Mid-Range Game 2: Servants of Honor

[Renegade he/him]

GM?

Two questions. 

1. what happens if nobody has any votes on them at the end of the cycle?

2. If two people use full lashings on each other, what happens?

 

1. If nobody has more than one vote against them at the end of the cycle, there will be no lynch. Same as if there are two or more players with the same number of votes against them.

 

2. All of both players' actions would be cancelled. (Recall, however, that Messaging cannot be cancelled by a Full Lashing.)

 

Anyway, there's less than 24 hours left in the cycle, so make sure you get your actions in!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Renegade

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Serji, that plan is amazing, but honestly, I don't really understand all of it. It seems like too much work for messaging. If we focus on this thread the messaging isn't as vital anyways.

My vote, for now, goes to Quismet because she lurked until right after she had an accusation, at which point, she replied quickly. I suspect that because I did the same thing in LG7. Meta accused me and I popped on and defended myself. I tried not to do so after that point, but it feels like a skaa Eliminator strategy. I would know.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

The Famed Gamin triumphantly strode through the town, carrying a handful of messages he had anonymously received the prior night -- anonymous because even though half of them were signed, he couldn't be exactly sure who sent them.

I always knew I was important, he thought with a shrug, but I didn't think I was this important! He saw a man walking in front of him, quietly muttering to himself, and he realized he recognized the person. It was that odd man that liked to sign his name backwards on things. Stealthily sneaking up on him, The Famed Gamin used his worldwide famous skills and pickpocketed the man, stealing yet another pathetic pouch of spheres.

He frowned. Was there anybody in this storming town who actually had money?

Either way, he realized he had at least enough for a quick, hot meal over at the Eye of The Storm tavern, so he sauntered his way over there, his stomach growling, and his mouth already salivating at the prospect of another full dinner. When you lived out on the streets, you ate what you had to to survive. Shuddering, The Famed Gamin the few months he had spent in the western reaches of Alethela, begging and making ends meet in the mountains over that way. Even he hadn't been as desperate to eat the horns and rocks those weird folk liked to cook and consume.

No, Madame Quimset's delectable food was much tastier. He entered the tavern, oblivious to the events that had gone down in there earlier in the day. He noticed the man known as Serji standing around, trying to convince people to use his ingenious code to try and trick the Skybreakers. Unimpressed, The Famed Gamin decided to take his own look around to see what he had missed.

"Uh....," he slowly said, trying to grab everybody's attention with his quiet interjection. "...What do those three scratches mean?"
--------------------

Heh, needed some way to mention Serji to retract my vote for him. His explanation is adequate enough for right now to take my main focus off of him for now (although I'll still be keeping an eye on you, no offense), but other than that, I don't have any main suspicions right now. Maybe start putting some pressure on the inactives, just to make sure that nobody is trying to hide among them? I know this sub-forum has been having a bit of a staggered attendance lately, and it is about that time of the year where people start having real-life stuff take over forum activity, but since this is a MR game, we should take advantage of the extra-incentive against inactivity. Even if they're not Eliminators, we can start getting rid of people who aren't participating, and thus, not helping out too much.

Also, that bit about the three scratches...... does that mean the Stormfather (GM) has some highstorms planned for us?

Edit:  *The Famed Gamin waves his hand:*These are not the color-changes you are looking for.
 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Gamma Fiend

[Mailliw73 he/him]

The three-scratch thing did sound the same to me, Gamma.

Mallaw awoke to an empty letter box. No one had decided he was worthy of their attention last night? That was fine by him. With his cowl and bow and two knives, he knew he intimidated people. It didn't help that he didn't interact with the people in the town as much as normal. He knew how to stay hidden. It was one of his many skills. Ten years he had played the games of these people. Once he had killed for it. Now he would kill those who claimed Justice on innocent people. Paliadin had been his friend. He would have revenge.

[Ashiok]

I think it means highstorms... I did ask for them as my message, so it wouldn't surprise me...

Also, let's leave no votes on anybody. That easy, nobody gets lynched today...

[Aonar he/him]

Your idea looks really cool, but I think there might be a simpler means for verification, Jerric. To borrow your setup and assistants:
 

 

Beth,

I like your hair.

Sincerely,
Alex

 
Nothing's changed yet, obviously.
 

 

Alex,

What does my hair have to do with this game?

Irritably,
Beth the Grumpy(329)

 
Now, we have confirmation that this is the same person who received the message (if it was not posted openly). This is approximately the same as your system so far, simply a touch less complex. The numbers logically reference a particular letter in the message. Third word, second letter, ninth letter of the alphabet.

 

 

(4125)Beth,

Your tresses are long enough for the henchmen to braid. What else?

Cordially,
Alex the Inconceivable(335)

 
This confirms that this person is the sender and receiver of previous messages.

If a message gets stolen, it's easy enough to tell, as the original PM number will be wrong. The only way this can be beaten (and I believe yours can be worked around this way as well) is by sending a message under a false name the first cycle, then Reverse Lashing the person you're pretending to be every cycle. This is a ton of work for relatively little benefit, however, so I doubt the Skybreakers will actually pull this off. 
 
In essence, this is actually the exact same system, it just requires less math, for those of us who dislike that sort of thing. 

 
Feel free to point out any inconsistencies here, but I think this system would be a touch easier to put in place.

 

 

Anyway, we really need to get focused on what we're going to do with this cycle. At the moment, we seem to be lynching Joe. Is this the best course of action? He hasn't even been on the site since the game started. If he is a Skybreaker/Henchman, he's not being much help to them.

 

Our other main suspect (i.e., persons who have had more than one vote on them) seems to be Quismet. I'll confirm that she messaged me last cycle. My gut feeling says that one of the three people who messaged me last cycle was an Eliminator. No way to confirm of course, and I don't feel strongly enough to put down a vote myself yet, but I'll be watching to see what happens.

Edited August 18, 2014 by AonarFaileas

[Metacognition he/him]

Wow, well said, Serji and all that is hard to argue with right now. It could be an elaborate, well-thought-out gambit, but I don't think so. That leaves Quismet that I'd like to hear from. 

Also, Twlv? I see you constantly checking in, but you haven't said much of anything yet. If we're going to find the Skybreakers, we need all the information we can get, so speak up, cause your lurking bit is making me suspicious. 

[Sir Jerric he/him]

This cycle has not yet seen posts from Jeno, Kaladen, and Lyce.

 

@ Aonar: interesting system idea, but lacks a bit in internal consistency in this draft.

(3210) - l i k e - ( i ) is usually the ninth letter - (329) perhaps?

(4125) - m y - ( m ) is the thirteenth letter - (4225) or (4113)?

(335) - l i k e - ( k ) is the eleventh letter - (345) or (3311)?

One of the keys to a good system is making sure that people are consistent in applying it. Of course, foolproof design is impossible, but such is life. Your example dropped the sequence number part, which also costs you the ambiguous announcements and two-step verification, but I'll admit, the math is more accessible. Would you propose extending that to referring to all previous messages with multiple numbers in each signature?

 

Also, a more significant hole: All Lashings have a one cycle cool-down, so if you threw in an extra message on the off day, you'd discover the fake. Not to mention if people use the more obvious tricks of subtle references to messages in their public posts ("Use the word 'terrible' in the thread to acknowledge.").

 

Made myself an Aonar-esque diagram, but there isn't much on there yet. I don't know how much use it will be, but I thought I'd try. This lack of doc discussion for the Skybreakers will hopefully lead to some interesting dynamics. Random reverse lashings could be useful just for the chance to cut / delay their communications, even if the information is concealed in some sneaky way. The base game for the village should be seeing these messages as a perk, but the eliminators are only slightly better off than in QF 2 (temporary doc, interceptable.messages).

[Wyrmhero he/him]

No-one else other than Mailliw voted within the last 24 hours? He's got the right idea, guys, as have Gamma and Meta. The rest of you are letting yourselves be distracted by this little minigame. We shouldn't have to rely on PMing to feel people out, that's what the voting system is for - and none of you are taking part in it.

 

While it's good that he's voting, I'm sure I agree with Mailliw's accusation though. From what I know of her from LG7, QC is very busy, and has to take time to play these games when she can. While I agree that popping up immediately like that is a little suspicious, I don't think she's acting that odd currently.

 

My vote for Jain still stands, as he just commented on his not using of the messaging system, nothing to do with the plan, what people have said so far, suspicions or anything like that. I suppose it is at least consistent with his character...

 

Bah, if something more is discussed about votes, I might change it, if there's good arguments or the like. For the moment though, I might as well keep it there considering there's nothing else really going on with this. Come on guys, start discussing!

 

Remember, every cycle we don't at least talk about who to vote for is another two kills in this game. It's even more dangerous to not talk than normal.

 

I really should RP at some point, come to think of it. Maybe I'll post something later today.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Binnut he/him]

Jerric, are you possibly in the Computer science field? Much of that is very similar to the Communication security I know.

I will probably try the message system, but I will probably use simpler (crude) ways if I just think I will send one message.

I did not realize that Jeno already had a vote because he haven't posted this cycle. He has been online by now though, But reading this through takes (some) time, so it is very possible that he haven't had time to read it yet.

Both Lyce and Kaladen has also been online this morning (forum time), so they also have been able to post something. Kaladen and Jeno were actually online about the same time.

It is quite possible that QC was doing the same and then posted, but I will assume that is not it for a while.

That said, I voted Jeno to try to get him to answer, that did not work. But let's try some more...

I'm reytracting Jeno, for a while, and ask Kaladen if he has anything to say.

Edit: I would still like to hear from Jeno.

Edit: retracted.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Binnut

[twelfthrootoftwo]

(Apologies in advance for any incoherence, it's late and I'm tired.) 

Also, Twlv? I see you constantly checking in, but you haven't said much of anything yet. If we're going to find the Skybreakers, we need all the information we can get, so speak up, cause your lurking bit is making me suspicious. 

I'm procrastinating from doing assignments. If I were to post in those visits, it'd be a throwaway line or two, not worth the time it takes to read (or write). If you'd prefer, I can avoid coming on until I'm ready to sit down and decide what to say.

-----

Since I don't really have anything to push in the way of suspicions at the moment, I'm going to ask a question. A lot of you are going to think it's really stupid, and I'm probably an idiot for not having figured out the answer.

Why do we want to lynch inactive players?

I would understand if it was presented as clearing away a hiding spot for eliminators. Or if it was purely a method for getting some discussion happening. Or if the threat of lynching is intended to make them active. But the latter two are purely about information - there's no advantage to going through with the lynch. And the former doesn't seem to come up as often as a straight 'lynch the inactive.'

Once the game has started, they're just one more (or one less) player the eliminators need to kill to win. Since they can't contribute to their team, they become (in a sense) a meat shield, which is statistically more likely to be on the village side. There's not much gained or lost by killing them.

Lynching them also reveals little information compared to participating players, though it does minimise long-term information loss. The relative values of these two aspects seem to depend on the projected length of the game, so it's most advantageous to do so in long games, not the quick ones where it seems to be brought up more.

Clearly I have this completely wrong. What part of the rationale am I missing?

[Wyrmhero he/him]

We don't want to lynch inactive players - at least, those who are actually inactive. It's about calling them out to get them to stop being inactive and contribute to the discussion if possible, as silence is the most dangerous thing for us.

 

More generally, it's useful to call out active-but-not-posting players, that is, those who have been reading or have been on the forum but haven't contributed yet this cycle. An Eliminator would love to have things progressing in such a way as to not have to do anything, because giving away less information is good for them.

 

If people don't have a reason to defend their actions, then they simply won't. Admittedly, calling out people who are actually inactive won't help much, but it's a way to try and get them to say something at least. The quicker people respond, the better. Sometimes calling people out like this can have great rewards, such as in LG5, but I agree that sometimes people are just inactive. It's still a useful way to check though, particularly if a player does not respond to accusations but remains semi-active in the game.

 

You're also right about inactives (usually) being Villagers, because Eliminators are more Invested (haha!) in the game. However, the problem we're trying to counter is when you have thread-inactives, where Eliminators hide in the inactive players but still send in actions. Without any information on them, and no way to see if a player is actually not inactive other than people randomly seeing them reading the thread, we have no real reason to think about or accuse them. So the idea is to get people who are thread-inactive to speak up and give the Eliminators less room to hide.

 

Though speaking of them being a 'meat-shield' for us, that may not be so true here. Remember that anyone who doesn't post in the thread has an extra vote on them automatically. This could mean that they are targets later on in the game for Eliminators to try and kill, to derail votes placed against their players (though I would hope a bandwagon on an inactive would be noticed). It's also important to note that they aren't one more player the Eliminators need to kill to win, in this game. The game ends when both Windrunners and the Truthwatcher or all the Eliminators are dead.

 

Unless a Windrunner/Truthwatcher/Eliminator is hiding within the inactives (or is actually inactive), the presence of inactives is going to have no effect on the game at all other than to possibly be lynch-derailers with their automatic extra vote.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Metacognition he/him]

I'm on my phone, so please excuse any typos.

You have it about right, Twlv. With so many tricks that have been pulled with lurking (like what Fain and I did last game), we need to try to stop any tricks like that as early as possible. While it might be someone using it for the good faction, it could just as easily be the evil faction using it for their own gains.

The other factor is the information. As you said, in quicker games, we need all the information we can get and those inactives aren't providing any. At least, if we lynch them, we get SOME information out of them, but the bigger bit is just too get them talking. An empty threat doesn't work though. You need to actually put some pressure on them.

It's a trade-off. If we lynch someone that's actively helping, we discourage people to be as active, but we stand a better chance at hitting an active skybreaker. But if we're wrong, then we've lost someone that could've been incredibly useful.

If we lynch an inactive, we get less information and we're less likely to hit a more useful skybreaker, but we have more time to figure out who is lying to us.

So the moral of this whole bit (and I hope it's coherent. I don't like trying to do complex thoughts on my phone) is STAY ACTIVE! I feel like a broken record, but if we're ever going to win a QF or a MR, we need everyone to help out as much as possible!

[Tulir he/him]

Here is a vote tally for all those who want one:

Quismet(1): Mallaw

Jain(1): Wurum

Jeno(2): Tunnib

 

Edit:Updated again

Edited August 18, 2014 by Tulir

[+Quitecontrary she/her]

I want to just say thank you to Wyrm for the vote of confidence and the explanation on my behalf. I am very busy, as he said, doing workshops across the country and the last days have been particularly exhausting. For example, I got back to my hotel 5 hours ago after being on the road for 14 hours straight, then training for a whole day.

First thing I did was open my tab to this game to see what has happened, saw some suspicions thrown on my name, and was going to respond, but fell asleep. Mind is willing, but the body is weak. Just woke up and saw more suspicions thrown, which as early as now I would say as wrong because I'm just an innkeeper on the side of Good.

The only reason I can offer Maill for responding to Wyrm's initial accusation right away is that like any player, I would defend when threatened. It just so happened I was available at the time, stopped my driver just to respond (which puzzled him till now), and still didn't have any information at all to comment prior to that point.

I did say I sent one message and that is just to reach out Faisan (Aonar). Why him? I thought against it at first, because of his general team evilness in the last game, but I was inclined to reach out to experienced players. I thought Meta, Gamma and Wyrm would be assailed with messages so I chose Aonar. Seems that I should have chosen Meta instead.

I don't know how people can just jump to conclusions without a lot of information. I do try to take time to play eventhough it's hard to find the time, but I don't know that I can apply complicated math on my messages, or even analyze and theorize with what little data I have at this point.

Besides, lynching the hand that feeds the town at this point and provides, eherm, entertainment, is very unwise, don't you think?

[Theorymaker he/him]

Both Kaladen and Jeno have valid reasons for being inactive that they posted before the game started, but Lyce so far doesn't have a reason. So Lyce do come on and defend yourself.

 

The fact that some of the villagers who might be Skybreakers were missing worried Tahrin. He spoke up asking where one of the missing villagers were, but no one knew. So after checking if he had any new letters Tahrin left the tavern still looking for a gem specialist.

[Binnut he/him]

Both Kaladen and Jeno have valid reasons for being inactive that they posted before the game started, but Lyce so far doesn't have a reason. So Lyce do come on and defend yourself.

...

Oh, I had no memory of that, but you're right! Kaladen.  Sorry guys!

 

Edit: Punctuation.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Binnut

[Ashiok]

"His Storms will soon come, and bring with them much strife. The Stormfather comes in three notches!"Aladdin exclaimed, "Do you concur, Mr. Smuggling Stormwarden, sir?"

 

"No, you silly boy. He will probably come in two days. how could that possibly relate to three notches? Did your mother never teach you maths?" Wurum asked him.

 

"She died giving birth to me... I'm wondering if you could teach me your smart person ways? You could be like my second mother!"

 

I'm gonna offer you some RP Wyrm. I'll go first, and the rest is up to you for now.

 

EDIT: Is that better Wyrm?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Ashiok

[Binnut he/him]

About Kaladen and Jeno, they do have valid stated reasons for being inactive, but they have been online earlier today. I will not vote for them because of that, but I would very much like to hear from them since they actually have been online.

[luckat she/her]

Sorry I didn’t post earlier. I’ve been busy. I meant to post when I was online yesterday, but I got pulled away. Also, I didn’t want to post when I hadn’t read the thread and had nothing to add.

I like Serji’s system to add to messages, but that’s been discussed enough in the thread already. The game’s probably not going to last long enough to really feel people out with PMs, unless we get lucky with an early Skybreaker death. If there’s ways to sabotage eliminator attempts to communicate, or aid Windrunner attempts, those might be good to discuss, but since it’s so late in the cycle and messages have already been discussed a lot, it might be best to let them rest for a bit. (I’m not doing a very good job of avoiding the distraction of message discussion, am I?)

I think activity checking is becoming a distraction too. It’s an easy place for eliminators to hide. They can pretend to be voicing suspicions when they’re just following an established trend and going for easy targets. Encouraging activity is important, but Metam had the right idea when he moved on from it give his thoughts about what had happened in the thread (and I’m not saying that just because he was retracting a vote for me). This late in the cycle, voting for inactives isn’t likely to add to the discussion.

There have only been a few suspicions voiced that don’t only have to do with inactivity. Here’s my thoughts on them.
I think Serji’s defense is good enough.
I don’t think Quismet is as suspicious as some of you are making her out to be. If a relatively quick response to an activity-check vote is suspicious, what are those votes for? An eliminator might be quicker to respond, but that depends entirely on the person and what they are currently busy with. And since Wurum seemed to be voting for her then because he thought she might respond quickly, I don’t really get everyone’s response.

As for my personal suspicions, I haven’t had much time to form them. Hopefully I’ll be able to think things through more before the cycle ends. I would like to hear from some of the people who have posted but didn't say much though.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Wurum gave Aladdin a long-suffering look, before raising his hand. He snapped his fingers in the direction of his business associates, and pointed at Aladdin. "I am being irritated when I am trying to work," he said. "Take care of him for me - But be gentle, since he's an orphan." Though he never mentioned his father, he was probably an orphan already. If not, then he was probably about to be. Certainly Wurum wouldn't let the man get away with siring the brat. "Oh, and beat him a little for insinuating that I would ever break the Highprince's laws like that."

 

As Aladdin was picked up by the scruff of the neck and thrown out of his office, Wurum went back to his charts. That was two people claiming to be contacted by the Stormfather. He didn't know which of Aladdin's or Metam's claims were more fantastical, but it didn't matter. While it was true that the next Highstorm seemed to be particularly bad from what he could estimate, there was no need to panic like these two seemed to be doing. Besides, the idea of the Stormfather contacting anyone other than the village Stormwarden with news of a Highstorm was absurd!

 

He looked up to where his business partners were sitting back down, along the sides of the big table. He didn't acknowledge them, but went back to his writing. He liked doing that. It unnerved them all, to see a man capable of putting anything more to a page than a gylph. Even gylphs were bad enough, though. Sometimes he wondered how lesser minds like them could live like that, but perhaps there was truth to the phrase that ignorance was bliss. They were dumb muscle, through and through. But then, that was what he paid them for anyway, so it wasn't as though he expected more.

 

"Has anyone seen Simir recently?" he asked eventually. "I have some friends that insist on being wrong and won't be convinced otherwise."

 

"No boss," one of the goons shook his head. "Not for about a week."

 

Wurum sighed. Storms take the man. He was effective at his job, since no-one could remain coherent near Simir and his odor, but Damnation he was as unreliable as he was stupid. "Fine, I'll find someone else. In the mean time, the rest of you search for these Skybreakers. I want them found as soon as possible. I don't care who you ask or how 'polite' you have to be, just find them."

 

Thanks, I guess? Though I'd prefer it if you didn't Americanise my character like that. Or, you know, asked before using him at all.

 

Also, luckat, with regards to your point about me voting for Quismet because I thought she might respond quickly, it's more that I'm trying to accuse people who are usually on around the same time as me. Hence QC, Jain, and I'd have probably voted for you this morning if Jain had been a little more forthcoming with his thoughts yesterday.

 

I suppose now we're near the end, the question is whether we do actually want to lynch someone today or not. I'm of the opinion that we should, because we don't really gain anything from not lynching. However, having said that, I am not sure about whether anyone is suspicious enough this early on.

 

I am less suspicious of the people who received a lot of PMs - Gamma and Aonar. This is just because the Eliminators didn't need to PM each other in the first cycle. But at the same time, the sheer number they each received is something I find strange, particularly when Meta and Mailliw didn't get any (or claim to). For what it's worth, I received none last cycle as well. But I am curious as to why those two were picked over the other experienced players to such a degree. What were peoples' reasonings?

 

But in general, I don't know who to actually vote for this Cycle that I would like to see lynched, because it's so early on in the game. Currently though, I wouldn't mind hearing a bit from Jeno, since he's on the topic right now. Also, if you think someone who contacted you was an Eliminator, Aonar (since you're also online right now), then would you consider sharing with the class? Or at least PM it to someone tonight that you trust, so it's not lost if you die.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Ashiok]

Sorry Wyrm...

Question: Americanize? where did I do that? (genuine question)

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Sorry Wyrm...

Question: Americanize? where did I do that? (genuine question)

You had his character say "math". Everywhere else they call it "maths" (plural), I guess.

 

[Binnut he/him]

I will admit that I have posts in number, but not in content. I find it hard to find much that is suspicious at the moment, so I have mostly taken it upon myself to try to try to get people to at least post something. I have just one note on that subject, and then I'll leave it. Jeno was reading the Topic when I posted last, and now he is offline again.

 

Anyway, the whole thing with QC. I find the accusations reasonable, and the defense so can't really make up my mind. When it comes to Serji, I find myself more trusting than regarding most others because of the effort he put into the message system.

 

I can confess to being one of the persons that messaged Gamma, It was mostly because I wanted to contact one of the experienced, and because I had some contact with in the Darkfriend doc when he was GM. I do find it strange that some of the Experienced players did not receive any Messages and am wondering if one are lying, but what I do not know is why they would, since there is no gain to them as I see it, and a great risk of someone claiming that it is a lie.

 

I'm not sure if we should lynch someone or not right now, but if we do... I think Jeno is the top of my list in that case, since he has had he has been on this topic. He could at least left a notice of not having time to read it all. 

 

I guess that I'm gonna even it out by voting Jeno, so that someone else can decide in target in case you want to lynch someone.

Good night guys!

[Wyrmhero he/him]

You had his character say "math". Everywhere else they call it "maths" (plural), I guess.

 

Bingo. Also, aren't you going to say any more, Gamma? About, you know, anything? >>

 

Edit: 8 players here currently. We'd better be able to get some discussion going.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Wyrmhero