Precog: stormlight and chromium

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I relistened to the arena scene from WoR today for the fun of it.  

Kaladin talks about dancing around the shardbearers seemingly knowing instinctively where they would strike before they did it... and then his stormlight ran out.  

Is this perhaps a small taste of the types of precog that chromium could grant?  

I like the illustration of what could be fortune used in combat.  I hate that it is yet another metallic art that can get grouped up in the "stormlight does it all" package.  

 

That said I don't think that stormlight precog can touch true atium and future sight.  I don't know that that level of precog will be anywhere near what a true luckomancer could pull off with chromium. But it is cool to see on screen the spidey-sense.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I relistened to the arena scene from WoR today for the fun of it.  

Kaladin talks about dancing around the shardbearers seemingly knowing instinctively where they would strike before they did it... and then his stormlight ran out.  

Is this perhaps a small taste of the types of precog that chromium could grant?  

I like the illustration of what could be fortune used in combat.  I hate that it is yet another metallic art that can get grouped up in the "stormlight does it all" package.  

An interesting conclusion. I too found it strange that Kaladin somehow "feels" where weapons will land before they do, though the explanation of Fortune would go a long way to fill that gap.

I very well think that this could be a taste of what a Spinner Ferring could do, though they would likely have a greater control and awareness of what they are doing, plus they can choose to tap at an accelerated rate to boost its effectiveness.

As for the frustration of "stormlight does everything" concept, I kind of agree; Radiants often seem to have a number of abilities that just happen to let them do whatever is necessary at the time. The Metallic Arts do not do this, and I feel that reading that is more interesting, as it forces the characters to be more creative with their more limited resources.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That said I don't think that stormlight precog can touch true atium and future sight.  I don't know that that level of precog will be anywhere near what a true luckomancer could pull off with chromium. But it is cool to see on screen the spidey-sense.  

I agree. Kaladin's Fortune is similar to Stormlight enhanced strength; Stormlight does increase it, but it's a general benefit, not something that can be pushed to extremes.

As a side note, in WoR Kaladin has trouble using his spear when he is struggling with his oath. I believe that this is because as a Surgebinder he has some kind of enhanced Fortune, which naturally boosts his martial skill and intuition. When his Bond with Syl weakens, so does his access to that extra Fortune. This supports the idea that Radiants such as Kaladin have a Fortune advantage.

Other Orders of Radiants may have different ways that their Fortune compliments their skills, which would also explain Shallan's ability to draw almost inhumanly well.

All in all, this is a very good catch @Tamriel Wolfsbaine. Very interesting insights in the elusive nature of Fortune.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I relistened to the arena scene from WoR today for the fun of it.  

Kaladin talks about dancing around the shardbearers seemingly knowing instinctively where they would strike before they did it... and then his stormlight ran out.  

Is this perhaps a small taste of the types of precog that chromium could grant? 

 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

An interesting conclusion. I too found it strange that Kaladin somehow "feels" where weapons will land before they do, though the explanation of Fortune would go a long way to fill that gap.

Did you read WoK Prime? Because there is possible explanation for this hidden there. WoK Prime spoilers
 

Spoiler

In WoK Prime, Windrunners of Epellion Knights had 'passive' ability to perceive and act on air currents. This allowed them to react to strikes, parries, defenses far faster than usual, and they could use wind to enhance the speed of their movement (though that consumed emeralds I think).

I read what Kaladin did in WoR to be similar ability, though far less pronounced. It is possible that with additional training it could be more reliable (since Kaladin shows it only there and at no other point).

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Did you read WoK Prime? Because there is possible explanation for this hidden there. WoK Prime spoilers

 

Spoiler

You propose that it is something more similar to what Spook did with his Savantism? Feeling the air and reacting to it rather than Fortune? That's seems like a better explanation for me. More natural for Windrunners. 

 

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I agree. Kaladin's Fortune is similar to Stormlight enhanced strength; Stormlight does increase it, but it's a general benefit, not something that can be pushed to extremes.

As a side note, in WoR Kaladin has trouble using his spear when he is struggling with his oath. I believe that this is because as a Surgebinder he has some kind of enhanced Fortune, which naturally boosts his martial skill and intuition. When his Bond with Syl weakens, so does his access to that extra Fortune. This supports the idea that Radiants such as Kaladin have a Fortune advantage.

Other Orders of Radiants may have different ways that their Fortune compliments their skills, which would also explain Shallan's ability to draw almost inhumanly well.

You could argue that's not Fortune, that's Radiants being more invested, drawing them closer to the Spiritual Realm which enhances their abilities even more. But can be Fortune.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Shallan's drawing abilities. Is that related to Pattern's bond to her like Kaladin's spear with Syl, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Her memorization abilities are supernaturally enhanced, and they aid her drawing.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

Still good one @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, this can be Fortune and I like the idea of how Fortune would work in combat situations.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

 

Did you read WoK Prime? Because there is possible explanation for this hidden there. WoK Prime spoilers
 

  Hide contents

In WoK Prime, Windrunners of Epellion Knights had 'passive' ability to perceive and act on air currents. This allowed them to react to strikes, parries, defenses far faster than usual, and they could use wind to enhance the speed of their movement (though that consumed emeralds I think).

I read what Kaladin did in WoR to be similar ability, though far less pronounced. It is possible that with additional training it could be more reliable (since Kaladin shows it only there and at no other point).

 

I really like this more.  I would much rather this be a surge thing specific to windrunners than yet another passive ability slapped onto stormlight.  

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I really like this more.  I would much rather this be a surge thing specific to windrunners than yet another passive ability slapped onto stormlight.  

 

I still think it might be an aspect of Fortune, because we've seen above-average skillsets be something that Radiants have;

Windrunners like Kaladin Kinesthetic-combat related Fortune and Lightweavers have artistic skill Fortune. I think that it's very possible that the reason Skybreakers are so good at telling the guilty from the innocent may be because they have Fortune that aids them.

It also may be that the reason Edgedancers have such good communication skills is because of their Fortune rather than their Resonance (or perhaps their Resonance boosts their Fortune? I mean, Wayne seemed pretty lucky, so perhaps his particular Resonance boosted his Fortune).

What's interesting, if this turns out to be true, is that Fortune is directed along specific routs; not every Radiant Order has Fortune to be a great spearman and not every Order has Fortune to boost their ability to draw and paint. This also would help tell us what Hemalurgic chromium does, since it (might) steal destiny- Fortune that is shaped along a specific rout.

[Duxredux he/him]

So... at first glance my reaction to Kaladin as precog was pointing out that the Knights Radiant, spren and Roshar in general really don't trust future sight. This is reiterated time and again, that seeing or even predicting the future is of Odium, and why Renarin's abilities are so troubling. I had assumed Kaladin's fight to be a high sensitivity to the air currents and pressure around him, maybe even something to with Syl's bond to him and her affinity to wind that gave him additional spatial awareness, maybe even the winds deflecting or altering his opponents' attacks. Actually, that match reminded me of some of Spook's fights and his ability to use air pressure to detect attacks.

Except... there are cases here and there of Radiants, even without Enlightened spren foreseeing the future. If this is drawing on Fortune, I think there may need to be a layer to figure out why Radiants can do that now when it seems they could not before, unless it was always an ability that got surpressed.

[Heilven he/him]

42 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

So... at first glance my reaction to Kaladin as precog was pointing out that the Knights Radiant, spren and Roshar in general really don't trust future sight. This is reiterated time and again, that seeing or even predicting the future is of Odium, and why Renarin's abilities are so troubling. I had assumed Kaladin's fight to be a high sensitivity to the air currents and pressure around him, maybe even something to with Syl's bond to him and her affinity to wind that gave him additional spatial awareness, maybe even the winds deflecting or altering his opponents' attacks. Actually, that match reminded me of some of Spook's fights and his ability to use air pressure to detect attacks.

Except... there are cases here and there of Radiants, even without Enlightened spren foreseeing the future. If this is drawing on Fortune, I think there may need to be a layer to figure out why Radiants can do that now when it seems they could not before, unless it was always an ability that got surpressed.

Gotta agree with you here. I don't think it's fortune, rather that it's a sort of heightened "battle sense". Honestly I don't think there's too much of a difference, seeing as how future sense in the cosmere is essentially laplace's demon / Dune spice precog. But where Renarin, Cultivation, Odium, and Teravangian all are able to predict the future by having extensive knowledge of the actions of everyone around them, normal radiants likely get the benefits of just an enhanced mind. You can easily predict where someone will swing just by looking at their muscles and momentum. I truly think it's just that in the case of radiants. It could be an effect of adhesion, connecting you to your fighters and being able to know their future somewhat (perhaps like nalatium?) but it's obviously not a massive power.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:22 AM, Trusk'our said:

I still think it might be an aspect of Fortune, because we've seen above-average skillsets be something that Radiants have;

Windrunners like Kaladin Kinesthetic-combat related Fortune and Lightweavers have artistic skill Fortune. I think that it's very possible that the reason Skybreakers are so good at telling the guilty from the innocent may be because they have Fortune that aids them.

It also may be that the reason Edgedancers have such good communication skills is because of their Fortune rather than their Resonance (or perhaps their Resonance boosts their Fortune? I mean, Wayne seemed pretty lucky, so perhaps his particular Resonance boosted his Fortune).

What's interesting, if this turns out to be true, is that Fortune is directed along specific routs; not every Radiant Order has Fortune to be a great spearman and not every Order has Fortune to boost their ability to draw and paint. This also would help tell us what Hemalurgic chromium does, since it (might) steal destiny- Fortune that is shaped along a specific rout.

While it hurts me to think stormlight adds F chromium to its list... 

I have to say I think this is a compelling argument.  I would imagine people with a large amount of breaths would have similar precog effects... we see it manifest largely in the returned with their version of future sight.  I really want to reread the warbreaker fights and see if there is any indication of this.  

A part of me would say that awakened objects work on some sort of similar principles but how does an inanimate object have precog at all?  The investiture itself caused the cloak to catch an arrow shot at vivennas back. She didn't have to put any thought into it.  The cloak couldn't see the cloak couldn't know.  The investiture itself allowed it all to happen. There was no feeling the wind currents change.  There way no spiritual sight from a cloaks pov.  But there is so much investiture there that it was able to act and do what needed to be done with no current thought from vivenna.  

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:44 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I really like this more.  I would much rather this be a surge thing specific to windrunners than yet another passive ability slapped onto stormlight.  

 

It could be an air pressure thing; Spook in HoA says his Tin Savant senses (including feeling air pressure from incoming attacks) act almost like atium.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

While it hurts me to think stormlight adds F chromium to its list... 

I have to say I think this is a compelling argument.  I would imagine people with a large amount of breaths would have similar precog effects... we see it manifest largely in the returned with their version of future sight.  I really want to reread the warbreaker fights and see if there is any indication of this.  

I think that there would be some extra potential for precognitive abilities manifesting in Awakeners; they are closer to the Spritual Realm, so having a better ability to read it would make sense.

I especially think that if they had another way to see into the SR (Allomantic electrum or possibly Feruchemical chromium) that having access to a Heightening of sufficient power on top of that might make their future sight more effective, as the power has to do less work to access to the SR.

Also, thank you for complimenting my argument, I appreciate it 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A part of me would say that awakened objects work on some sort of similar principles but how does an inanimate object have precog at all?  The investiture itself caused the cloak to catch an arrow shot at vivennas back. She didn't have to put any thought into it.  The cloak couldn't see the cloak couldn't know.  The investiture itself allowed it all to happen. There was no feeling the wind currents change.  There way no spiritual sight from a cloaks pov.  But there is so much investiture there that it was able to act and do what needed to be done with no current thought from vivenna.  

It is worth mentioning that Awakened objects "see" in a comparable fashion to Steel Inquisitors. That isn't to say that they don't have access to seeing the SR in some way, only that there is another explanation for how they can sense the world around them and react to it.

Quote

JordanCon 2016 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

In Awakening an object when you give it the sort of Command like, go get the keys, or something. How does that object perceive the world around it? Since it doesn't have standard human senses, how does it see? How does it touch?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not--

Moderator

Repeat the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh… go ahead.

Moderator

The question was, how do Awakened objects actually perceive the world.

Brandon Sanderson

…The closest correlation you have to this is how Inquisitors see.

Questioner

Okay, following up on that say, someone who has-- say someone with bronze who-- a bronze Misting managed to somehow get access to Breath and Awaken would he then be able to tell that object "Hey I sense this Allomancer over there, can you find it".

Brandon Sanderson

That is not outside the realm of possibility.

I suppose another thing to take into account is that there are Awakened objects that can sense the Intent of people, such as the Awakened lock used in TLM to protect the jars of Purified Dor. I believe that suggests that they at least have the potential to see more deeply into the SR than just seeing Steel-lines.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

39 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that there would be some extra potential for precognitive abilities manifesting in Awakeners; they are closer to the Spritual Realm, so having a better ability to read it would make sense.

I especially think that if they had another way to see into the SR (Allomantic electrum or possibly Feruchemical chromium) that having access to a Heightening of sufficient power on top of that might make their future sight more effective, as the power has to do less work to access to the SR.

Also, thank you for complimenting my argument, I appreciate it 

It is worth mentioning that Awakened objects "see" in a comparable fashion to Steel Inquisitors. That isn't to say that they don't have access to seeing the SR in some way, only that there is another explanation for how they can sense the world around them and react to it.

I suppose another thing to take into account is that there are Awakened objects that can sense the Intent of people, such as the Awakened lock used in TLM to protect the jars of Purified Dor. I believe that suggests that they at least have the potential to see more deeply into the SR than just seeing Steel-lines.

Thanks for the wobs.  

I wonder if an awakened object could be commanded to share its sight with the user.  

A glass eye awakened to show the future or even just to show the spiritual aspects of the world in the way that the objects see.  

Brandon has said that using gold allomancy as a blind person for sight would be effective.  It would be extremely expensive but it would be effective form of sight for them. 

Wax uses his steel sight to see through walls and such as well. I bet gold level sight would be able to do the same thing.  

As far as I am aware, everything in the physical realm has a spiritual shadow of itself (the exception being aluminum which can be seen as the absence of everything else).  

Being able to awaken an item to act as a pseudo byakugan would be so rad.  360degree spiritual sight is awesome.  

Whether that could be granted via a cloth eyepatch at a lower heightening or would require a different item at 9th+ is up for debate. 

I wonder if 1000 breaths it took to make nightblood would be sufficient investiture to awaken an eye that grants atium level sight.  And if that item would feed off of the investiture due to the power being a bit imba.  

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thanks for the wobs.  

I wonder if an awakened object could be commanded to share its sight with the user.  

A glass eye awakened to show the future or even just to show the spiritual aspects of the world in the way that the objects see.  

I think that would be well within the limits of Awakening (we know that Nightblood can grant things to its wielder, for example. WoB), assuming that the Awakener had sufficient knowledge of what they were doing, enough Breath, and enough skill.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Whether that could be granted via a cloth eyepatch at a lower heightening or would require a different item at 9th+ is up for debate. 

Don't know, to be honest. Though from what we've seen so far, a lot of the powers that aren't just "make this object move around like a noodle on its own" have to do with Awakened non-organic things, suggesting that a lot of Breath is required- i.e. Nightblood, Azure's blade, and ToES spoilers...

Spoiler

Awakened circuits to allow for communication on tablets.

 

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I wonder if 1000 breaths it took to make nightblood would be sufficient investiture to awaken an eye that grants atium level sight.  And if that item would feed off of the investiture due to the power being a bit imba.  

Would 1,000 Breaths be enough to create A-Atium like effects with the proper knowledge and skill? Probably- that's a lot of Investiture being thrown around. However, the power uses Kinetic Investiture (and very quickly at that) so it likely would end up burning through the Breaths instead of granting a permanent free power.

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thanks for the wobs.  

You're welcome