More Potential Proof for a Possible Knight of Radiance [Spoilers]

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

I am once again rereading The Way of Kings, and I just now figured something out. We all (most?) assume that Jasnah Kholin is a KR (well, she can do some Soulcasting without a fabrial), but we are never exactly given proof.

But:

Jasnah Kholin has upheld the second Ideal "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" a few times (at least once), despite never saying the Words. When she killed the four street thugs, she even mentioned that she was protecting future travelers of that specific street.

Just as a little more reason to think she is. Now, does anyone know if Brandon ever said that she sees a spren (as in how Kaladin sees Syl)?

Edited November 16, 2013 by Stroniax

[Argent he/him]

A couple of things:

• Second Ideal. Ordeal would be something completely different 
• Only the First Ideal ("Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination") is shared between all the Orders. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" is the Windrunners' Second Ideal, and since Jasnah is an Elsecaller, she would have to say different words.
• We don't have an official confirmation that Jasnah sees a spren, but the prologue of Words of Radiance suggests that it was around the time of Gavilar's murder that she begins to see and/or interact with her spren. It's a vague suggestion though, nothing official or straightforward. 

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

Wait. So are there only five ideals per order? I thought it was ten, and four of them were shared.

Jasnah is an Elsecaller? Is that another bit of WoR info, or WoB? Or an assumption/theory? And is an Eslecaller an Order, or am I terribly mistaken?

[Shardlet he/him]

WoB, although that could be a reference to her skillset rather than her destiny.  Elsecallers is indeed an order which has the transportation (or travel) surge and the transformation surge.

[cem he/him]

Wait. So are there only five ideals per order? I thought it was ten, and four of them were shared.

Nope, five Ideals per Order. The first is standard, the next 4 changes depending on the order.

[Natans he/him]

I maybe be wrong. But Teft said that which order had different ideals based in the "Way of Kings" that had 40 parables.

 

So 10 order x 4 unique ideals( the fist one are shared among all) = 40 ideals.

 

One ideal for parable.

 

This make sense given the fact that Nohadon wrote the book was a guide book for the KR. What is futher confirmed given the fact that Gavilar was "studying" the book to understand what are the "Most important words that a man can say" AKA the 40 (plus one) Ideals.

 

So Jasnah ideals wasn't revelead yet =)

Edited November 16, 2013 by Natans

[Shardlet he/him]

Except, we don't know that that is what Gavilar meant by "the most important words..." and we don't know whether Nohadon developed the ideals or if he discovered them.  I also don't know that we know of any direct relationship between Nohadon and the KR.  It could well be that the KR (or whoever establish the KR) liked the Way of Kings and adopted it.

[11thorderknight]

Except, we don't know that that is what Gavilar meant by "the most important words..." and we don't know whether Nohadon developed the ideals or if he discovered them.  I also don't know that we know of any direct relationship between Nohadon and the KR.  It could well be that the KR (or whoever establish the KR) liked the Way of Kings and adopted it.

I guess it's a possibility that Gavilar was talking about something else...but given that he had recently become obsessed with the Way of Kings, it's a pretty good guess. My theory is that the book gives 41 parables of "honorable behavior" that exemplify the Ideals, and then it's up to the reader to see if any of them "click", and then "find the words".

[Shardlet he/him]

I'll gladly grant you that it is a reasonable guess.  But, it is not a fact as was set forth.

[The Count he/him]

Isn't the first ideal:

 

Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.

 

Actually a quote from The Way of Kings? Otherwise how would Dalinar know of it? He does not have an ex Envisager telling him what it means after all.

 

This would mean that that this one was stated to get the KR on the correct path and the 40 parables were guides toward the other 40 ideals.

 

 

Except, we don't know that that is what Gavilar meant by "the most important words..." and we don't know whether Nohadon developed the ideals or if he discovered them.  I also don't know that we know of any direct relationship between Nohadon and the KR.  It could well be that the KR (or whoever establish the KR) liked the Way of Kings and adopted it.

 

Except Dalinar explicitly says that 'the most important words a man can say' is a direct quote from The Way of Kings.

Edited November 18, 2013 by MadRand

[Natans he/him]

Shardlet, on 17 Nov 2013 - 7:55 PM, said:

I'll gladly grant you that it is a reasonable guess.  But, it is not a fact as was set forth.

 

I always thought that was common knowledge that Gavilar was trying discovery the 40 ideal in the "way of kings", now that I think about indeed that wasn't confirmed.

 

So let me defend this theory a little bit.

 

To me Gavilar was trying to revive the KR, his obsession with the Way of kings and with honor, the fact that many members of his family are showing radiant powers(so far Jasnah, Ekhohar, Dalinar) indicate that Gavilar could be the first one in his family to understand the need of revive the Radiant. Alethenkar was always the Kingdom that kept training the "mortal arts" to pass them in time of desolations, make sense that they have a strong connection with the radiants ideals, the war codes shows that even today the ideals of honor are present in they culture.

 

We know that in Roshar power comes by the ways you act, Gavilar changed to a more honorable person in the end, I don't think that this coincidence, but in true it was him putting in practice the ideals of the way of kings with the objective of attract sprens,  What I don’t know is how he discovered this. (the best I can guess is that maybe he had the same dreams that Dalinar)

 

About Nohadon, I think that he created the 10 KR. to answer the problem that himself proposed do Dalinar, "how make the men act with honor". 

 

When he united the world after his desolation "in a time for the sword" he must have left the book was a guideline for the futures generations, about how to act to attract the spren that are associated with surges power, but not only this, to me he did another thing.

 

He not only created the KR, but I think that he is the reason of why the sprens are 'bonded" with certain ideals, granting great powers when a person live by one of the ideal. My theory is based in that interlude where a spren was measured and because of that it stopped to change form. 

 

I don't know how or where, but Nohadon must have "measured" the sprens bonding which one with the ideals associated with a parable in his book. In this way he maked sure that a surgebind acting in a honorable way would gain great power, solving the problem of the sprens that didn't have "as much discernment as the honor spren" bonding the person with no honor. My best guess is that the "dawnchant" is related with this, like when you wrote the measurement the spren stopped to change in size.

 

We know that the sprens are cognitive beings, so I believe that they are affected by the perception that the persons have about them, what explain way the stopped to change when measured.

 

Just saying. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Natans

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't necessarily have any problem with any of these ideas.  I think there are still some extremely potent holes that need to be filled in for establishing that Nohadon formed the KR, the ideals, and restricted the traits of the spren-bond.  All this comes down to not yet having seen any indication that Nohadon was more than an ordinary man with an extraordinary philosophy.  We need to see some evidence that he actually had some substantial power (not political) before I can subscribe to these ideas.

 

 

Except Dalinar explicitly says that 'the most important words a man can say' is a direct quote from The Way of Kings.

 

It may very well be that all the ideals are contained/described/extolled within The Way of Kings.  However, the question is, whether the quote refers to the ideals, whether Nohadon created the ideals or discovered the ideals, and whether or not it was Nohadon that established the KR and empowered them with the power-up system using the ideals.

[marianmi]

Nohadon is ... interesting.

Clearly, he was a man of great honor. And he did extraordinary things.

Now, because of this, it looks impossible to me not to have attracted a spren.

 

Another interesting thing, that might be worth asking Brandon: who or what was Nahel? Where does the word comes from?

[Shardlet he/him]

Nohadon is ... interesting.

Clearly, he was a man of great honor. And he did extraordinary things.

Now, because of this, it looks impossible to me not to have attracted a spren.

 

Another interesting thing, that might be worth asking Brandon: who or what was Nahel? Where does the word comes from?

 

Almost certainly a RAFO at this point.  We will learn much more about the Nahel bond, I expect, well before the conclusion of book 5.  Taln and the Dawnchant are the two sources for info which seem most likely at the moment.

[junior]

Except, we don't know that that is what Gavilar meant by "the most important words..." and we don't know whether Nohadon developed the ideals or if he discovered them.  I also don't know that we know of any direct relationship between Nohadon and the KR.  It could well be that the KR (or whoever establish the KR) liked the Way of Kings and adopted it.

 

Random thought...

 

We know that Nohadon was having trouble figuring out how to deal with spren who were forming bonds with questionable individuals.

 

We know that spren are somewhat chaotic in nature, but can be forced into a more ordered existence when something about them is written down.  The example of this that we see is a flamespren that keeps changing size until its size is recorded.  Then it stops changing size until the record is erased.

 

What if The Way of Kings is Nohadon using item #2 to address item #1?  Namely, the mere existance of copies of The Way of Kings prevents spren from fully bonding with individuals who don't adopt the relevent lessons from the book?

 

Is that possible?  I don't know.  But it might explain why Kaladin's recitation of a phrase (i.e. the second oath) that he was already more or less living would have such a dramatic and immediate impact on the battlefield.

Edited November 20, 2013 by junior

[Shardlet he/him]

I could get behind that at least tentatively.  A niggling detail to me, though, is that it is not a mere recitation of the ideal, but attainment of that ideal that brings the power-up.  In each case so far, it appears that there is development of the ideal within the character which is tested at a crisis point.  The words come into the mind of the surgebinder spontaneously as the surgebinder makes the descision to follow the ideal (so far, at the sacrifice of the surgebinder's self-interest).  Thus the ideal becomes internalized by the surgebinder and they receive the power-up associated with that ideal.  I'm not sure if the Geranid effect, so to speak, could account for this.

[junior]

I could get behind that at least tentatively.  A niggling detail to me, though, is that it is not a mere recitation of the ideal, but attainment of that ideal that brings the power-up.  In each case so far, it appears that there is development of the ideal within the character which is tested at a crisis point.  The words come into the mind of the surgebinder spontaneously as the surgebinder makes the descision to follow the ideal (so far, at the sacrifice of the surgebinder's self-interest).  Thus the ideal becomes internalized by the surgebinder and they receive the power-up associated with that ideal.  I'm not sure if the Geranid effect, so to speak, could account for this.

 

Good point.

 

Though it's possible that the words are provided by the spren at the critical point via the bond - with the caveat that the spren can only provide the words if the human is living up to the ideal.

[Shardlet he/him]

In the case of Kaladin, though, the words do not appear to come from Syl.

[Scott]

Very interesting theory.  

 

@Shardlet

 

Syl may not directly supply the words, but she's aware of them.  Before Kaladin joins the tower battle she prompts him several times:

 

 

"Kaladin," a voice whispered.  He blinked.  Syl was hovering in front of him.  "Do you know the Words?"

...

Syl shot out in front of him, looking back , worried.  "The Words, Kaladin!"

...

The Words, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind.  In that moment, Kaladin was amazed to realize that he knew them, though they'd never been told to him.

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," he whispered.

The Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant.

 

"Words" is capitalized, Syl pushes Kaladin hard to say them, and starts to get worried when he hasn't yet.  Nohadon could have used the Way of Kings to embody the ideals, while intending for it to also bind the spren.  

 

When Geranid measures the firespren, she doesn't write "Firespren (size): XX measureunits".  She just writes down a number.  Could it be her intent to measure the spren that binds it to it's current size, and the intent to erase the measurement that releases it?  If so, Nohadon could have bound the spren to the Radiant Ideals without anyone else knowing.  The Way of Kings would be an ideal method.

[Shardlet he/him]

At the risk of being called a fussy naysaying wet blanket, Syl has likely bonded with a KR previously and at this point in the story has regained quite a bit of her memory and pretty much all of her personailty.  It is probable that she is speaking from experience rather than nature.  Though it is clear from your example that she is aware that Kaladin is on the threshhold of attaining the ideal. 

[EmagSamurai]

Interesting indeed! That interlude seemed to make little sense in the context of the book until now. I like it!

[Scott]

At the risk of being called a fussy naysaying wet blanket...

 

I'd call you a wet blanket if you didn't correct things I've gotten wrong so often 

 

You're of course correct, Syl mentions helping men kill in the past, and that she felt it was right.  Most likely a previous KR bond.  Although that brings up another question for me.  If she was at the same cognitive state in her previous bonds as in this one, wouldn't she remember the words being spoken?  Wouldn't she be able to tell Kaladin?  It's possible that she DOES know the words, but is prevented from simply saying "here's what you need to say".  Instead she has to help Kaladin reach them on his own.

[hoser he/him]

 If she was at the same cognitive state in her previous bonds as in this one, wouldn't she remember the words being spoken?  Wouldn't she be able to tell Kaladin?

Not necessarily.  From here #26:

Mike

Has Kaladin's windspren Syl reached the epitome of her consciousness or will we see a smarter spren in future books?

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Syl has recovered everything of her personality. There are things she doesn't remember, and things she can still learn to do, but she has recovered her personality in full.

 

 

 It's possible that she DOES know the words, but is prevented from simply saying "here's what you need to say".  Instead she has to help Kaladin reach them on his own.

 

This seems quite possible.

Edited November 20, 2013 by hoser

[junior]

It's possible that she DOES know the words, but is prevented from simply saying "here's what you need to say".  Instead she has to help Kaladin reach them on his own.

 

This seems very possible.  At the very least, she's clearly aware that some words need to be said.  And it's not a big jump to assume that she actually knows the words in question.

[Aether he/him]

Random thought...

 

We know that Nohadon was having trouble figuring out how to deal with spren who were forming bonds with questionable individuals.

 

We know that spren are somewhat chaotic in nature, but can be forced into a more ordered existence when something about them is written down.  The example of this that we see is a flamespren that keeps changing size until its size is recorded.  Then it stops changing size until the record is erased.

 

What if The Way of Kings is Nohadon using item #2 to address item #1?  Namely, the mere existance of copies of The Way of Kings prevents spren from fully bonding with individuals who don't adopt the relevent lessons from the book?

 

Is that possible?  I don't know.  But it might explain why Kaladin's recitation of a phrase (i.e. the second oath) that he was already more or less living would have such a dramatic and immediate impact on the battlefield.

This. Is. Gold.

 

Not necessarily correct, though, but a VERY astute observation, and quite likely true (at least in my book). UPVOTES FOR junior PLZ!

 

I would also like to indicate more clearly what other people already have mentioned. Geranid and Ashir's experiment is very clear that random numbers  - even if it might approximately relate to a specific Spren - have no effect. It has to be the measured value of a specific Spren. Thus, by analogy, just reciting quotes from the way of Kings would in no way bind or affect any Nahel Bond related Spren. Unless the correct Words are spoken in the right type of situation by an ideal candidate matching the corresponding Ideals of his Order.

 

I love how this would also give Nohadon means of binding or at least forming the bonding Spren to certain ideals without resorting to Dawnshards or contracts with Honour (or even rediscovering lost ideals). By writing the book, and intending each of the parables to refer to specific types of "Nahel Spren", he could alter how the Nahel bond worked. I am tempted to embrace this theory right her, right now (*frantically looking for the I told you so thread*).

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether