Another look at Trellium Hemalurgy's mechanics

[Trusk'our he/him]

Through my re-read of TLM, I noticed a few things. One of which was that Gave Entrone was a high-ranking Set member (at least he seems to be), and seemed to have access to Allomantic pewter, Feuchemical gold, and because of the special lock in his house it seems likely that he also has both Allomantic steel and iron.

He has four powers granted by Hemalurgy and is hit by an enormous wave of Emotional Allomancy fueled by purified Dor, but isn't controlled by the Allomancer.

This means that Trellium Hemalurgy isn't just a "smokescreen" from Shards, or a severing of Connection to the Shard (removing the "bridge" between the Hemalurgist and the Shard in question) that prevents Shards from controlling the Hemalurgist (as I had previously thought), but that it is a protection that no one can breech to control them (with the exception of Autonomy, likely because it is her Investiture protecting the Hemalurgist, and therefore her control isn't considered a "hostile Investiture").

I believe that @alder24 originally came up with the idea on another thread talking about Trellium Hemalurgy's mechanics about how Trellium Hemalurgy protected Hemalurgists from being controlled by "filling" the cracks in their Spiritweb made by the Hemalurgic spikes with Autonomy's.

I now believe this to be the case. Autonomy's Investiture repels other sources of Investiture, which is probably why even Shards and hyper-powered Allomancers cannot control Hemalurgists pierced with four or more spikes so long as they are also pierced by a Trellium spike. It isn't a merely a matter of Connection to the Shard, but a filling of the cracks in the Spiritweb with an Investiture that repulses other sources of Investiture seeking to get inside (it should be noted that a Shard would still need sufficient Connection to a Hemalurgist to control them- . i.e., Odium couldn't just take over someone sufficiently pierced by Hemalurgy who visited Roshar- but Trellium's method works differently all together).

Which is even more interesting than what I thought before, since the strength of Investiture held within a Trellium spike and a Shard seeking to control the Hemalurgist clearly isn't even remotely equal. But somehow, the strength of the being trying to control the Hemalurgist doesn't matter at all when compared to what a Trellium spike's effects, suggesting that it isn't brute force shielding the Hemalurgist's soul by repelling other sources of Investiture, but an actual fiddling with the mechanics that would leave a being susceptible to being controlled.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Trusk'our
Sorry, I saw some linguistic errors I had made in my excitement and felt the need to correct them.

[therunner he/him]

Interesting theory, but I have one main counterpoint: Bleeder. She had Trellium spike, but was taken over and controlled by Harmony when additional spike was introduced.
Argument could be made that Kandra behave differently.

Additionally, as far as we know, outside of aluminum no Investiture effect in Cosmere is inviolable. Invested effects can be overpowered, including Shard effects (e.g. Nightblood killing Vessel).

Finally, as to why Entrone was not controlled by Allomancer, Intent. If the Allomancer did not intent to control him (and they most likely did not), then they would not even if it was possible.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:54 PM, therunner said:

Interesting theory, but I have one main counterpoint: Bleeder. She had Trellium spike, but was taken over and controlled by Harmony when additional spike was introduced.
Argument could be made that Kandra behave differently.

A fair argument.

Perhaps Trellium spikes seal up some cracks in the Spiritweb, but not all of them? That would mean that having enough spikes (or being a Kandra, as they are more vulnerable to begin with) would still leave you open to direct control.

On 3/28/2023 at 2:54 PM, therunner said:

Additionally, as far as we know, outside of aluminum no Investiture effect in Cosmere is inviolable. Invested effects can be overpowered, including Shard effects (e.g. Nightblood killing Vessel).

True, but from what we've seen so far no one can forcefully control someone else unless the Spiritweb of the person who is having influence exerted on them is cracked open wide enough. Otherwise, Ruin would have been able to control a lot more people, seeing as how he had the entire weight of a Shard behind him and had Connection to them.

This means that if Trellium does work by sealing the Spiritweb, it cuts off a fundamental requirement for outside influences seeking to control the Hemalurgist; it won't matter how powerful the individual trying to take them over is, they simply won't be able to wriggle enough Investiture into the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb to exert the necessary influence to control them.

On 3/28/2023 at 2:54 PM, therunner said:

Finally, as to why Entrone was not controlled by Allomancer, Intent. If the Allomancer did not intent to control him (and they most likely did not), then they would not even if it was possible.

That could be the case. I had not considered Intent being necessary to control a Hemalurgist before, but that does make sense based on Cosmere mechanics.

If Trellium doesn't end up working the way I think it does, I think that this explanation would be sufficient to explain why Entrone wasn't controlled by that one Allomancer (sorry, I can't remember her name).

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

A fair argument.

Perhaps Trellium spikes seal up some cracks in the Spiritweb, but not all of them? That would mean that having enough spikes (or being a Kandra, as they are more vulnerable to begin with) would still leave you open to direct control.

Perhaps, could be an option.
Or the nature of being Kandra and being tied closely to Hemalurgy renders them more susceptible?

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True, but from what we've seen so far no one can forcefully control someone else unless the Spiritweb of the person who is having influence exerted on them is cracked open wide enough. Otherwise, Ruin would have been able to control a lot more people, seeing as how he had the entire weight of a Shard behind him and had Connection to them.

Yes, but not all Connection is equal, see e.g. Kel in SH, he was much more Connected to Ruin then to Preservation. So there is variation even among Scadrians.
I think to take control/influence you need more than just regular Connection, it must be deeper or at least very encompassing.

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This means that if Trellium does work by sealing the Spiritweb, it cuts off a fundamental requirement for outside influences seeking to control the Hemalurgist; it won't matter how powerful the individual trying to take them over is, they simply won't be able to wriggle enough Investiture into the Hemalurgist's Spiritweb to exert the necessary influence to control them.

But it would leave them open to control by Autonomy no?
Since it is Autonomies Investiture in the spiritweb.

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That could be the case. I had not considered Intent being necessary to control a Hemalurgist before, but that does make sense based on Cosmere mechanics.

From what we see in Era 1, Intent is absolutely necessary when trying to control Hemalurgic construct, so it would be the same for the controlling Hemalurgist.

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If Trellium doesn't end up working the way I think it does, I think that this explanation would be sufficient to explain why Entrone wasn't controlled by that one Allomancer (sorry, I can't remember her name).

I think I do agree with you that Trellium does grant protection, but I would say that instead of filling in the cracks, it is just repulsive to other Investiture, just like it does as metal.
So it could be overpowered, however it would be more difficult, or it would shift the threshold required for Shard to take over.

Someone should ask Brandon, or tell him to release more books quickly

Edited April 5, 2023 by therunner