Why does Wax need a gun?

[kroen]

He can shoot bullets without one :/

[Rubix he/him]

How fast can you throw a rock, compared to how fast a fired bullet travels? I know, it's not a very accurate comparison, but I don't really want to figure out how fast a bullet would travel with 180 lbs of force applied to it. But I'm fairly sure that It's slower than it would be fired out of a gun. 

 

Also, with a fired bullet, Wax can apply additional force to it as it travels, making it impact even harder. Gunpowder + SteelPushing = AWESOME.

[kroen]

You forget Wax can make himself heavier. 180 lbs? try 1800.

 

And besides, coinshots were pretty effective in the original trilogy, and they used coins which don't penetrate as well as bullets (yet they did).

Edited April 14, 2013 by kroen

[Joe ST he/him]

So now he can do it with less effort on his part. Less effort is always better.

EDIT: yes I'm totally too lazy to think of a better reason

[Rubix he/him]

You forget Wax can make himself heavier. 180 lbs? try 1800.

 

And besides, coinshots were pretty effective in the original trilogy, and they used coins which don't penetrate as well as bullets (yet they did).

 

Don't assume what I am or am not forgetting. I know full well that he can increase his weight, but increasing by that much would trash his reserves if he did it for every shot. 

And as you seem to have ignored: Wax can add his steelpush to a bullet shot out of a gun. So yes, he could probably get a bullet going at fired speed on his own, but how fast could he get one going if it was fired before he started steelpushing it?

 

Also, increased aiming ability, and ability to fire off multiple shots in rapid succession. Assume he's got two six-shot revolvers. That's twelve shots that he just has to point and pull the trigger on. With coins, you have to push a single coin after lining up your shot, or just push your entire handful, as was more common for battle use during the first series. Vin almost always tossed a handful at someone, then pushed on it. I assume that means that it's much less accurate than a pistol, and is more comparable to a shotgun.

[kroen]

I didn't ignore it. I'm only at page 140, but he did push on flying bullets. I guess I see where you're going with this, I just didn't think it that much through. The first thought I had when I read that he uses gun was "wow really? why?" but now I kinda get it.

[Satsuoni he/him]

That did make curious as to whether a coins hot could impart as much energy as a gun, though.

Any coinshot has to be able to Push more than his natural weight to be able to lift himself off the ground. I don't know about imperial system, so I'll go with Rubix figure of 180 and assume it to be lbf Then, with target at 10 feet and continuous push, that gives 1800 ft-lbf penetration, which, according to Wiki, is muzzle energy of a "7.62x51mm rifle "

That does, of course, assume pretty huge recoil, so presumably, most coinshots push coins with less force, unless they want to put some distance between them and the target...

That also presumes I've got metric system right

[Chaos he/him]

I think it would be very advantageous to have a gun, damage arguments aside, because you can conserve your metals more in a combat situation and you don't have to carry around coins. Guns and bullets work without Allomancy, coins don't, so it's just smarter to carry bullets and use them instead.

[Joe ST he/him]

Especially in a world where Leechers can leach ya

[kroen]

I think it would be very advantageous to have a gun, damage arguments aside, because you can conserve your metals more in a combat situation and you don't have to carry around coins. Guns and bullets work without Allomancy, coins don't, so it's just smarter to carry bullets and use them instead.

Why is everyone still talking about coins? You do realize a coinshot can also shoot bullets (without a gun), and not just coins right?

[Tarontos he/him]

Why is everyone still talking about coins? You do realize a coinshot can also shoot bullets (without a gun), and not just coins right?

A bullet is roughly the same as using a coin, also you would be wasting your money buying bullets instead of coins if your just going to be a coin-shot with no gun. Bullets are ridiculously expensive for uncommon gun types such as Wax's custom made guns, assuming modern economics can be applied.

[kroen]

A bullet is roughly the same as using a coin, also you would be wasting your money buying bullets instead of coins if your just going to be a coin-shot with no gun. Bullets are ridiculously expensive for uncommon gun types such as Wax's custom made guns, assuming modern economics can be applied.

Why would a coinshot with no gun need special bullets?

[Joe ST he/him]

Why would a coinshot with no gun need special bullets?

Why would a coinshot needs bullets if they were not taking on people that need special bullets

These are spoilers for the end of Alloy of Law, dude. If you've not yet finished, you should come back when you're read it all

[Morsk he/him]

Here's another thing; bullets are made to be fired out of barrels, and can be aimed this way, and are aerodynamic when used this way. Those are advantages over coins, but only when they're used with a gun, or at least a barrel. Maybe an Allomantic powderless gun is possible, but Allomancers Push from their center of gravity, not the end of a barrel like a gun does, so there would be tricks in its implementation I don't know enough physics to figure out.

[Senor Feesh]

Consider rifling as well, a buller from a rifled barrel will fly further and more accurately than a coin

[Sirscott13 he/him]

I thought about this when I read it, but what I came to conclude is the accuracy based on arm movements. I don't mean to sound blunt but does anyone know how hard it would be to aim coins accurately based on the angle projected from your chest? He would have to hold the coins in his hand at the perfect angle between his center of gravity and target. A gun however only requires the movement of your wrist. Making for easier and quicker adjustments in aim and accuracy

[happyman he/him]

I have to agree with folks that the mechanical aspects of a gun--essentially controlling and optimizing the bullets paths and speed, including rifleing--are the reason he carries them.  Just like an awful lot of our technology improves our natural abilities, guns enhance coinshots.  No reason not to have them.

[Shivertongue he/him]

Simple.

 

Other people on Scadrial have guns.

 

Wax was in a line of work where some of these people were often shooting at him.

 

And steel doesn't grow on trees. Let yourself depend on Allomancy, and you're setting yourself up to get shot when you don't have ready metals. Better to be able to shoot them first.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Simple.

 

Other people on Scadrial have guns.

 

Wax was in a line of work where some of these people were often shooting at him.

 

And steel doesn't grow on trees. Let yourself depend on Allomancy, and you're setting yourself up to get shot when you don't have ready metals. Better to be able to shoot them first.

To be fair, that just moves the question from 'what if you don't have steel' to 'what if you don't have guns'.

[Joe ST he/him]

But due to supply&demand, guns will be cheaper. Since there's always more people that can and will use then

[Galavantes]

To be fair, that just moves the question from 'what if you don't have steel' to 'what if you don't have guns'.

Carry both, then you're safe.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

But due to supply&demand, guns will be cheaper. Since there's always more people that can and will use then

Not really, man. The manufacturing price for precision machining is WAY higher than just grinding up an ingot of steel.

[Senor Feesh]

Not really, man. The manufacturing price for precision machining is WAY higher than just grinding up an ingot of steel.

 

The steel also has to be prepared in the correct ratios for Allomantic purposes and stored correctly. Not that this makes it more expensive than precision guncrafting, but it would close the gap.

 

And don't underestimate the power of  supply/demand, competition and economic factors.

 

Still, I feel the primary reasons for a coinshot carrying have been well established above.

[Shivertongue he/him]

What it comes down to, and what I was trying to say in my last post, is that limiting yourself in the Roughs is a stupid idea. Wax is a smart enough guy to know he can't rely on either guns or Allomancy, so he's made sure to develop skill with both. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[Aethling he/him]

Just as a comparison:

 

A US half dollar is 11.34 grams.  That comes to roughly 175 grains give or take.  Ammunition for .40 sw is commonly available from 165 to 180 grains.  The half dollar is 1.24 inches in diameter.  The .40 sw is 4/10 of an inch, roughly 1/3 the size.

 

A coinshot shooting six half dollars is shooting $3.00 worth of coins.  A .40 sw bullet comes to roughly $.30 each.  That gives you ten shots for the same money as the coins.  Wax shooting those ten shots is going to be more accurate simply because he is going to be aiming them better than using  shotgun approach to a coinburst.

 

Coins are fixed in size.  A bullet can be designed to break apart, mushroom, or even keep its shape without deformation.  A hollowpoint mushrooming is devastating to the surrounding tissue.  Something like a black talon or golden saber is designed to mushroom with sharp edges which causes even more damage.

 

I chose a half-dollar because it was the easiest comparison to a popular handgun cartridge.  If someone wants to bother, you can do the comparison yourself for the remainder

 

 

Denomination Penny Nickel Dime Quarter Composition 2.5% Copper, Balance Zinc 25% Nickel, Balance Copper 8.33% Nickel, Balance Copper 8.33% Nickel, Balance Copper Weight 2.500 grams 5.000 grams 2.268 grams 5.670 grams Diameter 0.750 inch
19.1 mm 0.835 inch
21.2 mm 0.705 inch
17.9 mm 0.955 inch
24.3 mm

 

 

Obviously, that is comparing a fantasy realm to a modern realm with modern currency, but then that is pretty much the only comparison we can really do.