Frustration's Firepower Index: Feruchemy

[Frustration he/him]

Welcome to Frustration's firepower Index, where I compare and rank the combat capabilities of Cosmere worlds and Magic systems. This thread will be focused on Feruchemy.

 

Feruchemist

Preparation: Be a koloss blooded, feruchemist. The body has room for 8 large bracers, which I recommend 2 goldminds, 2 steelminds, a pewtermind, a zincmind, and 2 nicrosilminds. They can also hold several smaller metalminds which can be surgically placed inside the body, including chromium, iron, brass, electrum, cadmium, and if possible extra gold, steel, pewter and nicrosil. Also in their possession should be, rings and earrings for the other metals. And an aluminum gun and bullets, as well as a set of grenades.

Note that the Nicrosil is used for making a perpendicularity, if the amount of investiture needed exceeds the amount that can be stored in two large metalminds with an implant switch those for other usable metals like gold, steel, pewter, zinc, and chromium.

 

Offenses: Increased strength and speed make them increadibly dangerous, especially with a gun, with zinc allowing them to almost instantly calculate trajectories. Additionally if they every get above an opponent they can tap iron to crush them, and grenades can blow up enemies.

 

Defenses: Gold allows the feruchemist to heal, and tin allows them to not feel pain, and with brass the feruchemist can become too hot to safely touch.

 

Mobility: Steel makes the feruchemist incredibly fast, storing iron allows them to safely fall from great heights, and tapping large amounts of Nicrosil allows them to cross between realms.

  Hide contents

TheFulgid

Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. 

TheFulgid

...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

No. 

TheFulgid

Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible. 

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

Stealth: Storing Nicrosil hides them from investiture detection, and storing Connection makes them harder to notice, additionally storing iron would make them lighter, allowing them to make less noise while moving, and storing brass would hide them from heat detection if that ever comes into play.

 

Awareness: Tin allows the Feruchemist to increase their senses, and Bronze allows them to stay awake and alert.

 

Additional abilities: Electrum allows the feruchemist to become more determined, and to overcome resistance. Chromium, Zinc and Copper would allow them to learn and adapt to almost any situation, making it almost impossible to outplay a prepared Feruchemist.

 

As always what did you think? Did I miss anything? And what should I work on next?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Frustration

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Atium and Connection for subterfuge

Rasdium can be used to push an atribute into another person. Ettmetal could be used to fill to dangerous levels.

[Frustration he/him]

54 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Atium and Connection for subterfuge

Atium is not currently widely avalible.

55 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Rasdium can be used to push an atribute into another person.

Can it?

Reguardless Raysium isn't widely availible.

55 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Ettmetal could be used to fill to dangerous levels.

Ettmetal and feruchemy have some interactions, but we don't know much, or how large the machinery needs to be for it to do so.

[StanLemon]

I'll do a more extensive breakdown when I get a minute, one that jumps to mind is adding Iron to offensive ability. Increasing weight would have heavier hits. Combined with Steel and a Feruchemist becomes starts talking people like a truck

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'll do a more extensive breakdown when I get a minute, one that jumps to mind is adding Iron to offensive ability. Increasing weight would have heavier hits. Combined with Steel and a Feruchemist becomes starts talking people like a truck

One of the beta readers pointed that out, the thing is this WoB says that iron feruchemy doesn't give more force to attacks

  Hide contents

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

Thanks though.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

One of the beta readers pointed that out, the thing is this WoB says that iron feruchemy doesn't give more force to attacks

I found english version of HoA (ch 78), just so I can quote this:

Quote

He stopped filling his ironmind, regaining normal weight, then reached with a blurring speed to pick up the hammer of the fallen soldier. He didn't have enhanced strength, but he had speed. He slammed the hammer down on a kandra shoulder, growing heavier to add to the momentum of his blow. The kandra's bones shattered.

This WoB still confuses me.

[Frustration he/him]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I found english version of HoA (ch 78), just so I can quote this:

That impressive, good job.

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This WoB still confuses me.

He has said that Sazed doesn't fully understand Iron Feruchemy in that scenario

Spoiler

Questioner

I remember in, I believe it was Hero of the Ages, when Sazed was helping TenSoon escape. When he had fallen on the guard, he said that, by increasing his weight he also increases his density so he doesn't <hurt> himself. Then in The Alloy of Law, it also says that when Wax increases his weight he said that he didn't.

Brandon Sanderson

So, Sazed is just making a mistake. He's mistaking the fact when he increases his weight his musculature changes to be able to handle the new weight and that was what he was talking about. Strength and muscle tone and things like that. I might have just gotten it wrong in the original one [scene], I can't honestly remember, but this is what we kinda decided it needs to be. 

 

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[StanLemon]

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That impressive, good job.

He has said that Sazed doesn't fully understand Iron Feruchemy in that scenario

  Hide contents

Questioner

I remember in, I believe it was Hero of the Ages, when Sazed was helping TenSoon escape. When he had fallen on the guard, he said that, by increasing his weight he also increases his density so he doesn't <hurt> himself. Then in The Alloy of Law, it also says that when Wax increases his weight he said that he didn't.

Brandon Sanderson

So, Sazed is just making a mistake. He's mistaking the fact when he increases his weight his musculature changes to be able to handle the new weight and that was what he was talking about. Strength and muscle tone and things like that. I might have just gotten it wrong in the original one [scene], I can't honestly remember, but this is what we kinda decided it needs to be. 

 

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

He's talking about density though in that WoB. His comments about not transferring force is would invalidate the whole point of increasing weight. It would have to arbitrarily not transfer when a Feruchemist hits someone, yet transfer in literally every other aspect. As that WoB is contradicted both by logic and Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages, I think it's safe to completely ignore that sentence from that WoB

Edited January 13, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

He's talking about density though in that WoB. His comments about not transferring force is would invalidate the whole point of increasing weight. It would have to arbitrarily not transfer when a Feruchemist hits someone, yet transfer in literally every other aspect. As that WoB is contradicted both by logic and Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages, I think it's safe to completely ignore that sentence 

Iron Feruchemy makes no sense scientifically

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Metalminds: if you store weight, how does that work, do you decrease your mass or...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, storing weight actually plays with your mass, because if you look at how we do the physics of it… This one is really screwy, because we are changing mass and playing with it. You watch, like with Wax decreases his weight while he's in motion he'll speed up, and if he increases it, he'll slow down. The conservation of momentum and things like that, but we'll doing really weird stuff. It's like, how can you store your mass… Well, in the magic system it works, but it’s one of the weirdest things we do. *pauses to sign book* We kind of play loose and free with the physics sometimes. Like the example that I often use is Wayne doing a speed bubble, the light that is trapped in the speed bubble...like if he turns on a flashlight would actually radiate because of the redshift, and you could just kill everybody by flashing that. So, we make the speed bubbles not cause a redshift for that reason. We kind of work with what is good storytelling first, and then work the physics around it, but we have to put in all these little breaks and things like that in there regularity in order to actually have the story.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Questioner

When Wax changes his weight, is that weight or mass?

Brandon Sanderson

He is actually changing his mass, in a weird...It's kind of halfway in between, is really what it is. But it follows the laws of conservation of momentum, so it's not just weight. It's timidly a half step inbetween.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

So the logic point doesn't hold up,

and WoB is clear that the WoA and HoA are misunderstandings of characters, or errors on Brandon's part.

[StanLemon]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

and WoB is clear that the WoA and HoA are misunderstandings of characters, or errors on Brandon's part.

That's ridiculous. There are two scenes where there the arms are described as heavier

Quote

Steel stored physical speed. Sazed zipped across the room, air rushing in his ears as he shot past the open doorway. He snatched the lamp out of the air, then tapped iron hard—increasing his weight manyfold—and tapped pewter to give himself massive strength. Marsh didn’t have time to react. He was now Pulling on a lamp held in Sazed’s inhumanly strong, inhumanly heavy, hand. Again, Marsh was yanked by his own Allomancy. The Pull threw him across the room, directly toward Sazed. Sazed turned, slamming the lamp into Marsh’s face. The metal bent in his hand, and the force threw Marsh backward. The Inquisitor hit the marble wall, a spray of blood misting in the air. As Marsh slumped to the ground, Sazed could see that he’d driven one of the eye-spikes back into the front of the skull, crushing the bone around the socket.

Yes there are misunderstandings like Sazed's belief that he gets denser, which is what the WoB was talking about. But your earlier WoB is directly contradicted by the books. Books trump WoB.

Otherwise would be as bad as D&D logic and would immediately are it the single most nonsensical thing in Feruchemy

Edited January 13, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

That's ridiculous. There are two scenes where there the arms are described as heavier

Yes there are misunderstandings like Sazed's belief that he gets denser, which is what the WoB was talking about.

So if there is no change in density, why do the force of attacks change?

Also, Brandon points out that it was the Pewter specifically that made Sazed strong

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh Vs. Sazed

But first we have the Marsh Sazed battle. I really like this scene, since I get to do something very new with it. Do you remember when I promised you that you'd see some cool interactions between Allomancy and Feruchemy?

I realized almost immediately, when designing Feruchemy, that I could do some very fun things with it mixing with Allomancy. With how much that Mistborn depend on their Steelpushes and Ironpulls, a person who can change his weight would have an enormous advantage. Everyone always says that Allomancy is the better combat skill, but that's just because the resource it uses–metal–is far more plentiful than the resource Feruchemy uses. Put the two into a battle together with enough power to spare, and the Feruchemist will almost always win.

At the end of this, Ham gets to do something. Makes me glad that I wrote him back into the story after forgetting about him. . . .

Oh, and that blow to the head was no slight blow–Sazed's actually wrong. That strike will lay Marsh out for some time. Remember what Ham said about two pewter burners canceling each other out? Well, you just had a very strong soldier flaring pewter hit a man who was simply burning it in the back of the head with a stick hard enough to break it. Marsh is out cold.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (March 19, 2009)

 

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But your earlier WoB is directly contradicted by the books. Books trump WoB

Unless new books agree with those WoB's which they do.

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So if there is no change in density, why do the force of attacks change?

Because F=MA, by tapping Iron he's making himself heavier, Brandon has consistently said that Iron affectsass, the very WoB you provided is one of them. Increasing mass translates to increasing force

Quote

Also, Brandon points out that it was the Pewter specifically that made Sazed strong

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh Vs. Sazed

But first we have the Marsh Sazed battle. I really like this scene, since I get to do something very new with it. Do you remember when I promised you that you'd see some cool interactions between Allomancy and Feruchemy?

I realized almost immediately, when designing Feruchemy, that I could do some very fun things with it mixing with Allomancy. With how much that Mistborn depend on their Steelpushes and Ironpulls, a person who can change his weight would have an enormous advantage. Everyone always says that Allomancy is the better combat skill, but that's just because the resource it uses–metal–is far more plentiful than the resource Feruchemy uses. Put the two into a battle together with enough power to spare, and the Feruchemist will almost always win.

At the end of this, Ham gets to do something. Makes me glad that I wrote him back into the story after forgetting about him. . . .

Oh, and that blow to the head was no slight blow–Sazed's actually wrong. That strike will lay Marsh out for some time. Remember what Ham said about two pewter burners canceling each other out? Well, you just had a very strong soldier flaring pewter hit a man who was simply burning it in the back of the head with a stick hard enough to break it. Marsh is out cold.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (March 19, 2009)

No he didn't, he simply said that the blow was stronger than Sazed thought and that it was comparable to two Peterarms clashing 

Quote

Unless new books agree with those WoB's which they do.

Except they don't. @alder24 already gave the HoA scene contradicted which is newer than the WoA scene and he clearly hit harder in that scene because of the increased weight and there is never a scene in Wax and Wayne that agrees with Brandon's punch comment

Edited January 13, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Except they don't. @alder24 already gave the HoA scene contradicted which is newer than the WoA scene and he clearly hit harder in that scene because of the increased weight. and there is never a scene in Wax and Wayne that agrees with Brandon's punch comment

I was referring to era 2, where Wax, despite fighting several pewter burners, never once taps iron to beat them physically.

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was referring to era 2, where Wax, despite fighting several pewter burners, never once taps iron to beat them physically.

That proves nothing. Just because he doesn't,  doesn't mean he couldn't. Wax has on many occasions not used his powers efficiently. He had to be reminded at on one occasion that he didn't need to have a gun to launch a bullet, so him not using it to increase the strength of his punches is not proof that he couldn't 

Edited January 13, 2023 by StanLemon

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

and WoB is clear that the WoA and HoA are misunderstandings of characters, or errors on Brandon's part.

But if F-Iron didn't affect force at all, then falling on somebody would cause no damage, as this is also force. Yet it worked so many times. 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was referring to era 2, where Wax, despite fighting several pewter burners, never once taps iron to beat them physically.

I still have a weird feeling there was a scene when Wax did it. Don't know where. Also Wax rarely have to fist fight.

[StanLemon]

Just now, alder24 said:

But if F-Iron didn't affect force at all, then falling on somebody would cause no damage, as this is also force. Yet it worked so many times. 

Exactly, to work except when hitting someone would be the most arbitrary thing in Feruchemy 

Just now, alder24 said:

I still have a weird feeling there was a scene when Wax did it. Don't know where. Also Wax rarely have to fist fight.

The only scene I can think of maybe being his tussle with Edwarn in BoM, though I haven't read AoL in a while so maybe in a fight with Miles

[Frustration he/him]

20 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

That proves nothing. Just because he doesn't,  doesn't mean he couldn't. Wax has on many occasions not used his powers efficiently. He had to be reminded at on one occasion that he didn't need to have a gun to launch a bullet, so him not using it to increase the strength of his punches is not proof that he couldn't 

Um, you mean when Lessie was yelling incoherently at him, saying "You don't need a gun!" despite guns being better weapons in every possible way.

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But if F-Iron didn't affect force at all, then falling on somebody would cause no damage, as this is also force. Yet it worked so many times.

15 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Exactly, to work except when hitting someone would be the most arbitrary thing in Feruchemy 

It would be random, it does not make sense, Brandon is aware of that, but he made the power and then edited out anything too overpowered.

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Metalminds: if you store weight, how does that work, do you decrease your mass or...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, storing weight actually plays with your mass, because if you look at how we do the physics of it… This one is really screwy, because we are changing mass and playing with it. You watch, like with Wax decreases his weight while he's in motion he'll speed up, and if he increases it, he'll slow down. The conservation of momentum and things like that, but we'll doing really weird stuff. It's like, how can you store your mass… Well, in the magic system it works, but it’s one of the weirdest things we do. *pauses to sign book* We kind of play loose and free with the physics sometimes. Like the example that I often use is Wayne doing a speed bubble, the light that is trapped in the speed bubble...like if he turns on a flashlight would actually radiate because of the redshift, and you could just kill everybody by flashing that. So, we make the speed bubbles not cause a redshift for that reason. We kind of work with what is good storytelling first, and then work the physics around it, but we have to put in all these little breaks and things like that in there regularity in order to actually have the story.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I still have a weird feeling there was a scene when Wax did it. Don't know where. Also Wax rarely have to fist fight.

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The only scene I can think of maybe being his tussle with Edwarn in BoM, though I haven't read AoL in a while so maybe in a fight with Miles

BoM when he's fighting the a-steel, f-pewter twinborn, and is getting completely boddied.

[StanLemon]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Um, you mean when Lessie was yelling incoherently at him, saying "You don't need a gun!" despite guns being better weapons in every possible way.

No, I mean when he has a bullet and complains about not having a gun before having to pause and be reminded he doesn't need one

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It would be random, it does not make sense, Brandon is aware of that, but he made the power and then edited out anything too overpowered.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So, Metalminds: if you store weight, how does that work, do you decrease your mass or...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, storing weight actually plays with your mass, because if you look at how we do the physics of it… This one is really screwy, because we are changing mass and playing with it. You watch, like with Wax decreases his weight while he's in motion he'll speed up, and if he increases it, he'll slow down. The conservation of momentum and things like that, but we'll doing really weird stuff. It's like, how can you store your mass… Well, in the magic system it works, but it’s one of the weirdest things we do. *pauses to sign book* We kind of play loose and free with the physics sometimes. Like the example that I often use is Wayne doing a speed bubble, the light that is trapped in the speed bubble...like if he turns on a flashlight would actually radiate because of the redshift, and you could just kill everybody by flashing that. So, we make the speed bubbles not cause a redshift for that reason. We kind of work with what is good storytelling first, and then work the physics around it, but we have to put in all these little breaks and things like that in there regularity in order to actually have the story.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Doesn't change the fact that his WoB is still directly contradicted by the books, and until he writes a retcon, the books take priority

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

BoM when he's fighting the a-steel, f-pewter twinborn, and is getting completely boddied.

He didn't have his Ironminds during that scene

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

No, I mean when he has a bullet and complains about not having a gun before having to pause and be reminded he doesn't need one

That feels more like a comedy line to be honest.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Doesn't change the fact that his WoB is still directly contradicted by the books, and until he writes a retcon, the books take priority

By WoB the books are wrong on that point, one of the few situations where WoB's can take priority.

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

He didn't have his Ironminds during that scene

Did he not?

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That feels more like a comedy line to be honest.

Probably was, but it goes to show that he doesn't make the most use of his abilities. It's a consistent trait of his. Wax mostly thinks about his Feruchemy in relation to its use with his Allomancy. The only time in the books he even tries to use it to his advantage outside of Steelpushes is at the end of BoM

Quote

By WoB the books are wrong on that point, one of the few situations where WoB's can take priority.

And your justification for this is? The books make much more sense than a single WoB in regards to weight and its implications for its effects on forces

Quote

Did he not?

No, he left them in his room

Edited January 13, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

No, he left them in his room

Nope, I just checked, he used them at the very start of the fight when the train cars got disconected. You're thinking of the one in the villiage.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

And your justification for this is? The books make much more sense that a single WoB in regards to weight and it's implications for how it affects force.

It's Brandon's universe and it behaves how he wants it to.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

Nope, I just checked, he used them at the very start of the fight when the train cars got disconected. You're thinking of the one in the villiage.

What? Forch is the A-Steel F-Pewter Twinborn and he doesn't have his Ironminds in that scene. Are you talking about the Coinshot on the train?

Just now, Frustration said:

It's Brandon's universe and it behaves how he wants it to.

While that's true, he's said that books trump WoB. So until he retcons it in the book, weight increases the force of blows.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

What? Forch is the A-Steel F-Pewter Twinborn and he doesn't have his Ironminds in that scene. Are you talking about the Coinshot on the train?

Yes.

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

While that's true, he's said that books trump WoB. So until he retcons it in the book, weight increases the force of blows.

The WoB literally says that the books are wrong, so no, in this case WoB's do trump books.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

Yes.

He was just a particularly muscular Coinshot, and as I've established already, Wax overlooks uses of his abilities.

Just now, Frustration said:

The WoB literally says that the books are wrong, so no, in this case WoB's do trump books.

The WoB that you are referring to says Sazed was wrong about density increase. Sazed thinks that it's an increase in density that let's him handle his new weight and Brandon says that part is wrong. The WoB about the increased force of hits though, that would still be trumped by the books. 

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

The WoB that you are referring to says Sazed was wrong about density increase. Sazed thinks that it's an increase in density that let's him handle his new weight and Brandon says that part is wrong. The WoB about the increased force of hits though, that would still be trumped by the books. 

And if there is no increase in density there is no increase in force, and thus the hits are entirely, normal.