Szeth's Spren

[lookingglass she/her]

So I know there are a lot of theories on Darkness being Nalan and if he is actually the Patron of Skybreakers but lets say he really is Nalan and recruited Szeth.

 

If Szeth is on his way on becoming a Skybreaker where is his Spren? I know he has Nightblood but from what I remember Nightblood didn't give his wielder any extra powers. So does this mean he won't be able to use stormlight anymore? Will he get a spren later or Nalan is so against spren that he won't allow it (seeing as he kills all potential knights)

 

So thoughts?

[Omniscience]

Perhaps Nightblood will become his spren. I believe that there is a WOB that says Nightblood exists as a shardblade on Roshar, and since Vasher is able to live off stormlight we know that forms of investiture on Nalthis and Roshar are at least compatible if not interchangable. This sounds pretty crazy even as I'm writing it, but a Nahel bond between Nightblood and Szeth would certainly be interesting...

[CHOUTAGOD he/him]

Wouldn't that make him a dustbringer? I thought you needed a certain spren for each order. Wouldn't Nightblood be more in tune with Dustbringers than Skybreaker? Maybe Nightblood can choose though. I never really understood if Heralds can make Knights Radiant. Scrim how it reads it sounds like they were at first surprised by the Knights appearance. From my perspective at least. I thought the spren chose the Knight not the Herald. Some orders of Knights didn't get along to well. It seems like all the Heralds did. I say SEEMS because they talked about one another in concern durin Gavilars feast, but I digress. I guess it all depends if Nightblood can change form like a spren or is distinctly a Shardblade.

[Wrath]

My personal belief (and one that I know a lot of people share) is that the current organisation known as the Skybreakers is not the same as the Radiant Order of Skybreakers. No Surgebinders, just people. Interpol, not the Justice League.

[lookingglass she/her]

No Surgebinders, just people. Interpol, not the Justice League.

 

Brilliant! I laughed so hard when I saw this. That's kind of what I think. It would be interesting if Spren start to bond with "real" Skybreakers and then they have to have a showdown with the fake ones.

[Aleksiel]

It depends on your interpretation on what a Skybreaker is - surgebinder bonded with a highspren or a member of Nale's group. SA3 may focus on Skybreakers, but that doesn't mean Szeth will necessarily get a spren.

[skaa he/him]

The original Skybreakers have the Gravitation and Division Surges. Nightblood does seem to exhibit gravity-enhancing effects (he is much heavier than he looks), so maybe as a Splinter on Roshar (i.e. a spren) he could grant this gravity-enhancing power to Szeth. And if Szeth wants to "divide" things in a dramatically destructive way like the Division Surge does, well, I reckon Nightblood could help him with that somehow.

Edited February 9, 2015 by skaa

[Aleksiel]

How is Nightblood being heavier than he looks a gravity-enhancing effect? It could be a matter of density. Shardblades are lighter than some would expect, yet not all dead spren granted access to the surge of gravity. 

[Battah'elin]

The Skybreakers have the Gravitation and Division Surges. Nightblood does seem to exhibit gravity-enhancing effects (he is much heavier than he looks), so maybe as a Splinter on Roshar (i.e. a spren) he could grant this gravity-enhancing effect on Szeth. And if Szeth wants to "divide" things in a dramatically destructive way like the Division Surge does, well, I reckon Nightblood could help him with that somehow.

 

Nightblood's weight has something to do with it being "broken/twisted". Shardblades are lighter than would be expected, and Nightblood is a Shardblade. Weight might be related to presence in the Physical Realm?

 

Besides, "granting this gravity-enhancing effect on Szeth" would give him the amazing and novel magical power of being able to make himself heavy, without Feruchemical safeguards. 

[Wrath]

Brilliant! I laughed so hard when I saw this. That's kind of what I think. It would be interesting if Spren start to bond with "real" Skybreakers and then they have to have a showdown with the fake ones.

 

That is an interesting possibility. I imagine the fight would involve both groups of Skybreakers staring at each other waiting for someone to break a law. But seriously, I think both Nalan's Skybreakers and any potential KRs would be drawn from the same talent pool, so perhaps Nalan is able to prevent someone from forming a Nahel bond (with a larkin maybe?).

[skaa he/him]

Besides, "granting this gravity-enhancing effect on Szeth" would give him the amazing and novel magical power of being able to make himself heavy, without Feruchemical safeguards.

Um, it's also something that Gravity Surgebinders can do. We've seen Szeth do it when he was fighting Gavilar.

Anyway, gravitation on Roshar, maybe the Cosmere in general, is related to a specific spiritual connection an object has with a planet. If Nightblood is unusually heavy due to his ability to strengthen this connection, I just thought it'd be possible for him to grant that ability to one he's bonded to as a spren, since granting abilities is what spren-bonding does on Roshar.

Edited February 10, 2015 by skaa

[Moogle]

Seons would grant powers to those they are bonded to if they went to Roshar. This implies Nightblood (who also sorta-bonds with its wielders) should also grant some powers after you use him once. I sincerely doubt any Surges will be granted, however. Nahel bonding spren basically are their Surges in a very real way, and while Nightblood seems to have an Intent like spren, I would be genuinely surprised if it ended up granting the ability to take in Stormlight and Surges. It's of Endowment, not whatever Shard is responsible for Stormlight, and its Intent is "destroy evil" rather than some flavor of "brave/obedient" or "protecting/leading". The mechanics just wouldn't make sense to me if Nightblood granted Surges.

 

I agree that the highspren, if they decide to start bonding again, will likely end up bonding Szeth. To properly use Nightblood, Szeth is going to have to find some way to hook it up to Stormlight, which should require a spren. As things stand, he should not be able to take in Stormlight. (Or maybe you can strap gems to Nightblood's hilt? Or maybe Szeth won't draw Nightblood that way?)

 

The current Skybreakers are almost undoubtedly not Surgebinders, but I think if highspren started bonding again a significant portion of the current Skybreakers would end up bound to highspren.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[skaa he/him]

How is Nightblood being heavier than he looks a gravity-enhancing effect? It could be a matter of density.

 

It was just speculation. Come on, can you really not imagine it being a gravity-enhancing effect?

 

But sure, the surprising heaviness could just be from the material the sword is made of. For all we know, Nightblood's physical structure might be solid gold, and that his black coloring is just an effect of his Investiture. I... I actually kind of like that idea...

 

The black smoke that seeps from him when unsheathed also has strange behavior with regards to gravity, but we can always just chalk that up to "cool factor", can't we?

Edited February 10, 2015 by skaa

[natc]

If that certain Nightblood-related person has been living off of stormlight this whole time then I think even entities that are of Endowment find stormlight to be a generic enough investiture source to a certain degree. Of course Nightblood will probably absorb it on contact...

Though what would actually happen when Nightblood starts granting pseudo-surges will be interesting.

Edited February 10, 2015 by natc

[Shlee]

I'd say at this point, from a relational perspective, Nightblood IS his spren. That's what the "live" shardblades are, after all, sentient bits of power that came from shards.  He's just of a different shard.

 

I also doubt he'll grant access to Roshar's surges without some finagling by somebody who knows more about such things than Szeth, if it's even possible, but that doesn't mean Szeth wielding him won't gain some powers in his own right. The one brief time we saw Vasher actually unsheath him, he goes far beyond Vasher's normal capabilities.  Stormlight's a little less hard to come by than Nightblood's homeworld investiture, so Szeth may have opportunity to do a little more exploring of what the sword can do than what we've seen thus far as well, which is a scary thought.

 

On the "if Darkness is Nalan" then it's interesting that there's two dark-skinned men running around, each with a pale cheek scar    

Edited February 10, 2015 by Shlee

[Moogle]

If that certain Nightblood-related person has been living off of stormlight this whole time then I think even entities that are of Endowment find stormlight to be a generic enough investiture source to a certain degree. Of course Nightblood will probably absorb it on contact...

 

Just to clarify my point (I'm slowly getting better from being sick, so my mind isn't entirely clouded anymore and I swear one of these days I'll go respond to that Hemalurgy post, but I'm still explaining myself poorly), I'm not saying that Endowment is going to reject Stormlight. I just don't think Endowment's Investiture can grant the special ability to take in Stormlight to others on Roshar. The trick seems to be that to take in gaseous Investiture of a Shard, you need to be 'keyed' to it in some regard, at least for non-Breath Investitures (Endowment's Intent makes it easy to take it in, no key needed). You can also just slurp it up in some cases, like Returned/Nightblood, who seem to be sort of like vacuums pulling in Investiture, but this isn't quite the same thing as granting a regular human being without Investiture-slurping powers the ability to take in Stormlight.

 

To further clarify my clarification: My theory/understanding is that Kaladin can take in Stormlight because his bond with Syl (who is of Honor) 'keys' him to Honor/Cultivation and thus to Stormlight (which is probably of Honor/Cultivation/Odium/some combination/Adonalsium). Vasher and Nightblood act on completely different mechanisms, and take in any old Investiture to feed on like black holes. Kaladin should be limited to only taking in Stormlight (unless he is modified to get 'keyed' to more things), whereas Vasher/Nightblood should be able to run on anything. Nightblood should not be able to key Szeth to Stormlight because he's not of a Shard composing Stormlight (unless it's of Adonalsium in which case forget this entire post).

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[cosmo2354]

On the theory of how Nightblood relates to the Skybreakers- According to the Coppermind wiki (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Skybreakers), one of the traits of Skybreakers is their innate ability to tell guilty from innocent. They value the law above all else. Isn't this basically what Nalan/Darkness has been doing when he kills surgebinders? He's trying to prevent the Knights from returning so as to prevent the desolation from returning. Sort of an ends justify the means ideology.

Wasn't Nightblood created for the sole intent of 'destroying evil'? I feel like that fits right in with the Skybreaker's mentality.

[Wrath]

On the theory of how Nightblood relates to the Skybreakers- According to the Coppermind wiki (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Skybreakers), one of the traits of Skybreakers is their innate ability to tell guilty from innocent. They value the law above all else. Isn't this basically what Nalan/Darkness has been doing when he kills surgebinders? He's trying to prevent the Knights from returning so as to prevent the desolation from returning. Sort of an ends justify the means ideology.

Wasn't Nightblood created for the sole intent of 'destroying evil'? I feel like that fits right in with the Skybreaker's mentality.

 

Apparently "destroying evil" was the job of the Dustbringers. Skybreakers are not interested in the concept of evil at all, they just care about the letter of the law.

[lookingglass she/her]

All of this is fascinating but we keep avoiding the fact that Nightblood didn't actually didn't give Vasher any new powers. He was returned on his own... he created Nightblood (Well Shoshara? did). Nightblood is an separate entity to its wielder. A bond with a Spren however does give new abilities like using stormlight.

 

It sounds very romantic to have a sword that can "destroy evil" but Sazed without stormlight will not be as effective of a fighter especially against other radiants with shard blades.

[Moogle]

All of this is fascinating but we keep avoiding the fact that Nightblood didn't actually didn't give Vasher any new powers. He was returned on his own... he created Nightblood (Well Shoshara? did). Nightblood is an separate entity to its wielder. A bond with a Spren however does give new abilities like using stormlight.

 

This WoB says that the bond will only grant powers while on Roshar:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

 

Worldhopping Surgebinders everywhere are now sad.

 

This fits in very well with the theory on bonds being the focus of Roshar.

 

There's also this to confirm Nightblood bonds people:

Question

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

(source)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

 

This WoB says that the bond will only grant powers while on Roshar:

 

Worldhopping Surgebinders everywhere are now sad.

 

That WoB is not definitive proof, but rather your conclusion can be inferred from Brandon's response. Surgebinders should be fine off-Roshar though. We know Team Sanderson has done math for a Windrunner to reach orbit. Is that not leaving Roshar?

[Moogle]

That WoB is not definitive proof, but rather your conclusion can be inferred from Brandon's response. Surgebinders should be fine off-Roshar though. We know Team Sanderson has done math for a Windrunner to reach orbit. Is that not leaving Roshar?

 

I'm not sure if that's leaving Roshar! Going to the moon is certainly still very close, relative to being on another Shardworld. Certainly Surgebinders off-world will have access to Shardblades at least, but I'm really hesitant on saying they'll still have Surgebinding powers. It may be that they just lose some special powers while off of Roshar, like Kaladin no longer gets squires.

 

Also possible that they keep powers entirely when off of Roshar, but that would not fit with how Seon bonds grant powers on Roshar. It is further possible (and even likely) that with some whacky hijinks you can find a way to keep your powers from Roshar while Worldhopping. Brandon has not said Surgebinding is easy to get working off-world.

 

There may be some links here to how Feruchemy can store your Spiritual connection to the planet. Maybe you can store while on Roshar, and then tap when not off of Roshar, and you'd get to Surgebind? But then, requiring Feruchemy adds another bunch of issues...

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'm not sure if that's leaving Roshar! Certainly Surgebinders off-world will have access to Shardblades at least, but I'm really hesitant on saying they'll still have Surgebinding powers. It may be that they just lose some special powers while off of Roshar, like Kaladin no longer gets squires.

 

Also possible that they keep powers entirely when off of Roshar, but that would not fit with how Seon bonds grant powers on Roshar. It is further possible (and even likely) that with some whacky hijinks you can find a way to keep your powers from Roshar while Worldhopping. Brandon has not said Surgebinding is easy to get working off-world.

 

Well, given Seons can apparently travel off world (unless Brandon's response was more a "what-if" kind of deal), I would assume Spren could, meaning Sprenblades should be useable as you note. I wonder if maintaining powers off Roshar has to do with a connection to the planet itself. Surgebinders born on Roshar, or rather who truly view themselves as Rosharans, might be able to maintain powers. I suppose all we have is guesswork right now...

 

Perhaps you are right, and all surgebinding capabilities are lost off Roshar. This would probably mean Rosharan worldhoppers have a bit of a rougher time than others. It also means, though, that they are unique, because even Elantrians can make use of the Dor off-world, right?

[Moogle]

Perhaps you are right, and all surgebinding capabilities are lost off Roshar. This would probably mean Rosharan worldhoppers have a bit of a rougher time than others. It also means, though, that they are unique, because even Elantrians can make use of the Dor off-world, right?

 

They cannot without whacky hijinks. Getting AonDor to work off-planet is apparently super hard, and it is the hardest to do out of all the systems iirc? Edit: WoBs:

 

Question

Is there a region based magic like Elantris on any of the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aon magic is unique to that planet because it is intrinsic to the shard that created it, but you could theoretically hack the magic system so that AonDor would work on another planet.

(source)

 

Odium's_Shard

Can magic systems from one world work in any given other?

Brandon Sanderson

For some, it will take quite a bit of work, but it's possible to get them each to work. Sel's magics are regional, and so they are going to be tough. Scadrial's magics are the easiest.

(source)

(Couldn't find the one saying Sel's are the toughest, I may be insane.)

 

You bring up a good point that maybe Rosharans just keep their connection to Roshar as they worldhop, and it's strong enough to allow them to keep Surgebinding. We don't really know how that works.

 

Edit: This is a really fun topic, but very off topic. I'll make a thread and edit it and we can go discuss there!

Edit2: Thread! http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23235-surgebinding-off-world/

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Shlee]

All of this is fascinating but we keep avoiding the fact that Nightblood didn't actually didn't give Vasher any new powers. He was returned on his own... he created Nightblood (Well Shoshara? did). Nightblood is an separate entity to its wielder. A bond with a Spren however does give new abilities like using stormlight.

 

We see Vasher doing several things in Warbreaker with Nightblood drawn that he cannot do his his own. (vaporize lifeless and a giant circle in the ceiling, for starters). You could argue that that's just Nightblood, but I could also argue that Kaladin's powers are just Syl. No Syl, no windrunning. No Nightblood, no vaporizing. Yes, Vasher has abilities of his own due to being Returned, and yes Nightblood is separate, but drawing Nightblood grants new powers, just like bonding a spren does.