Mid-Range Game 4: The Alethi War of Unification

[Newan he/him]

So my top suspects based on actual halfway logical analysis then would be: Newan

 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Also, as of this moment I am officially announcing that I don't suspect Wilson!  I wonder if the eliminators are trying to slowly build distrust of her, without directly pointing fingers.  But then again, the times I have been an eliminator I was never that subtle.  So maybe people really are just that wary of her.  I know I was, during the Wheel of Time game.  But she's just so darn nice!

[little wilson she/her]

Wilson, I was thinking the same thing about what Kas said - it does seem rather suspicious. His logic is sound, and very similar to why I thought Ash may have been targeted - but him pointing it out is like saying "hey other spies, this is why I targeted Ash - try to follow my idea".

We'll see what he has to say in regards to his defense.

As far as you go Wilson, everyone is always going to assume you're evil - you scare the crem out of us when you are.

Aw. Another quote for my evil rep doc. (Yes. I've created an evil rep/threat doc with all the comments people say about me.)

 

More seriously, though, I expect suspicion. Not necessarily for people to assume that I'm evil, but for there to be that possibility and for them to be less likely to trust what I say. I get that. That's what I have to deal with for being a little too good at being an eliminator. But there are times that I'm good, and if everyone is assuming I'm evil, that could end up with me lynched simply because people were worried that I might be an eliminator and even if they weren't sure, the fact that I could be and if I were, it would be bad. I don't like that logic. Threat-kills aren't a good idea for Team Good. However, if I'm being suspicious, lynch me. Lynch me good. I deserve it.

 

As for Kas. It's good to know my mind was not deceiving me. Particularly since I read that soon after I woke up from a Sleep of Death.....

 

Wilson Okay, you've convinced me. I meant myself as harmless and people leading the discussion should be the ones we were suspicious of. I knew I should have been a little more clear. And what I've heard in the discussion of you...

You frighten me. You really do. 

 

Yeah, I realized that a bit after I posted. I ended up having one of my friends read it and I'm like "Tell me what you think she's saying. Because I don't get it." And that's pretty much what she said. Which I can understand. Although I wouldn't say that I'm leading the discussion, per se, just because I'm the most talkative. I'm trying to encourage discussion, yes, because discussion is the best way to figure things out: see what doesn't match up. In pretty much every single game where people don't discuss, Team Good loses. Especially in the ones with limited/no PMs. I don't want to lose. Hence, discussion.

 

Plus, like I said, I figured I'd die when I signed up for this game, so while I normally hang back a little bit in terms of in-thread discussion (seriously. Go look at my number of posts for past games. If I continue at this rate, I'm going to blow even most of my long games out of the water), there wasn't much point in trying that this game, so why not try to get discussion flowing and see what comes out? It can't really make me any more of a target than I already am...

 

Even after you knew you were on the Kill-on-Sight list?

 

Both Wilson and Odysa's votes are weird to me. Odysa particularly feels wrong. Wilson, my current suspicions have been relieved, but of course, not completely. Odysa voted for Wilson because she talks a lot and then retracted it easily and quickly. That's just too weird to me, but I want to give her a chance to defend herself.s

 

I mean more the rep that I'm someone people want to trust, but they know they shouldn't. More the first part than the second. I knew people thought I was really good, and they were scared of me when I'm on team evil. I didn't realize people instinctively want to trust me. That is the shocker.

 

Also, as of this moment I am officially announcing that I don't suspect Wilson!  I wonder if the eliminators are trying to slowly build distrust of her, without directly pointing fingers.  But then again, the times I have been an eliminator I was never that subtle.  So maybe people really are just that wary of her.  I know I was, during the Wheel of Time game.  But she's just so darn nice!

 

I wouldn't make a habit of that first sentence. It could backfire on you in future games. Just saying.

 

If the eliminators are trying to build distrust toward me, they're doing a shoddy job and they picked the wrong target. I understand why I'd look appealing for a gambit like that. Clearly people are hesitant to trust me. But it's going to be harder than they think to actually get people convinced I'm an eliminator. I'll fight to the death to clear my name, particularly when I'm being wrongly accused. While I said I don't care if people trust me or not, that lack of care doesn't extend to the time votes start piling on.

 

.....what do you know: a statement I can't add to that doc. Although that does present an interesting dichotomy. I'm instinctively evil, but I'm nice. Hm.....I think I will put that on the doc, actually. Just because.

 

I need to stop writing novels masquerading as posts....

[Mailliw73 he/him]

That wasn't a good idea, Odysa. That's what got Jain and Ash killed so early on in their first games. Randomness doesn't help anyone. If you aren't making any sense or reason, you are going to get yourself killed.

[Eolhondras he/him]

 

I'll give you guys a bit of a clue: I haven't tried to manipulate once in this game. 

 

 

At the risk of sounding like an eliminator trying to bring suspicion upon Wilson, I thought I’d go back and see if I could find some of this manipulation. Mostly I agree with that, (maybe because there is none, or maybe because I’m too feeble minded to find it) but there was one post that bugged me. Particularly since you have called out Kas on potential eliminator strategizing.

 

The one where you called attention to the vote switching and band wagoning and so on in cycle 1. It could definitely be plausible that you only mentioned it as a warning to eliminators about what actions might be considered suspicious, and then saying that since you have brought this up, they might abstain from voting or keep in the middle votes. That could be seen as a suggestion on how to stay inconspicuous.

 

Your reasoning for bringing this up, in that you would make a good target and would die early, is sound I think, so I am in no way convinced of any guilt. Though as you are not dead, and if Kas’s ‘plan’ remains the way eliminators are choosing their targets, you won’t be for a while, so I thought it something relevant to bring up.

 

 

Now. I am inclined to agree that Kas’s post seems off, in exactly the same manner as the one about vote switching did, though he still hasn’t been able to defend himself so I will wait for further comment.

 

 

As to Odysa’s vote, it did seem desperate, but more desperately bored with nothing happening than desperately trying to silence someone who was speaking against them. I’m thinking she is just trying to make things happen. Something I am not entirely against.

[Renegade he/him]

Hmm... Well, I think that this upcoming battle should give us a better indication of who is good and who isn't.  One loyal player will get a Shardblade, after all.

 

Anyway, suspicions and votes...

 

I have a few arguments against Wilson right now, none of which are actually due to her past Eliminator-ness.  However, most of the arguments I tried to make aren't very conclusive when put on paper.  And actually, most of my valid suspicions were summed up in Eolhandras' post.  But the evidence so far is nothing too incriminating; only time will be able to tell the truth.

 

I really don't know what to make of Kas.  It could be that he is the Wit, or he's a Spy, or neither.  (Wow, that was a helpful statement. )

 

I will say that all of the suspicion being placed on Odysa is a bit odd.  Yes, there may be a few oddities in her posts, but I really don't think that this so-called "erraticness" (which I really don't think it is) is an indicator of suspicion.  In previous games, this has simply been an Eliminator scapegoat, and in all honesty, Odysa is helping to move along discussion a lot more than most of the other players at this time.  With the nature of the opposing Spy groups in this game, it'd make sense for the Eliminators to hide in the shadows.  (That said, that doesn't mean I'm not keeping an eye on Odysa as well, as I imagine somebody's going to accuse me of defending Odysa in this post or something.)

 

And with that in mind, I'm voting for Karlin.  Her utter silence seems awfully like what Twei did in MR 3.  Although, now that I think of it, there are a lot of quiet people in this game.  If you're reading this and haven't posted at least twice this cycle: SAY SOMETHING!!!

 

Sadly, this post wasn't nearly as bloodthirsty as I was planning, nor did it have any poetry, as it would've been way too difficult.   Oh well, good enough.

[little wilson she/her]

Maill, I don't think she's doing it to be random or anything. I think she's backtracking to fall back to what we're used to seeing from her: roleplay.
 
The question is, why? I figure she probably thinks it will lower the suspicion on her, which is something she's never really particularly cared about in past games. So why does she care now? The answer to this is the driving force of my vote on her. Her playstyle is different this game. Different not in a way of someone trying something new. It's different in a way that seems particularly suited to an eliminator in her position. She's played 3 games previously, the first 2 of which she was killed early on. The last one, she survived the entire game. The fact that she survived means that either she'd adapted her playstyle and it was working, or we'd gotten used to her particular brand of randomness. Personally, I think it was a combination of both.
 
So why is she suddenly worried about her mortality? She survived the last game she played. But just yesterday, she was frantic and wanted pointers on how to play better. Why? Because she'd just been called out and she desperately doesn't want to die. Why? Again, she's accrued votes in the past, and she's never remotely acted this way. So what's different this time? The most obvious solution is that she's an eliminator.
 
And really, this explains quite a few things. In all three prior games, she was an active poster. In the first two, she did a cross between RP and voting. In the third, there was less voting, but still, there was a lot of RP. She said she's not as familiar with Roshar. Okay. But she didn't really stay world-based in the Steelheart game either. Her character there seemed to end up with a spike or something very similar, which doesn't work with the world. So I don't really buy that explanation. Especially since she hasn't been voting either (or hadn't been). She put a second vote on Jasnah, and then never removed it after Jasnah posted. While she had an excuse for this, and that excuse may have been valid, I can't help but wonder what she would've said if I hadn't removed my vote. Jasnah would've been lynched. Was she secretly hoping that would happen?
 
When she's been accused in past games, either she's immediately posted a retaliation vote (the Rithmatist game) or she's mostly just ignored the votes on her, and accused someone else very single-mindedly (LG9). She's did neither here initially. She attempted trolling at first, and when that didn't work, she got frantic, possibly hoping to garner pity, and when that didn't work, then she posted the retaliation vote, using very weak logic to support her vote.
 
And now, she's RPing. Nothing else she's tried has worked, so she's falling back on what's worked in the past. The problem is that she's digging herself in deeper. She's not addressing what initially made her suspicious in the first place. And now she's got so much to counter, I'm not sure how she's going to do it.
 
Odysa, just in case you really are good, I'd advise you to explain your motives. In detail. Very clear detail. I don't want to push for a lynch on you if you're actually on Team Good. I've never enjoyed doing that, and I've always been one to give people an out if I can. So please. If you're good, explain.
 
 
And now, so as not to double post, since Eolhondras posted while I was writing this.

At the risk of sounding like an eliminator trying to bring suspicion upon Wilson, I thought I’d go back and see if I could find some of this manipulation. Mostly I agree with that, (maybe because there is none, or maybe because I’m too feeble minded to find it) but there was one post that bugged me. Particularly since you have called out Kas on potential eliminator strategizing.
 
The one where you called attention to the vote switching and band wagoning and so on in cycle 1. It could definitely be plausible that you only mentioned it as a warning to eliminators about what actions might be considered suspicious, and then saying that since you have brought this up, they might abstain from voting or keep in the middle votes. That could be seen as a suggestion on how to stay inconspicuous.
 
Your reasoning for bringing this up, in that you would make a good target and would die early, is sound I think, so I am in no way convinced of any guilt. Though as you are not dead, and if Kas’s ‘plan’ remains the way eliminators are choosing their targets, you won’t be for a while, so I thought it something relevant to bring up.
 
 
Now. I am inclined to agree that Kas’s post seems off, in exactly the same manner as the one about vote switching did, though he still hasn’t been able to defend himself so I will wait for further comment.
 
 
As to Odysa’s vote, it did seem desperate, but more desperately bored with nothing happening than desperately trying to silence someone who was speaking against them. I’m thinking she is just trying to make things happen. Something I am not entirely against.

I'm very familiar with the I Know You Know gambit, so that was me addressing that possibility--the fact that I'm mentioned it means they might not do it, because they know we'll be looking for it. So they might do the opposite. So I threw the opposite down as well. I was trying to be as balanced as I could with my plan at the time.

 

As for why I even said my deal about vote switching and watching the votes in the first place. I legitimately thought I was going to die. If I were an eliminator, I would've been targeting the players who were most likely to be good, so as not to hit a potential teammate. I'm playing this game differently than I play when I'm evil. That's mostly shown through my activity. I'm being way too talkative, especially after last game. By that point in the game when I suggested the vote switching, I'd also made a few comments that could very well be construed as my being Dalinar-aligned. It's understandable that a number of people did not take those at face value, but eliminators are going to see those statements and use that knowledge. So when that possible eliminator strategy occurred to me, yeah. I was pretty sure I was going to die. So I wanted to get the plan I had out there so it might possibly be of some use to Team Good.

 

Also, I just want to note that we've only seen one spy team's kill. It appears that this team might be following Kas' strategy. They could also be indifferent to who they kill, and simply wanted to kill someone who wouldn't give us anything to go off of. But still. That's only one team. Who's to say the other team(s) isn't(aren't) going to use a different strategy? We can't just assume that they're all going to use Kas' until we see who their targets are. And we'll be seeing that at the end of this cycle. I'm not in the clear yet, and I know it. I'm a threat, if only because of how talkative I'm being (although I'd like to think I'm a threat because I've named a spy or two as well, but I'm not going to count on that). There's still a good chance I'll die during the battle. And if I do, we'll know they're not all using the same strategy. If I don't, we'll have a better idea of where they could hit next.

 

 

And Ren, I don't think you have to worry about bloodthirstiness. I've got you covered. Maybe not on the person you'd prefer, but still. You did ask. I'm simply delivering.

 

Didn't I say no more novels? Oops...

[Renegade he/him]

Well, since it was asked for, I came up with a few lines of poetry:

 

Never gonna give you up, you give?  Gonna never
Let you down, you let?
Never gonna tell a lie, lie a tell, gonna never
Hurt you.  You hurt?

 

Reihmer nodded at the words to his new poem, Never Gonna Never Gonna Never.  He had tried turning it into a song earlier, but it had ended up so terribly that he wrote this in the footnotes:

 

Are these lyrics awful?  Yes, awful lyrics, these are.
Never gonna do that again, that do?  Gonna never.

 

Ah, well.  Being a world-renowned poet was no easy task, after all.

[Macen he/him]

Wilson. Tldr. just kidding.

*EDIT* Fixed the color.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Macen

[Eolhondras he/him]

 

And now, so as not to double post, since Eolhondras posted while I was writing this.

I'm very familiar with the I Know You Know gambit, so that was me addressing that possibility--the fact that I'm mentioned it means they might not do it, because they know we'll be looking for it. So they might do the opposite. So I threw the opposite down as well. I was trying to be as balanced as I could with my plan at the time.

 

 

Against my better judgement I think I'll discard the innumerous warnings about your evil ways and accept your reasoning for the time being. Although I'm sure sooner rather than later I will be adding to your evil rep doc, perhaps in games to come. 

 

I'd like a little more though before jumping on the Odysa bandwagon though.

 

 

And with that in mind, I'm voting for Karlin.  Her utter silence seems awfully like what Twei did in MR 3.  

 

Reihmer, I'm interested to have you expand on that, as after my brief skimming of MR 3, Twei seems to be less talkative this game then she was then. But then if we are taking silence as a sign of guilt, half the people playing are probably spies.

 

 

 

Also just a random little thought. Although there are quite a few quiet players at the moment, perhaps we should be directing the brunt of the pressure on the light eyes who have not been particularly active. As discussed previously there is likely only one spy, perhaps two in the light eyes group, and so if they were found, the others would be relatively trust worthy. Not to mention, if the light eyed spy(s) were found early, that would rule out any possible secret vote mischief later in the game.

So as a method of clearing a few names, perhaps perhaps that would be a good place to pick up at the end of this cycle.

Thoughts?

[Metacognition he/him]

No time for RP (and I really hate that, as this is turning into a "Blue" game), but I think Wok's death is the Spy team being clever. They know that we were kind of expecting someone who is typically taken out early to be taken out, so they switched it up specifically to throw us off. I also think that they're likely fairly talkative at the moment and so they somewhat assume that the other spies are as well, so they went after someone that they thought was too quiet to likely be a spy. Also, even if Wok turned out to be a spy, they weren't losing much, since she wasn't being particularly active either. It was a win-win situation for them, if I'm reading it correctly. 

 

Also, and this is a minor possibility, they might have targeted Wok to either clear or implicate Jost. That possibility is so muddled though that it's nothing more than something to keep in mind going forward, in my opinion. 

 

Something I'd like to point out that I'm surprised no one brought up is the fact that the killer seemed to have difficulty writing. Now that could just be Wyrm creating detail to make the narrative more fun, but it could also be an accidental clue that slipped past while he was writing (it happens. As any GM will tell you, it can be bloody hard to keep little hints from leaking out in your writing!). Even if this is a clue, it doesn't really help narrow the field much anyways, but I'm still surprised no one has mentioned it. 

 

Anyways, back to analysis. I've reread everything and, Kenara, you're pretty wishy-washy, in my opinion and that strikes me as suspicious. A lot of your posts read like you're arguing with yourself, even when you're suspecting someone. It makes you hard to pin down on what you actually believe, which would be a great Eliminator tactic to keep yourself looking innocent (also, you say you're too busy for any RP, but you seem to find a lot of time to keep control of the conversation! ). There's also the fact that you were added to the lighteyes at the last minute and while that could mean nothing, it could mean something more. I'm not throwing a vote your way yet, but (and I'm not basing this off of your reputation) you're on my watch list. 

 

With Kaddar,  I keep going back and forth on. His consistent rule clarifications could just be him being helpful, but it could just as easily be him publicly making a spectacle of asking to come off as less knowledgeable than he really is. Add to this that he's, supposedly, sarcastically claiming to be a spy and I'm tempted to call his bluff. I think he could be going for a bit of reverse psychology with that and it's a lot easier to write off someone's suspicions with a jest than it is to actually refute them. And if we're going off of previous playstyles, I'd say that level of trolling isn't something that he's done before. The main reason I keep going back and forth on him though is that his insights seem like good ones and thus I wouldn't want to lose him if he's good. On the other hand, that's all they are- insights. He keeps stating what we should be able to see (like his first post this cycle) for ourselves and has yet to offer any plans or thoughts on what to actually do with them. That could easily be an eliminator tactic to keep the blame for any failed plans that come about due to his insights off of him. 

 

So who do I vote for? Neither. I think we might be a bit too focused on the Lighteyes (it's cause we're jealous ). Sure, there's likely at least one spy among them and that's a lot narrower field than with the darkeyes, but if we spend all our time there, we'll likely be killed by the rest of them before we can find them.Not to mention, that we could be just barking up the wrong tree with both Kaddar and Kenara or that Wyrm might not have put any of the spies in with the Lighteyes, but knew that we'd think there was. As such, my vote goes to Marand for now. I think he's going for the that sweet spot of just posting enough to stay relevant, but little enough to be forgotten. 

 

---Just a side note, one of the reasons that votes have been less forthcoming, in my opinion, is due to the lack of debate that typically comes after them. I agree with Reihmer, we need to be more bloodthirsty. These "poke" votes have lost their bite because everyone knows that the second they post something, whether helpful or not, the vote will likely be retracted. The debate is where we get a lot of our information on how much to suspect someone and we can't get that by not lynching. Even if we do kill an innocent, that's better than not killing anyone or killing someone without the debate. 

 

Oh, Norlav, that's not how the lighteye voting is supposed to work. Once we have a few suspects for the cycle (which is why we need to get the ball rolling on that), then the lighteyes' vote should go on someone that isn't up for the lynch. If someone volunteers to be the target, then that would be suspicious to me (see my vote), as they'd be trying to negate themselves from the pool of possible suspects for that cycle. If no one finds me suspicious enough to throw a vote my way, then by all means, the lighteyes could use me as the vote sink again, but that's up to them and should be based off of who hasn't received any votes yet. Personally, I'd suggest using Tal or Damon right now, as poke votes should be outlawed, in my opinion. So unless we're going to just lynch one of them for inactivity (and Wyrm has already taken care of that), they're a safe place to store the vote for now. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Metacognition

[little wilson she/her]

Something I'd like to point out that I'm surprised no one brought up is the fact that the killer seemed to have difficulty writing. Now that could just be Wyrm creating detail to make the narrative more fun, but it could also be an accidental clue that slipped past while he was writing (it happens. As any GM will tell you, it can be bloody hard to keep little hints from leaking out in your writing!). Even if this is a clue, it doesn't really help narrow the field much anyways, but I'm still surprised no one has mentioned it. 

 

Anyways, back to analysis. I've reread everything and, Kenara, you're pretty wishy-washy, in my opinion and that strikes me as suspicious. A lot of your posts read like you're arguing with yourself, even when you're suspecting someone. It makes you hard to pin down on what you actually believe, which would be a great Eliminator tactic to keep yourself looking innocent (also, you say you're too busy for any RP, but you seem to find a lot of time to keep control of the conversation! ). There's also the fact that you were added to the lighteyes at the last minute and while that could mean nothing, it could mean soemthing more. I'm not throwing a vote your way yet, but (and I'm not basing this off of your reputation) you're on my watch list. 

 

I'm pretty sure the writing thing is a reference to the fact that Vorin men don't write. A lot of them know glyphs, but the writing itself is left to women. Which is why Joe has been using Jost's sister Sani with his communications. Sani is the writer. Not Jost.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting the wishy-washy-ness. If you're using my post about my reasonings for voting Odysa as basis for my arguing with myself, it's not correct. I wrote it that way with the questions because those were the questions that led me to my end result. I like showing my reasonings and my logic for getting to where I am. It gives more possibility for people to call out any inconsistencies with the logic, which helps keep me on track with finding the eliminators. So by all means, if you see issues, mention them. That's what I want.

 

I never said I was too busy to RP. At least not in the last few days. I may have said that at the beginning of the game, because I actually was too busy then. I have plenty of time to RP now; the problem is that I haven't had any brilliant ideas for RP with a lighteyed woman in the middle of a war. Until I have one, I'm sticking in blue. But that's in keeping with my past games. I've never been a huge one for RP. I stick more to blue text discussion than anything else.

 

EDIT: I just noticed your comment about my being added to the lighteyes. I don't follow the logic. Please explain.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I feel kinda weird typing everything in black, but I thought that blue text was for out of game conversations and black was for everything else. Anyway, one problem that we had a little of is that it is going to be hard to find the eliminators based solely on the nighttime lynches, since there could be up to 3 different teams working toward different goals. Now, it is possible that the spies have been able to communicate between themselves through powers and then through codes, which could hurt us a bit, but it would also mean that they could end up working toward a common goal that we could sniff out. With a battle coming up, we are going to learn a bit of info but also lose several players unless the guardsmen get lucky.

 

That's just some of what I've been thinking about. I don't really have any suspicions except that I still don't like Jain's reasoning, so I'll leave my vote there where it has a little meaning.

[Kasimir he/him]

Quick response as this is on mobile--Alv.

1. I don't really see the point of "making a spectacle of coming across as less knowledgeable thsn I really am." It's not as though I'm asking basic questions to pretend to be clueless--I'm pushing for a clearer picture of role interactions, and I didn't see the point in privately putting the questions in a PM because until the main thread was locked, I'd been updating and compiling all the existing clarifications in a single post. (Obviously, you're welcome to check to make sure I haven't been manipulating things.) Putting all the stuff in-thread rather than in PMs was more expedient to that end.

2. Because observations are all I have. First, because if you don't bring up even 'obvious' observations, it seems they get overlooked. Second, if it's not already clear, I'm neither an assertive/forceful player nor person. I don't like to set grand plans and force everyone to go along with them. That is par for the course for me: I've always observed and made suggestions and I like to present options rather than tie everyone down. That's why I suggested we had to do something about the lighteyes vote and mentioned options but didn't want to tie it down. Don't like that? Sure, lynch me. It's not as though I've bothered to deny being a Spy and I'm clearly not helpful enough for the playstyle everyone wants this time, I guess.

3. I brought up the possibility of Ash's death simply as a response to Jain. Apparently, I'm also telling my other Spy brethren what to do, because they couldn't have figured it out for themselves or used a different plan. Well, ok. Don't let me stop you. Don't stop believin'.

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

So, recently my laptop's battery decided to commit the noble act of seppuku. As chivalrous as it was, it left my laptop useless. I won't be able to post 'till tomorrow, but I will be able to check in with my phone (I don't like posting with my phone. It does all kinds od random things.).

Winter Cloud, I highly reccommend clearly reasoning out your arguments, and make logical choices. It'll make you a more effective and useful player.

[little wilson she/her]

Huh. Wasn't expecting that kind of resigned/hopeless tone, Kas, but it definitely succeeded in lowering my suspicions toward you. I'll still be watching, but you're no longer my main lighteyes suspect. And since Macen dropped off earlier, that leaves Jain and Joe. And I'm not particularly suspicious of either one of them, although I guess I'm minorly more suspicious of Joe than Jain, but that's gut more than anything else. :/

 

In regard to the lighteyed vote. We should start the discussion on that fairly soon, since there's less than 14 1/2 hours left in the cycle. I'm down with Tal or Damon. Both of them have been on today, so I'm not sure why they haven't posted, and since it doesn't really help us to lynch inactives--especially since they'll die tomorrow if they stay inactive--there's not really any better place to put it. No one's innocent, so we need to keep the prospects open on the chopping block.

[A Joe in the Bush]

My Current problem is that I have nothing to add at all right now. Anything I could possibly Say has been said, And I've only had gut feelings off innocence for about a third of the group. And Until I have something To say, I can't really RP much.Tony Stark makes you feel. He’s a cool exec with a heart of steel.As Iron Man, all jets ablaze, 

The only thing I can say is that I'm suspicious of Kas, simply because he's trying a new Strategy (Reverse Psychology) And it's Usually the Eliminators who try new strategies, since the Village has accepted methods already.He’s fighting and smiting with repulsor rays! Amazing armor! That’s Iron Man! A blazing power! That’s Iron Man!

Edited December 4, 2014 by The Only Joe

[Kasimir he/him]

So sure of that, are you? Hmm?

[Metacognition he/him]

I'm pretty sure the writing thing is a reference to the fact that Vorin men don't write. A lot of them know glyphs, but the writing itself is left to women. Which is why Joe has been using Jost's sister Sani with his communications. Sani is the writer. Not Jost.

 

That's exactly my point about it. I'm well aware of how things work on Roshar. If we accept it to be true and not just narrative, then that means that a male character was the one who kill Wok. Just narrows the field a bit. Not much, but a bit. 

 

 

I'm not sure where you're getting the wishy-washy-ness. If you're using my post about my reasonings for voting Odysa as basis for my arguing with myself, it's not correct. I wrote it that way with the questions because those were the questions that led me to my end result. I like showing my reasonings and my logic for getting to where I am. It gives more possibility for people to call out any inconsistencies with the logic, which helps keep me on track with finding the eliminators. So by all means, if you see issues, mention them. That's what I want.

 

I never said I was too busy to RP. At least not in the last few days. I may have said that at the beginning of the game, because I actually was too busy then. I have plenty of time to RP now; the problem is that I haven't had any brilliant ideas for RP with a lighteyed woman in the middle of a war. Until I have one, I'm sticking in blue. But that's in keeping with my past games. I've never been a huge one for RP. I stick more to blue text discussion than anything else.

 

EDIT: I just noticed your comment about my being added to the lighteyes. I don't follow the logic. Please explain.

 

I'm not just talking about just today. As I said, I went back through the entire game so far and read over everything. Up until you've set your sights on Odysa, I find your posts to be as all encompassing as possible, which I view with suspicion because it sounds like you're trying to cater to all sides at once. You jumped around a lot and never really stuck to to anything. Here, let's take your decision to explain your plan about Wit and the votes from the first day as an example. You first started with the idea of not revealing your plan and then you revealed it anyway. Sure, you've explained that, but here's the thing that gets to me about it; you revealed it not only just after roughly 10 hours later, but there was still over 24 hours left in the cycle. So you effectively sabotaged even using that plan for that cycle by revealing way too early for it to be any good to us. And you were aware of the fact that now that it was revealed, it wouldn't be of much help. If you were truly looking out for the best interests of the group and were truly afraid that you'd die, you would've posted the plan near the end of the day, after the spies couldn't do anything about it for that cycle at least. 

 

It's just small stuff like that that makes a lot of your posts come off as if they're just trying too hard to appease all while coming off as non-offending to everyone as well. 

 

As far as the lighteyes thing, it's more something for people to keep in mind than an indication towards your suspiciousness. It could be that, with the addition of myself and Tal, that Wyrm decided to include another spy team (I still don't know how I feel about you claiming knowledge of the number of teams due to outside information, but if you're a spy, I'm chalking it up to lying about the "Word of the GM." It just plays very close to the fairplay rules, in my opinion) and meant to add you as a lighteye spy. It could mean that Wyrm just wanted to include another lighteyes in the game once more people joined. It could mean that you're Wit and he meant for Wit to be hidden amongst the lighteyes, since we're more likely to go after them because the field of suspects is lower. It could mean anything, but to speculate on it is to speculate on WWWD (What Would Wyrm Do) as a GM rather than focus on the game. It's similar to whether the Spies were trying to frame Jost or help him seem innocent; it's too muddled to tell, but I included both, as they're still factors we should consider when making overall decisions. 

 

 

Quick response as this is on mobile--Alv.

1. I don't really see the point of "making a spectacle of coming across as less knowledgeable thsn I really am." It's not as though I'm asking basic questions to pretend to be clueless--I'm pushing for a clearer picture of role interactions, and I didn't see the point in privately putting the questions in a PM because until the main thread was locked, I'd been updating and compiling all the existing clarifications in a single post. (Obviously, you're welcome to check to make sure I haven't been manipulating things.) Putting all the stuff in-thread rather than in PMs was more expedient to that end.

2. Because observations are all I have. First, because if you don't bring up even 'obvious' observations, it seems they get overlooked. Second, if it's not already clear, I'm neither an assertive/forceful player nor person. I don't like to set grand plans and force everyone to go along with them. That is par for the course for me: I've always observed and made suggestions and I like to present options rather than tie everyone down. That's why I suggested we had to do something about the lighteyes vote and mentioned options but didn't want to tie it down. Don't like that? Sure, lynch me. It's not as though I've bothered to deny being a Spy and I'm clearly not helpful enough for the playstyle everyone wants this time, I guess.

3. I brought up the possibility of Ash's death simply as a response to Jain. Apparently, I'm also telling my other Spy brethren what to do, because they couldn't have figured it out for themselves or used a different plan. Well, ok. Don't let me stop you. Don't stop believin'.

 

You make it sound like I already called for your head. Just because I'm suspicious of someone doesn't mean that they're automatically a Spy. Besides, as I said, I'd rather not lynch you if you're good, as your observations have been insightful, but you're still claiming to be a Spy and deflecting that by making it about your playstyle instead. I'm willing to call your bluff, if that is indeed what it is. 

 

 

 

(On an entirely OOG note, are you okay, Kas? That reads as if you're a bit hurt by it all and have lost the enthusiasm that you typically have. It could just be due to trying to get your thoughts out on your mobile, but I don't want you to take my observations too personally. I, personally, wasn't trying to attack your character as a person or your playstyle. I hope you know that and if anything I said offended you in any way, then I'm sorry. If you have an issues with anything, we could always set up a PM with Wyrm to discuss it (so no actual game information gets leaked), as per the Etiquette Policy.)

Edited December 4, 2014 by Metacognition

[Kasimir he/him]

OOG: I'm just shorter on mobile because typing like this is annoying. Also, heavily sleep-deprived and being on Day One of a two-day exam marathon means I'm not exactly patient enough to eke out a better defense. I'll do so when home, apologies.

Game-wise, I don't consider it a deflection. You raised many concerns about me, including the fact I don't make plans. This is where it seems to be about playstyle because I have never played as a planner, throughout this game. And in this particular case, I'm starved for ideas anyway. All save one.

I agree I've never answered the charges of deflecting insistence that I am a spy with sarcasm. Indeed, it seems I am a highly sarcastic Spy

 

Edit: Back home and I don't want to doublepost, so here goes. First things first, apologies if anyone got the wrong impression. Tired!Kas means impatient!Kas and mobile typing is annoying--I notice Jain agrees--so now that I'm on my keyboard, I'll try to be a bit more thorough.

 

Let me make this clear: I'm not trying to aggregate every single charge levelled against me--and some of them are rather fair--to charges of 'no-one likes my playstyle!' As I can see, the charges directed at me are several:

 

1. "Well, what you've been posting reads awfully like messages to fellow Eliminators."

Indeed, I have been unmasked! The shame! The horror! I'm sending cunning messages telling my fellow Spies how to play (and really, y'all should contact me, tsk.)

 

Very simply, I disagree with the basic premise that Wilson and Macen seem to be endorsing. I do agree that some things shouldn't be talked about because we don't want to help my fellow Eliminators too much. For instance: talking about who the Surgeons should protect. At the same time, I honestly think that as much as the idea can be flawed in implementation--bringing up things, even if it's obvious, helps the Village. I don't mean to say that being Captain Obvious and nothing more is helpful, but I do find it constructive to throw possibilities out there, to let people think about it, and really, to keep ideas flowing. I think that keeping silent and keeping it to myself isn't really a smart thing to do. It's something I've tended to do in past games (see Meta's QF) and I've ended up paying for it. So perhaps I'm overcompensating, but at this point, I do believe that talking more is better, and I've decided that responding to Jain and trying to make sense of Ash's death (even though it is, at this point, a singular data-point) is well worth it. Why do you disagree, Wilson and Macen?

 

2. "Well, you've been ambiguously helpful. You're just throwing out observations but not solid plans."

 

These are two separate charges, but I've put them together for the sake of convenience. On the first part: well, I admit that I don't tend to aggressively vote--the only time I've done that has been in QFs, and I admit that I do think that in an MR, we have a bit of leeway. Furthermore, I haven't actually been following discussions in detail--I'd need to really look over things to be able to really push any suspicions I might have. And in some cases, such as those of Wilson, Meta, and Aonar etcetera--I'm suspicious just because. (...Because I can't really tell, but I know better than to go into immediate trust.) So on those grounds, yes, I've not been helpful and I could do better. Somewhat. Temper that with the realisation that I have seldom done so in the past. I am, at least, consistent. On the second part: again, consistency. This is where I think it does come down to my playstyle. As I have said above, I am not much of a planner. I do suggest plans on occasion, when they occur to me. None have here. I tend to find plans a bit imposing at times, and I'm not really assertive enough to enjoy pushing them. The closest I got to a plan here was to suggest that we needed to do something about the Lighteyes vote and to raise possibilities for it. Those who have played on my team before will recall that even as an Eliminator, I don't really suggest plans, more than throw out possibilities and wargame with teammates. (Oh oops, King's the GM here. Sorry, nix that ) That's really as much as I can say. So two factors at stake here. At this point, I see more of the work being done in discussion than in planning. I am obviously not a Messenger, and therefore am not in an informational position to suggest how we could mobilise what we have beyond what has already been suggested by Ren in the very first post of this game.

 

3. "You're not actually making any effort to deny being a Spy/You're trying to bluff/You're playing reverse psychology/You're trolling and you've never done that before."

 

To that, I can only reply: Guilty, guilty, guilty. I am a Spy. I make no attempt to deny it. Also, we should stop focusing on me, because it lets the other non-harmless Spies skitter by in the background.
 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Kasimir

[little wilson she/her]

That's exactly my point about it. I'm well aware of how things work on Roshar. If we accept it to be true and not just narrative, then that means that a male character was the one who kill Wok. Just narrows the field a bit. Not much, but a bit.

Ah. I see what you're saying. Okay. It's not a bad lead. It'll only help find that particular killer but at least it's something. For now.

I'm not just talking about just today. As I said, I went back through the entire game so far and read over everything. Up until you've set your sights on Odysa, I find your posts to be as all encompassing as possible, which I view with suspicion because it sounds like you're trying to cater to all sides at once. You jumped around a lot and never really stuck to to anything. Here, let's take your decision to explain your plan about Wit and the votes from the first day as an example. You first started with the idea of not revealing your plan and then you revealed it anyway. Sure, you've explained that, but here's the thing that gets to me about it; you revealed it not only just after roughly 10 hours later, but there was still over 24 hours left in the cycle. So you effectively sabotaged even using that plan for that cycle by revealing way too early for it to be any good to us. And you were aware of the fact that now that it was revealed, it wouldn't be of much help. If you were truly looking out for the best interests of the group and were truly afraid that you'd die, you would've posted the plan near the end of the day, after the spies couldn't do anything about it for that cycle at least.

It's just small stuff like that that makes a lot of your posts come off as if they're just trying too hard to appease all while coming off as non-offending to everyone as well.

.... Hm. You make a valid point. I'm actually not even sure what I can say in defense because you're right. I shouldn't have brought it up that early in the cycle, but I wasn't thinking in terms of using it that first cycle. I was thinking second cycle onward, and now I can't remember why. Still, that was my bad.

(I still don't know how I feel about you claiming knowledge of the number of teams due to outside information, but if you're a spy, I'm chalking it up to lying about the "Word of the GM." It just plays very close to the fairplay rules, in my opinion)

It wasn't Wyrm that I was talking to. It was Kas. We were just talking about different possible strategies the eliminators could use this game and other stuff and he mentioned that about the numbers. I'm assuming he heard it from Wyrm, but it was pre-game (like a good two or three days before the game started), and things like that can change as the game's about to start. Regardless, it was the reason why I was running off the idea of just 2 teams in the beginning, and I do think that's still a possibility, but there could definitely be 3rd team out there.

[Kasimir he/him]

If a Lighteyes skips a week's Combat, then they are removed from the list for that Cycle and put into the next Cycle's. They are, effectively, not a viable choice for it. The same is true for Spies in Combat with their own army: They will not be on the list for that Cycle, though they won't be added to the next like a Lighteyes skipping Combat. Neither will be given any indication in the writeup.

I knew I was forgetting something. This is why the battle kills can only give us a tentative figure--it presumes that no Lighteyes decided to skip the battle. It's something to note; we can bicker about the likeliness of that another time.

 

And a state of the votes tally:

Jain (1): Alinel

Wilson (1): Marand

Odysa (1): Wilson

Karlin (1): Reihmer

Marand (1): Meller

Ace (1): Kas

Maili's definitely not a viable vote sink unless we want to kill him.

 

Edit: Areh, fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out, luckat!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Kasimir

[luckat she/her]

I’m really sorry I haven’t been active. Every time I’ve had a chance to get on, I’ve barely had time to read the posts, and I haven’t had time to figure anything out. My only thought regarding why Ash could have been killed was the one Kas brought up. I don’t know what to think about everyone being suspicious of him because of that.

Something about Wilson has been on my radar, but I think that’s just an unfounded feeling. I might just be being influenced by everyone else though. It might have something to do with how she keeps insisting that it’s obvious she’s on Dalinar’s side, even though no one else seems to think so. She said that her playstyle this game is different from how she plays when she’s evil, but is it the same as how she has played in the past when she’s good? I don’t really know well enough to say.

Anyway, I think we’re focusing too much on the Lighteyes. If we lynch the good Lighteyes, that will make it easier for the spies to manipulate the vote. I don’t know what to say about anyone else though.

Also, there’s an error in Kas’s vote tally. Maill retracted his vote for Wilson.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

This reminds me of the Forgotten doc   

 

Wilson: Something doesn't seem right about her. It seems almost like every second post she's reminding us that she's innocent, that she's using a more active playstyle, or that she's a scary Eliminator. It feels like she's trying to compensate for the (re)new(ed) wariness from LG9 by playing noticeably differently. That might be trying to avoid a lynch as a loyal scribe, or it could be trying to seem helpful and trustworthy as a spy. Or hint to the other spies.

 

Kas: No judgement. I would just note that in MR3, he tended to ask for rule clarifications in the doc if there was an advantage to be gained from the villagers not knowing the answer. He may or may not be doing that here.

 

There are a few people who appear to be less active in the thread than usual (Reihmer, Marand, Jost, Alinel) and some of them have given IRL reasons. For the others, I find it difficult to gauge whether they actually are less active or whether it's an illusion due to the level of activity in the thread.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Kas: No judgement. I would just note that in MR3, he tended to ask for rule clarifications in the doc if there was an advantage to be gained from the villagers not knowing the answer. He may or may not be doing that here.

As with my previous game, any clarifications on the rules that I am asked, no matter whether it's on the thread, in PMs, or in docs, I will always share the answer with everyone on here to keep the playing field even.

[Macen he/him]

1. "Well, what you've been posting reads awfully like messages to fellow Eliminators."

Indeed, I have been unmasked! The shame! The horror! I'm sending cunning messages telling my fellow Spies how to play (and really, y'all should contact me, tsk.)

 

Very simply, I disagree with the basic premise that Wilson and Macen seem to be endorsing. I do agree that some things shouldn't be talked about because we don't want to help my fellow Eliminators too much. For instance: talking about who the Surgeons should protect. At the same time, I honestly think that as much as the idea can be flawed in implementation--bringing up things, even if it's obvious, helps the Village. I don't mean to say that being Captain Obvious and nothing more is helpful, but I do find it constructive to throw possibilities out there, to let people think about it, and really, to keep ideas flowing. I think that keeping silent and keeping it to myself isn't really a smart thing to do. It's something I've tended to do in past games (see Meta's QF) and I've ended up paying for it. So perhaps I'm overcompensating, but at this point, I do believe that talking more is better, and I've decided that responding to Jain and trying to make sense of Ash's death (even though it is, at this point, a singular data-point) is well worth it. Why do you disagree, Wilson and Macen?

 

I get where you're coming from, but I still think it's a bit suspicious. You aren't just giving thought's on what you think may have happened on why Ashe was killed. It almost seems like you're giving other spies advice. Here is the quote that stuck out to me.

 

 

 My suggestion is that at this point, this is exactly the predicament confronting Spy teams. (And I'm not saying this because I'm a Spy   ) You could kill the brilliantly scary players, but if they turn out to be Spies from different teams, then you're knee-deep in crem. In which case, Eliminator strategy might take a different turn. They might be struggling--just as we are--to figure out who the other Eliminators are likely to be, and until then, they're going to be more cautious about their kills.

I'm not saying you're a spy, I'm saying that this is almost worded as giving the spies advice. You can take it how you will, I just thought it was suspicious.

OOG: Sorry I wasn't on much last night guys - I went to have a drink with some friends after work, turned into about 10 drinks and an all night affair. I did post once from my phone and tried to read though.