Reviving a dead topic: Szeth's Shardblade is an Honourblade

[Aether he/him]

Now, I realise that most people on this forum is probably sick to death about this subject, but there is a little piece of new evidence in the Jasnah WoR chapter that I haven't seen anyone quoting in reference to Szeth's Shardblade.

Now, I won't get into a discussion about how his blade differs from most other Shardblades, and how some suggest that it might be the origin of his powers. Instead, consider this quote:

 

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done is wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

- From the Jasnah preview chapter of WoR

The one who's speaking is the squeamish companion of what is most likely Darkness from the Lift Interlude, who is again presumed to be the Herald Nalan. Given his familiarly association with the latter, the former could also assumed to be a Herald, quite possibly Kalak. So who is the lord he's talking about then? If they really are Heralds, then could it be Jezrien, the "King of Heralds"? I bet that the "creature" that he is referring to is Szeth though, given the context of the chapter - mere minutes before he is unleashed on his murderous rampage to assassinate King Gavilar. So, could this then be an indirect confirmation that the Truthless' blade is indeed an Honourblade?

 

Now, I realise that this is based on a LOT of assumptions, but even so, it fits so beautifully into the context. More so than actual direct evidence, this feels like a last piece of a puzzle that finally lets you see the whole picture. Anyway, I'd like to get others to chime in here.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

This quote has actually been very very popular on here, you may just not be seeing it where you normally post. Sorry I'll see if I can find the threads for you, but you are on target with what most people assumed after reading.

[Aether he/him]

'Twould be appreciated, as I'd like to know more about why I've suddenly embraced this theory.

[Argent he/him]

Szeth's Blade was given to him by the Stone Shamans, though. Or at least there is nothing that suggests otherwise and some that points in that direction.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Well if the Stone Shamans have the Honorblades, then give one to Szeth, he can still have "my lord's own Blade" and it lines up correctly.

[Argent he/him]

"We shouldn't have let him keep it" doesn't play well with this. Letting someone keep something often implies that this something was either yours in the first place, or that you were in position to take the something away. Nothing in Szeth's story matches either option.

[Meg]

I disagree. We don't have any idea when -- if it's Szeth's blade they are talking about -- they found out about Szeth having it. It could have been after him becoming Truthless (and getting the blade). Though we don't know how, the Stone Shamans seem to have the task to ensure Szeth's blade will be recovered if he dies.

 

 

edit:

He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

TWoK I-6

Edited November 1, 2013 by Meg

[The Count he/him]

I agree this quote is suggestive, they seem to be referring to Szeth and they imply that he has a sword that once belonged to a Lord of theirs who logically could be Jezrien, assuming they are indeed both Heralds.

 

But there are still too many arguments against the Honorblade theory for me

 

1/ The Honorblades are all described as a work of art, Szeth's is not described in this fashion and I got the feeling it was quite plain and utilitarian.

 

2/ The size of the blade seems tailored for fighting humans rather than monsters. The arguments for the blade changing size to the weilder I find unconvincing.

 

3/ It is implied that Szeths blade will be recoverable when he dies. Honorblades dissappear when the weilder dies.

 

4/ When Szeth drops his blade in the fight with Gavilar it dissappears. When Taln falls unconcious, his blade (almost definitely an Honorblade) clatters to the floor (it does not dissappear).

 

5/ The 'Three types of Shardblade' word of Brandon. To me: Honorblades, Radiantblades, Szeth's Blade.

 

I do believe that his bond with the blade sizes Szeth his powers, but I am inclined to believe that is it is either a very old blade (as in pre Helraldic Epochs) or very new (as in forged in the modern era).

Edited November 1, 2013 by MadRand

[Meg]

Upvote for pointing out the obvious:

 

 

 

3/ It is implied that Szeths blade will be recoverable when he dies. Honorblades dissappear when the weilder dies.

 

4/ When Szeth drops his blade in the fight with Gavilar it dissappears. When Taln falls unconcious, his blade (almost definitely an Honorblade) clatters to the floor (it does not dissappear).

 

Why didn't I see this?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Meg

[Aether he/him]

I agree this quote is suggestive, they seem to be referring to Szeth and they imply that he has a sword that once belonged to a Lord of theirs who logically could be Jezrien, assuming they are indeed both Heralds.

 

But there are still too many arguments against the Honorblade theory for me

 

1/ The Honorblades are all described as a work of art, Szeth's is not described in this fashion and I got the feeling it was quite plain and utilitarian.

 

2/ The size of the blade seems tailored for fighting humans rather than monsters. The arguments for the blade changing size to the weilder I find unconvincing.

 

3/ It is implied that Szeths blade will be recoverable when he dies. Honorblades dissappear when the weilder dies.

 

4/ When Szeth drops his blade in the fight with Gavilar it dissappears. When Taln falls unconcious, his blade (almost definitely an Honorblade) clatters to the floor (it does not dissappear).

 

5/ The 'Three types of Shardblade' word of Brandon. To me: Honorblades, Radiantblades, Szeth's Blade.

 

I do believe that his bond with the blade sizes Szeth his powers, but I am inclined to believe that is it is either a very old blade (as in pre Helraldic Epochs) or very new (as in forged in the modern era).

 

1. Well, the descriptions of the blade has been more about the unusual shape of the blade. He hasn't described it as neither dull nor ostentatious, so it could be that it simply hasn't come up that it is in fact one of the most beautiful works of art ever seen by man. Unlikely, though.
2. The size of Jezriens blade (nor any of them except Taln's, really) haven't been described or compared to anything yet. While hardly that persuasive, it could still be that the Honourblades -  or at least some of them - are in fact smaller than most Shardblades.
3. Now this I dismiss out of hand. Honourblades dissappear when their Herald dies. We know nothing of what would happen if another holder would die (and WoB state that others can in fact use them).
4. They can, however, dismiss them, so we know they can go back to Shadesmar even without having the owner dying. Maybe they behave differently for mere mortals.
5. A good a suggestion as the lot of them. Nothing to say on this.

I'm glad to see some counter-arguments. I am still not convinced that it is not an Honourblade, but less sure then before. Windrunners still have more then the Three Lashings, though.

[The Count he/him]

3. Now this I dismiss out of hand. Honourblades dissappear when their Herald dies. We know nothing of what would happen if another holder would die (and WoB state that others can in fact use them).

 

This is a good point. Given the Honorblades implicit tie to the oathpact it may only be case that they dissappear on the death of the Herald (i.e. the one who agreed to the oathpact).

 

In fact we already know that regular shardblades behave slightly differently for weilders other than their Radiant (they do not glow or have glyphs) so there is some precedent for what you suggest.

 

Still suposition though so I am not quite ready to dissmiss the observations.

Edited November 1, 2013 by MadRand

[Aether he/him]

Still suposition though so I am not quite ready to dissmiss the observations.

And neither should you. Truth to be told, we have only slight indications of what might possibly - just maybe - be taken for a hint of whiff of every so flimsy, suppositional evidence. I am honestly baffled that we can deduce anything at all.

[hoser he/him]

I agree this quote is suggestive, they seem to be referring to Szeth and they imply that he has a sword that once belonged to a Lord of theirs who logically could be Jezrien, assuming they are indeed both Heralds.

 

But there are still too many arguments against the Honorblade theory for me

 

1/ The Honorblades are all described as a work of art, Szeth's is not described in this fashion and I got the feeling it was quite plain and utilitarian.

...

 

5/ The 'Three types of Shardblade' word of Brandon. To me: Honorblades, Radiantblades, Szeth's Blade.

To MadRand's excellent list I would add:

 

6/ Taln's eyes are dark when he carries his Honorblade.  Radiantblades apparently lighten at least some people's eyes permanently and in a way that affects their descendants.  The Szethblade temporarily lightens and changes his eye color, but his eyes apparently revert when he is not using it.  

Edited November 1, 2013 by hoser

[Argent he/him]

We don't actually know whether Shardblades really turn a darkeyes into lighteyes - it's a legend that we have seen no confirmation for. And since Mistborn, I am skeptical of legends...

[Meg]

We don't actually know whether Shardblades really turn a darkeyes into lighteyes - it's a legend that we have seen no confirmation for. And since Mistborn, I am skeptical of legends...

 

I think Hoser's referring to events much much earlier in history than you:

 

The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night,

 

...

 

he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white.

 

 

TWoK Chapter 19

 

Dalinar caught up to the Radiants—they weren’t walking very quickly—and grabbed one by the arm. The man turned; his skin was tan and his hair dark, like an Alethi. His eyes were of the palest blue. Unnaturally so, in fact—the irises were nearly white.

 

TWoK Chapter 52

 

Given that the Starfalls-vision describes a scene prior to the Recreance it seems obvious that (all) Radiants had light eyes (--> so Lighteyes might derive from Radiants?). From where should those light eyes come if not from ancestors? I think it's safe to say that the nowadays-Lighteyes don't have light eyes because of bearing a Shardblade, is it?

[hoser he/him]

We don't actually know whether Shardblades really turn a darkeyes into lighteyes - it's a legend that we have seen no confirmation for. And since Mistborn, I am skeptical of legends...

What meg said, and I only made the claim about Radiantblades, not Szeth/Shamanblades or Honorblades. 

 

Consider the Recreance vision. Pre-Recreance: darkeyes are in command and apparently only Radiants have Shardblades and lighteyes.  How else do you get to where everybody with a Shardblade is lighteyed and exclusively part of the nobility?  Or do you reject the Recreance vision?

[Nedwick]

I am not willing to say that pre-Recreance only the Radiants had lighteyes. I would be willing to guess that pre-Recreance only the Radiants had unnaturally light eyes. "Light tan" sounds like the female's eyes were originally brown; "light blue" sounds like the Radiant's eyes were originally blue.

 

The eyes becoming unnaturally white could be related to the blade, or it could be related to surgebinding. In any event, the association of Radiants with unnaturally light eyes could have devolved into an aristocracy led by people with blue or green eyes.

[hoser he/him]

Welcome! 

 

Consider, after the Recreance, the Radiants don't have blades and are known as traitors to mankind.  A bunch of darkeyes pick up the blades.  How would the situation evolve to where only lighteyes have shardblades and the lighteyes are the nobility? 

 

If I have darkeyes and a Shardblade, no unSharded light-eyed person will rule me or my descendants or take our Shardblade, ever. 

 

The eyes are presumably linked to the spiritual realm (which would explain why they burn out when a person is Shardbladed), where the blades may reside when unsummoned.  Binding to a blade could change the SDNA relating to eye color, which would be passed to descendents. 

 

We are told over and over how this works.  That may be a good reason to doubt it, but Alethela got along just fine for millenia without normally blue and green -eyed people in charge.  Why would that change post-Recreance?  Given the reputation of the Radiants and the fact that the normally blue and green -eyed people were already around and not in charge, I don't understand how the devolution you describe would occur. 

[Argent he/him]

That's a good call, Nedwick - Teft, I believe, mentions Kaladin's eyes turning light in the chapter we have from Words of Radiance. That could explain some things.

[Meg]

In the Kaladin-reading Teft didn't say he saw Kal's eyes become light.

 

“Do we have to learn use the sword?”
“You’re still darkeyed, Moash.”
“Not you, though,” Teft said from the other side. “I saw your eyes during the—”

 

The sentence has an open end. Too, Kaladin's eyes apparently are still dark. Given that Kal kind of "bursted" with light after saying the Second Ideal, I'd say it could be that Teft errs and only saw what he wanted to see.

 

That leads me to the thought that the use of Stormlight (Stormlight leaking from the body -- and from the eyes) might have had an impact (right word?) on the eye color. So the longer people used stormlight the brighter the eyes became. We see that Dalinar mentions that the eyes of the KR he saw in his visions were apparently much lighter than the eyes of nowadays Lighteyes. Those changes might have been given to the children. Mixing with Darkeyes and no longer using Stormlight made the eyes of Lighteyes darker again (than they were before the Recreance).

 

Thoughts?

[hoser he/him]

It's meant to be hard to tell what Kaladin looked like.  The possibilities I see are:

• Eyes leaking light and glowing while infusing
• Eyes lightening while infusing in addition to glowing

 

When Dalinar refers to that time, he refers to him as "taking charge like a lighteyes" or something similar.  When he rescues Dalinar (the first time they meet in person), he is invested (he put most of his stormlight in the ground, but kept enough to keep going), but Dalinar describes him as darkeyed. 

 

If there is a temporary lightening of Kaladin's eyes while invested, it still doesn't explain the lighteyed Radiants at the end of the Radiance vision or the enduring Alethi nobility, so it seems irrelevent to the differences between Szeth's blade and the other blades we've seen. 

 

Szeth/Shamanblade changes eye color temporarily.  Radiantblades either have no effect or permanently lighten eyes (even affecting descendants).  The only Honorblade we've seen leaves the eyes dark when borne.  So it seems a valid argument against the Szethblade=Honorblade thesis.

[Gloom he/him]

The way I see it, when Kaladin is heavily invested, chock full of Stormlight, his eyes become a lighter shade because they are being back-lit by Stormlight. The less Stormlight Kaladin is holding, the lower the back-lighting. When Kaladin is holding just enough Stormlight to maintain his edge, the affect would be almost unnoticeable.

 

As far as the Honorblade theory goes, well, they were created to be held by the Heralds. Who knows how they will affect others?

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I don't understand why credit is given to the idea that the size of Szeth's blade means it was built for humans. I recall a thread that discussed this a lot, citing different types of weapons and their purposes and comparing the description to Szeth's blade, but those purposes don't even carry over in real life. If someone took a look at a .50 caliber rifle and had to describe the animal that might require such firepower, I'm sure they would describe something similar to a large bear. But we use them on men. 

That's not to say that it is not a possibility, that just seems like some really rough logic to use for validating a theory. Consider that Szeth's masters - whoever gave him the blade - might have chosen from a collection and thought "Well, we want this guy to kill humans, so.... this one." Or maybe all Honorblades are small because they were originally not intended to kill Thunderclasts. Or it was known that beings in possession of powers as great as those the Heralds posses would maybe do better with smaller, more controllable Blades.

[hoser he/him]

The killer for this theory (which I once agreed with) for me was the WoB that we have seen 3 types of Shardblade in tWoK.  With the unique effect on Szeth's eyes, this blade is the only one that seems different from the Honorblades and Radiantblades that we know are two of the types.  None of the other modern Shardblades that we have seen seem distinct from the Radiantblades that they presumably once were.  Some evidence has been accumulating that Hoid's blade may be an awakened blade, but would that make it a Shardblade?  If we could find another candidate blade representing the third type of Shardblade, that would strengthen this theory IMO. 

[Aether he/him]

Wait, he meant that we've seen three types of Shardblades already in tWoK?

 

And This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules? Hoid has a Shardblade? I mean, I guess it makes sense, but where is this written?

 

Also, I don't really believe that that particular WoB invalidate the "Szeth has an Honourblade" theory. If Honourblades are counted as a type of Shardbalde, than that could mean that the three types are 1. Honourblades, 2. "Awakened" Shardblades and 3. "Normal" Shardblades.