Whose shades are they?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

OK, maybe I am dense. The shades in the Forests of Hell are definitely ex-humans, aren't they? And shades dissolve slowly, so there is no such thing as a primordial shade. When the Forescouts arrived the forests were full of shades. There is no mention of aboriginies or ruins in the novella. That raises a question. Whose shades are they?

[Honorless he/him]

Now that is an excellent question!

Speculations ahoy! I think @Lunamortheorized that the Forests of Hell was where people from the Homeland were conducting some secret research on Cognitive Shadows (...or was that about what the Evil was? Sorry, I forgot)

I think that kinda makes sense, the things that drives the Shades into hunting mode can be argued to be a bit random. Maybe they were experimenting on commanding Cognitive Shadows

Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Kinda like Awakeners researching Lifeless Commands

 

[Karger he/him]

My theories are more boring.  The shades do seem attracted to humans(even more ones who don't follow the rules).  It is possible that the "full of shades" belief is actually a misconception and that the shades were always enraged against the early human explorers who first met them.  Also fading does not necessarily imply they dissolve.  The fused go through long periods of "hibernation."  Perhaps shades did the same when no settlers were around.  Their behavior may be much like spren in that they "fade" when no one attracts them.  We have yet to see Threnody's CR.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Still what generated the first shades? If you say they were always there, why only on that continent? And if so, why are they human and human only?

[Quantus he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Still what generated the first shades? If you say they were always there, why only on that continent? And if so, why are they human and human only?

The Human bit I would default to assuming that it requires a sapient creature to possess the required minimum Investiture. That would imply that a Singer Shade would be possible, for example, should one make it to the planet.  

 

"What Generated the First Shades" will probably depend on several other lingering questions like "What is the Evil" or "What are the Deepest Ones".  Im assuming it's fallout of the battle with Ambition, but other than that it could be almost anything.  I personally think they are spren/seons/skaze that were created when Ambition was destroyed but not shoved in the Cognitive Realm the way D&D were later on.  

.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

The Human bit I would default to assuming that it requires a sapient creature to possess the required minimum Investiture. That would imply that a Singer Shade would be possible, for example, should one make it to the planet.  

Well, why are they not Sho Del, Dragon or Sleepless? If that is because these species never traveled to Threnody we need to imply that the shades were created locally. The why was te continent uninhabited?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

"What Generated the First Shades" will probably depend on several other lingering questions like "What is the Evil" or "What are the Deepest Ones".  Im assuming it's fallout of the battle with Ambition, but other than that it could be almost anything.  I personally think they are spren/seons/skaze that were created when Ambition was destroyed but not shoved in the Cognitive Realm the way D&D were later on. 

Then why do they still exist in mostly a recognizable form? It needs extreme numbers of them to explain the Forests of Hell.

15 hours ago, Karger said:

My theories are more boring.  The shades do seem attracted to humans(even more ones who don't follow the rules).  It is possible that the "full of shades" belief is actually a misconception and that the shades were always enraged against the early human explorers who first met them.

I am afraid this theory needs to be rejected. It fails to explain why the Forests of Hell are empty of animals.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid this theory needs to be rejected. It fails to explain why the Forests of Hell are empty of animals.

I assume because the animals could not follow the simple rules?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Just now, Karger said:

I assume because the animals could not follow the simple rules?

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

[Frustration he/him]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

Thousands of shadows over the course of decades or even centuries.

[Karger he/him]

29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I fact we are told exactly that. But we are talking about a while continent here and if you look at how many small predators there are in a forest, you cannot get that eefect with thousands of shadows. You need really large numbers.

To add to Frustration.  It is not a particularly large continent either.  Also a few humans can overhunt almost any animal to extinction within a really short amount of time.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Thousands of shadows over the course of decades or even centuries.

But the other side breeds. Yes, humans can with weapons hunt large animals, who breed slowly, into extinction. But something of rabbit size?

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But the other side breeds. Yes, humans can with weapons hunt large animals, who breed slowly, into extinction. But something of rabbit size?

All it takes is killing one more of them than are born every night.

It doesn't need to be instant, or alll of them, just enough that humans don't notice any more predators.

[BrightLord William]

On 26/09/2021 at 10:02 PM, Oltux72 said:

OK, maybe I am dense. The shades in the Forests of Hell are definitely ex-humans, aren't they? And shades dissolve slowly, so there is no such thing as a primordial shade. When the Forescouts arrived the forests were full of shades. There is no mention of aboriginies or ruins in the novella. That raises a question. Whose shades are they?

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

[That1Cellist he/him]

5 hours ago, BrightLord William said:

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

I mean, that would make sense. Threndonites who were not around for the splintering do not turn into shades, I think. This means the splintering is the cause. Nazh also talks about proper rights and rituals to become a shade. If people automatically become shades when they die, then that must mean all of the people must become invested upon death, or they were already invested and something strange happens when they die. We can assume that the splintering caused a large amount of investiture to get thrown around, because the evil exits, the shades exist, and the deepest ones exist. Could some of the shades be animals? If humans turn into shades upon death, then why not animals? It would also explain why some shades seem more aware than others. Maybe the deepest ones are humans who went through the proper rituals, and kept all of their sentience, knowledge, and humanity.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 25.8.2022 at 11:20 AM, BrightLord William said:

I think the clash between odoim and ambition could have caused the population to die. Maybe the population was all invested like breath but they relied on it to live? 

The timing makes no sense. That clash was thousands of years ago by this time. In that case almost all Shades would have to be thousands of years old, because the Forest of Hell was settled only recently. But old Shades are an exception.

[Elder]

My question:  are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture?  Or Odium’s?  
 

We know that Odium was “Weakened by his battles in the past,” (Rhythm of War, pg 1190).  On the other hand, in Arcanum Unbounded, they refer to big chunks of Ambition being ripped up.  

Violent ghosts who frenzy on bloodshed sound much more hateful than ambitious to me.  Maybe Odium expended investiture to hurt Ambition there, but only just enough to invest the Forests of Hell, while Ambition’s mortal wound created the Evil that overtook the mainland.

Or maybe it’s all Ambition but it’s lost its intent.

 

as for the original shades, what if originally it was just hyper-violent investiture gaining rudimentary intelligence, but it started taking the form of the people it killed, making cognitive shadows.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Elder

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

My question:  are the shades manifestations on Ambition’s investiture?  Or Odium’s?  

My theory, such as it is, is that The Evil is a Splinter of the combined chunks of Ambition and Odium:

Coppermind:

Spoiler

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium. These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards.

I also think the nature of the clash created the first Shades from people who died in the cataclysm and that the nature of the shades means that people killed by Shades can become a Shade (though that is unlikely to be the only means of creating a Shade - due to Nazh's comment in Secret History).

Spoiler

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

So, I guess after all that, I would say that, I think a Shade is a cognitive shadow of a person that has been tainted by the combination of Ambition's and Odium's remnant Splinter(s).

[Elder]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

My theory, such as it is, is that The Evil is a Splinter of the combined chunks of Ambition and Odium:

Coppermind:

  Hide contents

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium. These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards.

I also think the nature of the clash created the first Shades from people who died in the cataclysm and that the nature of the shades means that people killed by Shades can become a Shade (though that is unlikely to be the only means of creating a Shade - due to Nazh's comment in Secret History).

  Hide contents

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

So, I guess after all that, I would say that, I think a Shade is a cognitive shadow of a person that has been tainted by the combination of Ambition's and Odium's remnant Splinter(s).

Maybe originally Threnodites became cognitive shadows deliberately, with all the ritual and tradition, etc. Their dead revered.   then things went to (the forests of) hell.

The story also mentions the “deepest ones.”  Those might have something to do with it too.  Probably not theFused.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Elder

[Chandlerhimself]

The shades don't have to be from the forests. Cognitive shadows can move just like people. They could be from the main land and just migrated there. Perhaps there is something in the forests that attracts them. The shades are drawn to something in the forests and that is why they are there. 

 

Another possibility is that the evil of the main land chased them off and most settled in the forests of hell. Perhaps it is similar to the situation in Elantris where the farther they get away from their area the weaker they get and the less intelligent they become. If the evil chased them off maybe the forests of hell are the closest place they can settle down. 

 

We still have no idea, but hopefully it is explained in the future. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 26.5.2023 at 2:30 AM, Chandlerhimself said:

Another possibility is that the evil of the main land chased them off and most settled in the forests of hell. Perhaps it is similar to the situation in Elantris where the farther they get away from their area the weaker they get and the less intelligent they become. If the evil chased them off maybe the forests of hell are the closest place they can settle down.

If that were the case the forescouts would have expected to meet Shades.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

They kind of remind me of the Firhotten on Aether of night. While I know that Aether of Night is not canon and is not completely Cosmere correct, the point I’m making is that the forgott act as “agents”of a shard. Could the shades also be acting as “agents” of a shard?

[Firesong she/her]

Highly doubt it, they are created due to being infused with a fragment of a dead Shard. I don't think they are the direct agents of any Shard. 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

We speculate that they are fragments of Ambition right? Do we know that?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Highly doubt it, they are created due to being infused with a fragment of a dead Shard. I don't think they are the direct agents of any Shard. 

The bolded part is theory, not confirmed (unless you have a source).

1 hour ago, WitIsThe Best said:

We speculate that they are fragments of Ambition right? Do we know that?

We do not know that. Khriss speculated in Threnody Essay that they were Cognitive Shadows that received the extra investiture necessary to become a Cognitive Shadow because of ambient investiture on the planet in the wake of the fight with Ambition, Odium and Mercy (and Ambition did not die there - she died elsewhere)

Spoiler

Odium gained the upper hand and mortally wounded Ambition by tearing off chunks of her power, which altered the people of Threnody as well as the planets in the system. Ambition managed to escape the system, but she was killed and Splintered in another location despite fighting back.

So, the only really confirmed thing is that the Shades are some type of Cognitive Shadow and that a non-Shade Cognitive Shadow that arrives at Threnody would not become a Shade themselves. Exactly why and how it happens is still (informed) speculation. 

[Firesong she/her]

Stormlight spoilers

Spoiler

I do wonder what Sja-Anat has to do with Ambition, Brandon purposely avoided the question when asked, and only answered once they didn't let him weasel his way out, and basically was like " You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!"

Very, very interesting. And wonder why they were asking that, I can't think of any obvious correlations off the top of my head. Except maybe her wanting to be a god and having a black, misty body with contrasting eyes. But I feel that the eyes have to do more with Vev and its associations rather than with Shades.