Long Game 21: To Reforge a God

[Mark IV he/him]

@Araris,

I can't say much without revealing stuff, but that was never what I meant. I simply meant to say his experiment would be fruitless.

[Seonid he/him]

Question for Seonid:

Could Odium/Autonomy/Survival also be a member of the 17th Shard?

No. Each of these are separate alignments

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

DC hasn't removed it either, though I suppose it might be because he's aware of the theory I mentioned testing.

 

EDIT: Forgot to say this before but happy birthday Mrs. IV!

Yes, I am very interested in this theory and would like to test it as well

Edited May 15, 2016 by DeathClutch19

[Seonid he/him]

Is that allowed?

Wilson/Seonid, how much stuff from the dead doc are people allowed to say to others if the game is still going on?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Amanuensis did this before in MR12, when he caught Wonko for being less aggressive than in LG18, so I feel like he might be right, but using stuff like this gives people who are spectating/dead an advantage over people who aren't.

I've been thinking about this - the problem is that I don't know the whole situation. I'm not in the QF15 dead doc, so I don't know what's been said there.

With that caveat, I will give since general guidelines:

If you are playing this game, DO NOT reveal information about it in out of game docs, PMs, or in-person conversations.

If you learn information such as roles or alignments in this game from an out of game source, DO NOT use it. This is called cheating, and people who do it should feel bad.

If you set up a way of privately communicating about this game in an out of game doc or pm, you should not use it. This is also cheating.

If you have insight from previous playstyles, earlier games, dead docs where people have discussed theory, what they would do if they had a certain role, and so on, this is fair game. It's part of our community meta, and, as Joe said, it's not fair to our players to expect then to try and ignore this row of information

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I was referring to your response to Conquestor, who had voted for you. He wasn't experimenting at all, so far as I can see.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Amanuensis there.

 

 

As promised, Mark IV.

 

Jeez, this thread is long. Anyway, I'll put a vote on Amanuensis for now because of what he said about voting for Mark. Not only do I dislike using anything outside of the current game as reasoning for voting, but also I'm on the same planet as Mar and he said he couldn't find anything even having looked through that doc. So, care to be a bit more specific, Aman?

 

Empasis mine.

 

Well, lengthening the thread was my intention after all  . I would love to share but sadly it's going to have to wait until QF15 finishes. But I want you to look at the situation this way; my intention was to piggy back on someone else's vote to create some actual lynch pressure with a reason other than the usual "I see you viewing the thread but not posting" type thing. I just happened to go with the first thing that came to mind (a subject that was recently discussed in a dead doc) with hopes that it would get people to come out of their shells and take a stance (which as you can see has been rather effective). I had no actual intention of killing Mark over it. It has nothing to do with him as a player specifically, he was just an unlucky bystander. I don't see the harm in telling ya'll that Devotion listened to my request and created a PM with Mark and I. I explained to him what the whole business was about and he laughed about it in retrospect.

 

Those bolded parts seem suspicious to me, as well as the fact that you want a PM with Mark to get his information. I think Aman is now my top suspect. Getting mostly evil vibes from you so far. The Only Joe(don't think I've forgotten about your slight against the Lopen though.  )

 

I do tend to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist, and it tends to keep me on my toes more often than not. I think those are two completely valid points because I am known for advocating that new players be allowed to live and that players who die early in recent games be spared for a few cycles, and because DC's response to not retracting his vote wasn't very informative which I always find odd when it could actually mean life or death for a player, as if he has no concern for whether or not he kills a potential teammate. As for the bit about "getting information from Mark" he made a claim that guarantees he is on the same side as me so of course I'm going to want to communicate with him. If I was Odium I would just attack him and be done with it, and if I was a 17th Sharder I would already know whether or not he is a Shardholder, as well as the fact that I would want to be a LOT more discreet with gathering information than I have been thus far. Ultimately what it comes down to is that I find people who vote against me as suspicious because as you've stated before I am notoriously hard to kill (why would the eliminators risk attacking me only to find out I'm protected when they can just get me lynched?), as well as anyone who follows my lead way too easily (hence why I'm currently suspicious of Con and DC, but am giving the former player leeway because him being new and the latter for dying first in QF15).

 

(2) Mark IV: DeathClutch19,  Araris Valerian,

(2) Amanuensis: Phattemer, The Mighty Lopen

(1) leiftinspace: AliasSheep,

(1) AliasSheep: leiftinspace,

(1) The Young Bard: The Only Joe,

(1) Nyali: The Young Bard,

 

I have removed my vote from Mark even though it puts me at risk of being killed. If it comes down to it I would rather sacrifice myself then let him die. That being said, I earnestly hope that you end up placing your votes elsewhere.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Elbereth she/her]

I do tend to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist, and it tends to keep me on my toes more often than not. I think those are two completely valid points because I am known for advocating that new players be allowed to live and that players who die early in recent games be spared for a few cycles, and because DC's response to not retracting his vote wasn't very informative which I always find odd when it could actually mean life or death for a player, as if he has no concern for whether or not he kills a potential teammate. As for the bit about "getting information from Mark" he made a claim that guarantees he is on the same side as me so of course I'm going to want to communicate with him. If I was Odium I would just attack him and be done with it, and if I was a 17th Sharder I would already know whether or not he is a Shardholder, as well as the fact that I would want to be a LOT more discreet with gathering information than I have been thus far. Ultimately what it comes down to is that I find people who vote against me as suspicious because as you've stated before I am notoriously hard to kill (why would the eliminators risk attacking me only to find out I'm protected when they can just get me lynched?), as well as anyone who follows my lead way too easily (hence why I'm currently suspicious of Con and DC, but am giving the former player leeway because him being new and the latter for dying first in QF15).

Aman. This entire paragraph is raising red flags for me. I'll try to explain why, although I may not do a very good job. It's mostly instinct, unfortunately.

You're talking a lot about how you've acted in previous games, even though you're also planning on changing your playstyle, which is somewhat contradictory. And I think as a villager you'd be less likely to reference previous games and how you acted in them.

Also, just because you're known for advocating that new players be let live (and I'd argue that you aren't really, not more than anyone else who thinks about that kind of thing at all), I seriously doubt the situation you outlined would happen. That's not how eliminator docs work, in my experience (from reading them, obviously, since the only time I was an eliminator was MR11, and I wasn't exactly participating in the evil discussion...). They're much more haphazard.

And the "if I were a 17th Sharder/if I were Odium I would just do x" point isn't valid. Of course you wouldn't. You'd do exactly the same thing as you'd do if you were a villager. That's the whole idea of being a successful eliminator.

Biggest flag is the reference to how you "usually" play, basically. That seems much more like an eliminator mindset.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Elbereth

[AliasSheep]

By the way, I'm removing my vote on Leift, it kinda stopped being a poke a while ago.  Will put more thoughts up soon, just going over the thread.

[Arrae]

Nila turned away from Parth and looked out the window. It was a clear glass pane, and mist curled behind it, darkened by a few motes of ash swirling in the night.

 

It was depressingly grey. No wonder Scadrialans were so beaten down, if this was what their night sky looked like. Even Idris had more color than this.

 

Nila turned back to the inside of the ballroom and chewed contemplatively on a fruit. At least the dresses were colorful. A few couples danced a waltz in the center of the room, but most of them were just talking to one another, probably for some political nonsense. What was the point of attending a ball if you didn't dance? Didn't these nobles get bored of standing around gossiping?

 

Nila stood up. "Parth, want to dance?"

 

EDIT:

 

 

If I was Odium I would just attack him and be done with it, and if I was a 17th Sharder I would already know whether or not he is a Shardholder, as well as the fact that I would want to be a LOT more discreet with gathering information than I have been thus far. 

 

...if you were an intelligent Odium, that's exactly why you wouldn't "just attack him and be done with it". Same for being an intelligent 17th Sharder. Amanuensis.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Arraenae

[Amanuensis he/him]

Aman. This entire paragraph is raising red flags for me. I'll try to explain why, although I may not do a very good job. It's mostly instinct, unfortunately.

You're talking a lot about how you've acted in previous games, even though you're also planning on changing your playstyle, which is somewhat contradictory. And I think as a villager you'd be less likely to reference previous games and how you acted in them.

Also, just because you're known for advocating that new players be let live (and I'd argue that you aren't really, not more than anyone else who thinks about that kind of thing at all), I seriously doubt the situation you outlined would happen. That's not how eliminator docs work, in my experience (from reading them, obviously, since the only time I was an eliminator was MR11, and I wasn't exactly participating in the evil discussion...). They're much more haphazard.

And the "if I were a 17th Sharder/if I were Odium I would just do x" point isn't valid. Of course you wouldn't. You'd do exactly the same thing as you'd do if you were a villager. That's the whole idea of being a successful eliminator.

Biggest flag is the reference to how you "usually" play, basically. That seems much more like an eliminator mindset.

 

To be fair, I was challenged for doing something I always do, so I'm not entirely sure how else I am supposed to respond. If you look at all of my previous games (I know I'm doing it again but it's to prove a point) you'll see I always reference previous games whenever it becomes relevant to the situation. As for this supposed contradiction, I don't recall ever saying that I was changing my play style entirely, just that I'm not going to be hesitant about lynching people and even ensure it happens if I have to in order to keep the game from stagnating.

 

After I reread my post I realized I didn't really word it clearly. I was referring to when Lopen asked me about my opinion on Trelagist (where I said I would give him leeway) and then not too long after Young Bard (who is new as well) comes in with a vote on me. To me the timing came off as suspicious, and it made me wonder if he is a member of the 17th Shard and specifically sent to start a lynch on me knowing that I couldn't really retaliate. Not entirely sure what you're referring to about "That's not how eliminator docs work," can you please explain that bit a little more?

 

I don't necessarily agree with that statement, plus I feel like this point contradicts your other. If I'd do the same thing when I'm an eliminator as I would when I'm a villager then how did I do something earlier that a villager is less likely to do (which just isn't true in my case)? When people start bringing up things I've done that are actually evil then maybe I'll be able to defend myself in a more meaningful way.

 

Phattemer voted for me because of the circumstances of my vote on Mark (which he doesn't even know). For those who know what those circumstances are they should agree that they cannot be inherently interpreted as evil because it was something that I considered (and people saw me consider) before we received our roles. That and I have claimed since the beginning that I'd rather not follow through with it but barring any better leads figured it was worth a try.

 

Lopen is voting for me because I said I am suspicious of two players due to their reactions to the situation. I explained why I genuinely find what they did odd, and don't really understand how that's lynchworthy. He also mentions that he thinks it's suspicious that I wanted a PM with Mark after he said something and I've explained that as well.

 

As for you, I've already responded to what I can. I can't really defend myself from gut feelings, only mention how they are more often wrong than not. That being said, if the majority decision is that I get lynched I am fine with that because it should provide all with a lot to analyze, as I'm becoming increasingly certain that at least one of the players who voted for me today is a member of the 17th Shard.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Amanuensis

[phattemer]

is a member of the 17th Shard

... well, I am.

[Arrae]

is a member of the 17th Shard

... well, I am.

 

Well, isn't everybody? 

[A Joe in the Bush]

*Smacks Phattamer and arraenae*

 

EDIT: Actually, the last time Phat was an eliminator (Terris MR) he did pretend to reveal he was an eliminator. so he might be one.

Edited May 15, 2016 by The Only Joe

[Arrae]

Somebody is in denial...

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

I'll place a vote on Arraenae

I'm not sure that I understand your reasoning on voting for Aman. 

In my opinion, thus far he is playing more like a villager, there is no harm in wanting information and the whole thing with mark has been explained. I think he is pushing too hard for information to be evil. As an evil player would not want to bring attention to themselves like he has. 

[Arrae]

Defending yourself by saying "an eliminator would do A, not B, and I've done B, so I can't be an eliminator" isn't a very strong defense. An eliminator might do B precisely because eliminators are expected to do A. Aman saying that if he was Odium he'd just attack Mark and be done with it isn't a valid defense, because if Aman was Odium, he might vote on Mark because it's not something people would expect Odium to do. The same thing goes for being part of the 17th Shard.

 

The only time this is a valid defense is when B is so detrimental to the eliminators that the cons of doing B outweighs the pros they could get from it. Voting on Mark instead of killing him D1 isn't that detrimental to Odium, especially since Odium could kill attack someone else D1 and kill Mark later.

[AliasSheep]

I'll place a vote on Arraenae

I'm not sure that I understand your reasoning on voting for Aman. 

In my opinion, thus far he is playing more like a villager, there is no harm in wanting information and the whole thing with mark has been explained. I think he is pushing too hard for information to be evil. As an evil player would not want to bring attention to themselves like he has. 

 

I find it suspicious that you would change your vote from Mark just after Aman has said that he finds it suspicious that you voted for Mark anyway.  I also think it was suspicious that you kept your vote on Mark to test Aman's theory. If I understood what Aman wanted to test properly, then you wouldn't need to keep your vote on.  I also find it strange that you kept your vote on Mark in the first place, despite saying you had no information to.  This would also contradict your later statement that you kept your vote on in order to test Aman's theory, which he says is based on something in QF15 dead doc, which you are in, and had been considering before the game.

 

So as a combination of you suspiciously changing your vote, and your contradicting reasoning for not retracting it earlier, I'm going to vote on you, DC.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I would say that getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

[Conquestor he/him]

Nila stood up. "Parth, want to dance?"

 

Parth was so stunned for a moment he couldn't speak. He looked at the other people dancing. He really needed allies and was willing to do a lot to get some. "Yes, I will dance with you." He offered his hand as the song ended.

[AliasSheep]

I would say that getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

At no point have you said you set out to be lynched.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I would say that getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

[Arrae]

I would say that getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

 

You have the most votes right now. You were voted because of your behavior. The person with the most votes is lynched. Getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

 

Irrelevant evidence. Saying that you can't be Odium because getting lynched D1 is bad for Odium is a fallacy.

[AliasSheep]

You have the most votes right now. You were voted because of your behavior. The person with the most votes is lynched. Getting lynched D1 is the most detrimental thing for Odium.

 

Irrelevant evidence. Saying that you can't be Odium because getting lynched D1 is bad for Odium is a fallacy.

Uhm, which fallacy?

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

I find it suspicious that you would change your vote from Mark just after Aman has said that he finds it suspicious that you voted for Mark anyway.  I also think it was suspicious that you kept your vote on Mark to test Aman's theory. If I understood what Aman wanted to test properly, then you wouldn't need to keep your vote on.  I also find it strange that you kept your vote on Mark in the first place, despite saying you had no information to.  This would also contradict your later statement that you kept your vote on in order to test Aman's theory, which he says is based on something in QF15 dead doc, which you are in, and had been considering before the game.

 

So as a combination of you suspiciously changing your vote, and your contradicting reasoning for not retracting it earlier, I'm going to vote on you, DC.

I don't think suspicious was the word he used. Actually quite the opposite, "DC's response to not retracting his vote wasn't very informative" 

 

I had no more information than any of you(Unless you are evil) at the time of my vote so testing a theory was better than nothing at all. 

 

I see no contradictions in my votes/posts. I only retracted off of Mark to vote for a player who I believed to be evil which I believe is a much better reason than wanting to test the theory on Mark. I believe Aman is too aggressive and out in the open to be evil and the people voting for him want him out of the way as he's the only one currently providing the village with information. 

 

Edit: 

Post information

Posts

KEY:

Blue - Posted in full

Red - Did not post

Half Blue/Half Red - Posted but gained no information

_______________________________________________________________

1. Par Degaton (Master Elodin)

2. Jonly (The Only Joe) - A Sliver of Preservation, and a Feruchemist

3. Hal Heatherlock (Parodium Haelbarde)

4. Seznith Seridanon (Kynedath)

5. The Nameless (Trelagist)

6. Gorl (cloudjumper)

7. Alkazar (Zephrer) - an exiled Sand Mastrell from Taldain

8. Hadrian Penrod (Araris Valerian) - a Scadrian nobleman

9. Miani (Mailliw), Maw's latest apprentice

10. Kelen Taldar (AliasSheep)

11. Tindomë (Elbereth)

12. Amanuensis (Amanuensis)

13. Nijza (Nyali), a world singer of small renown

14. Bernte Ghetti (Burnt Spaghetti)

15. Gon Freecs (DeathClutch19)

16. Brian (Paranoid King), a lowly soldier

17. Exisa (phattemer), the original Seventeeth Shard

18. (MarkIV)

19. Parth (Conquestor)

20. Jimmy (TheMightyLopen), a Lifeless hamster

Quote: I'm thinking I'm gonna force a lynch each Day Turn. So if anyone has 1 vote at the end of the Day and we haven't decided who to lynch, I'm going to lynch them, no matter what.

21. Nila Hamming (Arrenae), an enthusiastic Hemalurgist

22. Left of Space (leiftinspace)

23. Valan Quivar (Quiver), a Rosharan dudebro highprince

24. Second of the Sky (Alvron), on his last chance with the Collective.

25. Vathir (The Young Bard), a Nalthian Rambleman

Quote: I'm trying to suss out who's on what side, but no luck so far.

Edited May 15, 2016 by DeathClutch19

[Arrae]

Uhm, which fallacy?

Irrelevant Reason/Non Sequitur.