Mid-Range Game 2: Servants of Honor

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I, apparently, am not as popular as you guys. I don't know if it's because I was skaa last game or what, but I didn't get any messages.

One of you two did get my message. I will reveal who if necessary. I think Jerric's plan is a very good one. It makes a lot of sense to me. The only problem is that it wouldve been great if it had been proposed yesterday. It still works, just not quite as well.

[Tulir he/him]

Having thought a bit about it, Jerric, I do agree with Mallaw, in that your plan is a good one.  It is pretty clever, so nice job thinking of it.

Naihar, I believe Aonar is right about the 2 Squires, because this was in the rule list at the beginning: "Each cycle will be a Day Turn, lasting 48 hours long.  The first cycle has no actions or votes, other than the Windrunners, who can only recruit Squires that cycle."

I would expect both Windrunners to use their Recruit ability, but the point still stands, we have at most 2 Squires at this point.

[Alvron he/him]

Having thought a bit about it, Jerric, I do agree with Mallaw, in that your plan is a good one.  It is pretty clever, so nice job thinking of it.

Naihar, I believe Aonar is right about the 2 Squires, because this was in the rule list at the beginning: "Each cycle will be a Day Turn, lasting 48 hours long.  The first cycle has no actions or votes, other than the Windrunners, who can only recruit Squires that cycle."

I would expect both Windrunners to use their Recruit ability, but the point still stands, we have at most 2 Squires at this point.

 

Thanks Tulir.  Once again I miss something.  I really need to learn how to read and not just skim.

[Metacognition he/him]

Metam had come across a bottle of liquor that was evidently left out in the storm the other night, as the good folk of the city ran for shelter. 

As such, his sign swinging was more crazy than normal. With every swing, he stumbled to the side as well. 

 

"THE STORMPERSON HAS SPOKEN TO ME! THE END DRAW CLOSE! DO THAT THING WITH THE SAVING YOUR SOUL THINGY!"

He might be drunk, but he still had people to save and save him he would. 

 

As he continued his rant, Lyce just happened to stroll past a little too close and got clocked by Metam's sign. Metam stopped his swinging to see who he had hit. 

 

"YOU!" He said, pointing at the double image of Lyce. "HAVE YOU RE... REPENTEDED? HAVE YOU FOUND SOUL-LACE IN THE HERALDS? THE FINAL DESOLATION COMES! YOU MUST PREPARE!"

-------

 

Looks like I'm not all that popular either, just to let us know where we stand.

 

I kind of like this idea of revealing messages (or at least who received what) afterwards. By that point, there's nothing that the Skybreakers can do about it, so it's additional information we can use to hunt them down. We won't want to reveal names and there's still the chance that the Skybreakers will try to use it as well, but this seems to be an effective way to use the messaging. We need to get past our idea of trying to do everything behind the scenes. A single message just isn't enough. We need to focus on discussing in thread or we're already dead. 

 

[Wyrmhero he/him]

I think we would be interested to know the name attached to that PM, Gamma. I agree that the anonymous nature of the messages could mean that it was a set up, but if you receive suspect information, it may be best to just reveal it all. Though that may lead to us lynching the person in question just to check, as happened to Racine in the last game, and we may not be so lucky this time around.

 

We can't by its very nature trust this messaging system to be reliable or secure, though as Jerric says, there are ways to make it known whether a message has been stolen or not. The only problem with that is that it requires sending a message to that player at least once more. So it's a good idea if you intend on having a slow conversation, but may not be entirely useful if you intend on messaging multiple players.

 

I'm also not surprised that Gamma and Aonar received by far the most messages this cycle. We have little actual information to go on, so it's just a case of people messaging the most experienced players. On the other hand, I find it interesting that Mai and Meta got none. I suppose the question is what people said in their messages. You can't really feel them out without replies... I guess I'm just not experienced in the message-sending department, considering I've never initiated a PM of my own accord in one of these games.

 

I am inclined to agree with Meta's idea of revealing messages, but perhaps scrubbing out both names and sensitive information at first, at least until we know a little more where we stand.

 

I do think we're getting a little bogged down with messages though. We've already lost about an eighth of this Cycle, and there's only one bit of vote-discussion, but since it's the first, there's probably no real information behind it. Why Lyce, of all people?

 

I'm going to vote for Madame Quismet, since QC has been on this topic, is following it, but hasn't posted.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[+Quitecontrary she/her]

Ah Wyrm, that's because I prefer to get emailed responses and forgot to follow the last cycle so almost missed the deadline(on the follow), the thread is open in any one of the devices (on the lurking), am on the road, and I get a little dizzy when typing a response since the car I'm in doesn't deal well in bumpy roads (on the non posting).   

 

(have asked my driver to stop)

 

I understand voting for the inactive lurker is fairly common, however, I did notice it doesn't yield Team Evil kills as well as we'd all hope. I'm by far the most ordinary innkeeper in this game, have not received messages at all. Sent out one though, albeit cutting it too close to the deadline because of my infernal traveling. (Sorry about that, GM!)

 

Jerric's idea is very ingenious. I like that sort of tracking system, but I also believe activity here in the thread will better help us in tracking down the Skybreakers. 

 

If I do receive a message and I post it here and scrub out the name, how does it help anyone? I think if the message is fairly important, and suspicion is high, transparency is a better option. 

 

I won't vote for anyone yet and will do once I'm settled in.

 

Quis tapped her lips as she reviewed her books and sales from yesterday. Well well. Bad news can be good news after all. She hadn't had this much sales in quite a bit of time. She thought maybe the idea of impending doom makes people want to forget. To be merry, to drink, to laugh (even fakely), to live a little bit more.

 

She thought of that scamp, the little kid who murmurs achievements too unbelievable for anyone to take seriously, and thought that he disappeared right after eating. Too bad, she thought. She needed a runner.

 

She looked around at the new faces, the new "regulars", and smiled. Perhaps she can give Reginar a bonus. His news brought customers to her almost bankrupt inn. 

 

As she directed her tavern girls, she noticed something scratched at the far wall of her tavern.

 

"What the---", and sighed. Three scratches on the wood. Vandals.

 

Oh well, she'll have enough money to get that repaired soon enough.

 

EDIT: blue

Edited August 17, 2014 by Quitecontrary

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Well, didn't expect that reply so quick . Removing my vote for Mademe Quismet. I think I might wait for a bit for my next vote though, until some other people have said stuff. Eh, might as well keep a vote somewhere, if it encourages people to post. Well, Jain's usually on around this time, so let's try and provoke a response.

[Binnut he/him]

I sent mine to Gamma mostly because I wanted to contact one of the experienced players. (and I thought Meta would get his messages stolen)

I'll remedy that this turn...

[twelfthrootoftwo]

I had the idea of using the number of kills to estimate the number of messages stolen by the Skybreakers, since they need to choose between their Lashings. But after doing some calculations, the chances of there being a Henchman squire with Reverse Lashing is nearly 1/4 after three rounds of perfectly efficient recruiting (for both 2 and 3 henchman cases), so it's not reliable enough to be useful.

Revealing messages could certainly be useful, though I'm worried it will allow team evil to identify the Windrunners too easily. Information- and communication-wise, they're in a similar position to team evil, which means we can expect their PM patterns to look similar (or similarly faked). And while the village won't know their alignment for certain, they then become prime targets for Division.

Of course, as a mid-range game, the value of immediate information is increased, and powers (arguably) decreased. So the trade-off may be worth it. (If we do decide to reveal, there's little point in using Jerric's security system.)

[+Quitecontrary she/her]

I think there's still value in using Jerric's security system because we're not revealing everything anyway. And we won't really know how useful it is until we test it out. It'd be exciting to see whether it really will help some.

[Sart he/him]

I've been busy with real life, so I haven't been active recently. I have to say, I like Jerric's idea, although it does rely on one message actually going through. I don't have any suspicions at this point, and I'll try to RP when I have more time.

[Binnut he/him]

Just to see if there is an reaction. Jeno, do you have anything to contribute with?

 

 

Edit: Grammar.

Edit2: Retracted

Edited August 18, 2014 by Binnut

[Sart he/him]

Gart looked calmly at the sea, and sighed. He was far from home, but he didn't mind. Sure, he might have been nervous about his future, but he was doing the Herald's work. He had to convert the people. A desolation was coming, and they needed the blessings of the heralds. He wondered who he should try to convert first. Perhaps that crazed preacher would work? Gart assumed he would be an easy convert, but that might backfire on him. He sighed, and went back to praying. Hopefully the Heralds knew what to do.

 

For some reason I can't do color on this computer right now, so pretend this is blue. I'm glad I got more time to RP, but I'm still not sure how active I'll be. Well, if college is anything like today, I should have more time to participate.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Hmm, well I might as well go ahead and say who was signed as the author of that one particular message to me: Serji

So I'm not exactly sure what to make of it, because I got an update from Ren saying he forgot to add something in the original message, and it was a (x) Number. Now, this ties into Serji's whole plan of adding those code-numbers to the messages, and unless he planned in a Doc with somebody else beforehand, he's the only one who would have had that idea from the last Cycle. So that does seem to narrow it down to it being actually him that sent that message.

What would help is if somebody can come forward saying whether also received a message from Serji last night, then that could help start finding some possible lies or schemes. Or if Serji himself can come forward and tell us what he meant by that message to me, or even at least saying it wasn't him if it indeed wasn't him.  Also, I would hope the Trustwatcher maybe takes a look at Serji tonight just in case. (I would also prefer to hopefully be protected by whatever Lash that is that does protect people, because if this was a legit attempt by the Skybreakers to reach out to me, then me coming forward like this obviously completely backfired on them, so they might just want to take me out out of spite or whatever) >.<

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

As of yet, I have not received nor sent any messages. Partly because I'll actually try to survive a game and turtle it out. Partly because I was violently ill the pas few days and couldn't do much.

[Sir Jerric he/him]

Well, if I hadn't been so busy all day, I'd been planning on claiming my message to Gamma before he got to post my name. But I wanted to get the bugs worked out of the fancy step, and that worked me through the afternoon beyond Gamma's post. Oh well.
 
Are you saying the GM forgot to include part of my message, after he had told us he would just copy-paste exactly what we sent? What fun. =) (Not angry at you, Renegade, but that double identifier was important. ) I can tell you the number, if you want the extra confirmation, but I'd have to change my base sequence number for future messages to you if I do.
 
Going back to speaking of the fancy step, since people seem to like the idea: Here's how to take the whole system one (big) step farther.

How to add security features to your anonymous PM conversations for fun and profit
 
Throughout this tutorial, I shall refer to my anonymous assistants as Alex, Beth, Cara, Danny, and Eric.
 
Chain Dependent Signature: (Advanced)
Alex and Beth are worried that their Messages may be stolen, and that someone might try to impersonate them using the anonymity of the Message system.
 
Alex sends Beth a Message on Day 2.

(194)Beth,
 
I like your hair.
 
Sincerely,
Alex

Now, you probably have noticed that nothing is different in this message. One has to start somewhere.
 
On Day 4, Beth replies to Alex in another Message. But she decides to prove that she received the previous message.
 
Taking the first letter of the first word in the body of Alex's message ( i ), and the first letter of the last word in the body of the message ( h ), she consults the following table:
 
a = 17
b = 18
c = 19
d = 20
e = 21
f = 22
g = 23
h = 24
i = 25
j = 26
k = 27
l = 28
m = 29
n = 30
o = 31
p = 32
q = 33
r = 34
s = 35
t = 36
u = 37
v = 38
w = 39
x = 40
y = 41
z = 42
 
This is just "a=1+16, b=2+16, etc." Not that complex. Why not just use "a=1, b=2, etc."? Bigger numbers, better squares. Keep reading. =)
 
She adds the numbers and multiplies by itself ((24 + 25)^2 = 49^2 = 2041), adds those digits together (2+4+0+1 = 7), finds the remainder of dividing by 26 (7 mod 26 = 7), adds 16 to map the result onto the table (7+16 = 23 = g), and uses the resultant letter to add a descriptor to her signature.

(2487)Alex,
 
What does my hair have to do with this game?
 
Irritably,
Beth the Grumpy

On Day 4, Alex receives this missive and repeats the table look-up and formula to confirm that Beth wrote the reply. In writing his reply, he takes one more step: he also adds in the first and last first letters of her message as well.
((24 + 25) + (39 + 23)) ^ 2 = 12321
=> 1+2+3+2+1 = 9
=> 9 mod 26 + 16 = 25 = ( i )

(195)Beth,
 
Your tresses are long enough for the henchmen to braid. What else?
 
Cordially,
Alex the Inconceivable

Sadly, Cara has used a Reverse Lashing on Beth for her action on Day 4, and Beth does not get Alex's reply.
 
Now Cara is in a bit of a bind. If she wants to impersonate Beth, she will need to use the correct title on her signature. With just this message, the formula gives her:
(41 + 21) ^ 2 = 3844
=> 3+8+4+4 = 19
=> 19 mod 26 + 16 = 35 = ( s ),
but the result of Alex's test will be
((24 + 25) + (39 + 23) + (41 + 21)) ^ 2 = 29929
=> 2+9+9+2+9 = 31
=> 31 mod 26 + 16 = 21 = ( e ),
not that she knows that. ( s ) might be right, if the numbers worked out correctly, but it is more likely to be wrong. And beyond that, Cara does not know what sequence number Beth would use.
 
Beth has not received message 195 on Day 4, and Alex hasn't said that 195 wasn't sent. She notes the absence in her regular message (2488) to Alex.
 
Cara could send a message like the one Beth is going to send above, mentioning not receiving the message she stole, and just signing with the ( i ) used in the stolen message.
 
On Day 5, Alex receives two messages from Beth, both with bad signatures (he's including 195, Cara only has 195, and Beth never got 195). But seeing that one has the correct sequence number (2488) and that 195 was remarked as not received, he notes that 2488 uses the ( i ) signature appropriate for the third message in the chain, confirming that one as being the real Beth.
 
For extra complexity, there could be a situation in which Beth has previously used the "Message 2486 not sent" some cycles previously. Cara could try to assume that this sample sequence number is from the Alex-Beth exchange. She will still need to guess whether the notice refers to the cycle of statement or the cycle before, and how far to increment (one every other day, or one every day, or was another day skipped without mention as well?) over the intervening time.

Since you already have my message to Gamma as a sample, I might as well use it. I'd grab the words Having and Radiants, convert those to 24 and 34, add to get 58, square to get 3364, add the digits to get 12, add 16 for a result of 38=( v ). So in a reply, Gamma would want to give himself the title of "Gamin the Verisimilar" or something. Except he probably won't, since anyone who wants to impersonate him under my system knows exactly how to do it from this example, so "anyone" will need a better method of bluffing me. =)
 
Lastly, I'll address a couple of concerns.
 
While it might have been nice for one message to have gone through, the second part of this system will let you know how that turned out, since it is dependent on having all the previous messages. Stolen messages are not included in the sum, and the system continues to do its job.
 
Learning your contact's sequence number does require a minimum of one message in each direction, but if an early message is stolen, just change numbers. Unless the eliminators pile on stealing messages from a single person, you'll get one through eventually. And if they do pile on, they lose out on stealing more important messages. =)

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Well, first off, I want to come forward and say, I suck at Maths, and hate doing it, so I will probably not be partaking in that whole big fancy, "extra" step that Jerric is proposing. And I honestly want to put a caution out there that I highly doubt we should be spending that much time and effort working on just Messaging this game. Like LG7, I think the Messaging is going to act like the House Docs and just be a distraction for the villagers overall, meaning if most of our attention and effort is spend making these anonymous messages and crazy codes, that leaves way less time to be able to spend in thread, giving actual discussion and analysis of what's all gone down.

That's why I didn't even send out any messages myself last night, personally. There's nothing that I had to say to any one specific person yet, and we need to make sure we're actively participating in thread.

Also, Jerric, I would prefer if you could just post the code-number, to be safe, and I'll let you figure out something else to send if you want to try contact me again. But I would also like to point out - you confirmed sending that message to me, but could you actually explain why? I just noticed that you confirmed it, but then went on a whole side-step explanation of your over-the-top Messaging number verification system.
So I don't necesarrily suspect you, Serji, of being a Skybreaker right now, because that'd be pretty brazen to try reaching out to someone on the First Cycle like that, I will place a vote on you until you give an explanation for the nature of the message.

Edit: Redacted vote

Edited August 18, 2014 by Gamma Fiend

[Sir Jerric he/him]

Ah yes. That was the part I was trying to remember to include and could think of. Thank you for reminding me.

 

The original message had "(13)Famed Gamin," as it's opening line.

 

Why I sent the message:

One, talking is important.

Two, I'd never tried initiating a conversation in my previous games, so I wanted to try it this time.

Three, you and I had some rather amiable conversations in MR 1, so I thought you'd be a good selection.

Four, in MR 1, you turned out to be an Enemy Sharder, but I had caught on to that, so I hoped to get a read on you this time.

Five, in MR 1, you killed me with your fancy awakened Shardblade, and I thought it would be fun to reference that.

Six, I was sleepy enough at the time to think that presenting myself ambiguously would be amusing.

 

As it turns out, I think the message did it's job quite well. I can't think of any good reasons why you would post it publicly like that if you were a eliminator, so I am rather more inclined to the idea that we are on the same side this game.

 

Of course, if anyone else can think of a reason why Gamma might post that way as an eliminator, I'd love to know what I'm overlooking. =)

 

Have to leave for a couple more hours. Ta ta for now. =)

Edited August 17, 2014 by Sir Jerric

[Theorymaker he/him]

Tahrin had left his room early in the morning and had went down to the beach. He had just explored and found a couple of interesting rocks. Now Tahrin was looking at the ruby he had taken out of the fabrial. It had been cut in a way he had never seen before. Taking notes Tahrin decided he would have to show the ruby to someone who knows about gems.

 

I feel lucky. Having picked who I sent my message to randomly, probably no one picked the same person as me.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Theorymaker

[Tulir he/him]

Gamma, when you revealed that message, I saw two meanings. The rogue Radiants he could be talking about could either be Windrunners or Skybreakers, as I am sure both view the other as rogue. Now, Aladdin, any useful information to add?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Tulir

[Ashiok]

You had a cute lil message, Lord Tonul Venture... I wasted my night petitioning the Stormfather for highstorms because i couldn't think of anything better to do

[Metacognition he/him]

I think we're focusing too much on the messages and the messaging system. We have Serji's system in place for those that want to use it (While I might use the first part, I don't think I'll use the second. Seems like a lot of work for little gain. If you have a rapport built up enough with someone to be able to notice this code, then if they don't message you during a Cycle, there's a good chance the message was stolen anyways), so we need to move on from that.

 

I was hoping to get Lyce to come in and start talking with my early vote, but since it's been awhile now and no response, she's either lurking or really hasn't checked on. My two main suspects based on everything at this point are Serji and Quismet.

 

Quismet was pretty quick about getting back to Wyrm once a vote was thrown her way and while the coding for the messages does appear helpful, as Mallaw pointed out, this would've been a better topic for Day 1. It could be that the reason he waited to reveal it now was specifically to get us off topic or he might've had help planning it in a Doc...

My vote will probably go to one of them unless something else comes up or they can defend themselves adequately. 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Metacognition

[Ashiok]

GM?

Two questions. 

1. what happens if nobody has any votes on them at the end of the cycle?

2. If two people use full lashings on each other, what happens?

[Theorymaker he/him]

Tahrin made his way back to the Eye of the Storm hoping that his brother may have sent another letter.

 

No one's really talking. Probably because it is/was the weekend and people are busy. So everyone's talking about Messaging since everyone can do it and it was the only option yesterday. Of course we aren't going to find any bad guys with all this silence, so everyone start talking.

 

Vote Tally:

Jain (1): Wurum

Jeno (2): Tunnib

 

Jeno has two votes because:

 

All players that do not post anything in the thread for a cycle receive an extra vote against them for that cycle.

[Sir Jerric he/him]

I think we're focusing too much on the messages and the messaging system. We have Serji's system in place for those that want to use it (While I might use the first part, I don't think I'll use the second. Seems like a lot of work for little gain. If you have a rapport built up enough with someone to be able to notice this code, then if they don't message you during a Cycle, there's a good chance the message was stolen anyways), so we need to move on from that.

 

I was hoping to get Lyce to come in and start talking with my early vote, but since it's been awhile now and no response, she's either lurking or really hasn't checked on. My two main suspects based on everything at this point are Serji and Quismet.

 

Quismet was pretty quick about getting back to Wyrm once a vote was thrown her way and while the coding for the messages does appear helpful, as Mallaw pointed out, this would've been a better topic for Day 1. It could be that the reason he waited to reveal it now was specifically to get us off topic or he might've had help planning it in a Doc...

My vote will probably go to one of them unless something else comes up or they can defend themselves adequately. 

On day one, I posted to complain that no one was talking. I suggested that people consider the options present in the messaging action since for about 12 of the people in the game (assuming the 5 radiants and 2 henchmen model), that was the only thing to do on day one.

 

Among my suggestions were two schemes for baiting people. My first message falls into that category, in my opinion. Another suggestion was to use it mostly for PMing, and that seemed to be the popular view among responses.

Given that, I decided to give further consideration to my idea for adding security to the Messages. Excessive and overblown, completely unable to stop message stealing, but useful in various small ways.

I've already replied once to Mallaw's remark of "better on day one", but I didn't start designing it until late in the cycle after I got off work. The Number scheme was easy enough to debug, but it still went through three drafts before I posted it. The Signature scheme had some big holes, and I didn't get that debugged until less than six hours ago.

Sure, the system might have been easier to design with the more direct feedback of a doc, but I have a programming degree, and it was a fun exercise.

In summary, I did start this on day one, but I had limited real life time for rapid development cycles. And besides, the system is designed for just tossing it in if you want to. There is no harm done by adding it to a conversation five days down the line. The key benefits are that it becomes hard to insert a fake message into an existing conversation, and it is a little easier to catch the timing of a stolen message. The slow feedback of the Message system means that public discussion is far faster, but at the cost of revealing more information about your activity.

And if deploying it discourages liars from trying to send dishonest messages, excellent.

-----

Now that I've turned the message system inside out, and now that voting is a potential action, I am more than happy to move the conversation to people's content. As I said above, my message was a straight up ambiguity. That was a design feature. The reader has to make assumptions about my meaning, which also conceals my intent.

If people want my intentions, I am trying to use this kind of approach:

 

My original choice was to give the players limited or exclusive information. In the game of Werewolf, a standard elimination game, you have three tools at your disposal. The first is asking for information. The second is offering information. The third is lying. By giving limited information, and display information with in-narrative lists involving deductive reasoning and reading comprehension instead of the more clear and obvious out of game descriptions (which I eventually resorted to), I created additional space for people to use these tools.

However, in practice, no one seemed to use them. It took until the third day before people began to request information about other players, and began to reveal information about themselves (or lie about it). The dynamic developed much more slowly than I anticipated, and this is probably a combination of people being unfamiliar with the format, people being unwilling to take risks with limited information, and the fast pace of the game events.

At one point, Nepene linked a post saying "We're basically voting at random, we have no choice but to lose". Of course, this was not true. There was no need to vote at random. There was a need for the Innocents to actively search for information about the other players - inactivity is most helpful to the Eliminators, in all cases. That's the core of the game. In a forum scenario, with the above factors, communication became more difficult.

*emphasis added*

I wrote to Gamma, offering information (obscurely), to see what manner of reaction I would get. I believe that his reaction implies "good guy" alignment. I'm currently offering a huge amount of information in this post and in my other ones. I'm also asking for information in regards to feedback on my message system and on other people's reactions to Gamma's reaction to me.

Things I am analyzing include who is seems to desire more PM security (they might be feeling the lack of doc access), and who talks down the system (they might have plans for the Reverse Lashing and feel threatened). I only promote the messaging system as an oblique method of reading people. (Now I'm daring people to move on to other topics under threat of subtle self-exposures. Mwahahah! Ahem.)

The third tool I threw in a waste bin many years ago, in another lifetime, and I'm not going to try finding another copy. You can question this if you wish, but the proof is in my play history.

Am I laying too many cards on the table? Maybe. I'm still rather new at this. But I have a pile of index cards handy, so I can make new cards if I need to. =D

 

Tomorrow I'll be busy until just before the end of cycle. I might place a vote before bed though, if I see something interesting enough.

 

Oh, and Theorymaker? Gamma still has a vote placed on me up there. Post #22.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Sir Jerric