The Order of Arrivals on Roshar: Human/Shard/Other

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I was thinking, maybe it was just Honor and Cultivation relaxing and playing house with the spren, Parshendi, and possibly Aimians as well.

 

And then Odium destroyed/captured the original homeworld of Roshar's humans (the Tranquiline Halls), and brought them to Roshar to use as leverage against Honor and Cultivation, towards his goal of their eventual deaths and Splintering.  It probably wouldn't have mattered if H&C didn't want humans on Roshar, if it went against the Intent of their shards to abandon/ignore the humans.

“There hasn’t been peace since the Tranquiline Halls,” Adolin said immediately. “‘Man’s life on Roshar is conflict.’” It was a quotation from The Arguments.

Scholars laughed at all these ideas. Actual historical accounts—the ones she could find quickly—were contradictory. Were the Voidbringers the denizens of Damnation? If so, wouldn’t Damnation now be empty, as the Voidbringers had conquered the Tranquiline Halls and cast out mankind to Roshar?

IT DOES NOT MATTER. YOU WERE TOO SLOW. YOU FAILED. THE EVERSTORM IS HERE, AND THE SPREN OF THE ENEMY COME TO INHABIT THE ANCIENT ONES. IT IS OVER. YOU HAVE LOST.

In a way, the humans are more the villains of the story than the Parshendi.

 

Also, I feel like I saw a direct quote saying that Odium came to Roshar a while after H&P, but all I could find just now were secondary implications.  There was also some talk about how Braize is where Odium has currently settled, so does that make Braize the Tranquiline Halls?

 

Edit: Changed the topic title to be more in line with what I was really wondering.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Cheese Ninja

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I'll try and look up direct links when I have a little more time but most of this has been discussed on other threads.

 

Edit: This thread talks about humans not being native to Roshar and what the tranqueline halls might be. It also contains a link to a previous thread by Rooster on the same topic.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I myself am a very firm supporter of the idea that humans migrated from Braize, then called the Tranquelline Halls, and settled on Roshar much to the ire of the Parshendi whose land and spren they stole. However, your version is different from mine in one respect– I believe that Cultivation and Honor were on Braize too, and were pushed out by Odium onto Roshar. The Parshendi/native Rosharan wildlife seemed to have developed without H&C's influence, as the Parshendi per WoB are of none of the three Shards. Roshar was probably actually of Adonalsium, since we know he was on Roshar and left some of his power there as Adonspren. And since Kal is a "child of Honor" according to the Stormfather (not exact wording), humanity probably was created by H&C.

[Aleksiel]

I put my spheres on Braize being Damnation and not the Tranquiline Halls

 

 

Damnation, known as Braize in the old songs

from WoR

 

There haven't always been people on Roshar. This isn't the same, but pretty much confirms it:

 

 

Q:  Were there Desolations before there were humans on Roshar?
A:  No.

source

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I put my spheres on Braize being Damnation and not the Tranquiline Halls.

 I am aware of that quote. That doesn't say that Damnation and the Halls can't just be the same place at different time periods, however, and that is what I am proposing here.

[Greywatch she/her]

I had thought that all humans in the Cosmere are immigrated from Yolen? (I need to look up a WoB, I'm not sure of that.)

[Aleksiel]

 I am aware of that quote. That doesn't say that Damnation and the Halls can't just be the same place at different time periods, however, and that is what I am proposing here.

 

Well, the folklore/religion shows them as two separate places. I wasn't trying to disprove your post as I didn't read it before posting, I just provided a relevant quote on topic. What makes you think Braize used to be the Tranquiline Halls?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I had thought that all humans in the Cosmere are immigrated from Yolen? (I need to look up a WoB, I'm not sure of that.)

Scadrians, at the very least, were created by Ruin and Preservation. While there likely was some immigration from Yolen, we have been given no WoB on the subject.

Edit: @Aleksiel

Well, it seems to be a fairly safe assumption that humans are non-native, so I won't bother to explain that part. That leaves the question of precisely where the Halls are. We know there are three planets in Greater Roshar home to sentient life: Braize, Ashyn, Roshar. Due to urgency, the refugees probably went to someplace close, so the Halls are very likely to be one of the two planets in the same system. Ashyn already has the Silence Divine on it, and Brandon wants the SA to stand on its own, so I doubt Ashyn is the one. Plus, Ashyn still has people on it, so the claims of being "driven from the Halls" wouldn't apply, and there doesn't seem to be anything about magical diseases in mythology anyways. That leaves Braize. Braize is a pretty strong candidate: for one, it is exactly like Odium to conquer someone's homeland and turn it into a living hell, then bring the people who escaped his wrath back to be tortured in the ruins of their own homes. And it meshes well with the myths of humanity fighting to reclaim their Halls, since the Rosharans have been fighting Odium, the conquerer of that planet, all along.

Edited May 8, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Meg]

I am aware of that quote. That doesn't say that Damnation and the Halls can't just be the same place at different time periods, however, and that is what I am proposing here.

Do you mean that Braize was the Tranquiline Halls until Odium forced mankind on Roshar and then turned to Damnation?

 

I had thought that all humans in the Cosmere are immigrated from Yolen? (I need to look up a WoB, I'm not sure of that.)

As Porridge already said the Scadrians were made by Ruin and Preservation, but Ruin and Preservation created the humans on Scadrial after 'a model of humans' (for the lack of knowing a better wording) from somewhere else. (Also I apologizes for not giving a reference, but I'm quite sure, I've got this right.)

So the Scadrians were not really a unique fabrication of Preservation and Ruin. This was, where I wanted to hint at. The article on the Coppermind says that "Preservation's greatest wish was to create sentient life, humans patterned after the other humans Ati and Leras had once known." I'd think those humans have been from Yolen, so the circle is closed.

I for myself have the totally baseless idea that Damnation isn't a physical place, but -- I barely dare say it -- it's Braize's part of the Cognitive Realm.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Do you mean that Braize was the Tranquiline Halls until Odium forced mankind on Roshar and then turned to Damnation?

. Exactly.

[Numb]

It could be that Braize is both Damnation and The Tranquiline Halls. Damnation being the current stage of Braize with Odium residing and The Tranquiline Halls being the potential state of Braize with Odium defeated. They continue their struggle not through being actual ghosts or some other plant but instead through the Spren that they bonded now gaining more knowledge and experience for the next battle. 

 

Not exactly perfect theory but I do think The Tranquiline Halls is more a construct developed to help give people hope in their sacrifices. Remember that the desolations destroy almost all the humans each time so as a person fighting in those it must be rather hard to justify why you are doing it. You'll all going to be wiped out eventually and then it will just repeat itself. 

 

edit: Although if enough people believe in an idea/concept will it manifest itself in the cognitive realm?

Edited May 9, 2014 by Numb

[CabbageHead he/him]

 Ashyn already has the Silence Divine on it, and Brandon wants the SA to stand on its own, so I doubt Ashyn is the one. Plus, Ashyn still has people on it, so the claims of being "driven from the Halls" wouldn't apply, and there doesn't seem to be anything about magical diseases in mythology anyways.

 

I'd actually lean more towards believing it was Ashyn rather than Braize. Maybe its the name "Silence Divine" making me think of somewhere tranquil. What little we know is that it is barren and sparsely populated, so the few people left could be those who didn't flee with Tanavast. I also find the little I've heard of the magic system there, to be not the same, but somewhat similar to what we know of the Nightwatcher's "Old Magic".

Edited May 11, 2014 by CabbageHead

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

The "Old Magic" isn't really a magic system at all however: it's just the Nightwatcher screwing around. And the mechanics are very different: iirc, the Silence Divine magic is from magical bacteria that give their host superpowers to help them survive.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I changed the title of the thread to better reflect what it was that I was really interested in.

 

Let's start with Adonalsium, I'm not sure whether to interpret Hoid's and Brandon's comments to mean that Adonalsium had some sort of direct influence on Roshar, or merely influenced it indirectly.

 

Could the Parshendi have been the result of the Adonalsium touching Roshar too strongly before the Shattering?  It seems unlikely that a race so humanlike could have developed under such alien conditions without any outside influence.  Possibly as either a side-effect or resulting from the same event that caused Adonalsium-type spren to develop on Roshar.

 

In this case, the Parshendi would have been more or less alone on Roshar until Cultivation and Honor came.  Would the Shards have brought either humans or Aimians with them?

 

I still think the majority of humans were forced by Odium to emigrate from Braize (then the Tranquiline Halls, currently Damnation) to Roshar, at which point the Heralds would have formed the Oathpact with Honor. 

 

In summary, I think the order was:

Parshendi develop on Roshar >> Honor and Cultivation settle there >> Odium kicks the humans off Braize and they move to Roshar  >> Odium visits by means of the Desolations

 

I have no idea about the Aimians.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I'm pretty sure the humans on the Tranquelline Halls were made/ruled over by H&C. After all, doesn't Kal get called Son of Honor or something along those lines? My order would be more like this.

1. Adonalsium makes Roshar, the Parshendi, all the rest of Roshar's wildlife, and then sends enormous death-dealing hypercanes of mass destruction to sweep periodically over the continent. Adonalsium is a jerk.

2. Adonalsium waltzes over to Yolen, makes humans, and gets himself Shattered. Adonalsium is also not very smart.

3. H&C go on their honeymoon together on Braize, creating humans, and bunnies, and flowers, and rainbows. *cue idyllic forest music*

4. Odium crashes the party. *cue slaughtering and bloodshed*

5. The newcomers steal the Parshendi's best lands in Shinovar. Then they steal their spren, too. Parshendi collectively decide to go all Darth Vader. *cue more bloodshed*

6. 4500 years before present, Heralds win Desolation. Nothing bad happened on Roshar ever again. Absolutely nothing.

[hoser he/him]

Beautiful and hilarious!  I would replace 5 and 6 with more detail.

I'm pretty sure the humans on the Tranquelline Halls were made/ruled over by H&C. After all, doesn't Kal get called Son of Honor or something along those lines? My order would be more like this.
1. Adonalsium makes Roshar, the Parshendi, all the rest of Roshar's wildlife, and then sends enormous death-dealing hypercanes of mass destruction to sweep periodically over the continent. Adonalsium is a jerk.
2. Adonalsium waltzes over to Yolen, makes humans, and gets himself Shattered. Adonalsium is also not very smart.
3. H&C go on their honeymoon together on Braize, creating humans, and bunnies, and flowers, and rainbows. *cue idyllic forest music*
4. Odium crashes the party. *cue slaughtering and bloodshed*
5. The newcomers steal the Parshendi's best lands in Shinovar. Then they steal their spren, too. Parshendi collectively decide to go all Darth Vader. *cue more bloodshed*
6. 4500 years before present, Heralds win Desolation. Nothing bad happened on Roshar ever again. Absolutely nothing.

4.1 H+C each pick out 5 Heralds of gender matching their own.  H makes the Oathpact w/them.  H+C invest them and give them swords.  Odium picks out a set of creatures that he invests and unmakes. 

5 H+C, the heralds and humans still lose, having to flee to Roshar.  New, smarter spren appear or are created.  H+C create Shinovar and/or the Dawncities.  The Nightwatcher practices the "old magic."

5.1 Odium and his unmade come to Roshar with periodic desolations. 

5.2 The new spren copy the Heralds and make surgebinders, who evolve into Radiants.  The "new magic".  Urithiru is created and there are 10 stable Silver Kingdoms.  *Cue golden age*

5.3 Odium makes spren that allow his team to control the Listeners. 

5.4 The heralds and/or Odium decide to change things up.  All but one of the Heralds stay on Roshar.  Odium works on currupting things more subtly.  O shatters H.  The Radiants quit, deliberately leaving behind certain remnants.  *cue spacy but disturbing atonal muzak*

6.1 Odium decides it's time/Taln finally breaks.  Spren start coming back.  *cue Everstorm*