[OB] My opinion on Amaram

[ICanDream]

He‘s bad. Not like in-world bad, but just a bad character.

In the Way of Kings, I loved to hate him. He came across as a guy who had hidden motivations and the like. In WoR, he was... bland. I thought he would turn him around in OB but nope. He just becomes flat out evil. No nuances there.

We already have a big bad with Odium. We don’t need another. IMO the thing that makes Oathbringer really suffer is the fact that it has become so detached from normal people, and everything becomes world-ending. We need character arcs about the individuals, not their abilities.

Anyway that was a tangent rant.

So what did you guys think of Amaram?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Amaram is one of my favorite SA characters (and Cosmere characters in general). The main problem with him as a character, is that Brandon didn´t show enough of him. You can piece together his character with hints in the text, but he doesn´t get the page-time he needs. I think this is the reason for why he is disliked. A lot of people either just thinks he is a bad human being, or a flat out bad, bland character. I disagree with both of those statements, and here is why (essay incoming):

First thing to understand about Amaram is that he is a religious fanatic. The fact that he is part of the Sons of Honor is proof enough of this. The things he does for that organisation (betraying Kaladin and planning to bring back the Voidbringers) are obviously very bad things. Amaram goes through with this because he believes it will bring the best possible end result, which, in his world, appears to be a mass conversion to the Vorin church. We, as readers, see that this is a pretty bad idea, but Amaram doesn´t. He is consumed by his religion, and probably wants to "save" the world by saving the souls of the people/helping them get to the Tranquiline Halls, and turn their focus back to the Almighty. I can see why this would appeal to him, considering how religious he apparently is. From his point of view, mass conversion is a good thing. A lot of people disagree with this worldview. I disagree with it. But we can not really call someone evil just because their ideal world is different from ours.

The other major thing about Amaram is his thirst for glory. He wants to be a hero, and he wants to save the world. He wants to be the good guy. He mentions how his mother raised him to be the best soldier in the history of Alethkar. It does sound like he had lofty ideals to achieve from a young age, placed on him by his mother. That might explain where his thirst for glory comes from. 

Finally, we have his guilt. The guilt is what eventually breaks Amaram. He hates the things he has done. He says so time and time again. He hints that Restares had to talk him into killing Kaladins men. He spares Kaladin because of his guilt. He feels bad about the casualties during the Desolation he has tried to cause. Partially, this hurts him because he is a good person, deep down. He is kind to his servants, he tries to help Tien and calm down his family, he is known for being a nice person to most people. He lapses sometimes, and hides it, because he is afraid that his reputation will fall, and thus, his (and his mothers) dreams of glory. I think those dreams are another reason for Amarams guilt. He knows that he has failed. That he isn´t the hero he wants to be. 

And then, Odium comes. Somehow, Odium manages to show Amaram that the Heralds lied, and that the Almighty is dead. He shows Amaram that his religion is a lie. The only thing Amaram had to justify his actions, his religion, is now gone. He breaks down, just like Dalinar does after killing Evi. He gets the same offer as Dalinar. Odium promises to take away his guilt. Not every human being is as strong as Dalinar. Actually, most people probably aren´t. Amaram isn´t. He joins Odium, to get rid of his pain. Then he eats a gemstone, and gets digestive problems (also known as Yelig-nar), before he is finally headshot by Rock. In-world, Amaram will most likely be remembered as the despicable scumbag who betrayed mankind and got what he deserved. That is a very tragic fate, considering that he started out as a man who tried to follow his mothers wishes, and do good for humanity. 

That is how I see Amarams character, anyway.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[fievelgoespostal]

Excellent post Toaster

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Amaram's retort against Dalinar was brilliant in book.

Quote

“I respect you greatly, Brightlord,” Amaram said. “Your life has been one of grand accomplishment, and you have spent it seeking the good of Alethkar. But you—and take this with the respect I intend—are a hypocrite.
“You stand where you do because of a brutal determination to do what had to be done. It is because of that trail of corpses that you have the luxury to uphold some lofty, nebulous code. Well, it might make you feel better about your past, but morality is not a thing you can simply doff to put on the helm of battle, then put back on when you’re done with the slaughter.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer.”

No nuance? I have to say that Oathbringer has its flaws, but unnuanced evil is not one of them. There isn't an antagonist in the joint without a good reason to do what they do - and in many cases, good reason to view themselves as the hero of their own story. Amaram is right on with his critique - if we saw no internal monologue from Dalinar, he'd be seen as MUCH worse. The only difference, the difference that matters enough to make one the antagonist? One chose journey before destination, the other chose the destination first.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Stormfather-in-Law

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The main problem with him as a character, is that Brandon didn´t show enough of him. You can piece together his character with hints in the text, but he doesn´t get the page-time he needs.

This is absolutely correct and also a damnation shame, mostly because Amaram needs to work as a villain. Without the page time he looks one-dimensional and bland. Brandon being cagey with his backstory hurt Amaram, and as he gets more pages (flashbacks exclusively, of course) I expect I'll like his character more. Until then...

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram goes through with this because he believes it will bring the best possible end result, which, in his world, appears to be a mass conversion to the Vorin church. We, as readers, see that this is a pretty bad idea, but Amaram doesn´t. He is consumed by his religion, and probably wants to "save" the world by saving the souls of the people/helping them get to the Tranquiline Halls/, and turn their focus back to the Almighty. I can see why this would appeal to him, considering how religious he apparently is. In his world, mass conversion is a good thing.

I would like to believe this is true, and it sounds plausible enough, but Brandon's aforementioned caginess means that the juiciest bits have yet to be revealed. Namely: Gavilar. He was a member of the Sons of Honor, and on the road to being a Bondsmith concurrently with Dalinar. His death is the pivot that starts our main story and there are so many questions left unanswered. Amaram suffers from these unanswered questions, as we would have appreciated him as more than the Big Bad, specifically Kaladin's Big Bad.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And then, Odium comes. Somehow, Odium manages to show Amaram that the Heralds lied, and that the Almighty is dead. He shows Amaram that his religion is a lie. The only thing Amaram had to justify his actions, his religion, is now gone. He breaks down, just like Dalinar does after killing Evi. He gets the same offer as Dalinar. Odium promises to take away his guilt. Not every human being is as strong as Dalinar. Actually, most people probably aren´t. Amaram isn´t. He joins Odium, to get rid of his pain.

Here's the thing: while I'm willing to accept betrayal from Moash due to his earned contempt for the species, Amaram doesn't get the same leeway. He was supposed to be the hero and failing doesn't mean you get to turn traitor. This was more that was offscreen, but if Amaram knows Honor is dead, how does he think it happened? I doubt Odium would tell him but it seems pretty obvious, especially to us.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In-world, Amaram will most likely be remembered as the despicable scumbag who betrayed mankind and got what he deserved. That is a very tragic fate, considering that he started out as a man who tried to follow his mothers wishes, and do good for humanity. 

He's in-world Benedict Arnold. I vote to christen a breakfast dish Eggs Amaram. It is a base of lavis flatbread, a slice of cured pork, poached chicken's egg (what a delicacy), covered in pork gravy. Serve with yellow wine in the late morning.

48 minutes ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Amaram is right on with his critique - if we saw no internal monologue from Dalinar, he'd be seen as MUCH worse. The only difference, the difference that matters enough to make one the antagonist? One chose journey before destination, the other chose the destination first.

At yet I don't think Amaram was nuanced enough, mostly due to lack of screen time. This line was like a breath of fresh air but it was too little too late. When reading it felt more like a deserved shot at Dalinar than justification for himself. This moment was about Dalinar and his hypocrisies. Even when delivering a devastating blow we're left with a moment that services our main character more than Amaram, who is left looking petulant and resentful of Dalinar's success.

 

As for my own thoughts on Amaram, I mostly agree with @ICanDream. He hit the points I would have hit quite nicely. The most galling part about Amaram's character came at Thaylen City when he succumbed to Odium. It was epic in the moment, but it subsumed the character completely. He's always been Kaladin's villain and I was really hoping I could see him as more than that. Brandon did a little bit in WoR but I wasn't satisfied by what came in OB. I'm talking myself into more Amaram scenes in flashbacks due to his proximity to Gavilar, but I'm not holding my breath that he'll get the screentime he needed to become a true villain. He needed the amount of attention Sadeas commanded in the previous two books to accomplish that, and it turns out Taravangian was the one to take over for Sadeas. He'll probably carry the role for another two books, or until the Diagram collapses around him, but I wish Amaram were more of the villain in this book. This was his moment, his chance to justify himself and endear him to the readers as a villain convinced of his own righteousness. It never really happened for me, but @Toaster Retribution's essay I responded to was the first thing I've seen that persuades me to reevaluate Amaram rather than simply curse his name. I hoped Amaram would be the next Sadeas but instead Moash is the next Amaram.

[Llarimar he/him]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And then, Odium comes. Somehow, Odium manages to show Amaram that the Heralds lied, and that the Almighty is dead. He shows Amaram that his religion is a lie. The only thing Amaram had to justify his actions, his religion, is now gone. He breaks down, just like Dalinar does after killing Evi.

This is actually where Amaram's storyline started going wrong for me.  I liked him as a character through much of WoK and WoR - he was involved with so many well-planned plot twists - the murder of Kaladin's men, the death of Shallan's brother, being a member of the Sons of Honor and a close friend of Gavilar.  All of those things were very surprising, and crafted him into a unique, unexpected, third-party - someone who didn't closely align with anyone else.  I also thought from the beginning that Kaladin was overly harsh with Amaram - yes, it was brutal to murder Kaladin's men, but it wasn't the worst thing someone has done in the books and Amaram had pretty justified reasons for doing it (in his mind).  I was expecting more sympathy for Amaram moving forward - perhaps not a redemption storyline, but definitely further development and new plot threads for his character, and a greater understanding of his motives and goals.

However, when he aligned himself with Odium, Amaram just really became flat and uninteresting to me - a paranoid, comic book villain, especially after he swallowed the gemstone and became a raging monster.  This was one of my main problems with OB - many of the character threads were underused and disappointing.  The plotlines in OB for Adolin's murder of Sadeas, Shallan's multiple personalities, the Kaladin-Shallan romance and the storyline for Amaram were almost counterproductive, I thought, because of how much they detracted from the momentum without really going anywhere.  

For some reason I relate Amaram with Moash, because both of them betrayed Kaladin, and both have "fallen from grace" over the course of the books.  When Amaram aligned with Odium, he seemed to meld with Moash even more in my mind, because I think Moash is going to eventually become a major antagonist and a servant of Odium - which is what happened to Amaram at the end of OB before he abruptly died.  I can almost see Brandon saying, "Well, we've got two Kaladin-enemies who have joined Odium... so might as well get rid of one of them," instead of further developing Amaram as a unique and separate character.  

I think it's very possible that Amaram will still be important moving forward as a posthumous character - someone that gradually becomes less of a villain and more understandable as they learn more about him (like the Lord Ruler in Mistborn).  

Edited January 10, 2018 by Llarimar

[ICanDream]

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram is one of my favorite SA characters (and Cosmere characters in general). The main problem with him as a character, is that Brandon didn´t show enough of him. You can piece together his character with hints in the text, but he doesn´t get the page-time he needs. I think this is the reason for why he is disliked. A lot of people either just thinks he is a bad human being, or a flat out bad, bland character. I disagree with both of those statements, and here is why (essay incoming):

First thing to understand about Amaram is that he is a religious fanatic. The fact that he is part of the Sons of Honor is proof enough of this. The things he does for that organisation (betraying Kaladin and planning to bring back the Voidbringers) are obviously very bad things. Amaram goes through with this because he believes it will bring the best possible end result, which, in his world, appears to be a mass conversion to the Vorin church. We, as readers, see that this is a pretty bad idea, but Amaram doesn´t. He is consumed by his religion, and probably wants to "save" the world by saving the souls of the people/helping them get to the Tranquiline Halls/, and turn their focus back to the Almighty. I can see why this would appeal to him, considering how religious he apparently is. In his world, mass conversion is a good thing. A lot of people disagree with this worldview. I disagree with it. But we can not really call someone evil just because their ideal world is different from ours.

The other major thing about Amaram is his thirst for glory. He wants to be a hero, and he wants to save the world. He wants to be the good guy. He mentions how his mother raised him to be the best soldier in the history of Alethkar. It does sound like he had lofty ideals to achieve from a young age, placed on him by his mother. That might explain where his thirst for glory comes from. 

Finally, we have his guilt. The guilt is what eventually breaks Amaram. He hates the things he has done. he says so time and time again. he hints that Restares had to talk him into killing Kaladins men. He spares Kaladin because of his guilt. He feels bad about the casualties during the Desolation he has tried to cause. Partially, this hurts him because he is a good person, deep down. He is kind to his servants, he tries to help Tien and calm down his family, he is known for being a nice person to most people. He lapses sometimes, and hides it, because he is afraid that his reputation will fall, and thus, his (and his mothers) dreams of glory. I think those dreams are another reason for Amarams guilt. He knows that he has failed. That he isn´t the hero he wants to be. 

And then, Odium comes. Somehow, Odium manages to show Amaram that the Heralds lied, and that the Almighty is dead. He shows Amaram that his religion is a lie. The only thing Amaram had to justify his actions, his religion, is now gone. He breaks down, just like Dalinar does after killing Evi. He gets the same offer as Dalinar. Odium promises to take away his guilt. Not every human being is as strong as Dalinar. Actually, most people probably aren´t. Amaram isn´t. He joins Odium, to get rid of his pain. Then he eats a gemstone, and gets digestive problems (also known as Yelig-nar), before he is finally headshot by Rock. In-world, Amaram will most likely be remembered as the despicable scumbag who betrayed mankind and got what he deserved. That is a very tragic fate, considering that he started out as a man who tried to follow his mothers wishes, and do good for humanity. 

That is how I see Amarams character, anyway.

 

Wow. Take an upvote, sir.

You may have changed my opinion on Amaram. I still dislike his Yelig-Nar decision and self, as I think that it detracts from his previous complexity, and he becomes simply evil. However, I now view his character from WoR as interesting and complete. Thank you.

[Isilel]

I was very disappointed by what we have seen of Amaram in OB, because he seemed to have hidden depths and was connected to intriguing mysteries, but in the end was used merely as a sop to Kaladin and his fans for not taking over the climax of a book _yet again_. And to make it all the more fan-servicy, Kholins also unexplicably and stupidly snub Amaram and turn him into a verbal punching-bag on his way out.  

I mean, Amaram had everything to become a religious fanatic put in a very interesting situation of dealing with a genuine prophet of his god (whose visions he knows are genuine, because of Gavilar), who is nevertheless straying into heresy. This could have tied into Vorin opposition to Dalinar, as well as Gavilar's mysterious and dubious doings prior to his death and into Sons of Honor. A very different type of antagonist, one of a kind not yet seen in SA. Instead... sigh.

I come back to this:

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467

i.e : "I also changed my mind to let Amaram live in the scene with the poison dart. Adolin killed off Sadeas instead."   And IMHO, this really shows. Amaram's story was finished and Sadeas's wasn't quite in Sanderson's mind, so one was used as a stand-in for the other in OB, without regard for the stark differences in character that they had previously exhibited.

That's the thing with minor characters - their vividness and hinted depth are largely a sleight of hand and when one is being kept on beyond his expiration date without any additional development, as in this case, the strings begin to show quite obviously.

In fact, I have just re-read WoK and WoR and there has always been the case of "Schrödinger's Amaram", it only became impossible to overlook in OB.

I.e.:

Amaram is a good general. Everybody _says_ so. Except that Kal needs to be the hero while in his army, so everything that we actually _see_ shows that Amaram was actually pretty bad the whole time. Lack of discipline of his army in combat, frequent battles that never led to any kind of resolutions, high losses, wounded soldiers not being fetched from the field, accepting too young, under-sized recruits  and throwing them into the grinder, etc., etc. And it isn't even "evil, but efficient", like Sades's bridges. It is just incompetence, when seen objectively. About the only thing that was decent about his leadership was a relatively orderly and law-abiding camp.

Amaram is a dear old friend of Dalinar's. They say so in WoR. You'd think that we'd have seen him in Dalinar's flashbacks in this role, then. Serving under him during the wars with the Vedens and Herdazians, maybe. Nope. Etc, etc.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Isilel

[Fulminato he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

I come back to this:

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467

i.e : "I also changed my mind to let Amaram live in the scene with the poison dart. Adolin killed off Sadeas instead."   And IMHO, this really shows. Amaram's story was finished and Sadeas's wasn't quite in Sanderson's mind, so one was used as a stand-in for the other in OB, without regard to the stark differences in character that they had previously exhibited.

That's the thing with minor characters - their vividness and hinted depth is largely a sleight of hand and when one is being kept beyond his expiration date without any additional development, as in this case, the strings begin to show quite obviously.

In fact, I have just re-read WoK and WoR and there has always been the case of "Schrödinger's Amaram", it only became impossible to overlook in OB.

I.e.:

Amaram is a good general. Everybody _says_ so. Except that Kal needs to be the hero while in his army, so everything that we actually _see_ shows that Amaram was actually pretty bad the whole time. Lack of discipline of his army in combat, frequent battles that never led to any kind of resolutions, high losses, wounded soldiers not being fetched from the field, accepting too young, under-sized recruits  and throwing them into the grinder, etc., etc. And it isn't even "evil, but efficient", like Sades's bridges. It is just incompetence, when seen objectively. About the only thing that was decent about his leadership was a relatively orderly and law-abiding camp.

Amaram is a dear old friend of Dalinar's. They say so in WoR. You'd think that we have seen him in Dalinar's flashbacks in this role, then. Serving under him during the wars with the Vedens and Herdazians, maybe. Nope. Etc, etc.

 

- so in the original plan was saedas sworn to odium and die in the thaylen city battle. in WoR there is a couple o reference of him addicted (like dalinar before evi death) to the trill. for me was better in the original plan, but no double sword figth in this case...

- amaram army was formed by untrained and mediocre soldier, the better bach were send to fight in the shattered plains, i don't know if we can gauge his ability to manage and run an army, but in WoR (iirc) is explicit state the efficency of saedas army (and he was one of the best to gem hunting game) was half merit of amaram training.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Fulminato

[Isilel]

On 10.1.2018 at 9:22 PM, Fulminato said:

- so in the original plan was saedas sworn to odium and die in the thaylen city battle. in WoR there is a couple o reference of him addicted (like dalinar before evi death) to the trill. for me was better in the original plan, but no double sword figth in this case...

Well, I doubt that OB had already been planned in such detail by the time the change was made, even though it must have come relatively late in the process of writing WoR, as Iyatil's attempt at Amaram was already planned and Szeth's revival has been fitted rather awkwardly (IMHO) onto what feels like a lovingly polished final fight with a mortal outcome. And the 3rd book was originally supposed to be Szeth's posthumous flashback book anyway, tentatively named "Stones Unhallowed" (IIRC). But yes, I imagine that some idea of Dalinar and Sadeas eventually dealing with the Thrill and other issues in the opposite ways and the contrast between their past and current selves must have been playing in Sanderson's mind. And it is deliciously ironic that Dalinar has been doing during the series what young Sadeas had repeatedly and futilely urged him to do in the past, and the old Sadeas absolutely hated it when his "dear old friend" started to follow his past advice at long, long last... So yea, there could have been some interesting stuff there.

As to the double sword fight, IMHO it was both nonsensical and underwhelming, so missing it would have been an improvement. Nale will demonstrate the proper dual-sharding to us in a much more exciting manner at some point, I am sure.

 

Quote

- amaram army was formed by untrained and mediocre soldier, the better bach were send to fight in the shattered plains, i don't know if we can gauge his ability to manage and run an army, but in WoR (iirc) is explicit state the efficency of saedas army (and he was one of the best to gem hunting game) was half merit of amaram training.

Yea, that's what they _tell_ us in OB, but what was shown from Cenn's and  Kal's PoVs was very different. First of all, what kind of excuse is it that Amaram didn't have "good" soldiers? He was in charge of that army for about 5 years - more than enough time to form it to his standards, even sending some soldiers to Sadeas. If proper institutional culture had been established, then he could have easily handled the steady influx of new recruits, particularly since he was fighting third-rate opponents.  Historically, Roman legions for instance, sometimes had to be raised and trained in a couple of months. Spear was such a popular weapon for such a long time because it was fairly easy and quick to learn to use effectively. Cenn had been trained for _3 months_ - that was very decent in historical context. And Kal has been a star soldier for almost 4 years without being sent off to the Shattered Plains. His term of enlistment was almost over when he killed the Shardbearer, so it is untrue that no good soldiers could have  been retained.

But the truth is that Amaram's army had systemic problems, which were entirely his fault and reveal him as a bad general, even though the books try to tell us that he was good. I.e.:

Spearmen effectiveness very much depends on their ability to remain in formation and defend each other. As such, widespread practices such as blatantly sacrificing the weaker members of the squad are corrosive, since soldiers can't depend on or trust each other. And anybody can become "weak" at any time, through injury, sickness, etc. Not to mention that the re-forming necessary to set up sacrificial lambs would be somewhat tricky and often give the enemy a real opening. A good general would stomp on this hard.

His army can never stay in formation even in the initial phase of an engagement. This is very bad for effectiveness of spearmen - and the army largely consisted of them. Again, a good general would have enforced this. I know that he didn't have the best officers, but he could have promoted hungry, low-level lighteyes who'd follow his instructions instead. That's what Dalinar has always done and he was allegedly Amaram's example.

Surgeons not evacuating darkeyed wounded from the field even though they had resources to do so - there is a reason that most professionally organized armies attempted to care for wounded soldiers - they were more ready to fight on in a pinch and take injuries, if they had  hope that they'd be cared for. And since, unlike during the majority of RL human history, Rosharans know their aseptics and antiseptics, they even have a pretty good chance of healing many of the wounded. In most cases doing so would be cheaper than recruiting and training a replacement, particularly since soldiers who have been in battles, blooded troops are worth much more than newbies.

The stuff with recruiting young boys and putting them in the front line is another example of mismanagement. You don't need to be a humanitarian to see that it is wholly counter-productive. In England when levies were called up the lowest age was 15, Romans began their military service at 17. Also worth noting that when former messenger _boys_ were uselessly and wastefully put into the ranks, Amaram's army still had messenger _men_. Kal interracted with one. Ditto Kal, a trained surgeon's apprentice being put into the ranks. Despite there being a lot of talk of how valuable surgeon's skills are to the army. Etc.

Frequent battles with high losses that never led to any decisive resolution also suggest that Amaram was weak strategically. Particularly since all the best commanders _were_ at the Shattered Plains, so he had to contend with third-raters.

It is the same with Amaram supposedly being such a good friend of Dalinar and well-known to Adolin, who was initially glad to see him, but only appearing as a bit flunky of Sadeas in one flashback, with no particular connection to Dalinar even hinted at. So, when could he have possibly become friends with Dalinar? Not during his alcoholic phase, certainly. And after that they were separated geographically.

Ditto Amaram being such a devoted Vorin and telling Adolin that it was time for him to settle down... when he was unmarried himself at the same age as Jasnah the heretic!

Ditto, Amaram being at odds with Kholins in OB, losing his faith and flipping to Odium... but never flinging Gavilar's damning secrets in their faces.

It is now obvious to me that Amaram could never stand scrutiny - he was intended to kick things off for the protagonists, be a foil to them, introduce a hint of intriguing secrets, but not be a character in his own right, with any sort of internal consistency, which even minor characters can and should have. And no, all of this couldn't be explained by him being very good at pretending, because most of it was out in the open. His "Schrödinger's Cat" nature became clear when he overstayed his welcome just so Kal could finally have a guilt-free kill on somebody who had hurt him in the past .

Edited January 12, 2018 by Isilel