Stormlight and fGold: Steelhunt Edition

[Gloom he/him]

 I apologize if I conveyed my thoughts poorly. I find my framework quite non-circular, myself.

 

Where, exactly, have I waffled on what healing is? I specified two broad categories for the sake of this discussion: those that are just normal healing on steroids and those that strive towards some "target" form. The second doesn't mention the Cognitive primarily because Divine Breath is weird

 

To answer your question more directly: No, as marianmi pointed out, the healing rules as I understand them would not normally allow Renarin's blood weakness of Kaladin's scars to heal. Divine Breath could do it, maybe AonDor could do it, Forgery could do it for limited period of time. But (probably) Regrowth, permanent Resealing, and Feruchemical gold most certainly could not.

 

So basically, your theory on how healing in the Cosmere works, the theory you defend with a great deal of certainty, has not just one hole in it, but three. When people speak of the exception to the rule, they aren't generally talking about multiple exceptions. The more exceptions you need to make for a theory, the less plausible that theory becomes, yet you adamantly defend this theory to be THE way that healing works period. The very fact that your theory requires one to make three exceptions so early in the cycle of information we will eventually receive tells me that this theory is wrong, or at the least far from complete.

 

I shot down your argument for Intents affecting the way healing works because it was wrong, Gloom, not because it muddied my "pat little system." Sorry if you find that ridiculous, but Brandon has been quite clear on this subject:

 

Yes, well lets take a look at this quote a little closer.

 

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

 

Now I see where you're coming from. You look at the third line down and you have an answer that repudiates anyone who would suggest otherwise pretty effectively if they just look at that line. I read this quote quite differently though. Lets look at the first sentence of this quote instead. "One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role"

 

So in this sentence, Brandon tells us quite clearly that Shards can fuel interactions based on the personality/role, but that they are not limited by their personality/role. He said 'not just', he didn't say 'just not'

 

Now lets skip the second sentence since I'm sure you're very familiar with it and move on to the third sentence in which Brandon provides an example to clarify what the second sentence means. "So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy."

 

Wow, look at that, Brandon is using the Shards intent to describe what is happening in the magic system. Preservation is preserving, and Ruin is ruining. How is this proof that the Shards intent is not involved in the magic system?

 

And one last point before I'm done with this topic.

 

"In a lot of my magic systems dealing with the Cosmere, I work into healing as healing back to the form of yourself; that you know yourself as, as the world knows you as."

 

Brandon didn't say in every single magic system ever with no exceptions. The fact that he leaves room for exceptions means they will exist, and in fact I believe they already exist. I'm pretty sure that your theory is solid as a rock on Scadrial, but it's rather flimsy when you apply it to the Cosmere.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I do not appreciate your tone, Gloom.

 

That said, I find myself somewhat at a loss. You're attributing radical stances to me that I have never even implied, so far as I can see. The exceptions to the rule of returning to Cognitive aspects, exceptions which I rather freely point out and am quite willing to go into more depth on, aren't something I'm trying to sneak under the door. Also, those exceptions are still quite firmly on the "not like Allomantic pewter" side of any division you care to make, so my main point is rather untouched.

 

I am sorry that I seem to have communicated my thoughts so very poorly to you, and would be happy to try and explain them further, if only you would care to highlight the sections of my posts that lead you so far astray; I suppose I'll leave it at this, though, as you've already said you're "done with this topic."

 

P.S. Also, you're reinterpretation of the WoB is rather squirrely, I must say. More on that if you elect to return to the discussion.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Here here. Nothing more awkward than a discussion where one party is significantly more emotional/aggressive than the others. Trolling makes baby Jesus cry, folks. Hugs all around? Hugs.

[Oudeis he/him]

Ahem.

First, you have questioned my theory. Pistols at dawn.

Second, I am going to speak of tattoos now. I am not going to cite any sources or link any quotes. If you doubt my qualifications to discuss tattoos from experience, I ask you to look at my profile pic. If you want to challenge my authority on this subject, please have a tattoo at least half as big as that one or a citation that does not begin with the letters 'wiki'.

Rapid healing causes tattoos to fade. The process works like this. Wounds bleed, expressly for the purpose of forcing out foreign matter (among other reasons). Ink is foreign matter. The more you bleed while getting a tattoo, the more ink will be forced out. The less ink inside of you, the more faded a tattoo would be.

A tattoo needs to remain as a wound and a scar while the stuff under your skin happens. It isn't like putting a lobster in a pot and then slamming the lid down. Healing as shown in a-pewter would be detrimental to the formation of a vibrant tattoo. If, as I theorize, stormlight operates on a similar but empowered principle, the rapid healing would push out most if not all of the ink.

Lastly, those of you paying attention will realize that I said getting a tattoo is a very bloody process. However stormlight travels in your body, we know that Kaladin's and Szeth's wounds bled stormlight instead of blood. I don't think any of us are qualified to wonder how stormlight would treat a foreign invader in the body, but I think the stormlight forcing the ink out of the bleeding wound is certainly one plausible scenario.

In conclusion, the idea that stormlight is the same type of healing as a-pewter, just stronger, is plausible given the tattoo example. Further the specific phenomenon of wounds bleeding stormlight, syllogized with the phenomenon of bleeding tattoo wounds, makes this specific scenario very likely too idiosyncratic to be of any use in the debate.

::drops mike, walks away::

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Lol Well said, Mac! "You want citations? How's about THESE citations?!"

Why can I not upvote on mobile??

[Oudeis he/him]

Take an upvote for the thought that counts.

 

Also if anyone is confused, Mac is my real name. I guess I should put it in a sig or something.

[Aether he/him]

I don't really mean to necro this Thread, but I'd like to comment on a very specific topic.

Wow, look at that, Brandon is using the Shards intent to describe what is happening in the magic system. Preservation is preserving, and Ruin is ruining. How is this proof that the Shards intent is not involved in the magic system?

Sorry, Gloom, but I think it is wrong to say that the Shards' intent is involved in the magic system. The workings of Allomancy itself - not looking at how and why it was it was obtained - is end-positive (I cannot find the WoB right now, but I'll edit it in later). You burn metals as a way of tapping the power of Preservation itself. Pushing and pulling on metals, rioting and soothing, etc. has little if anything at all to do with preserving anything.

 

It still takes part in it, but more in how or why it is obtained - as has been said over and over in this Thread. What Kurk and others suggest, on the other hand, is that we can look past any given Shards intent when it comes to the workings of the magic systems. Preservation's Intent has nothing to do with the burning of metals and its effects, just as Honour's has nothing to do with Gravity lashing.

 

::drops mike, walks away::

Wait, whence did you get the mike? Also, up-vote for the in-depth look look at the process of tattooing.

[Oudeis he/him]

 

Wait, whence did you get the mike? Also, up-vote for the in-depth look look at the process of tattooing.

 

I agree with all the stuff you said. I think that Intents have, at best, a tangential correlation to their magic systems. Except for Endowment, and as I've said before, that's because just about any magic system can be considered "giving one thing to something".

 

I own a karaoke machine; I travel everywhere with the two microphones.

 

And yes, "in-depth" certainly describes my tattoo experience... only a fraction of an inch deep, granted, but I assure you, that was enough.

 

Hrm... there was talk once of using metallic ink in tattoos as metalminds, which was rather soundly rejected. What about hemalugic spikes? How deep into your body is the bindpoint? Are any along the skin, and could a very small spike be placed just under the skin? Presumably since people can survive having their brain stabbed with a spike bloody from the death of a victim, metal toxicity isn't an issue.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, piercings work as Hema spikes, so at least some bind points should not be very deep, though a bit deeper than normal tattoo, I'd guess, since it has to reliably draw blood the first time it goes in. You could also have a tatto of fine wire piecing a bind point ( even deep one) and then forming a pattern with the remaining tail that can be arbitrarily long... Why would someone want such a thing, though... And yes, Hema charge seems to protect metal from rusting and body from poisoning or rejecting the thing, so presumably it would keep.

[Aether he/him]

I seem to remember that the Inquisitors of WoA or at least HoA did use their spikes as metalminds. I might remember this wrong, though, because it strikes me as rather odd that Feruchemy would not conflict with the Investiture of the Hemalurgic spike.

[Satsuoni he/him]

They did, and it does not Simply because Investiture is too diluted in this case, with Scadrial being amongst the least Investiture- rich worlds ( manifestation-wise ) Sorry about not using quotes from the phone. Think of the charges as being of different wavelengths of the signal. Or simply orthogonal.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Aether he/him]

That would make more sense.

 

I wonder if you could, by the same logic, hypothetically use a Shardplate as a metalmind. Given, it is by no means certain that a Plate is made of metal in the first place -  even less so the right kinds of metal - but the question is more theoretical than practical anyway. Would a Shardplate - being more or less nothing but Investiture if we are right about what Brandon is hinting at - still treat a feruchemical charge as orthogonal? 

[Kurkistan he/him]

On a phone so no citations at the moment, but just so you know:

Plate is metal.

Feruchemical charges at likely stored in separate parts of the metal from the Hemalurgic charges, rather than orthogonally overlying them.

Objects can and do get "full" of Investiture; Shardblades, for instance, don't have enough capacity left over to be used as spikes.

[Oudeis he/him]

 though a bit deeper than normal tattoo, I'd guess, since it has to reliably draw blood the first time it goes in.

 

Tattoos draw blood. I've personally never heard of, and never had myself, a tattoo "shallow" enough not to draw blood. I don't know if you've ever cut yourself shaving, but you barely have to scratch a human to get to blood. I'll double-check, but I'm fully confident that anything deeper than "painting on top of skin" will draw blood.

[marianmi]

Erm, shardplates cracking and breaking is a bit strange behaviour for a metal... or at least a metal important for feruchemists... isn't it?

[Shardlet he/him]

Well, Dalinar uses the word 'molten' to describe the pieces of a shattered portion of plate.  That is not to suggest that molten only applies to metal, but rather, we are not talking about normal conditions.  On top of which, we are talking about a heavily invested chunk of stuff.  The normal expectations for metals would not likely apply here. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

On metal:

 

It's referred to as metal in "Starfalls" and "Eshonai" in WoK. Brandon has said it looks "metallic". He also treated questions about Allomantically affecting it seriously, answering in terms of Investiture rather than Plate just not being metal.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet he/him]

The other thing I found that supported metal plate was this:

 

 

 

Part 2, Chapter 13, Page 209
“Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow.”

[Satsuoni he/him]

Tattoos draw blood. I've personally never heard of, and never had myself, a tattoo "shallow" enough not to draw blood. I don't know if you've ever cut yourself shaving, but you barely have to scratch a human to get to blood. I'll double-check, but I'm fully confident that anything deeper than "painting on top of skin" will draw blood.

(checks) Yes, you are right, they go through dermis, so they disrupt the capillaries there. I am just not sure that capillaries count as enough blood for Hemalurgy, or if you need to go though dermis and subcutaneous layer for larger vessels. Some bindpoints (like the eyespikes) seem to be obviously deeper than you get with tattoo. I am still not sure why would you want to have such a tattoo? Better make a spike shaped as Dakhor bone (BTW, I don't shave, I just use tweezers)

 

As an aside, an evil tattoo tech might be able to steal your attribute with a steel/iron needle

 

That would make more sense.

 

I wonder if you could, by the same logic, hypothetically use a Shardplate as a metalmind. Given, it is by no means certain that a Plate is made of metal in the first place -  even less so the right kinds of metal - but the question is more theoretical than practical anyway. Would a Shardplate - being more or less nothing but Investiture if we are right about what Brandon is hinting at - still treat a feruchemical charge as orthogonal? 

As Kurk pointed out, no, not really:

 

Herowannabe

My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."

It is important to keep in mind that Investiture is a non-negative quantity (above or equal to zero), so there is a limitation on the number of possible orthogonal "vectors". For example, if we represent an object with 4 numbers (0000), then (1020) and (0205) are orthogonal to each other, but something like (1221) doesn't have any orthogonal vectors with non-negative values, it is "full" (zero doesn't count).

Edited December 10, 2013 by Satsuoni