrim, Dannnex, or Stick, Experience not e/e with Araris or Archer, Ashbringer not e/e with Striker. Leaning village on Ashbringer for poking Striker when Striker was viewing the thread, thinks NAI in reality. Suspicious of Kasimir for attempt to appear normal	N/A	N/A	Would like to see justifications for team exclusions. Need to check notes, agree with at least some, but would be helpful to have called out what they're reliant on. Like being clear with reads.	Mild village	See post
One	77	Archer	Says they are an epic, wants to figure out if everyone is an Epic. Claims their role is that they can ask dead people questions if their alignment hasn't been confirmed. Asks if anyone is not an epic	N/A	N/A	Bold to assume everyone an Epic from their own role. Unsure where additional information from. If role true, feels more likely village aligned than elim aligned. Odd role to make up, easily verifiable.	Don't think an eliminator would know immediately that village aligned epics exist pre-D1 lynch. Moderately hard clear village?	Sceptical of Devotary
One	78	Illwei	Tells people not to answer Archer asking if anyone isn't an Epic	N/A	N/A	Agree generally with wisdom of not roleclaiming, dislike Illwei asserting it as wisdom - both useful to see who makes claims, and potentially claiming cred for saying village-like things	Mild evil	None
One	79	TUA	Claims to be a regular	N/A	N/A	Don't think AI. Could be villager seeking to make themselves less of a target (not sure villagers actually should do so), or elim seeking to avoid havign to explain actions down the road	NAI	None
One	80	Archer	Votes on Illwei, as thinks they have said previously that secrecy of blackout distributions favours eliminators.	Illwei	Kasimir	Actions consistent with stated beliefs. Feels genuine.	Moderate village	Votes on Illwei
One	81	STINK	Asks whether it's worth them reading the last four pages	N/A	N/A	Always, but not inconsistent with historic playstyle	NAI	None
One	82	Matrim's Dice	Doesn't know how Archer could confirm no vanilla roles without access to the player list.	N/A	N/A	Known non-village	Known non-village	None
One	83	Striker	Responds to Matrim, says not talking to anyone was RP reason for vote. Retracts from Matrim, votes on Stink	STINK	Matrim's Dice	Why retract vote? One substantive Matrim post in interim - what in it made them retract? Stink being consistent - easy vote?	Mild evil	Votes on Stink
One	84	Matrim's Dice	Acknowledges Striker's RP	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	85	STINK	Quotes Striker's vote, "Truly great to be back"	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	86	Devotary	Replies to Archer, says it is their RP character who isn't an Epic. Says bold move for Archer to claim Epic in game where elim team are corrupted Epics	N/A	N/A	Actively isn't claiming vanilla. Not sure Epic claim if elims listed as corrupted Epics is so bold - question what Devotary meant by this.	Gut moderate evil	Sus of Archer?
One	87	Experience	Elims being "corrupted" epics leads them to think there are some villager epics	N/A	N/A	Very fair assumption. Reassess alignment indicativeness of Archer claim. Read rules in greater depth myself next game.	NAI	None
One	88	Matrim's Dice	Elims being corrupted epics not just epics, villagers being Reckoner Allies not Reckoners implies village epics, ninja'd by Experience	N/A	N/A	Very fair assumption. Reassess alignment indicativeness of Archer claim. Read rules in greater depth myself next game.	Known non-village	None
One	89	Striker	Trivial reply to STINK	N/A	N/A	None	NAI	None
One	90	TUA	Is claiming regular	N/A	N/A	None new	NAI	None
One	91	Devotary	Expects a higher percentage of epics than regulars to be eliminators. Non-epics on corrupted epics team would be funny	N/A	N/A	Possibly, but more villagers than elims, so epic not necessarily more likely to be elim than village. Don't think it justifies assessment of Archer's claim as bold	Mild evil	None
One	92	Stick	Expresses incredulity at Archer's claim, suggests they might be setting themself up for the night kill. Says we shouldn't be mass claiming	N/A	N/A	Gut read as performative	Mild evil	None
One	93	Ashbringer	Says we need Elims to claim Reckoners, or what Devotary said	N/A	N/A	Not quite sure I follow	Unsure	None
One	94	Archer	Isn't sure whether Devotary elim or vanilla villager. Thinks some level of claiming necessary in blackout gain to understand the game. Had initially assumed everyone was an Epic, thinks TUA's defence of Devotary so indirect it felt genuine.	N/A	N/A	Agree re interrogation of Devotary. Why assume everyone an Epic based on their own role - feels odd. But again, odder to assume as an eliminator.	Mild village	Suspicious of Devotary
One	95	Illwei	Blackout of all information favours eliminators, but this does not mean total openness favours village. Village claims narrow NK possibilities for eliminators. Will treat further elim claims as elim.	N/A	N/A	Very odd to say vanilla claims will be read as evil. Feels llike threat to make people not claim, as not reliable alignment-discerning tool, which Illwei must know. Plausible to want to dissuade village claims regardless of alignment	Mild evil from coercion	None
One	96	TJ	Vote count	GM	GM	GM	GM	GM
One	97	Ashbringer	Says we should be cautious nitpicking GM PMs, and thinks doing so might be against the rules	N/A	N/A	Not sure spirit of the rules precludes questioning GM in blackout game, if so, poorly written rule.	NAI	None
One	98	TUA	Says they may have stepped over the line of not nitpicking GM PMs	N/A	N/A	Not sure they did	NAI	None
One	99	STINK	Thought game would have PMs	N/A	N/A	Indirectly implying no doc to chat in? Plausibly performative	Unsure	None
One	100	Matrim's Dice	Asks whether there are neutral roles, as factions section of rules is definitive. Doesn't see a reason not to vote for Dannnex, votes for them	Dannnex	Thaidakar	Why would GM give clarity in blackout game. Known non-village, suggests thought of themselves as neutral	Known non-village	None
One	101	Thaidakar the Ghostblood	Asks how much RP this game involves, and whether they should RP	N/A	N/A	Can read thread and see not everyone RPing - performative? Unsure	Unsure	None
One	102	Matrim's Dice	Tells Thaidakar that RP is optional, encourages them to introduce their character	N/A	N/A	NAI	Known non-village	None

 

[Araris Valerian he/him]

58 minutes ago, Experience said:

Well. If mat had flipped elim, I would have been pretty certain that araris was a bussing teamate.

I finished by voting on Karn, who was a counter-train to Mat. So if I was bussing, I was doing it pretty incompetently. Actually, I'm going to vote Karnatheon again, sort of as a placeholder but not entirely. I don't like that there was vote manip used to save him, given that he was pretty inactive, there wasn't that strong of a case against Mat (basically just standard D1 stuff), and all the votes on him happened near end of cycle. I can see an elim team panicking and throwing out excessive amounts of vote manip because they don't know how many people will follow Aman.

Of course, that is kinda assuming that Mat was village, since the vote manipping was in his favor, and I don't think anything except a probabilistic argument can be made strongly for his alignment.

Also, @Experience, if you are village (or even if you're elim, I suppose), you should probably put some thought in about the other players. Nothing wrong with voting/ISOing me, but you left your vote on me most of last cycle as well, so be wary of tunnel vision.

Just saw an Orlok post go up, so I'll see if there's anything to discuss there.

@Orlok Tsubodai, the thing about shuffling was a joke, but it fit since I wanted to vote Mat anyways. I'll comment on some of the rest of your analysis later, but you flagged a couple of Devo's posts as elim, and that fits with my gut read from last cycle (admittedly I find it pretty hard to read Devo) as well as my general dislike of most of the votes on Stick.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Araris Valerian

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

38 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

question what Devotary meant by this.

This meant 'If you picked a random Epic and a random non-Epic, the Epic has a higher likelihood of being evil'. Archer's claim thus put him in a category of players that has a higher percentage of elims, regardless of whether there are more village Epics than elim Epics.

[Kasimir he/him]

A. General Engagement With Thread

Spoiler

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

Not really??? there’s been bunch of times when a village flip has given us enough info to incriminate others because there’s vote analysis etc.

Yes, but as a matter of principle, info-lynches grind my gears. I usually want to at least try to go for someone I suspect, and then ordered by informational value from within that suspect pool, rather than just go "welp" and info-lynch out the gate. The one exception for me is a situation where the pool is pretty restricted and I dislike most of the existing trains, then it's a question of going 'less bad', or I suppose potentially informational.

The info from the village flip is necessary but it doesn't make the village flip in and of itself something to be desired. We don't actively lynch players whom we think are Village because it'll be informative - we lynch players we are not quite sure about or whose villageness we are not set on and hopefully we do want it to be informative. That's an odd position to take because it blurs the line between deliberate Villager ML and "silver lining to necessary ML." (Sorry Sart. Sorry Jain.)

I'm strong on this point because we deliberately MLed Jain in LG7, even knowing he was likely a Villager, and we nearly deliberately MLed Kal Dell as well. It's never sat right with me.

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

On to the present…we basically gained no info due to the lack of a flip, other than confirmation for Mat’s roleclaim and supporting evidence for at least some parts of Archer’s (i.e. the fact that alignments may not be revealed). I’ve already previously said that I can see Mat’s role being either a village or elim one, so my stance is that Mat was probably elim. Karn/Mat e/e is not impossible, given the vote manip that took off half the Karn votes and two Mat votes. 

My current working assumption is that Mat will alignment flip after a cycle (two seems too cruel to the Village); alternatively, we should have scanner roles like Wilson's initial Veristitalian plan in MR10 (don't remember if she kept it when we ran the game), which scan the dead rather than the living. I feel that the first is more likely; otherwise, we absolutely need a redundancy of scanners and protects for them because the Village is going to be very badly hamstrung if we can't even rely on lynches giving alignment flips. Honestly, I dgaf about role flips as much - it's the alignment one we badly needed :| The point of the lynch is to tell us if our suspicions are or are not on track, after all.

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

Hm. What does a kill being blocked entail? Like, wouldn’t the write up show if someone survives the kill? 

Sometimes roleblocks mean something doesn't even show up in the write-up. The logic is that since the kill was roleblocked, it never happened, so there's no survival to be written up at all. I'm aware that's how the MR2 ruleset ran. Would be good to get @|TJ| to sound off on that.

FWIW if the kill did get roleblocked, squinty eyes at everyone pushing conversion, which looks to be Karn, Ash, some support from TUA, because I'd read that as a good way to erode Village certainty or the sense of information gained.

Huh. Actually, I take it back on the conversion thought. I do know balance was fiddly for this game (you can see TJ's concerns about it in the tag "pls be balanced" - it doesn't show up properly now but if you've posted C1, check your post history) - IMO, conversion with delayed alignment flips seems like a steep climb for the Village. Conversion - doesn't fully reset your information but it certainly renders your reads unreliable. Add delayed flips on top of that and that's a bunch of disadvantages for the Village - which, recall, is the uninformed majority. So where's the counterbalance for that? How do we make it fair for the Village? Interested to hear people's thoughts, but I'm currently leaning no on conversion, if not having serious restrictions - LG29 did in fact have a one cycle delay, but that was also a Shard game so /shrugs

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

On to the present…we basically gained no info due to the lack of a flip,

and

Quote

But I feel better about voting mat than stick and really voting on karn only help the elims unless karn is elim. In which case we get an elim, but are left back at basically c1 again. [...] 

Link to Exp's posts here.

I'll be honest: this right there is frustrating, both from Stick and from Experience last cycle, who felt that lynching Stick or Mat would be more informative because otherwise we couldn't progress this cycle! Because the point is that we have to work on conditional information and vote analysis-supplemented reads this cycle anyway (pity we don't have NK information to go off, but oh well) - anyone who remotely believed Archer was truthful about his role was committed to that conclusion.

I get it could be a statement rather than a complaint, but that's just how the set-up of this game is (shaking my fist at TJ!) and like it or not, we do have to work around it. Conditionally, if Mat flips V, I'd feel better about Stick. It's not ideal but it's still information. We have the fact that Mat, myself, Araris, Tani, and Karn were all amenable to last-minute persuasion about changing trains or expanding a new train. STINK claimed to be divided between Karn and Mat but ultimately didn't vote. (TBH, the pragmatist in me agrees with both STINK and Axl's D1 thoughts, but I also believe that we're required to act/play as though we're not pragmatists.)

You can still do your voting clusters - they're just conditional, and you have a set for "If Mat is E", and "if Mat is V." The very fact you want to ISO Karn voters suggests that it has in fact been informative, just not as much as expected! And I would absolutely full-throatedly encourage everyone do that, both reads and vote analysis, even if you have to asterisk part of it until we get a Mat flip.

And then we do better this cycle. We keep discussion broad and suspicions fluid, as Meta has always urged, and apparently I'm one of the last SE-ers standing to remember and continuously push for that, because to allow discussion to narrow down is just bad, and allows the Elims who aren't in our search grid to skate by without pressure. There's no reason we should make it so easy on them. (I'm aware of the conversion thoughts - my perspective right now as we play it straight.) I dropped that ball bad last cycle, and that's entirely on me. I'd like to not have been so distracted with RL and stressors but that's still on me.

 

B. End of Cycle Thoughts:

Spoiler

I want to say a bit about my last minute hesitation because I expect I'll be asked, and ideally I really should not be here for this cycle. I've stated I should/need to take the cycle off to recover, and I'd like to say I've learned it's important to not persist under - bad conditions. I admit I feel a bit torn because part of me still feels I made a commitment when I signed up, and I shouldn't be willing to demand more of other players than I'm personally willing to give. But I think at the end of the day, I'll do more harm than good if I try to keep forcing myself to tank things out. So there's that.

So I'll do that, and drop a reads list, and peace out. Gods, I still need to post Mordred RP at some point. I really liked his arc but no bandwidth right now. I'll come back in intermittently but I really want to focus on being in a better state of mind so that I can do some analysis with confidence.

Long story short: I really liked this and this tipped me.

Is it possible that Mat is laying down a false trail to force a wasted cycle? Absolutely, since we still have one more cycle before flip results come out. But I just really liked it as an attitude. It's the one I always go into the game with as a Villager, which is Village before me, and I always want to try to leave the Village in a better place before I die which is why overcommitment happens a lot. 

It's something I feel I haven't seen from Mat for a decent chunk of our exchanges, but when it did switch on, it hit me very strongly.

So I guess I'm back in confusion about Mat and will have to wait for the flip.

My current end of cycle thoughts:

• I feel that it's unlikely for Karn train to be predominantly Elim. Aman was very obviously baiting with repeated statements about creating ties and enticing voters onto Stick and so on. It's possible EoC pressure forced Elims to make suboptimal choices, and that they really badly wanted to save Mat (stability and weirdness of the Stick train?), but...I don't know. My personal take is that the correct answer to an obvious trap is to not take it, especially while there's uncertainty surrounding the flip. If there are Elims, I'm currently looking at Tani, though Thaid's jumping made me feel eh. Not confident enough of reading Araris or Aman at this juncture, though I've listed my current reads.
   
• Relative stability of the Stick train lasted until Ash pointed that out, and Araris flagged Tani. Tani's movement is IMO therefore of interest. Surprising if/that E!Karn let himself get talked onto Mat as I generally feel given the volume of the thread, it's not exactly odd to just refuse to swap very late on and to claim difficulties catching up. Re-assess on Mat flip I suppose.
   
• If negative Devotary and Mat credences, note that Stick train has a claimed neutral alongside at least two Elims (situation obviously changes if positive Mat credences) - aware I'm sort of just bracketing Illwei here:

Quote

Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Devotary of Spontaneity

• I need more sleep and to finish my exam. Not sorry.

C. Current state of reads:

Spoiler

Partly conditional because we don't yet have a Mat flip. Not in any particular order within tiers.

Heroic:

Spoiler

I don't feel especially confident in strong Village credences of any player at this juncture.

There Will Be A Reckoning:

Spoiler

• Archer

Would always have been in this tier, but I feel that now that we know about Mat's role, and I tentatively agree with Aman that there's potential for Knighthawk Scientist to belong to either team or to be duplicated, then advancing the claim there are Village Epics doesn't feel so bold anymore. So I've downgraded him a bit, though he still inhabits this tier. Been more quiet than usual Archer, but chalking that down to being busy. (On the one hand, given all the informational restrictions on the Village in this game, I'm more inclined to read Archer's role as being Village-leaning, but am also aware we do not have full sight of the distro, Beagles bite your nose off if you attempt to roleclear, and also E!info roles are absolutely a thing.)

• Aman

Be honest, my MR38 good!Yuriel vibes have more or less vanished now  But at the same time, Aman has been active, engaged, seems to have good takes, and spurring discussion, even if I think he did narrow it a bit unnecessarily with the Mat push, but I also think that's a collective problem for everyone. Am prepared to continuously reconsider, but Aman is usually de facto Village leaning for me as a general policy. (*Re-evaluation will probably need me to actually have flips to go off, as I'm not strong with reads, so RIP me.) I'm aware I should probably further suppress my Aman credences a little, but I think that's reasonable paranoia.

Ally:

Spoiler

• Araris

As a rule, I go back and forth about where my read of Araris has landed, which is no surprise, since he's Araris. Currently here because I like his attempting to broaden discussion and existing trains, even if I'm also aware that tracks for both V and E Araris. *Re-assess upwards if Mat flips E - I have high credence that E!Araris would counsel against how Mat handled C1.

• JNV

Hesitate about effort clearing. Has some good thoughts and is engaged with the game, but part of me remembers Mage in LG82 doing the same with a nice reads list as well on coming under lynch pressure. The fact that JNV did so unprompted and without someone having to @ or vote (unlike Mage) does make me feel better about him.

• Experience

I'm aware that their post on refusing to vote on Mat even at the cost of getting lynched isn't rational for a Villager, but I feel E!Experience is better off advancing a third train or suggesting other suspects - 'I'm not going to vote on a gut village read of mine even if I get lynched' is not the most rational Villager decision (especially for gut reads) but I absolutely feel this and have gotten this way about some players/reads in some games, most notably AG2 Wyrm. I'm just having a hard time reading that blank refusal as Evil I suppose. *Commit to re-assess if in mid-game or late-game, E!Karn or V/V Mat-Stick.

• STINK

Nice seeing old STINK back in action, even if it's throwing the younger players for a loop  Not quite an effort clear, but I feel like given STINK's established playstyle, agreed he could have been more non-committal about Mat or done less work for the same net effect. Excellent Philosophy Bro level explanation of Sokrates but I also appreciated his take on C1, which I think was needed.

• Ash

Splitting the difference like a boss. Part of me notes the shift in Ash's playstyle and feels he's being a bit too loose for his Elim style, but Ash also has clearly mentioned he intends to switch up, so that should be NAI I guess. I liked his point on the rigidity of the Stick train, and it made me feel a bit better about Stick. At the same time, conversion why.

• Illwei

I liked the playstyle shift, as it's easier to understand where Illwei is coming from, but the more I look at the Stick train rigidity, I'm just not sure anymore. Illwei does feel like she's trying to solve, but I also feel she'd project that no matter her team. I feel she's asking helpful questions actively though, and approved of her pressure on Striker and Stick. Commit to re-assess I suppose.

• Stick

Entirely on the strength of the mostly static CW point. Feels like she's coming online with the analysis, at any rate, so I appreciate that. Commit to re-assess after Mat flips.

• Orlok

Is catching up, RIP to him. See Meerkat's comments in AG8 for full Orlok policy but default if watchful trust for the moment. While his playstyle is painful, appreciate ability to catch evolution of thoughts. Necessary to continuously re-evaluate.

Null:

Spoiler

• Striker

Has what seems like an intuitively plausible neutral claim. I don't like the timing as I feel it distracted from a tight EoD, and it's both apparent and fairly obvious that Striker's and the Village's priorities don't especially match up - obvious case in point is that it'd be great for us if an Elim hit him, but that's not going to happen now that he's declared. I feel as though he must require something from the Elims, or he'd have no reason to be neutral, and actually wonder if he's got some kind of SK win con but maybe that's paranoia. The fact he can only be lynched immediately skews his role very much towards being dependent on the Village IMO since Village maintains lynch control very early on, but that doesn't track with his behaviour. Anyway, I'm pretty sure something is off here, but not really interested in working that out right now with my limited bandwidth/time.

• Devotary

Still feel that the early interaction with Archer on Epics just seems a weird/counterintuitive position for an Elim to take though that's at the mercy of IKYK and Elim distro, and I liked Devo pointing out that claiming Epic was a bold claim for Archer if he were E. Agree with Orlok on base rate/prevalence issue, though note that Devo appeared to be talking about epic to regular ratio instead. Otherwise, no particular strong feelings, commit to re-assess as I don't remember ever finding E!Devo early on anytime we played apart from that one occasion via vote analysis. Commit to re-assessing on Mat's flip and on further discussion.

• Thaid

On the one hand, no reason to reveal that now if E!Thaid. Feels like a bit of an IKYK involved. Did a bit of a weird Mat-Karn dance and I feel like an Elim has no reason to be this undecisive about it, though it could be doc chaos at the end. Commit to re-assess. *If one Karn voter (however temporarily) believed to be E, I could see it being Thaid - goes on, then gets @ in doc for taking obvious bait, and then jumps off again thankfully when STINK's post provides cover for a re-eval. Would like it if Thaid did less baiting and more explicit stating of thoughts. I know it's cute when Aman does it, but at some point, you have to level with the Village too, or just confuse everyone  

• Karn

Hasn't said enough for me to properly get a grasp, but at that point, Mat's last post swung me off him for good so RIP Karn. Karn's switch to Mat felt opportunistic, but in a way that intuitively doesn't look good for E!Karn. At the same time, given Aman was clearly vote-soliciting, it's possible E!Karn also felt that staying on Archer would look worse, but that's dubious to me - not having much of an opinion on an existing train isn't the same as getting off at the last minute. Would like to hear more from Karn, I think. Archer vote was weird though, because that just felt like an outright infolynch, but whether that's an Evil move or just Karn is a big question. Karn did spend a decent chunk of the AG thinking Hael was Evil because he pinch-hit for Az, so this does feel plausibly in the same ballpark. Commit to re-assess given response. Conversion-related side-eye.

• Mint

Unclear if really lost or playing it up. Would like to hear more.

• TUA

Feels like Evil TUA tends to be more conciliatory, but I'm just having a hard time reading TUA in light of how disengaged he appears to be. Regular claim is -.- but within parameters. Obligatory side-eye at everyone who brought up conversion.

• Danex

I can't really read Danex right now, I'm not sorry.

Hint of Corruption:

Spoiler

• Szeth

Absolutely understand that Szeth is busy - all the same, this really feels like a powerful shift from the V!Szeth I played with in LG82 and is making me feel a bit eh. The lack of interest and the starting poke just don't make me feel too good about Szeth, though I could be willing to say that Szeth could be a null.

• Tani

Hasn't done enough for me to particularly have an opinion on her. Feels like the shift to Karn could've come from pushback to the Stick train and being flagged out by Araris. *Re-assess if Mat flips E - Karn vote feels like bait that the Elim team should rightfully have been wary of, though entirely possible Tani is a loose cannon Elim. Also feels like a potential reaction to Araris - feels like unlikely E/E with Araris because can't see Araris getting her to move then. (Am aware of possibility I'm starting to ascribe too much omnipotence to E!Araris, I'm blaming it on LG82.)

Lower tiers aren't really heavily populated right now - some of this is at the mercy of the fact I'm primarily a vote analyst and there's no flip yet so joy to the world, I'm having to go off the instability of reads, but life's like that. This is the current state of my thoughts at any rate.

If I've forgotten someone, it's probably because you didn't say much, so you go into Null Tier + Worry.

@Karnatheon Interested in how you were induced to swap trains.

Tani as I don't expect @Szeth_Pancakes to do much answering, as per his blue text.

And once again, I've been ninjaed so often while writing this up...

33 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I've apparently forgotten how to play this game without putting in more effort than I wanted to, and more than I enjoy.

Hi, Overcommitment Bro. Nice to meet you here

37 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

One

56

Araris

Says they can also shuffle with Kas. Asks Ashbringer who the third vote is

N/A

N/A

Keep the flirting out of thread, gentlemen .

NAI

None

 

Ah, that rare sighting of Orlok's sense of humour showing up  But you do recall PMs are default closed, right? 

P.S. @Orlok Tsubodai - I don't think Mat is known non-village, unless you're claiming a scan. It looks from what Archer said and the write-up suggests that alignments are default obscured, though I grant this could be an assumption.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Wait wat

Good luck Kas! I’ll do what I can here. That might not be much. But it’s not apathy so that’s an improvement.

Speaking of which…

Nah I’ll vote later. Yell at me if I don’t though.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

44 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Hi, Overcommitment Bro. Nice to meet you here

Always a pleasure, Kas.

46 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Ah, that rare sighting of Orlok's sense of humour showing up  But you do recall PMs are default closed, right? 

I'm not sure how I feel about my humour being rare enough to be noteworthy... I am acutely aware of the absence of PMs, though - I'm not sure I'd appreciated how much of a crutch I found them in keeping this bearable in the AG.

49 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

P.S. @Orlok Tsubodai - I don't think Mat is known non-village, unless you're claiming a scan. It looks from what Archer said and the write-up suggests that alignments are default obscured, though I grant this could be an assumption.

Delightful. Appreciate you pointing this out, though, and will re-evaluate Matrim's posts I've skipped tomorrow. I'm very much not claiming a scan, sadly. I've played 60ish games and don't believe I've ever been given one, to my ongoing disappointment.

[danex he/him]

man

i wish i was elim this game

i'm like
absolutely and completely flying under the radar rn
and it's completely by accident

how is nobody finding me sus for...anything yet

[Quivil she/her]

@Kasimir I currently have no idea what to think or do as I'm spending so much time trying to catch up after each two minutes of doing something else that I skip about half the stuff I'm trying to shove through my face.

 

Ed1t: Two things: 1) I didn't see a question and 2) I didn't say why I voted stick because I didn't have much time right then and because I was mostly actually going off of things that had already been said, probably a tunnel or two, and a sort of feeling that I didn't know how to articulate. (basically gut, but supported by evidence that I just can't say because I'm bad at words.)

Ed2t: I don't see why this is so confusing to you all. I think Mat's just neutral.

Ed3t: Sorry for the first part. I was kinda frustrated, but should have spoken more kindly anyway.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Tani

[Kasimir he/him]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Conditionally, if Mat flips V, I'd feel better about Stick.

Exhausted derp - this should read 'if Mat flips E, I'd feel better about Stick', at least prima facie, given stability.Tell [Edited to add as I skipped too fast: Telling me this might be a D1 Elim nonreactivity problem again is gonna make me :| but I recognise it's something to KIV.]

2 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I'm not sure how I feel about my humour being rare enough to be noteworthy...

Sorry  I remember your Wilsoneese responses though, and Araris fixing those up!

2 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I am acutely aware of the absence of PMs, though - I'm not sure I'd appreciated how much of a crutch I found them in keeping this bearable in the AG.

Tell me about it  Instead, random thought scratch table mode is a go!

2 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Delightful. Appreciate you pointing this out, though, and will re-evaluate Matrim's posts I've skipped tomorrow. I'm very much not claiming a scan, sadly. I've played 60ish games and don't believe I've ever been given one, to my ongoing disappointment.

If you're too far behind/too burdened and don't want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to Mat analysis, suggest waiting for C3 and/or working around it. TJ has PAFOed my question on alignment obscurement and revelation. There is a chance (or at least my personal suspicion is) that alignment flips are given about a cycle later - as mentioned briefly earlier, I feel that permanently withholding alignment knowledge is too punishing to the Village, thus suspect a delayed reveal mechanic (my thoughts would favour this), if not a decent amount of deceased-targeting alignment scanners (with some resilience/redundancy built in.) I don't see how else you can have no alignment flips and not make it actively punishing to the Village.

tldr; recognise it's a personal risk management call since Mat was such an integral part of the last cycle that yeah - but at the same time, given constraints, feel like the risk of redoing once a full flip is obtained is worth highlighting.

4 hours ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

I've apparently forgotten how to play this game without putting in more effort than I wanted to, and more than I enjoy.

Returning to this because viscerally feeling this so just wanted to express sympathy/empathy/solidarity :/ We both belong in overcommitment jail I suppose. I really need to realign it in my head as chilling/playing with my bros, because I did laugh when I read your tables, and it did remind me of why I signed up for both games, and hopefully by reorienting, feel less of that overwhelming sense of guilt/overcommitment pressure.

P.S. TJ, you made PMs default closed so you can just deal with me doing this in the thread  

P.P.S. Asked TJ if role-blocked kills appear in the write-up, and he said no, but seeking clarification to make sure my understanding is correct. And just for you conversion game junkies, he's also PAFOed whether this is a conversion game and I've expressed my immense displeasure in the form of a screaming seagull meme. Y'all welcome  

Edited to add 2: Okay, he straightforwardly clarified that roleblocked kills do not appear in the write-up as blocked and survived.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

And now the real fun begins I heckin love solving blackout puzzles. 

21 hours ago, |TJ| said:

You are the renowned Scientist of the Knighthawk. On the death of an Epic, you can harvest their cell to create a Motivator. You cannot harvest cells of Epics who have died in the previous cycles. You need to give away the Motivator created in the cycle following the death of the Epic. Beyond this cycle, the Motivator’s power decreases exponentially and cannot be used, meaning you cannot stockpile on Motivators. This does not take an action. Motivators are 1-time use items. You cannot give Motivators to the same target in consecutive cycles.

Notes:

• The renowned Scientist of the Knighthawk, not a. This suggests the role is not duplicated.
• Not an Epic, meaning there are non-Epic roles. But how many???
• A whole lot of limitations. Can only harvest cells from the most recent death. Motivators cannot be stockpiled. 1-time use. Can't be passed to the same target twice in a row.
• Mat's previous statement of "Does not make sense for an elim." Do I agree? Are the limitations too much?

We can probably reason out Mat's alignment based on this information, if anyone cares enough to try. I'd rather save that until C3 in case a delayed alignment flip doesn't happen. But I do believe this says things about the overall role distribution.

21 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Matrim's Dice (5): Experience, Ashbringer, Karnatheon, Archer, _Stick_, JNV, Thaidakar the Ghostblood
Karnatheon (2): Kasimir, Araris Valerian, Tani, Amanuensis
_Stick_ (5): Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Devotary of Spontaneity

For example, that's a lot of friggin vote manipulation.

• 2 votes lost on Mat (1 removed by Kasimir, 1 unknown).
• 2 votes lost on Karn (Kas vote replaced by Karn's, yet 2 are missing nonetheless)
• 1 vote added to Stick (currently unknown)

While Kas has claimed a rioter-esque role, I'd like to propose that not all of these manipulations are traditional.

For example, @StrikerEZ, does your role happen to give you double the vote? Is that why you felt the need to participate in an exe when you were thinking about claiming neutral anyway? I'm guessing you have an Executioner like wincon, and for some reason you thought Stick was your target (presumably for having a role). If it helps, I'm not an advocate of neutral-lynching, and would be willing to help you achieve your wincon if you can provide reliable information.

Alternatively, Illwei could have a role that doubles her voting power. She was the only Stick voter that wasn't on at EoD. If Devotary were to have a role like that, for instance, I'd bet that sudden drop in other voters would have made her drop off too, as to not give herself away (from either alignment).

Regarding Karn, he could similarly have a role that passively removes one (or half of the) vote(s) against him. Wouldn't mind testing that tbh.

21 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Actually this is a good question. What happened to the Elim kill? 

I have theories. I'll get to them later tho.

20 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I'm just going to 'fess up because I think this makes the situation even more bewildering. I'm a Rioter. I had my order as set to Riot Mat to himself and swapped to Rioting Karn to himself with the last minute vote switcheroo. 

17 hours ago, Kasimir said:

... If you're telling me bloody TJ scammed me into signing up for a conversion game, we are going to have words. Conversion games can go to Braize! 

Also, you asked me an or question. The answer is yes.

Sigh. Yes, yes, am Epic who forgot I was Epic because I filed my role mentally as Rioter. Have the feeling TJ won't let me live it down. 

Appreciate the role claim. Question.

Quote

Anyway, I’ve been debating whether or not I should do this, but I figure this is for the best. I’m a neutral Epic who has beaten their weakness and is no longer evil. I have a wincon of my own that I will keep to myself for now. In addition, my role is that I cannot be killed except through the exe. Any actions beyond the exe that target me will be randomly redirected onto another player from the team of the player who targeted me. 

Striker explicitly stated his role beat his weakness. Does yours too? Does @Archer's?

20 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Anyone out here use a Roleblock?

Honestly, if someone did, I 100% support a public claim. Given the lack of an elim kill and alignment flip, knowing someone was actively blocked would give us context we really do need. Also, good work, if true!

20 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

I just got home, I need a mo to read up on everything but it’s very late and I’m tired but at the same time I feel like I cannot go to bed without catching up first 

Hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed participating in it

20 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Why do you think e!Karn would decide to show up an hour and a half before rollover to intervene in v/v Mat/Stick when they'd previously claimed they probably wouldn't be around for rollover? It would have been so easy for e!Karn to stay out of it in that case, and if Mat/Stick are not v/v we were better off exing one of them.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The point of my voting him / encouraging others to join was never that I thought Karn was an elim. And tbh, I don't even think debating his EoD from either alignment is productive without a Mat/Stick flip.

I baited him into joining the Mat/Stick trains for info. When I saw Thaid vote him and Mat's sayonara post, I baited everyone present into joining a new Karn train for more info. It's that EoD activity I care about, not Karn's.

Like for example, Stink was debating between Mat and Karn over Stick, which could mean Stink/Stick E/E.
For another, Experience actively resisted the Karn exe, which could mean they're E/E.
For another, you kept your vote on Stick and commented on different possibilities, which isn't a post you'd have made otherwise and something I can now scrutinize to figure out your alignment better.

19 hours ago, Dannnex said:

Any chance there is no elim team? Just Vil and Neutrals? The lack of a kill is throwing me off...

For someone who didn't want to participate in the last 40 hours of the previous turn, you're suddenly invested in the lack of an elim kill. How does that throw you off? What were you on in the first place that could be thrown off?

19 hours ago, Archer said:

The side of this job no one talks is about is immediately after you vote someone off, you then have to go say heyy, would you mind answering some questions now? If you're village, @Matrim's Dice if you're allowed to selectively provide no response, could you please give no answer to the first question you would otherwise answer no to? And please answer yes to question three if you're capable of lying.

Okay, tbh, I feel like I need to understand how your role works. Do you submit questions in your GM PM, then receive answers from Mat via the GM?

19 hours ago, The Unknown Aon said:

Hejjo. I have opinions. Don't like Stick. Like Karn. Vote manip go brrrr.

Since you're my only 100% confirmed village read, can you please expand on this more? What don't you like about Stick? What do you like about Karn?

11 hours ago, Dannnex said:

man

i wish i was elim this game

i'm like
absolutely and completely flying under the radar rn
and it's completely by accident

how is nobody finding me sus for...anything yet

You must have missed my (albeit few) posts about you  Why did your opening post include "blackouts are fun!"? Why did you go inactive pretty much right after?

11 hours ago, Tani said:

@Kasimir I currently have no idea what to think or do as I'm spending so much time trying to catch up after each two minutes of doing something else that I skip about half the stuff I'm trying to shove through my face.

 

Ed1t: Two things: 1) I didn't see a question and 2) I didn't say why I voted stick because I didn't have much time right then and because I was mostly actually going off of things that had already been said, probably a tunnel or two, and a sort of feeling that I didn't know how to articulate. (basically gut, but supported by evidence that I just can't say because I'm bad at words.)

Ed2t: I don't see why this is so confusing to you all. I think Mat's just neutral.

Ed3t: Sorry for the first part. I was kinda frustrated, but should have spoken more kindly anyway.

Weird, I thought I was the only person to do the ED1T, ED2T, ED3T thing. Did I pick that up from somewhere else without knowing?

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Striker explicitly stated his role beat his weakness. Does yours too? Does @Archer's?

I can answer this, but I want to @Elandera first as I am concerned this brushes against the ruling with regard to using text of GM PMs. I grant it's a grey area since we're likely not going about explicit text, so would like to confirm with the IM first if that's alright with you. Specifically, concerned about this one:

On 2/5/2022 at 10:11 AM, Elbereth said:

• Don’t use information about the wording, coloring, etc of your GM PM to make deductions about roles or alignments. 

If she gives the green light, I'll respond with a simple binary answer or paraphrase. That good?

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

While Kas has claimed a rioter-esque role, I'd like to propose that not all of these manipulations are traditional.

FYI, this is possible but I asked TJ a rule clarification about vote manipulation interactions and his response was framed in terms of Rioter-Soother interactions so I'm not too sure about that.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I can answer this, but I want to @Elandera first as I am concerned this brushes against the ruling with regard to using text of GM PMs. I grant it's a grey area since we're likely not going about explicit text, so would like to confirm with the IM first if that's alright with you. Specifically, concerned about this one:

If she gives the green light, I'll respond with a simple binary answer or paraphrase. That good?

FYI, this is possible but I asked TJ a rule clarification about vote manipulation interactions and his response was framed in terms of Rioter-Soother interactions so I'm not too sure about that.

That's fair. I'm not exactly worried about the explicit text, just the general flavor.

Like, the fact that Striker pointed out the beating-weakness-no-longer-evil thing is either elim fake claim overcompensation or genuine, which is interesting.

Cause, like, the next question is, did all Village Epics beat their weakness too?

If not, then is it just a matter of time until they go crazy?

Basically my theory is there is a conversion mechanic in this game, but it's random chance for every Epic.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Basically my theory is there is a conversion mechanic in this game, but it's random chance for every Epic.

....

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Basically my theory is there is a conversion mechanic in this game, but it's random chance for every Epic.

.....................

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Basically my theory is there is a conversion mechanic in this game, but it's random chance for every Epic.

................................................

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Basically my theory is there is a conversion mechanic in this game, but it's random chance for every Epic.

...................................................................

Spoiler

If this happens, I'd request to be put out of my misery. I absolutely detest conversion games and getting converted and this is not making me a happy Kas right now.

(Though I suppose you can infer something from the intensity of my reaction anyway.)

[Amanuensis he/him]

I had a feeling you'd react that way

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

I had a feeling you'd react that way

>:(

Spoiler

@|TJ| >:(

[Ashbringer he/him]

Yeah, this should be fun.

At this point in the cycle a Roleblock claim would be a bit more suspect, but would still be handy. Also the signup rules have the Elims with a faction kill per cycle.

Hmmm. @|TJ|, would a hypothetically existing faction kill take up a role action slot? Or could you use both in one cycle?

Also, question about Mat’s role - would a Motivator degrade only if Mat kept it, or would it degrade if not used immediately by the recipient?

Also, why?

 

Edit:

every time I decide to make a post without quoting the context, on a new page it goes! -.-

Edited February 13, 2022 by Ashbringer

[Elandera she/her]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I can answer this, but I want to @Elandera first as I am concerned this brushes against the ruling with regard to using text of GM PMs. I grant it's a grey area since we're likely not going about explicit text, so would like to confirm with the IM first if that's alright with you. Specifically, concerned about this one:

If she gives the green light, I'll respond with a simple binary answer or paraphrase. That good?

FYI, this is possible but I asked TJ a rule clarification about vote manipulation interactions and his response was framed in terms of Rioter-Soother interactions so I'm not too sure about that.

I'll say that so long as you aren't using the specific wording of your PM, but rephrasing and paraphrasing, it's not against the rules.

 

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

>:(

  Reveal hidden contents

@|TJ| >:(

Oh yeah, what do you think the chances of your role being duplicated are? Given the nature of the game setting, I would personally expect wholly unique roles (with some overlap).

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Elandera said:

I'll say that so long as you aren't using the specific wording of your PM, but rephrasing and paraphrasing, it's not against the rules.

Got it, thanks Elan

Just now, Amanuensis said:

Oh yeah, what do you think the chances of your role being duplicated are? Given the nature of the game setting, I would personally expect wholly unique roles (with some overlap).

As you can infer from my extremely unhappy reaction, there is no mention of me having overcome my weakness and achieved inner peace/Nirvana. I am now exceedingly concerned.

My role actually has - a name. As in, a proper name. It's not something like Knighthawk Scientist which is a job description. It's an actual name. And I've not been very subtle about hinting at it as I dropped a bunch of memes about it C1 even if I didn't say anything and tried to pass myself off as a Regular at first (helped by the fact I legit forgot at some point I was an Epic and just thought of myself as a Rioter.) [Yes, I'm being a bit more circumspect here, but I think if you check the first page of C1, you'll figure the name out, as well as the theme of my ability. I don't really want to explicitly say it as I'm not sure how to paraphrase in this case without messing with the rules, but I figure pointing at the hint can't hurt.]

Also have not been told I have a weakness, much less what it is.

So duplication...I don't know. Thematically it'd be weird to have say, two Amans running around in a game, if you get what I mean. Since it's a proper name. Could there be two reskins of the same power-set? I suspect so, really. TJ's rule clarification was very specific as I asked him what happened if multiple vote manips hit the same target, and he framed his reply to me in terms of multiple Riots and Riot-Soothe interactions. (For the record - no effect, and in the latter case, Rioter still loses own vote.)

[Ashbringer he/him]

... is it Mitosis

If not, we're probably on the clear on duplications.

leaves to scour C1

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Ashbringer said:

... is it Mitosis

 

hi =)

Spoiler

“An idea is like a virus, resilient, highly contagious. The smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you.”

[The Unknown Order he/him]

32 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Since you're my only 100% confirmed village read, can you please expand on this more? What don't you like about Stick? What do you like about Karn?

Why am I 100% confirmed?

Mostly the circumstances. I would dislike Mat as well if Stick had died, but since Mat died, I only like Karn. Mat/Stick/Karn feel E/V/V or E/E/V, but that's pretty unlikely. I think the second and third votes on Karn were elims scrambling for another exe option. Your vote doesn't feel that way because it was a single vote with 4/5 vote leaders. You could be evil with two or three though, I suppose.

[Amanuensis he/him]

9 hours ago, The Unknown Aon said:

Why am I 100% confirmed?

Mostly the circumstances. I would dislike Mat as well if Stick had died, but since Mat died, I only like Karn. Mat/Stick/Karn feel E/V/V or E/E/V, but that's pretty unlikely. I think the second and third votes on Karn were elims scrambling for another exe option. Your vote doesn't feel that way because it was a single vote with 4/5 vote leaders. You could be evil with two or three though, I suppose.

It'd be kayana for an elim to make a distinction between Vanilla and Regular when you did. Not exactly a fair deduction considering I was privy to the same nomenclature from the start, but I'm also not going to deny my one absolute trust

[|TJ| he/him]

9 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

?? @|TJ| was he supposed to predict who would die?

No, he would not be able harvest Epics who had died prior to the previous cycle. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Edited to add 2: Okay, he straightforwardly clarified that roleblocked kills do not appear in the write-up as blocked and survived.

@everyone asking about possibility of role-blocked kill ^

12 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Hmmm. @|TJ|, would a hypothetically existing faction kill take up a role action slot? Or could you use both in one cycle?

It would take up an action slot yes.