Long Game 95: The Fire of Ado's Light

[|TJ| he/him]

7 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Bro. Autonomy has three actions unlike us plebs due to Vessel Action. They can have the best of both worlds by making an Avatar and siphoning Investiture at the same time / in the same cycle. 

i keep forgetting about vessel stuff smh. 

odium can splinter shards in containment right? if so, then the person to receive it could yeet it back to containment and drake could splinter it there. 

[Archer he/him]

Pew pew, here's some bullets

-Drake's writing style has shifted. Gambit mode activated, me thinks

-Araris did mention IRL activity dampeners pre game, unsure of their impact

-We're missing a lot of players. Waldin

-I'm ignoring the Avatars because idk how Kas is talking to them, how one died, what they are etc. I'll reread the rules later. Curse the game delay that made me forget everything I pre read

-TJ voting Kas is similar to Elandera voting Xino. Good wagon to back to avoid being proven wrong

-All the talkative people seem village

Elandera

[STINK he/him]

This thread should get more active I'm drinking again tonight smh

[Araris Valerian he/him]

56 minutes ago, Archer said:

-Araris did mention IRL activity dampeners pre game, unsure of their impact

*winces* Yeah, unfortunately my activity is about to get worse, so I can't really object too much to getting exed. I've got a couple of Prudence charges (missed my D2 action) and am planning to set up some PMs, which will hopefully help me get re-engaged in the game. Will work on a vote, since apparently there wasn't an appetite for Szeth.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

5 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

*winces* Yeah, unfortunately my activity is about to get worse, so I can't really object too much to getting exed. I've got a couple of Prudence charges (missed my D2 action) and am planning to set up some PMs, which will hopefully help me get re-engaged in the game. Will work on a vote, since apparently there wasn't an appetite for Szeth.

Actually, Szeth has been feeling a little bit wonky this game. I might take a look at him, so don't be afraid to keep your vote where it is.

Edited June 13, 2023 by The Bald Brandon

[|TJ| he/him]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

-TJ voting Kas is similar to Elandera voting Xino. Good wagon to back to avoid being proven wrong

I did not vote Kas, was mildly paranoid about him and then got sucked into because Kas pulled me into a thread-brawl >> 

[Mat he/him]

Hi here's a low budget reads list; tiers are ordered

Szeth, Drake, TBB
Fadran, Elan, Kas
Turtle, DeTess
TJ, Archer, Fifth, Stink, Wiz, JNV
Fae, Araris
Walin, xino

Explanations on the ones I think probably need them (edit: also feel free to ask if anything is unclear)

• Fadran: Engagement read, maybe I'm wrong but I feel Fadran with an interesting role would be more interested in the game. This is by far his least active game and I personally didn't find his one comment too weird.
• Elan: Just a read because I agree with e!xino
• Turtle/DeTess: Lumping them together because they're players who I feel like I village read but have legitimately nothing on, and feel I should (turtle because of their almost-train that sort of took off and DeTess because I originally e read them)
• Black is just null, like I have no idea and it's really annoying >>
• Fae is probably lower than deserved but actually what was their voting pattern (am ignoring the fact it was night)
• I don't think Araris going for PMs is v indicative
• Re-highlighting Walin being all 'Oh I'm going for an action, put that in your theories *wink wink*' and then apparently... doing nothing??

Dunno what the VC is, feel like it's not a lot and should be smh you people, I will start on xino. I wouldn't mind a resolution on yesterday's trains. It seems like we've been narrowly missing elims a lot lately.

(Sorry for the shorthand and complete lack of grammar and formatting, I've developed a lovely mid-June cold for some reason >>)

Edited June 13, 2023 by Matrim's Dice

[Elandera she/her]

I'll go ahead and vote Xino again. I agree with Mat that some of the questions should be resolved, and my biggest question (and suspicion) is Xino. 

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

2 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I've got a couple of Prudence charges (missed my D2 action) and am planning to set up some PMs, which will hopefully help me get re-engaged in the game. Will work on a vote, since apparently there wasn't an appetite for Szeth.

Who are you and what have you done with Araris Valerian?

What on Silverlight is the “Xino question”

I will note I’m not entirely absolving Drake of suspicion until he actually finds Autonomy, but if he’s being sensible with Odium there’s no reason to look for another custodian  

 

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

4 hours ago, Archer said:

Pew pew, here's some bullets

-Drake's writing style has shifted. Gambit mode activated, me thinks

-Araris did mention IRL activity dampeners pre game, unsure of their impact

-We're missing a lot of players. Waldin

-I'm ignoring the Avatars because idk how Kas is talking to them, how one died, what they are etc. I'll reread the rules later. Curse the game delay that made me forget everything I pre read

-TJ voting Kas is similar to Elandera voting Xino. Good wagon to back to avoid being proven wrong

-All the talkative people seem village

Elandera

 

Sheep shoop ship.

Elandera

[Kasimir he/him]

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

!!! >:(

I regret to inform u it is still not finished

But there has been Progress

journey before destination right

(also i really needed slep lol)

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

don't worry sir, do however much villaging you want

I know I am

the only right way 2 village in this game for real

3 hours ago, Archer said:

-I'm ignoring the Avatars because idk how Kas is talking to them, how one died, what they are etc. I'll reread the rules later. Curse the game delay that made me forget everything I pre read

It's called 'actually attending a rave.'

Or: when Autonomy loves themselves very much, a minor Autonomy is formed on a world, and anyone who is on that world gets to talk with the new kid in the world doc!

2 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

*winces* Yeah, unfortunately my activity is about to get worse, so I can't really object too much to getting exed. I've got a couple of Prudence charges (missed my D2 action) and am planning to set up some PMs, which will hopefully help me get re-engaged in the game. Will work on a vote, since apparently there wasn't an appetite for Szeth.

RIP Araris

Wiz - the only thing I remember of you is showing up to declare Mat Autonomy. Not necessarily fond of this.

(Side-question to table: this thread isn't the place but if I don't take it down now, I won't remember it for meta whenever. It usually #feelsbad to exe someone with activity problems or with difficulties otherwise but if you suspect them, then arguably it's a minimum damage exe. Is it ethically acceptable? Because ngl that usually gets me to back off if my main basis for suspicion is activity-based.)

[JNV]

@DrakeMarshall if you Splinter Cultivation in containment then Shards cant be unsplintered and Hoids faction cant ever get their sudden death win con I mean it wasnt really a big concern but Splintered shards while a tragedy also are just easier to keep in containment cause it just takes the one turn

@Ashbringer can Splintered Shards still come out of containment like normal cause like the rules say they cant be passed but can they still be gotten

[Araris Valerian he/him]

2 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Who are you and what have you done with Araris Valerian?

I'm pretty sure it's in character for me to grouch in a PM with Kas . 

And sure, I'll stick my vote on Szeth for now. Nothing new since last cycle though.

I'm very fine with being exed btw. I don't feel my presence is vital enough to my team this game to make it worth fighting. Though it seems likely that the game will go on for a while, so maybe I'll live long enough to rock the boat a bit.

[Ashbringer he/him]

3 hours ago, JNV said:

@DrakeMarshall if you Splinter Cultivation in containment then Shards cant be unsplintered and Hoids faction cant ever get their sudden death win con I mean it wasnt really a big concern but Splintered shards while a tragedy also are just easier to keep in containment cause it just takes the one turn

@Ashbringer can Splintered Shards still come out of containment like normal cause like the rules say they cant be passed but can they still be gotten

I will note, Hoid now can Fuse Splintered Shards, so Odium can’t shut down his SD wincon anymore. (Because of this specific interaction + Khriss not having any similar interaction.)

And yes, Splintered Shards in Containment act like normal Shards in Containment. You can still Siphon from them and they can still Breach.

[DeTess she/her]

Sorry for my (relatively speaking) low amount of effort these last couple of days. The weather here has suddenly gotten quite hot (by local standards at least), and I really don't do well with the heat. Temperatures are coming down, but it might still be a day or two before I can string more than 2-3 coherent thoughts together.

So, anyway, some suspicion swirls around Xino and araris mostly at this point I think? Let me reread them to form some reads of my own there.

Araris has mostly not been that active, which makes it hard to form a read on them. Two things stand out to me:

The comment that it is more of a faction game is something I'm not entirely sure is coming form a village perspective. To the village, all the other factions are elims. Only to Hoid and Khris' groups does the faction aspect really come into play, so someone involved with either would be more likely to see it as a faction game.

6 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

I'm very fine with being exed btw. I don't feel my presence is vital enough to my team this game to make it worth fighting. Though it seems likely that the game will go on for a while, so maybe I'll live long enough to rock the boat a bit.

This is something that leapt out to me, though I have hard time putting the figure on why this drew my attention. Maybe it's the whole 'don't feel my presence is vital enough to my team this game to make it worth fighting' feeling like an indirect admission that Araris is not on the 17th shard's side? At least, the 17th shard hasn't felt like anything approaching a team so far to me.

Conclusion: yes, I would be up to execute Araris.

The other one that seems to be accruing some attention is Xino.

So there's only been about two game-posts by Xino. One was a big wall of text discussing game mechanics N0, which is pretty NAI, but forms a marked contrast with Xino's lack of activity later, while the other was a vote on alpha they claimed was for self-preservation reasons. And that's it. I don't really have feelings one way or another on Xino. Won't mind if they get executed, but don't feel like I should put my vote down there. @xinoehp512, you still with us?

Now, to get back to Araris, do I feel worse about them than I do about Archer or TBB?

I don't really know. Don't really like Archer's assessment that all the talkative people are likely village, because I have a hard time believing that that is true, and it feels more like an attempt to appease those that might try to execute Archer. But at this point I also might be tunneling on them.

Meanwhile TBB feels like they're saying too little for the amount of posts they're making if that makes sense? Liker they're trying to lay low while not appearing to lay low. But at this point I'm too drained to do a proper read-through of all their posts again.

Anyway, I think I feel fine putting a vote on Araris for now.

 

[The Unknown Order he/him]

3 hours ago, DeTess said:

Sorry for my (relatively speaking) low amount of effort these last couple of days. The weather here has suddenly gotten quite hot (by local standards at least), and I really don't do well with the heat. Temperatures are coming down, but it might still be a day or two before I can string more than 2-3 coherent thoughts together.

So, anyway, some suspicion swirls around Xino and araris mostly at this point I think? Let me reread them to form some reads of my own there.

Araris has mostly not been that active, which makes it hard to form a read on them. Two things stand out to me:

The comment that it is more of a faction game is something I'm not entirely sure is coming form a village perspective. To the village, all the other factions are elims. Only to Hoid and Khris' groups does the faction aspect really come into play, so someone involved with either would be more likely to see it as a faction game.

This is something that leapt out to me, though I have hard time putting the figure on why this drew my attention. Maybe it's the whole 'don't feel my presence is vital enough to my team this game to make it worth fighting' feeling like an indirect admission that Araris is not on the 17th shard's side? At least, the 17th shard hasn't felt like anything approaching a team so far to me.

Conclusion: yes, I would be up to execute Araris.

The other one that seems to be accruing some attention is Xino.

So there's only been about two game-posts by Xino. One was a big wall of text discussing game mechanics N0, which is pretty NAI, but forms a marked contrast with Xino's lack of activity later, while the other was a vote on alpha they claimed was for self-preservation reasons. And that's it. I don't really have feelings one way or another on Xino. Won't mind if they get executed, but don't feel like I should put my vote down there. @xinoehp512, you still with us?

Now, to get back to Araris, do I feel worse about them than I do about Archer or TBB?

I don't really know. Don't really like Archer's assessment that all the talkative people are likely village, because I have a hard time believing that that is true, and it feels more like an attempt to appease those that might try to execute Archer. But at this point I also might be tunneling on them.

Meanwhile TBB feels like they're saying too little for the amount of posts they're making if that makes sense? Liker they're trying to lay low while not appearing to lay low. But at this point I'm too drained to do a proper read-through of all their posts again.

Anyway, I think I feel fine putting a vote on Araris for now.

 

Hmmm. Maybe I'll go after Xino, he has a bad track record as an inactive.

Bold mine.

Three things: I don't really have the capability to fluff up or fluff down my posts, they kinda just are; I think this might be a symptom of me just having a higher post count this game due to having more activity than usual; I think you'll find, if you look at past games of mine (up to you if you actually do), that I tend to say roughly the same amount of stuff, just spread out over more or less posts.

[DeTess she/her]

3 minutes ago, The Bald Brandon said:

.

Three things: I don't really have the capability to fluff up or fluff down my posts, they kinda just are; I think this might be a symptom of me just having a higher post count this game due to having more activity than usual; I think you'll find, if you look at past games of mine (up to you if you actually do), that I tend to say roughly the same amount of stuff, just spread out over more or less posts.

I doubt I'll have the energy for that anytime soon, but just in case, could you link me two games of yours, one village, one elim (without telling me which is which)?

[Kasimir he/him]

Need to head back to the report. Immune system seems to be a welcome mat after COVID because sick again RIP. Will try to get RP out sometime but had a few thoughts to drop due to thread.

Thoughts:

• 4 hours ago, DeTess said:

  This is something that leapt out to me, though I have hard time putting the figure on why this drew my attention. Maybe it's the whole 'don't feel my presence is vital enough to my team this game to make it worth fighting' feeling like an indirect admission that Araris is not on the 17th shard's side? At least, the 17th shard hasn't felt like anything approaching a team so far to me.

  The thing for me is this actually pushed me away from E!Araris if only because Araris lives for being Evil. I guess that and the fact that my vote for Araris was a H/K/B profile vote. I don't really recall Araris ever sounding out of it in an E game. I have remembered him being out of things in a V game, most prominently LG94. But this is once again tempered with the fact that I keep warning players I like playing with Araris and this tends to distort my reads in favour of not finding him Evil even when I shouldn't (LG83, LG93 :sob:), so maybe I'm not the guy to be listening to here.

• 4 hours ago, DeTess said:

  I don't really know. Don't really like Archer's assessment that all the talkative people are likely village, because I have a hard time believing that that is true, and it feels more like an attempt to appease those that might try to execute Archer. But at this point I also might be tunneling on them.

  I don't disagree but it feels like a quintessential Archer take. He has this thing where he just likes to sometimes default read talky people Village under the assumption that they'll say enough incriminating things later on. But IDK if that's what's going on here. I admit I am deliberately trying very hard not to think about Archer at this point because I either hard-commit at this point to doing a past-games deep dive on him, or I simply watch. And I kind of don't want to put in the time for that first one.

• 51 minutes ago, The Bald Brandon said:

  Hmmm. Maybe I'll go after Xino, he has a bad track record as an inactive.

  I don't disagree with this assessment but I remember backing a Xino ML at least twice on inactivity grounds after the donut, only to find that Xino was Village. One of the games this happened in sticks out to me as QF64 - the other probably has to be sometime in the future, but I mightn't mind digging that one up as much as it basically has to be after LG91 and QF64. As a result, I wouldn't really feel comfortable simply going on the grounds of the donut yet again without a subsequent read. I will note this is compelling in light of the fact Xino doesn't seem fundamentally interested in votes/comments/flags at him, though. Doc profile stuff more or less.

• 4 hours ago, DeTess said:

  Meanwhile TBB feels like they're saying too little for the amount of posts they're making if that makes sense? Liker they're trying to lay low while not appearing to lay low. But at this point I'm too drained to do a proper read-through of all their posts again.

  Something TBB keeps saying as a rule of thumb which I accept and I believe V!TBB acknowledged to be true in LG94 is that generally, V!TBB takes some time to get on his feet. He's had higher activity/contribution games before, but also lower ones. In general, V!TBB will find some way of being helpful to the Village or contributive by the third cycle. If that's pretty missing or if he isn't saying or doing much Village-sided by that cut-off, it's a fair shout to depress your read of him. At this point, I will say I probably have him as a null or null+ - I don't really know why, I don't feel comfortable with a stronger placement at this point, so I will simply go with what feels okay.

• 12 hours ago, JNV said:

  @DrakeMarshall if you Splinter Cultivation in containment then Shards cant be unsplintered and Hoids faction cant ever get their sudden death win con I mean it wasnt really a big concern but Splintered shards while a tragedy also are just easier to keep in containment cause it just takes the one turn

  @Ashbringer can Splintered Shards still come out of containment like normal cause like the rules say they cant be passed but can they still be gotten

  I like this post. V!points for thinking about how to screw Hoid over. Agreed it's technically K/B compatible, but again, JNV's tell.

• If I change my vote, I'll change it after my report is done, but I still think @The Wandering Wizard is either Chameleoning, or in a doc.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

12 hours ago, JNV said:

@DrakeMarshall if you Splinter Cultivation in containment then Shards cant be unsplintered and Hoids faction cant ever get their sudden death win con I mean it wasnt really a big concern but Splintered shards while a tragedy also are just easier to keep in containment cause it just takes the one turn

yea Ash already clarified this one, it won't in fact make Hoid's sudden death win condition impossible unfortunately

that said... imo the sudden death wincons of Hoid and Khriss are logistically hard enough that they aren't really worth spending any brain resources on for the village anyways

For one, there are 16 Shards, which is more than in previous games, so gathering them all just got harder. For two, even in previous games, outnumbering was always way more practical. Even if you only got half the Shards in your grasp as Hoid or Khriss, you'd already be really overpowered. You'd already be able to most likely win by outnumbering without much problems. In fact, I'm pretty sure you'd have to deliberately avoid ending the game early by winning through outnumber, just to have enough time to chase down every last Shard and do everything required for Sudden Death.

yes, in the abstract, its fun to think about them, but if you want my advice -- the Sudden Death wincons of Hoid or Khriss are distractions.

Autonomy's Sudden Death is slightly more worrying, by comparison.

but back to the subject of splintering Cultivation i might want to do it anyway

idk. It depends on how much I use Odium's shardic ability. But if I committed to using the shardic ability to the fullest, that would have to mean Intent Conversion. And I'm pretty sure Odium's Independent win condition will involve splintering Shards. And I'm pretty sure splintering Cultivation is the single best thing I could do to make progress on that goal. Also, IIRC Odium's Independent win condition in LG43 explicitly involved having both Cultivation and Honor splintered, so yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

anyways, it's useful because it means any problematic Shards I splinter are well and truly gone

so, while I do not promise I will splinter Cultivation, also do not be too shocked if I end up doing that

preferably while its still in containment because I am a pacifist

[Archer he/him]

Quote

don't really know. Don't really like Archer's assessment that all the talkative people are likely village, because I have a hard time believing that that is true, and it feels more like an attempt to appease those that might try to execute Archer. But at this point I also might be tunneling on them.

It's unlikely, isn't it! But if you break it down, it holds pretty well up until about Mat/Szeth, who I wouldn't label especially talkative this cycle. Reads list:
Top:
-Kas: On a purely meta level, I have wondered if the GMs spared them the pain of village apathy by making them evil. Autonomy!Kas makes little sense because someone might join him on the worlds he's advertised have Avatars, forcing him to be two people at once. Or at least have conversations with himself. Otherwise, he seems to have gone through a long song and dance about being chill then very much thawing, which seems like V!him genuinely caring about the game.
-Drake and DeTess: Odium related clears.
-Fifth and Turtle and Araris: being cool with dying is village. I guess.

Caveat about Araris: docs exist. Surprised he wants Prudence rather than using them as an engagement strategy. 
Mid:
-TJ: Kas has said that he needs TJ to threadbrawl him in order to get a read on him. Wondering if TJ intentionally jumped into a tussle with Kas to get village read out of it.
-Mat and Szeth: What have you done for me lately? is a pertinent question. Good conversion targets. I have vaguely positive reads of them but can't remember why. Mat does reads lists as both alignments but I have a mental sticky note saying it's elim busywork. 
Bottom:
-Elandera: not to harp on the point too much, but their last 4 posts haven't mentioned anyone else but Xino. It's a little too tight
-Xino: The best part about this set up is they can also be evil! Elandera makes a compelling case. Could be two elims on different teams going at it.
-Walin: I do want to know about the forgotten action. Read pending explanation
-TBB: Too suspicious to convert. If they're a named good guy, they claim D1. If they're a named baddie, they're at their lowest point D1 - why not worldhop to somewhere that gives them an edge when we run it back N1/D2? I suspect the baddies started with a vote manip investiture to get them through D1, but I can see them not using it when they evaluated at EoD it was better to hope the tie held. I'll admit they were sneaky about their voting D1, I just keep shoving them to the backburner on the assumption that if they're a named bad guy, surely there's actions that'll expose them and people should be working on that.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

5 minutes ago, Archer said:

Drake and DeTess: Odium related clears.

Very curious why you think Drake having Odium, or DeTess having a charge of it and using it, is in any way exculpatory for either of them

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

If I change my vote, I'll change it after my report is done, but I still think @The Wandering Wizard is either Chameleoning, or in a doc.

Well it's kinda both. The Sel doc is lonely...

And honestly part of it was to see how invisible I was when I noticed that I was while chameleoning.

I'm not opposed to being exed as I don't feel there's much I can do to help and my activity is going to dive even lower next week.

[Kasimir he/him]

22 minutes ago, Archer said:

-Mat and Szeth: What have you done for me lately? is a pertinent question. Good conversion targets. I have vaguely positive reads of them but can't remember why. Mat does reads lists as both alignments but I have a mental sticky note saying it's elim busywork. 

I'll note FUD tend to be an E!Mat tell/tactic, as is Mat's willingness to be proactive in engaging the direction of the lynch. I'd watch for Mat doing reads erosion into mid-game. Also perspective slips depending on how the game is going. Potentially dampened by the fact Mat is lower activity than usual but I think the good comparator for busy!V!Mat is LG91, since that was pretty much the case there.

Defensiveness remains a good tell I think. Depending. IDK.

There's kind of one more E!Mat tell that I've been holding back on for a rainy day but I'm keeping it in mind.

16 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Very curious why you think Drake having Odium, or DeTess having a charge of it and using it, is in any way exculpatory for either of them

Rich, coming from you of all people.

14 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Well it's kinda both. The Sel doc is lonely...

And honestly part of it was to see how invisible I was when I noticed that I was while chameleoning.

I'm not opposed to being exed as I don't feel there's much I can do to help and my activity is going to dive even lower next week.

I'm questioning this.

K, this makes it at least four people confirmed to have been off-world last Turn and y'all wonder why you can't free Shards.

I say this as I acknowledge I have no intention of returning to Silverlight if I can get away with it because Shards are Evil and Adonalsium should stay dead and the rational mind must reject God in the face of the fundamental evil, suffering, and the brokenness of the world-as-it-is-in-experience.

Edited to add:

Like c'mon seriously?

I've been squatting on planets dealing in recreational substances since D1 and dancing.

Not saying you shouldn't engage with the game how you want to but I fundamentally just don't get this attitude.

Shards are roles. Fancy, OP roles.

Still just roles.

People going kayana over them probably is some sort of throwback to Roshar going nuts over Shardblades and Shardplate and forgetting that there's life without them.

There's still just a base game, existing, reading, applying pressure, being read - all of these help the Village. No one has to engage with the fancy Shard overlayer to be fundamentally helpful or do our bit.

I legit do not get this.

If the base game is not good, Village Shards won't get enough info to target. They'll be dependent on luck, given the paucity of scans. This is not ideal for the Village.

K I promised myself I wouldn't rant or care because caring is the first step to disappointment but whatever I suppose I'd make a crap Jedi.

Like y'all really want to go raw faction game? Us against full stacked factions where the lynch is a joke because we're just voting whoever is not in our faction? Thing is, we lose that game because if we're Village we don't know. That sort of scenario is the best for Hoid, Khriss, and Bavadin.

IRDGI and I really should just stop sticking my nose into this, be good, and finish that kriffing report.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Kasimir

[Mat he/him]

That Archer post feels hypocritical for a few reasons that I may outline later, I noticed a few things he pointed out that he himself had been called out for doing this game :P.

At the same time idk if that makes me e read him any more 

[Turtle]

ok im back the end of school has been very hectic

will be rereading rn