The Nature of Splinters

[Windrunner he/him]

By the pool, do you mean the Well of Ascension? Because that is most definitely of Preservation. There was another pool in the TFE epigraphs that was mentioned that was of Ruin, so if you're referring to that one, my apologies.

[Senor Feesh]

Ruin's pool is at the Pits of Hathsin though, right?

 

I actually have a really hard time remembering what was what as far as Ruin/Preservation and Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual. Preservation gave up most of his Cognitive aspect to form Ruin's prison, so I don't think it was the mists - if anything, the liquid form of Preservation (or perhaps the power contained within) would have been the cognitive part, as it was releasing this that removed the seal from the prison.

 

Man, Realmatics is hard.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Ruin *had* a big black lake, which was mentioned in the logbook.  Rashek buried it underground.

[dj26792 he/him]

Rashek buried it under ground, at the pits of Hathsin, I cant remember if there is more to it than that or not, but I feel like there may have been.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm pretty sure it's seperate from the pits of hathsin.

[Galavantes]

Someone better than I at finding quotes could probably find the source, but Brandon definitely confirmed that Ruin's pool was at the pits.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think there are multiple forms of manifestation possible. Wells and pools might be seperate things.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

VegasDev (16 October 2008)

The other lake in Alendi's bumps?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)

PETER AHLSTROM

Such as...this?

The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.

If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Both are accurate, but the first is what I meant, as most people here don't have access to Aether.

Dalenthas (15 October 2008)

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Aradel he/him]

I think there are multiple forms of manifestation possible. Wells and pools might be seperate things.

 

it's the "gathered consciousness" bit that has me intrigued.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aaradel

[Isomere]

From what I can see, the splinters have several attributes in common.

1) A large quantity of investiture

2) Sentience (EDIT: the ability to develop sentience)

3) A focus based on the world it is created in

4) A tendency to bond with humans.

Two confirmed Splinters: Seons, Returned

Some Suspected Splinters: Nightblood, Spren capable of Nahel bonds, the Highstorm, Honorblades

EDIT: Under strict interpretation, the splinter is the Aon at the center of the Seon and the Devine Breath at the center of the Returned. We need a term to describe a splinter interacting with a physical focus and a human spirit-bond. Since this correlates quite well to the interaction between a shard and it's holder and the combination is still referred to as a Shard, I recommend referring to a Seon spirit-bonded to a human as a Splinter of Devotion.

Here is the best list I can come up with of Shards and associated aspects: We know so little of the other shards I just left them out.

Cognitive (Liquid) - Spiritual (Gas) - Physical (Solid) - Focus

Preservation - Well of Ascension - Mists - Lerasium - Metal

Ruin - Pits of Hathsin - Black Vapor - Atium - Metal

Endowment - Unknown - Breath - Unknown (Tears of Edgli?) -Biochroma/Color

Honor - Unknown, but likely at the Origen - Stormlight - Unknown* - Waveforms^

Devotion - Elantris Pool - Dor - Unknown* - Symbols (Maps)

Dominion - Unknown - Dor? - Unknown* - Symbols (Written in Blood,Flesh or Bone)

*The last three shards are splintered; the physical form may have been completely destroyed in the process. The focus for the planet gives us hints as to where the remnants of physical essence may be hidden...

^A note on waveforms. There is good evidence that sound has been used as a focus for magics on Roshar. Examples include The dawnsingers, Dawnchant, the Dawncities, the Parshendi song, the Eternal Words, etc. There is evidence that soulcasting creates an associated sound, but unless the casting is very dramatic the sound is not audible. One example where the sound did occur is when Jasnah removes the stone debris for Taravangian.

“And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.” (From chapter 5)

It is clear that sound is insufficient to explain all the magics though. The fabrials are in part based on patterns of light that are created due to the particular cut of the soulgems (see translation of navani’s notes). So light waves may also contribute as a focus for magic. I believe that any type of resonant waveform can be the focus for magic on Roshar.

Seons: Investiture came from the destruction of Devotion, The focus is a symbol in AonDor. Their bond can be given away and is typically hereditary.

Returned: Investiture is directly from Endowment in the form of a Devine Breath. The focus is Color and they radiate a huge biochromatic aura. The bond is with the person whose breath was returned, and is permanent.

Nightblood: Accumulate enough little breaths, and you get sufficient investiture to form a splinter. The focus is color and it will drain a good sized swath to collect enough hues to support its biochromatic aura. Nightblood formed a strong bond with his creator and still tends to look for her, in spite of the fact that he and Vasher killed her.

Spren: The investiture is from the Shattered Shard of Honor. The focus is a waveform, and the bond is with a knight radiant. Spren follow mathematical probability patterns based on the research being done by Geranid. With these math equations she can predict their size, light intensity, oscillation patterns etc. That being said, they seem to randomly change between permitted values. They also demonstrate quantum entanglement, non-locality (spanreeds) and their nature and state are altered by measurement. We haven’t seen proof yet, but presumably they also demonstrate quantum tunneling. It sounds like Sanderson is drawing heavily on quantum theory, and spren are part of a probability waveform that has been invested with Honor. As such, they make perfect sense as the focus for a splinter.

The Highstorm: Investiture from the Shattered Shard of Honor. The focus is a HUGE standing wave pattern containing the journal of Tanavast. Bonds form with people that are aligned with Honor and exposed to the storm. The bond allows them to interpret the information contained in the Storm. Bonded people can “hear” this wave and have visions during the highstorms.

Honorblades: too early to know if these are sentient. If they are, then they’re probably splinters of honor.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Isomere

[ROSHtafARian]

One problem is we don't know that Sentience is an attribute of splinters.  The Divine Breaths that fuel Returned don't seem to carry any inherent sentience of their own, at least not comparable to Seons.

[dj26792 he/him]

And the splinter that is part of seons is the Aon inside them, seons aren't themselves a splinter.

[ROSHtafARian]

Right, but we don't know enough yet to know if a Seon's sentience is due to the splinter/aon at its heart, or something else.  Whereas we know the Divine Breaths don't have any sentience of their own, as far as we can see.

[dj26792 he/him]

And neither do super aons at the heart of seons, even if they are a neccessary part of the seon the splinter still isn't sentient on its own.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I get the feeling that all forms of investiture tend to make things sapient.

[ROSHtafARian]

And neither do super aons at the heart of seons, even if they are a neccessary part of the seon the splinter still isn't sentient on its own.

 

Do we know that though?  That's my point.  Unlike the Returned, which are essentially a human with its own cognitive aspect + a divine breath/splinter, we don't know yet how exactly a Seon is created and what all its made of.  So it COULD be the Splinter at its heart that is sentient, or it could derive its sapience from some other aspect of it.

[Isomere]

The issue here is just a matter of definitions, and it's identical to shard discussion. A shard does not have sentience. A shard plus a human does have sentience, but it is still called a Shard. In the same way, the actual splinter of the shard does not have sentience, but when it interacts with a physical focus it develops sentience and is still called a splinter. All splinters seen so far have paired up with the standard physical focus of the planet they were created on.

Extrapolated from this, the shards are purely spiritual entities, and must combine with a physical focus to gain sentience. Using realmatic theory, the interaction of a sufficient quantity of both spiritual and physical matter is required to develop a cognitive identity. How about a plato's cave analogy: Your physical body and your spiritual body both create a shadow. Where those two shadows overlap the cognitive aspect is formed.

The reverse argument is made on this thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3190-visualization-of-realmatics/?p=51885. It tries to explain soulcasting and basically says that if an external power changes your cognitive aspect, the physical aspect will be forced to change as well.

[Senor Feesh]

Sorry to keep harping on this point, but Brandon has confirmed that Seons are NOT splinters. The Aon at the centre of the Seon is the splinter. This being the case, I think this affects your statement that splinters are sentient (and possibly other aspects of this theory)

EDIT - thinking further on this, I think there's evidence suggesting that Splinters, like Shards, need to connect to a conscious mind to function properly.

IIRC, a Returned is not a splinter either, but the Returned Breath is, which bonds to a host that has a cognitive aspect (the recently deceased who meets the currently unknown but highly speculated upon criteria for returning).

DOUBLE EDIT - apparently I wad replying without reading the whole thread, apologies to those who had already discussed the points I was making above

Edited April 20, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[Isomere]

Completely agree that a splinter needs to interact with a human to function properly, and that without the bond they don't develop sentience. I'll explain why I think sentience is an important distinction though. It's all about thresholds.

Breath is a small fragment of Endowment, but it does not have sufficient investiture to form a Splinter. Devine Breath is a small fragment of Endowment, but it does have sufficient investiture to form a Splinter. They are basically the exact same thing, but one is just more powerfully Invested. The reason Splinters get a different name from your run-of-the-mill everyday investiture is BECAUSE they have the ability to develop their own cognitive identity (with the help of a physical focus and a spirit-bond to a human).

Now on to semantics and definitions. If anyone has a better term to refer to a Splinter-Focus-Human triad let me know and I will use that word. Until then, I suggest we all refer to this as a Splinter to be consistent with the Shard precedent. I have edited my original post to reflect this.

[hoser he/him]

I apologize to all if this thread necromancy seems like a bad way to provide new information.  I hate starting new redundant threads, but am willing to be educated.  There is new information from the 10/14/13 Seattle signing that seems to be relevent to this thread

This is a common misconception, but there's an important distinction. Seons are NOT Splinters. The Aon at the heart of a Seon is the Splinter, the not the Seon itself. (Source)

I wonder if this has evolved.  Brandon said approximately on 10/14/13 that a splinter is "a quantity of investiture that has developed independent cognition".  He has recently suggested that stormlight is basically investiture and that some spren "are" splinters.  I wonder if he would now say that Seons are splinters, as we have no evidence for sentience from the Aons at the heart of Seons.  

 

What if spren are made of Stormlight? They can be trapped in gems to make fabrials, so it's a definite possibility. And Stormlight seems to be the fuel on Roshar. If we find out in WoR that spren are made of it, that would be a big point in favor of this theory.

This seems to basically fit the information from the Seattle signing. 

 

Honestly, the way stormlight acts when people breathe it in is very similar to Vin taking in the mists.  Especially the whole 'coming out of the pores' thing.

 

I'm guessing they're both the gaseous forms of shardic power.

This seems really close.  Brandon explicitly said on 10/14/13 that the stormlight on Roshar is comparable to the mists.  I am not sure that stormlight is really a gas though.