What's in it for the Spren?

[Krandacth]

So, I've always noticed a similarity between Kal's impressions of Syl an Tien. This made me wonder if Syl was somehow a pseudo-reincarnation of Tien.  But she has really old memories, so this seemed unlikely.

Then I saw this WoB: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#26
This says most of what spren get is physical form and memory in the PR. So, what else do they get?

I don't know as much of the spiritual realm as I'd like, but what I've gleaned is that it is a realm of connections. Spren seem to be cognitive manifestations of abstract concepts that are drawn to perceived instances of those concepts in the PR. Being abstract things, do they therefore lack connections (and so presence) in the SR?

Kaladin has an unusually strong desire to protect, which drew Syl. That desire to protect initially was focused on Tien, with whom he had a very strong Connection. When he lost Tien, that connection remained, but the associated desire to protect became more generalised. Syl represents that desire to protect.

So, in bonding with Kal and becoming the cognitive manifestation of his desire to protect, does she also tap into his spiritual connection to Tien, and so inherit some part of their emotional relationship? If so, does this count as pseudo-reincarnation?

 

 

Whilst this started with the Syl-Kal-Tien relationship only, I have also noticed it applies to Dalinar-Stormfather-Gavilar.

 

The Stormfather was drawn to Dalinar as a result of his desire to unify the kingdom, and hold rigidly to the codes (both presumed aspects of Bondsmiths). These are both desires tied strongly to the memory of his brother. Also, Dalinar always felt his brother was an unstoppable force that shaped those around him into what he needed them to be, making them better as a byproduct; this is clearly also true of highstorms (though whether this is a particular impression Dalinar holds regarding highstorms is unclear).

The evidence of spiritual connection seems less obvious here, until Dalinar's final vision in WoR, just prior to bonding the Stormfather.  In that vision, which the Stormfather did not consciously send, Dalinar felt as if Gavilar were in the next room (paraphrased). That suggests a spiritual connection to Gavilar manifested via the Stormfather.

 

What this means for Pattern, Ivory, Glys... I think we need to know more.

What do you guys think?

[Djarskublar he/him]

... Whoa. Mind blown. While one of your points about spren doesn't really hold up well, it doesn't really affect the theory. Spren do have a solid presence in the SR seeing as they are Splinters, and therefor made of pure Investiture.

On the other hand, when the spren gets attached to you via the Nahel bond, that may rewrite their Connections somewhat such that they resemble the focus person/thing of the Radiant. In your example, Syl would get rewritten as Tien somewhat.

I really like this line of thought.

Edit: what I said isn't strictly true either. Spren do live in the CR, but they still have a solid aspect in the SR.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Djarskublar

[+hwiles]

@Krandacth I think the clarity behind your reasoning is definitely to be commended.  It's been previously established that, in order for a person to form a Nahel bond, they must have some sort of fracture/hole/crack in their spirit web that can be filled by a spren.  The "size" or "nature" of that fracture/hole/crack isn't particularly important.  What's important is that, in order to become a Radiant, one must have experienced some measure of trauma, adversity, or personal struggle which ultimately has left them unable to achieve the level of self-actualization that they could have otherwise achieved.  This is all, by nature, extremely subjective, abstract, and resistant to hard logic...

What makes your theory so good is that it explains existing observations while also proposing predictions and remaining elegantly simple.  If I'm reading your words correctly, it sounds like you're (in part because your theory is obviously broader than this single point) proposing that the nature (size/shape) of the hole in a Radiant's spirit web dictates what  type of spren they can bond, and ultimately governs how that spren's presence and personality evolve, as well as what their effect will be on their Radiant.  IE: Syl, in filling the gap in Kaladin's spirit web left by the death of his brother necessarily adopts aspects of both Kaladin and Tien into her personality while simultaneously imbuing Kaladin with a compulsive need to protect others.  This strikes me as highly intuitive and logical.  If I'm totally off-base in my interpretation please correct me, I don't want to put words in your mouth (keyboard?).  I like your theory regardless.

Edited September 8, 2016 by hwiles

[Krandacth]

@Djarskublar I hadn't known the exact interaction of Splinters, investiture and the SR. But yes, this fits with the WoB implying that whatever isn't in the PR is the lesser gain.

@hwiles While I hadn't formed the theory in the accepted terms, not being entirely sure of them, yes, this is basically what I meant. The precise inferrences you've drawn weren't exactly what I had observed, but only in that they are more specific, not in any way contradictory.

One thing I'm not sure I'm clear on is the nature of the holes in one's spirit web. The reason I am unsure is that, from accepted descriptions I have read on here (but not sourced myself), when people die they persist in the SR by their ongoing Connections to other people, places, etc. If this is the case, then Kaladin's Connection to Tien still exists. Does this mean that any hole in Kal's web is related to the incident of his death, rather than than to Tien himself?

Or, alternate interpretation: As a person is, spiritually, the sum of their connections, dead people continue to exist within the SR as a spiritual shadow, being the now-absent subject and object of Connections persisted by others.

However, the absence of a "node", if you will, forms a hole (that node need not be a person). The part of that hole formed by Connections to a single person (henceforth "the bereaved") forms the hole in the bereaved's personal spirit web. Therefore something filling that hole for the bereaved necessarily takes on the "spiritual shape" of the lost "node"; if a dead person, the Spren (in this case) is essentially the reincarnation that dead person with respect to the bereaved.

Or is this trying too hard to get a part of Tien and Gavilar back?

 

Also, side note: does all this about spirit webs mean that anyone, from any planet and with any sDNA, could become a surgebinder on Roshar if they have suffered the right kind of trauma? As in, the Nahel Bond has nothing to do with the hosts original sDNA? Or does there also have to be a compatible sDNA marker, if you will, to facilitate the Bond?

 

Edit: @cognizantastic I will, if I can boil it down to a pithy sentence

Edit 2: Ok, not a pithy sentence, but 4 fairly solid questions.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Krandacth
responding to post made while writing this one

[Krandacth]

Response to ... the response... in the Questions for Brandon thread.

1 hour ago, Yata said:

as far as I know:

No, the human needs just to be "broken" (it's a common condition needed in many Cosmere's magics). If it's broken enough and He/she has the right attitude, He may attract the the right Spren.

Dumb example: If Kaladin was another kind of man, He would be able to attract another kind of spren once Broken.

 

This fits within what I asked. The hole is the evidence of their breaking, right? See the linked discussion for others using this terminology (I don't know its original source, I'm afraid). And the way they break, and the influence of that break on them, both depends on and influences what kind of person they are.

To use your example: If Kaladin was another kind of man and experienced a similar traumatic event, he would likely attract a different kind of Spren.  I posit that he would likewise attract a different Spren if he started as Kaladin pre leaving Hearthstone, but suffered a different traumatic event, such as dismissal in disgrace from the school in Kharbranth.

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Probably yes, maybe our wording may be wrong. But the Surgebinder becomes more and more a more compatible parner for the Spren's Ideal and a better anchor to pull the Spren in the Physical.

The next two are probably false (but I am unsure about what you want to ask there)

The third follows directly from the notions that:

• the Spren must fit the hole in a person's spirit web that is the result of them being broken
• the better the fit the better the anchor for the Spren in the physical world
• each person's character and situation will be different in detail, if similar to others in broad terms, so Spren must also be somewhat flexible in order to be compatible.

It also reflects the fact that the Bond fundamentally alters both participants, being symbiotic, rather than just the person.

The last question is the one that is most pie-in-the-sky, I agree, but if the previous question proves true then it is a definite possibility.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

3 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Also, side note: does all this about spirit webs mean that anyone, from any planet and with any sDNA, could become a surgebinder on Roshar if they have suffered the right kind of trauma? As in, the Nahel Bond has nothing to do with the hosts original sDNA? Or does there also have to be a compatible sDNA marker, if you will, to facilitate the Bond?

Well, if that person worldhopped to Roshar when they were really young, I can see that happening. Or just dabble in hemalurgy.

1 minute ago, Krandacth said:

To use your example: If Kaladin was another kind of man and experienced a similar traumatic event, he would likely attract a different kind of Spren.  I posit that he would likewise attract a different Spren if he started as Kaladin pre leaving Hearthstone, but suffered a different traumatic event, such as dismissal in disgrace from the school in Kharbranth.

It also depends on how he reacts to these traumatising experiences, for example, Pattern comments on the lies Shallan creates to create a wall between what happened and herself, to stop herself from going back to being "the wretch" 

Krandacth, what you have done here has the possibility to be true, and it's storming amazing, keep it up!

[Yata he/him]

I just read your theory and I find it quite beautiful, I don't think it's how the process works (I have quite the opposite idea XD).

Anyway I would explain some fact in a more clearly way (just to avoid further problems):

- When someone dies He/she remains for some time in the Cognitive Realm not the Spiritual one. Then his/her Mind is pulled in the Beyond and the Soul's Investiture is recycled in whaterver source it comes from. For an average Human I don't think it last a single minute in the Cognitive Realm before the Beyond.

- A crack in the Soul isn't something necessary related to someone's death. For example on Scadrial they used to beat almost to death Child to develop this Soul's Crak. In theory one of this guy (someone who didn't become an Allomancer) may travel to Sel and find himself a proto-radiant (with the right attitude).

This is just to say that the Nature of the Trama who creates a Soul's crack don't really leave a specific mark in the Soul.

- With your specific example. You hits some "special case". The Stormfather is actually both a Spren and "someone". When Honor died, Tanavast's Shadow is some way manage to merge with the Stormfather.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Yata

[Krandacth]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

When someone dies He/she remains for some time in the Cognitive Realm not the Spiritual one. Then his/her Mind is pulled in the Beyond and the Soul's Investiture is recycled in whaterver source it comes from. For an average Human I don't think it last a single minute in the Cognitive Realm before the Beyond.

Do you have WoB that they don't also remain in the SR, and potentially longer than in the CR? Or just that MB: SH only portrays characters persisting in the CR?  On that note, I'm sure I read a WoB somewhere (though after much searching I can't find it) that said that Vins' and Elend's experience of death was to float along the connections of the spiritual realm, remaining close to the places and people they loved.  Or that might have been a Sharder theory...  Anyway:

 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

A crack in the Soul isn't something necessary related to someone's death. For example on Scadrial they used to beat almost to death Child to develop this Soul's Crak. In theory one of this guy (someone who didn't become an Allomancer) may travel to Sel and find himself a proto-radiant (with the right attitude).

I know it isn't.  In my theory, when I move away from the canon examples, I refer to a lost "node", which *could* be a person, but doesn't need to be.  In my counter example to your original post, I suggest that Kal could also be "snapped", if you will by being dismissed from the school at Kharbranth, if he had gotten that far.

In the case of the FE, beating a child to death would cause them to lose their sense of being loved, perhaps, or their innocence.  It should also be noted that we don't know how mistings/mistborn are allocated their abilities.  That could also be based on their combined history, traumatic event and reaction to it, with the allomantic power whose sDNA best fits the hole torn by the trauma filling the gap: if it was based solely on sDNA then specific allomantic abilities would be hereditary, an there has been no indication of that, only general allomantic potential.  This also fits with some of the most traumatised people (Vin and Kel) getting the most potent abilities.  However, there is obviously more at play on Scadrial than we are aware of with regards to the part played by sDNA.

Also, Radiants are on Roshar, not Sel.

1 hour ago, Yata said:

This is just to say that the Nature of the Trama who creates a Soul's crack don't really leave a specific mark in the Soul.

This seems unlikely, seeing as a person's spiritweb is unique within the spirit realm, and is a manifestation of that persons spiritual/emotional state.  As such, any damage to that spiritweb will be representative of the effect the trauma had on that person, as evidenced by the resultant personality changes in that person.  Suggesting that the spiritual damage from trauma is the same regardless of person or trauma is like saying the result of any form of physical harm (for example, an amputated foot) is a hole straight through the torso between the second and third ribs two inches left of the sternum (and no harm to the foot).

Whether or not the nature of the damage has an impact on the potential Bond/other magic is a different point, and the point of my theory.

2 hours ago, Yata said:

With your specific example. You hits some "special case". The Stormfather is actually both a Spren and "someone". When Honor died, Tanavast's Shadow is some way manage to merge with the Stormfather.

That was one of my two examples, and actually the lesser one.  It was Tanavast's cognitive shadow that merged with the Stormfather, which isn't stated to have anything to do with the spiritual manifestation of either.  As in my original theory, the cognitive manifestation of the Spren is acknowledged to be pre-existing, regardless of previous modifications to this manifestation; it is the spiritweb that I am positing might change.

[Krandacth]

As a separate point to that discussion, does this notion of a Spren "fitting" the specific result of trauma in a person's spiritweb have implications for reviving a Shardblade, and why it is so-difficult-but-maybe-possible?  If a Spren were locked in its form (physically *and* spiritually) by the breaking of oaths, would it be revived if artificially grafted to a person who had a nearly identical spiritual reaction to some trauma, who then essentially reached the third ideal without the guidance of a bonded spren?

Edited September 8, 2016 by Krandacth

[Djarskublar he/him]

42 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

As a separate point to that discussion, does this notion of a Spren "fitting" the specific result of trauma in a person's spiritweb have implications for reviving a Shardblade, and why it is so-difficult-but-maybe-possible?  If a Spren were locked in its form (physically *and* spiritually) by the breaking of oaths, would it be revived if artificially grafted to a person who had a nearly identical spiritual reaction to some trauma, who then essentially reached the third ideal without the guidance of a bonded spren?

Please don't double post, just edit it in. (Future reference, so Chaos doesn't get mad.) I really like this idea too. It fits with what we know, and your theory.

Relevant to this discussion is the WoB I gained at DT signing a mere couple days ago.

 

Djarskublar: So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon: Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you. (I think he was saying that the Hemalurgy itself hurts you more than being a savant, but I'm not sure how to interpret this)

Djarskublar: So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon: So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar: So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon: Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar: Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon: It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar: So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon: It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar: Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon: Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar: So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon: I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar: Okay cool.

Brandon: Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar: Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon: Miles was doing some funky stuff.

 

This suggests to me, in context of your theory, that any damage qualifies you to become a Radiant, but only certain spren will be attracted to certain kinds of damage. Different kinds of damage involve different Intent. I bet that a Hemalurgic spike will let someone become a great Dustbringer. But as he said, Syl won't touch you. And apparently spikes are bad for you if you live on Roshar because Odium. In the end, specific types of trauma attract different Investitures. That fits with your theory.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Krandacth said:

Do you have WoB that they don't also remain in the SR, and potentially longer than in the CR? Or just that MB: SH only portrays characters persisting in the CR?  On that note, I'm sure I read a WoB somewhere (though after much searching I can't find it) that said that Vins' and Elend's experience of death was to float along the connections of the spiritual realm, remaining close to the places and people they loved.  Or that might have been a Sharder theory...  Anyway:

I think we have only Harmony's words in BoM and maybe Leras' ones

Edited September 8, 2016 by Yata

[Krandacth]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I think we have only Harmony's words in BoM and maybe Leras' ones

Ah ha, I haven't read BoM yet, waiting for the paperbacks to go with the rest of my Cosmere collection. As such, I can't comment. Maybe someone else could second this interpretation?

 

3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

[WoB]

This suggests to me, in context of your theory, that any damage qualifies you to become a Radiant, but only certain spren will be attracted to certain kinds of damage. Different kinds of damage involve different Intent. I bet that a Hemalurgic spike will let someone become a great Dustbringer. But as he said, Syl won't touch you. And apparently spikes are bad for you if you live on Roshar because Odium. In the end, specific types of trauma attract different Investitures. That fits with your theory.

It does indeed fit, though what traits the spren would adopt when filling a mechanically derived hole (rather than naturally/emotionally derived) is anyone's guess. What is the general Intent of a Dustbringer's spren, do we know?

[Jaconis]

Dustbringers are brave and obedient, based on the table of divine attributes. That's all we have as far as I know, and may or may not be something to go by. 

So I'm not sure that hemalurgic spikes would necessarily allow you to become a Radiant, as much as it would allow access to surgebinding. Brandon's answers there lead me to believe that no spren from Honor or Cultivation would touch spike made spirit holes, but that Odium's spren would be happy to. This would make them...anti-Radiants?. Maybe Voidbringer is the right term there, but this process seems different from what Eshonai and the Parshendi did. 

As I type this, the situation that comes to mind that seems like better evidence than a dustbringer is that of Shallan's father. When his wife tries to kill his daughter, and his daughter defends herself and is forced to kill her own mother (and who knows what else was going on between his wife and the man...), that would certainly qualify as a traumatic, spirit web breaking event. And, more importantly, a very possible and likely emotion to feel there would be anger. He would be furious at his wife, who did all these horrible things, and forced this situation upon them all. This would have opened to door for an anger spren to bond, and create a proto-anti-Radiant. This also helps explain Wit's line to Shallan when he tells her that not everything she's fighting is natural. 

[Krandacth]

1 minute ago, Jaconis said:

So I'm not sure that hemalurgic spikes would necessarily allow you to become a Radiant, as much as it would allow access to surgebinding. Brandon's answers there lead me to believe that no spren from Honor or Cultivation would touch spike made spirit holes, but that Odium's spren would be happy to. This would make them...anti-Radiants?. Maybe Voidbringer is the right term there, but this process seems different from what Eshonai and the Parshendi did.

Perhaps this is Voidbinding?

3 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

And, more importantly, a very possible and likely emotion to feel there would be anger. He would be furious at his wife, who did all these horrible things, and forced this situation upon them all. This would have opened to door for an anger spren to bond, and create a proto-anti-Radiant. This also helps explain Wit's line to Shallan when he tells her that not everything she's fighting is natural. 

If it were Voidbinding, this makes the above unlikely due to the fact the we have WoB that we haven't seen Voidbinding.  Although, knowing Brandon, that doesn't mean we haven't seen a Voidbinder.  And that would very much explain Shallan's father's surviving the super-potent Blackbane...

[Jaconis]

3 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

Perhaps this is Voidbinding?

If it were Voidbinding, this makes the above unlikely due to the fact the we have WoB that we haven't seen Voidbinding.  Although, knowing Brandon, that doesn't mean we haven't seen a Voidbinder.  And that would very much explain Shallan's father's surviving the super-potent Blackbane...

Yes exactly. He's clearly something more than human at that point.

I had forgotten Voidbinding was something different than Voidbringer. That makes sense for what's happening.

He may be, like, resisting the change? Like not saying the void-oaths to progress or something, which is why we don't see him ever actually Voidbind.

[Krandacth]

On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 2:19 PM, Yata said:

I don't think it's how the process works (I have quite the opposite idea XD).

@Yata I forgot to ask before: What is your idea for how this works? How is it opposite?  Inquiring minds want to know  (and it would definitely fall under the title of the thread).

[Yata he/him]

Sure, I didn't post it because I don't want to change Topic's couse.

Anyway I think there isn't a real influence between Surgebinder's Indentity and Spren's one. Simply the Surgebinder works as Spren's anchor in the Physical Realm and allows the Spren to recover fractions of his/her former self.

This mean that while the KR progresses with his oaths and the Bond become stronger the Spren's mind is pulled more and more in the physical and the Spren itself become its true Self (for example: Syl was a complete being with personality, memories and ecc.... that lived in the Cognitive, as Kal discovers new oaths...Syl returns more her true self)

 

[Krandacth]

@Yata Our theories seem to be based on the same hard evidence, there's just  more conjecture in mine. Yours doesn't take into account the particular phrasing of the WoB about what spren get from the Bond (I.e. What they get is "mostly" physical manifestation, memory and personality), but that one word is hardly evidence that they get more.

It is good conjecture-fodder though

Edit: For example, it has been postulated in other threads recently that honourblades allow superior stormlight efficiency for heralds than they do for other weilders, and maybe even moreso than does the Nahel Bond. This fits with my theory, as follows:

If Honorblades were designed for specific individuals, then they would be perfect stormlight conduits for those individuals. The spititwebs of other individuals, on the other hand, would not align nearly so well. Based on my theory, in fact, in which spren meet the human halfway, Honorblades are likely to be even less efficient than a First Ideal Bond for anyone other than their corresponding Herald, being unable to adapt at all.

On the other hand, even a Fifth Ideal Bond is unlikely to be as perfect a match as an Honorblade and its Herald, making Heralds stronger Surgebinders than full KRs.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Krandacth